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View Full Version : What does cheese look like for Exalted?



Fortuna
2010-04-01, 01:36 AM
I've played D&D for a while now, and I know stinky cheese when I see it. I also know some of the more famous examples: Pun-Pun, the Wish and the Word, etc.

But what is there in Exalted? I'm no powergamer, but I like to know what to look out for.

BobVosh
2010-04-01, 01:39 AM
Anything that gives motes back, especially if it is in conjunction with other charms.

Some sorceries can be silly powerful. Some martial arts can be silly powerful.

The Demented One
2010-04-01, 01:56 AM
Basically, there's two kinds of "optimized" in Exalted. There's stuff that makes you absolutely godly in combat–Heavenly Guardian Defense, Seven Shadow Evasion, Flow Like Blood. This is intentional, and is kinda the point of the game.

Then there's stuff that's flat out mechanically broken, in the sense that it doesn't work with the mechanics or setting of the game, at all. Notorious examples include Void Avatar Prana, almost all of the Sidereal Martial Arts in Scroll of the Monk, and literally all the Solar charms in Dreams of the First Age (most egregiously Zeal). These are baaad broken, and will be getting errata soon-ish.

Sophismata
2010-04-01, 01:56 AM
Stacking speed. Abilities that mess with enemy initiative.

There are many other ways to break combat (relative to the other players), but I wouldn't classify them as cheesy, to be honest.

Fortuna
2010-04-01, 02:04 AM
Then there's stuff that's flat out mechanically broken, in the sense that it doesn't work with the mechanics or setting of the game, at all. Notorious examples include Void Avatar Prana, almost all of the Sidereal Martial Arts in Scroll of the Monk, and literally all the Solar charms in Dreams of the First Age (most egregiously Zeal). These are baaad broken, and will be getting errata soon-ish.

That makes sense. But what, exactly, is baaad broken? Can you give me an example or three?

Kylarra
2010-04-01, 02:08 AM
Stacking jade hearthstone bracers with a jade weapon to get speed 2 attacks.

Tavar
2010-04-01, 02:11 AM
The game has the basic premise that if an unstoppable force and an immovable object meet, the immovable object wins. Zeal breaks this, and does it baaaadddd. I don't own the book, and have never seen the charm, just heard it discussed, but, well, you know how in DnD we joke that Pun-Pun has the ability Win: Pun-Pun wins the Game? Well, Zeal apparently is that ability.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 05:54 AM
Stacking jade hearthstone bracers with a jade weapon to get speed 2 attacks.

Which is errata'd, as no effect can reduce Speed below 3 unless explicitly mentioned.

Also, that's a good reason to use the alternate jade rules in Oadenol's Complex, where none of the jade weapons have a bonus to Speed.

Tengu_temp
2010-04-01, 06:37 AM
Boosting your strength high enough that you can wield a Great Daiklave in one hand and holding GD-level Glorious Solar Saber in offhand with all points put into defense to grant you sick Parry DV is a classic example of Exalted cheese.

Starting with one virtue at 3, another at 4 and the other two at 1 means that you start with 7 Willpower at no BP cost whatsoever, with the side effect of being two of these:
Heartless monster.
Whiny bitch.
Hot-head with no patience.
Utter coward.
Since many players ignore the non-mechanical effect of playing a character like that, it tends to leave a bad taste in many ST's mouths.


The game has the basic premise that if an unstoppable force and an immovable object meet, the immovable object wins. Zeal breaks this, and does it baaaadddd. I don't own the book, and have never seen the charm, just heard it discussed, but, well, you know how in DnD we joke that Pun-Pun has the ability Win: Pun-Pun wins the Game? Well, Zeal apparently is that ability.

Zeal has been errata'ed. If a perfect defense blocks even attacks that are impossible to dodge/parry, then Zeal doesn't strike through them.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 06:42 AM
Starting with one virtue at 3, another at 4 and the other two at 1 means that you start with 7 Willpower at no BP cost whatsoever, with the side effect of being two of these:
Heartless monster.
Whiny bitch.
Hot-head with no patience.
Utter coward.

Compassion 1 doesn't necessarily mean you're a monster. Heartless, sure. But not necessarily a monster. Strangely, few people have problems with playing a heartless monster, though.

Also, that works only for Solar and Solar-like Exaltations. The other Exalt types can only have one Virtue at 1 at game start.

I usually go with 3 - 3 - 2 - 1, rather than 3-2-2-2.

Tengu_temp
2010-04-01, 06:51 AM
Personally I'm not a fan of starting with any virtue at 1, maybe apart from temperance for some specific characters (http://kumakorner.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/kamina.jpg). If the ST gives you some extra XP at the start of the game, I tend to upgrade those virtues from 1 to 2 - it's only 3 XP each.

And yeah, very few non-Solars can start with virtues over 3 without spending BP. Many people tend to forgot about this when making them.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 06:56 AM
Personally I'm not a fan of starting with any virtue at 1, maybe apart from temperance for some specific characters (http://kumakorner.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/kamina.jpg). If the ST gives you some extra XP at the start of the game, I tend to upgrade those virtues from 1 to 2 - it's only 3 XP each.

I'm fine with Compassion 1 for my rather more extreme characters. While it does seem like free Willpower, it has downsides as well.

Though it would be interesting to have a Conviction and Compassion 3 character with Deliberate Cruelty. Mostly, he's a very kind, if determined man, but if he enters Limit Break, he will hurt you, just for giggles.

Tome
2010-04-01, 07:27 AM
Because it's so over the top, there isn't too much in Exalted that's actually properly gamebreaking.

Zeal and Total Annihilation used to be, before it was clarified that applicability trumping Perfect defences are still fully functional against them. Same for a few other bits. We've actually been getting a fairly good wave of errata recently that's fixing a lot of the broken stuff.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 07:28 AM
Zeal and Total Annihilation used to be, before it was clarified that applicability trumping Perfect defences are still fully functional against them. Same for a few other bits. We've actually been getting a fairly good wave of errata recently that's fixing a lot of the broken stuff.

It was also clarified in errata that you could not parry Total Annihiliation with even a perfect parry that can block unblockable attacks.

Exalted errata is highly schizophrenic.

grautry
2010-04-01, 07:52 AM
Take a look here. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=448985)

Those builds additionally don't rely on Dreams of the First Age or Scroll of the Monk, which translates to optimizing without Incantatrix, Dwoermokeeper and Tainted Scholar(and similarly silly classes) - making them quite elegant.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 08:01 AM
Those builds additionally don't rely on Dreams of the First Age or Scroll of the Monk, which translates to optimizing without Incantatrix, Dwoermokeeper and Tainted Scholar(and similarly silly classes) - making them quite elegant.

They also rely on constant ability to stunt for two dice, however, which is rarely a given. In fact, since you use perfect defenses, it is almost never a given.

So, if a build depends on a combo, at all, it is gonna run out pretty fast.

grautry
2010-04-01, 08:08 AM
They also rely on constant ability to stunt for two dice, however, which is rarely a given. In fact, since you use perfect defenses, it is almost never a given.

So, if a build depends on a combo, at all, it is gonna run out pretty fast.

That's the Tier 3 build.

Tier 1/Tier 2 builds only rely on stunts insofar as to continue using combos. Which, let's be honest - every other build will rely on that as well, optimized or not.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 08:12 AM
Tier 1/Tier 2 builds only rely on stunts insofar as to continue using combos. Which, let's be honest - every other build will rely on that as well, optimized or not.

Because you will run out of Willpower. It's much easier to run out of Willpower than it is to run out of motes, because there are fewer of temporary Willpower dots, and they are immensely useful.

Combos are not something you can pull off every single action. They are your super secret finishing moves or final straw defenses. Unless the average player has an imagination rivaling gods and elder chthonic beings of unspeakable insanity, their build will not rely on a way of recovering Willpower per action.

grautry
2010-04-01, 08:15 AM
Unless the average player has an imagination rivaling gods and elder chthonic beings of unspeakable insanity, their build will not rely on a way of recovering Willpower per action.

Wha?

Two die stunts are fairly easy to pull off.

They're imaginative and cool descriptions of your actions that use the scenery in a fun way.

Three-die stunts? Yeah, that's tough as hell to come up with. Two die stunts? Those aren't all that difficult.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 08:19 AM
Wha?

Two die stunts are fairly easy to pull off.

They're imaginative and cool descriptions of your actions that use the scenery in a fun way.

It is possible that you have a lower expectation of what a two dice stunt is than I do. Also, do remember that repeating a two dice stunt will cause its quality to fall.

Of course, it is also possible that you have a wider margin for such repeats than I do.

bosssmiley
2010-04-01, 08:35 AM
A little like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrNXjE0BeS0): either game mechanically meaningless choices, or a duel of unblockables-vs.-impregnable defences.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 08:45 AM
A little like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrNXjE0BeS0): either game mechanically meaningless choices, or a duel of unblockables-vs.-impregnable defences.

Of course, anyone who fights like that in Exalted will die. Fast. Unlike Dissidia, the resources you need to pull off such a tactic in Exalted are not infinite.

Well, Essence 10 Eclipses may have enough resources to pull that off in an extended fight, but everyone else will run out of Willpower quickly. If you're using a combo, motes aren't your worry. Willpower is. And nearly all the builds I have seen use combos.

So, yes, maybe the first minute of that fight would go like that. Then they would both die.

grautry
2010-04-01, 08:47 AM
It is possible that you have a lower expectation of what a two dice stunt is than I do. Also, do remember that repeating a two dice stunt will cause its quality to fall.

Of course, it is also possible that you have a wider margin for such repeats than I do.

Or, maybe, I do know exactly what a two-die stunt is supposed to look like and they're just more common at my table?

Let's try to the discussion civil, shall we?

It's not a problem to come up with two die stunts. Playing through Devil May Cry series/God of War series, watching a couple of animes and/or playing a few epic fantasy games should give you material for hundreds of stunts.

Not to mention that the game is not played out in real time. If your player needs 10 or 20 seconds to think of nice phrasing or to come up with a creative idea, that shouldn't be a problem. Also, there should be plenty of time between sessions - that's also a great time to think of any future stunts.

And really, after a while, stunting should simply become a trained skill.

I might not have that much experience with Exalted but as far as I saw so far, that's just how the game is supposed to work. Storyteller system ensures that combat is really damn lethal in the game.

So, once you get to high level of combat(unless you're walking around in Soulsteel CBA and with half-a-dozen other artifacts and signs that scream "Anathema here! Call the Wyld Hunt!") you will simply need to have some defensive charm in reserve or you'll get splatted. So you're forced to either rely on Infinite (X) Mastery and whacking the target over and over again(boring) or you can use combos(and frequently at that).

It's not so much a problem in my games since I've house-ruled that Celestial Exalts can use reflexive charms whenever they damn please(incidentally, this ensures that Combos are those flashy finishing moves) but based on the frequency of my players needing to use those defensive charms, I'd say that's just how the game is supposed to work.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 08:51 AM
Or, maybe, I do know exactly what a two-die stunt is supposed to look like and they're just more common at my table?

Let's try to the discussion civil, shall we?

I am keeping it civil. I didn't say you were wrong. You may even be right. It is simply a matter of perceptive. You're saying 1 is less than 2. I'm saying 2 is less than 3. Both are valid points of view, but for different questions.

Shame the question of what a stunt exactly is is so ill-defined.

grautry
2010-04-01, 08:58 AM
Shame the question of what a stunt exactly is is so ill-defined.

Maybe I've misread your intentions then(nature of the Internet /sigh), if that is so, then I apologise.

Anyhow, yeah - stunts are quite ill defined but there's not really any other way of doing that. What's cool for one person might be "Uh yeah, that's so <XYZ>, it's boring".

But, the simplest definition I can think of is:
1 die - Cool description.
2 die - Cool description that meaningfully interacts with the environment and/or adds something meaningful to the environment.
3 die - Just... Woah.

Incidentally, this also means that while 2-die stunts are pretty much every other action-common in my games, I've only had two 3-die stunts. I consider it quite interesting that there's(IMO) barely a gap between one and two die stunts but there's a giant gaping chasm between two and three die stunts.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-01, 09:01 AM
But, the simplest definition I can think of is:
1 die - Cool description.
2 die - Cool description that meaningfully interacts with the environment and/or adds something meaningful to the environment.
3 die - Just... Woah.

I can't help it if wuxia movies and action games made me jaded. :smalltongue:

EDIT: A build that relies on the interpretation and mercy of the Narrator is not a valid build, as Narrators hate your guts. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/3/29/)

There are two forces in RPGs that have no superior: the jadedness of the Narrator and the apathy of the players.

grautry
2010-04-01, 09:40 AM
There are two forces in RPGs that have no superior: the jadedness of the Narrator and the apathy of the players.

Anyway, we're getting kind of away from the topic.

Ultimately, here's the deal: even if an optimized build in Exalted relies on the niceness of the storyteller for stunts then it'll still be better builds than others.

Because, ultimately, you're going to be just as good as other players(if you don't have the opportunity to run the combos, neither will they) or you'll be simply outright better(since, well, you're optimized).

Besides, the Tier 1 Essence Reactor(and the Joy in Adversity Stance build) build doesn't even rely on combos(that much). As long as you can soak the hit to ping damage, you can reduce the damage further with your Twilight Anima power(giving you the opportunity to use EGT). Even if you have that opportunity once per 3-4 hits, you're still getting oodles of motes. Similarly with JiAS - you just need to launch the form and you're good for the rest of the fight, the mote regeneration takes place automatically.

Obviously, it'll run better with combos but they're not absolutely necessary. Also, even if you can't run combo /every/ turn then you're still good with Infinite X Mastery, perfecting(ISC if you only need to soak damage or just outright leave it to soak/Twilight anima power) in between and launching your EGT combo every couple of actions.

Can't comment on the Lunar build since I'm not really familiar with Lunars.

GrayWatch
2010-04-03, 04:12 PM
Exalted Cheese differs for each different Exalt type, and occasionally, for different castes, and also depends on how much errata is applying (for example an eclipse caste solar having learned Principle Of Motion and using NO errata, is game breaking. Totally, completely and utterly game breaking)

Tell-tale signs:
Solars/Abyssals/Infernals:
Any arrangement of abilities that results in an action long perfect anything, that does not also bring up additional flaws (example: Cobra and Mongoose Method allows an action long perfect defense, but introduces the flaw that it only works on a single weapon specified at the outset of the charm, and the opponents know this, so this is fine)

Any flurry of perfects with cost unrelated to length of the flurry

Essentially any combo that, given a stunt-per-action-of-flurry, from someone who stunts well, can theoretically end mote OR willpower positive.

Them mentioning the words "Twilight Essence Reactor"

Lunars:
Full Moons, and throwing heavy objects/wielding warstrider weapons. Be afraid.

Sidereals: Their whole charmset is all sorts of broken, especially any SMA's and Implicit Construction Methodology

Terrestrials:
It's very hard for a single terrestrial to have much cheese. It's very easy for a group of terrestrials to have LOTS of cheese. They work together scary well and there's not a whole lot you can do about it aside from splitting them up.
Or hitting them with perfect effects.