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x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 03:46 AM
We got bored with our campaign and characters so we decided to start a new one, an evil campaign. Due to the fact that sacrificing minions is the answer to all. I decided to play a necromancer but now the question arises... should I play a true or a dread necromancer and most important, why.

PinkysBrain
2010-04-01, 03:48 AM
Dread, because true is an unmitigated unplayable disaster of a class used only by the naive and the masochistic.

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 03:59 AM
Ok well ehm... why... it doesnt seem that bad on first sight...

And if i have to choose between naive and masochistic i would go for the latter. :smallbiggrin:

Half-Full
2010-04-01, 04:03 AM
Actually, Ture Necromancer isn't that bad, if you build it right. For example, check out Necrosis (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868722/Triad_of_Shadows) from Xaktsaroth's Triad of Shadows. It's good stuff.

Greenish
2010-04-01, 04:12 AM
Actually, Ture Necromancer isn't that bad, if you build it right. For example, check out Necrosis (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868722/Triad_of_Shadows) from Xaktsaroth's Triad of Shadows. It's good stuff.Sure, DMM cleric is pretty strong.

I'd go with Dread Necro, simply because knowing all the spells on your large spell list as a spontaneous caster is awesome, and the class works out of the box (even if, say, your DM objects with you being a twice-evolved spellstitched necropolitan).

Comes with free martial weapon proficiency for that thematic scythe too. :smallwink:

JaronK
2010-04-01, 04:17 AM
True Necromancer is a lame class, but you can enter it with more powerful classes and thus become stronger in the long run (for example, something like Wizard/Ur Priest/TN would be quite strong). Dread Necromancer is a fun and well designed base class. Overall, I'd recommend the Dread Necromancer.

JaronK

Half-Full
2010-04-01, 04:17 AM
Sure, DMM cleric is pretty strong.

I'd go with Dread Necro, simply because knowing all the spells on your large spell list as a spontaneous caster is awesome, and the class works out of the box (even if, say, your DM objects with you being a twice-evolved spellstitched necropolitan).

Comes with free martial weapon proficiency for that thematic scythe too. :smallwink:

Look further down in his post. He descirbes what one can do to regulate oneself to make the build playable for player characters. And if I were the DM, I would have nothing against allowing a player to play that build, provided he regulates himself as Xaktsaroth recomends. It's very thematic, looks extremely cool and seems to be very fun to play.

Maybe I'm just a lenient DM...

Coidzor
2010-04-01, 04:25 AM
I favor dread necromancers myself.

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 04:28 AM
Actually, Ture Necromancer isn't that bad, if you build it right. For example, check out Necrosis (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868722/Triad_of_Shadows) from Xaktsaroth's Triad of Shadows. It's good stuff.

That's gonna be one hell of a history... x]

Besides I think I'd go for the wizard class instead of the warlock, personal taste and all...

What are the pro's and cons of DN and pro's cons of TN.
I want to know why TN is so horrible, it seems way more versatile

So far DN has knowlegde of all spells and can cast spont.

TN is more versatile and has way more spells at his disposal not being limited to necro spells only. I got bored with my other class because it was the same over and over again. I'd rather sack a city with undead one day and fireballs the other. Because I can.

Eldariel
2010-04-01, 04:36 AM
Basically, TN is a theurge class that gets left further behind in casting levels. And given those are the alpha and the omega of undead control among other things (defines how many HDs you can have, for example, not to mention which Animation-spells you have access to in the first place), TN kinda blows goats for pocket change.

Hell, the abilities aren't anything special either. Overall, it's just...don't bother. Dread Necro is a simple 1-20 class that's very good at what it does. Take one of those. For versatility, just play a Cleric. They're fine Necromancers and more importantly, versatile as all hell. But let me promise you that your versatility is not improved by missing out on a bunch of spell levels (because the more spell levels, the more spells known and the more spells prepared and the more powerful effects you have access to).

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-01, 04:42 AM
Basically, TN is a theurge class that gets left further behind in casting levels. And given those are the alpha and the omega of undead control among other things (defines how many HDs you can have, for example, not to mention which Animation-spells you have access to in the first place), TN kinda blows goats for pocket change.

Hell, the abilities aren't anything special either. Overall, it's just...don't bother. Dread Necro is a simple 1-20 class that's very good at what it does. Take one of those. For versatility, just play a Cleric. They're fine Necromancers and more importantly, versatile as all hell. But let me promise you that your versatility is not improved by missing out on a bunch of spell levels (because the more spell levels, the more spells known and the more spells prepared and the more powerful effects you have access to).

CL can get mitigated by Practiced Spellcaster, and you get 2 pools to control from, arcane and divine.

Greenish
2010-04-01, 04:50 AM
CL can get mitigated by Practiced Spellcaster, and you get 2 pools to control from, arcane and divine.Two puddles of low level spells. :smallamused:

magic9mushroom
2010-04-01, 04:51 AM
Dread Necromancer all the way. They get abilities which are both flavourful and useful, they have infinite out-of-combat healing, full (if limited) casting progression, and you get free Lichdom without having to eat babies.

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 05:34 AM
Two puddles of low level spells. :smallamused:

I find low level spells more amusing than these world shattering wishes and the like.

I think I'm gonna play TN. if i wanted to become something uber epic i would try an ultimate magus orso, or just pure wizard.

Greenish
2010-04-01, 05:38 AM
I find low level spells more amusing than these world shattering wishes and the like.

I think I'm gonna play TN. if i wanted to become something uber epic i would try an ultimate magus orso, or just pure wizard.I don't pretend to be able to follow your reasoning, but I wish to point out that when magic9mushroom said that "you get free Lichdom without having to eat babies", he didn't mean that you can't eat babies if you want.

Also, tier 3 is hardly "uber epic".

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 05:40 AM
I don't pretend to be able to follow your reasoning, but I wish to point out that when magic9mushroom said that "you get free Lichdom without having to eat babies", he didn't mean that you can't eat babies if you want.

Also, tier 3 is hardly "uber epic".

I was planning on making him a necrofiliac. :P

Besides many do not follow my reasoning. you complain about 2 low level spell puddles, which indicates you play things to become powerfullwith high levl spells. And a wizard is tier one if I remember correctly.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 05:45 AM
Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric beats them both. Trade in your free Knowledge domain for the good Wizard necro spells like Shivering Touch and Enervation, and still have your regular domains left for Undeath (Free Extra Turning, Energy Drain and other goodies) and Deathbound (Triple your undead control limit, Avasculate, etc.)

You also get Desecrate on your class list, unlike Dread Necros, which I always thought was an unbelievably idiotic oversight. :smallmad: Plus other clerical goodies like Greater Consumptive Field.

TheYoungKing
2010-04-01, 05:49 AM
I was planning on making him a necrofiliac. :P

There's a feat for that.... do not remember if it was any good. Lich Loved.

Greenish
2010-04-01, 05:55 AM
Besides many do not follow my reasoning. you complain about 2 low level spell puddles, which indicates you play things to become powerfullwith high levl spells. And a wizard is tier one if I remember correctly.Or it indicates that I don't find running out of spells after a few encounters amusing. Plinking with crossbow, yay.

And wizard is tier one, yes. I fail to see the relevance of that statement to the rest of your post.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 05:55 AM
There's a feat for that.... do not remember if it was any good. Lich Loved.

Due to your constant "boning," Mindless undead can't notice you and you get some save bonuses.

Personally, I think the undead are just averting their eyes when you enter the room. Yes, you can make a zombie blush.

Gnorman
2010-04-01, 05:56 AM
Well, yeah, then don't ask for our opinion when you've clearly made up your mind already.

Seriously. Dread Necromancers are better. It's about action economy, not necessarily spell power (though spell power is nice). Do you really expect to go through all of your spells in a single day? A DN has plenty of spells per day available to him - and they're mostly actually useful, instead of lagging two to three spell levels behind the rest of the party (not to mention your opposition). Unless you're in an endurance campaign, there's just no point to such a large pool of weak spells.

Quadratic, ya dig?

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 06:41 AM
Well, yeah, then don't ask for our opinion when you've clearly made up your mind already.


I was just wondering what the pro's n cons were of each class.



Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric
what is this and where can I find it?

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 06:44 AM
what is this and where can I find it?

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is on the SRD.

Divine Magician is a cleric ACF in Complete Mage. Trade a domain for your choice of wizard spells from the necromancy, abjuration or divination schools at each level.

(It works with a regular cleric too, but you get one less domain that way.)

pingcode20
2010-04-01, 06:49 AM
To be perfectly honest, a True Necromancer is very much an 'assembly required' class. Yes, it can end up stronger, but you need skill and an instruction manual to put it together right and use it properly.

Dread Necromancer is the prebuilt set that gives you all the wonderful toys that you need to Necromancer it up.

EDIT: Also, it's more powerful on its own. Unless 'weak' is intrinsically a valuable factor, then the DN is just a better call.

Oslecamo
2010-04-01, 06:54 AM
Seriously. Dread Necromancers are better. It's about action economy, not necessarily spell power (though spell power is nice). Do you really expect to go through all of your spells in a single day? A DN has plenty of spells per day available to him - and they're mostly actually useful, instead of lagging two to three spell levels behind the rest of the party (not to mention your opposition). Unless you're in an endurance campaign, there's just no point to such a large pool of weak spells.

Quadratic, ya dig?

Minions to buff, ya dig?

First, control undead as a 2nd level spell means all your extra low level slots means even more undeads.

Second, buffed undeads are a lot more scary than vanilla undeads. And there's plenty of good low level buffs out there.

All the minions allow you to stomp on action economy. Since your oponent has to plow trough your undead ranks before he gets to you, you can cast more spells, and they don't need to be high level to do nasty stuff. Ray of enfeeblement, glitterdust, invisibility, bening transposition, ect, ect will render your oponent's defenceless to your undead horde.

But granted, it takes a good deal of optimization to make it work. Dread necro is much easier to play.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-01, 06:55 AM
Two puddles of low level spells. :smallamused:

Depends on the path used to access it.

That said, that's not the thing. The thing is two seperate Caster Levels.

So when you animate dead from the arcane side, you can control 4xCL total.
When you animate dead from the divine side, you can control 4xCL total.

Let's say you're ECL 12. CL 12 on both sides, and 5th level spells (as opposed to 6th, close to 7th).

Your arcane side controls 48 HD.
Your divine side controls 48 HD.
That's 96 total HD. Add in a Rod of Undead Mastery (Libris Mortis), and you double that, to 192 HD of undead.

That would be:
192 skeletons.
96 zombies.
8 zombie dragons (13HD)
38 Wraiths, and a zombie
64 shadows
21 Greater Shadows and a shadow

Needless to say, there's a lot of flexibility.

And that's not getting into a more versatile caster list on True necro. Not saying it's better. I am saying it's better if you can mitigate entry Req's.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 07:03 AM
What I like about TN is that it's one of the few PrCs that the Precocious Apprentice trick will work for without any fudging at all. But needing Practiced Spellcaster on both sides just to compete is wince-worthy, and you still lag behind on your spells throughout your career.

PinkysBrain
2010-04-01, 07:04 AM
It's good stuff.
It's also a NPC abusing early entry cheese ... in this case early entry cheese which doesn't work so well for PCs (LA- template).

The Glyphstone
2010-04-01, 07:15 AM
Depends on the path used to access it.

That said, that's not the thing. The thing is two seperate Caster Levels.

So when you animate dead from the arcane side, you can control 4xCL total.
When you animate dead from the divine side, you can control 4xCL total.

Let's say you're ECL 12. CL 12 on both sides, and 5th level spells (as opposed to 6th, close to 7th).

Your arcane side controls 48 HD.
Your divine side controls 48 HD.
That's 96 total HD. Add in a Rod of Undead Mastery (Libris Mortis), and you double that, to 192 HD of undead.

That would be:
192 skeletons.
96 zombies.
8 zombie dragons (13HD)
38 Wraiths, and a zombie
64 shadows
21 Greater Shadows and a shadow

Needless to say, there's a lot of flexibility.

And that's not getting into a more versatile caster list on True necro. Not saying it's better. I am saying it's better if you can mitigate entry Req's.

Except that at ECL12, the Dread Necro has the Undead Mastery class feature. With an 18 CHA and no stat-increasing items, that also gives him a 192HD undead control pool (4x12x4), 384HD if he gets a Rod of Undead Mastery.

Gnorman
2010-04-01, 07:16 AM
That would be:
192 skeletons.
96 zombies.
8 zombie dragons (13HD)
38 Wraiths, and a zombie
64 shadows
21 Greater Shadows and a shadow

Needless to say, there's a lot of flexibility.

Can we bring in practicality for a second? Any group that has one character rolling for 193 characters a combat round is going to get very, very bored, very very quickly.

Even just assembling those 8 zombie dragons is going to grow tedious.

Very few campaigns hit high levels, which is when you'll really start to bring the TN to fruition. The DN is simple, playable right out of the box, and effective at nearly every level 1-20.

And when I say "action economy," I mean that you need to spend your actions doing the most valuable thing possible, since getting more of them is so difficult/rare. And since a level five spell is usually much more effective than a level three (not that lower-level spells don't have their uses, mind you), it's better to be firing off the heavy artillery than plinking away for twice as long with a lower-caliber bullet. This is why I advocate having the highest spell level that you possibly can for your level.

Oslecamo
2010-04-01, 07:26 AM
Very few campaigns hit high levels, which is when you'll really start to bring the TN to fruition. The DN is simple, playable right out of the box, and effective at nearly every level 1-20.


Except that he only gets animate dead at level 7, while a vanilla cleric gets it at level 5. If you're so worried that you won't hit midgame, cleric is way superior to dread necro.

Add in a single level of wizard with precocious aprentice for command undead, and you're just lagging one level behind. You're actually casting spells as high level as the DN! TN will lag you a little behind, but the extra versatility will more than make up for it.

Gnorman
2010-04-01, 07:39 AM
Add in a single level of wizard with precocious aprentice for command undead, and you're just lagging one level behind. You're actually casting spells as high level as the DN! TN will lag you a little behind, but the extra versatility will more than make up for it.

Granted, I will say this: early entry tricks change everything. If you can pull off Wiz 1 / Cleric 3 / TN 14 / MT 2, great. But the 3/3/14 split will be lagging a full spell level behind the DN for its entire career, and two spell levels behind any other prepared casters in the party.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 07:41 AM
My ECL 12 Cloistered NecroCleric with Deathbound controls slightly less undead (72 HD, 144 with the rod) but he has 6th-level spells - that means Harm, Antilife Shell, GDM, Create Undead and Greater Glyph of Warding, just from core. Branching out gets Vigorous Circle to heal my army (Fast Healing does not harm undead), and Divine Magician gives me Ray of Entropy.

He's also free to take a level of Prestige Paladin of Tyranny without losing CL or Rebuking, and adding every PoT spell to his class list. Dominate Person anyone? (Reduced to a standard action cast by Battle Blessing, naturally.)

Oslecamo
2010-04-01, 07:48 AM
He's also free to take a level of Prestige Paladin of Tyranny without losing CL or Rebuking, and adding every PoT spell to his class list. Dominate Person anyone? (Reduced to a standard action cast by Battle Blessing, naturally.)

Assuming prc Paladin of Tyranny exists at all. I'm not sure you can combine two paladin alternates into a single one. And if you can, then TN can take prc of tyranny as well on that level where he only gets cleric casting.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-01, 07:54 AM
Except that at ECL12, the Dread Necro has the Undead Mastery class feature. With an 18 CHA and no stat-increasing items, that also gives him a 192HD undead control pool (4x12x4), 384HD if he gets a Rod of Undead Mastery.

Well, there's also the SLA that True Necro gets, which gives it CL= Character level. That's a 3rd source of CL.

At ECL 12, that's another +2 from necromantic prowess on ALL of them...

So CL 14, 14, 14, or 168 base.

And yes, gnorman, higher level spells are generally better than lower.

Generally.

However, compare any spell on the DN list at say, level 6...

To every level 5 spell on the sorceror/wizard and cleric list. You'll find that the higher number isn't always the more versatile or the better option.

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 07:55 AM
Granted, I will say this: early entry tricks change everything. If you can pull off Wiz 1 / Cleric 3 / TN 14 / MT 2, great. But the 3/3/14 split will be lagging a full spell level behind the DN for its entire career, and two spell levels (well, 1.5, but every other level you'll really feel it) behind any other prepared casters in the party.

So if I get this right.

First 3 lvl cleric, then 1 wizard, 2 levels MT and then TN?
with my first 2 feats on lvl 1 as spell focus necro and necromantic presence?
3rd:precocious aprentice
6th necromantic might

any other suggestions?

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 08:01 AM
Assuming prc Paladin of Tyranny exists at all. I'm not sure you can combine two paladin alternates into a single one. And if you can, then TN can take prc of tyranny as well on that level where he only gets cleric casting.

Ah, but you can't advance TN with PrC-Paladin, because TN doesn't have a spell-list to advance. You'd be advancing cleric, which means that the dead level of TN (where you only have cleric casting) would still be waiting for you when you got back to it. You'd just be delaying your arcane casting even more with that strategy.

You can combine two ACFs so long as they aren't replacing the same thing. For example, you can't do both a Mantled Erudite and a Spell-to-power Erudite, because they both replace the bonus feat. But you can do both a Hidden Talent and Bonus Feat Soulknife, because one replaces Wild Talent and the other replaces Psychic Strike.

Last Laugh
2010-04-01, 08:03 AM
Use clutch of Orcus every chance you get?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__Ae7RSqFrvw/SbowDs1LYvI/AAAAAAAALTE/Aeq_ZDuHhZo/s400/tod_mola_ram.jpg
(In all seriousness this spell isn't that great, but it is super cool)

Gnorman
2010-04-01, 08:12 AM
So if I get this right.

First 3 lvl cleric, then 1 wizard, 2 levels MT and then TN?
with my first 2 feats on lvl 1 as spell focus necro and necromantic presence?
3rd:precocious aprentice
6th necromantic might

any other suggestions?

More like start as a wizard, because I think you have to be a 1st level wizard to take Precocious Apprentice (please correct me if I am mistaken).

And Mystic Theurge should be filler at the END of your career, when you have nothing better to take. Get the goodies from TN first.

If you do manage to make it to 20, you should be casting as a level 16 wizard and a level 18 cleric. Plenty of goodies for all, admittedly.

Also: KALI MA, KALI MA!

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/mola-ram.jpg

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 08:15 AM
More like start as a wizard, because I think you have to be a 1st level wizard to take Precocious Apprentice (please correct me if I am mistaken).

And Mystic Theurge should be filler at the END of your career, when you have nothing better to take. Get the goodies from TN first.

If you do manage to make it to 20, you should be casting as a level 16 wizard and a level 18 cleric. Plenty of goodies for all, admittedly.

Also: KALI MA, KALI MA!


^^ indy indy indy!!!

Can't u need 8ranks in knowledge and stuff... only 6 in it for MT so....

The Glyphstone
2010-04-01, 08:17 AM
[QUOTE=PhoenixRivers;8198016]Well, there's also the SLA that True Necro gets, which gives it CL= Character level. That's a 3rd source of CL.

At ECL 12, that's another +2 from necromantic prowess on ALL of them...
QUOTE]

What SLA? Zone of Desecration only allows you to make more undead, it doesn't increase your cap on control. Create Undead specifically says they appear uncontrolled.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 08:19 AM
More like start as a wizard, because I think you have to be a 1st level wizard to take Precocious Apprentice (please correct me if I am mistaken).

You don't have to start as a wizard; you can take PA any time you get your first arcane caster level. So a Wiz 1/Cleric 1 can take it, or a Cleric 10/Wiz 1.

If he uses Cloistered Cleric (and he should), starting with that is a much better idea, as he'll get a ton of skill points at first level.


If you do manage to make it to 20, you should be casting as a level 16 wizard and a level 18 cleric. Plenty of goodies for all, admittedly.

The trouble I have with the TN is the MADness. Divine Magician gets less arcane spells, but can still grab the good ones, and neatly avoids that problem. And because I'm not tying up 14 levels on a theurge, I have much more PrC freedom.

EDIT: Also, Zone of Desecration doesn't stack with Desecrate, which you get as a cleric anyway. The TN's version is just always on and a little bit wider.

Oslecamo
2010-04-01, 08:27 AM
Ah, but you can't advance TN with PrC-Paladin, because TN doesn't have a spell-list to advance. You'd be advancing cleric, which means that the dead level of TN (where you only have cleric casting) would still be waiting for you when you got back to it. You'd just be delaying your arcane casting even more with that strategy.
Depends on the reading of spellcasting advancement.

If only the cleric casting is waiting for you, then your cleric also gets delayed, because if you pick the prc level, then pick another cleric level, it doesn't see that prc paladin advanced your spellcasting.

Otherwise, the prc paladin will fully advance the TN spellcasting, and when you get back to TN, it sees that it's cleric advancement has already been fulfilled, and gives you both arcane and divine advancment. Cheesy readings work both ways.



You can combine two ACFs so long as they aren't replacing the same thing. For example, you can't do both a Mantled Erudite and a Spell-to-power Erudite, because they both replace the bonus feat. But you can do both a Hidden Talent and Bonus Feat Soulknife, because one replaces Wild Talent and the other replaces Psychic Strike.

Except that paladin of tyranny fully replaces paladin, and prestige paladin fully replaces paladin as well. That's why you cannot combine them.

After all, the prestige paladin demands you to be able to turn undeads, not rebuke them like a paladin of tyranny. And be LG. They're not class abilities, they're prestige class requirements. And...Well, good luck claiming the two stack.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 08:41 AM
Depends on the reading of spellcasting advancement.

If only the cleric casting is waiting for you, then your cleric also gets delayed, because if you pick the prc level, then pick another cleric level, it doesn't see that prc paladin advanced your spellcasting.

Otherwise, the prc paladin will fully advance the TN spellcasting, and when you get back to TN, it sees that it's cleric advancement has already been fulfilled, and gives you both arcane and divine advancment. Cheesy readings work both ways.

Not at all; it seems you're misunderstanding me.

Only your base class has a spell list - it is thus a "spellcasting class." PrC Paladin, like many PrCs, thus advances that list.

If we use your reading - that PrCs can advance other PrCs that don't have lists - then I could for example do a Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Loremaster 4, and achieve 9ths on both sides. But you can't advance MT casting that way, because it doesn't have any spellcasting of its own - you would have to pick one of the base classes to advance with your Loremaster instead, thus only achieving 9ths on one side.

The common clause in casting PrCs - "if you have levels in multiple [arcane/divine] casting classes, you must choose which one you advance" is referencing this.

Only very specific PrCs - namely, Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster - can advance the casting of other PrCs (like theurges) rather than base casting. This is because what they advance isn't casting at all - it's the class feature of the PrC that allows THAT to advance casting.

The only time you can normally advance a PrC's casting with another PrC is when the first has its own casting progression - e.g. Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord. If all it has is "+1 level of existing class" then what you would advance with the second PrC is that existing base class, not the first PrC.

To apply the above to your True Necromancer example, you can absolutely do a Wiz 1/Cleric 3/TN 6/Prestige Paladin 1 (ECL 11.) At this point, you will have 9 levels of cleric casting, and 6 levels of wizard.

But when you go back to TN, you will land on TN 7 - and TN 7 only advances cleric casting. You will thus, at ECL 13, cast as a Cleric 10/Wiz 6. You are still 3 levels behind in cleric, but are now 7 levels behind in Wizard rather than 6.


Except that paladin of tyranny fully replaces paladin, and prestige paladin fully replaces paladin as well. That's why you cannot combine them.

After all, the prestige paladin demands you to be able to turn undeads, not rebuke them like a paladin of tyranny. And be LG. They're not class abilities, they're prestige class requirements. And...Well, good luck claiming the two stack.

Incorrect; Paladin of Tyranny does not replace the Paladin of Honor, it gets added alongside it. Only Prestige Paladin does any replacing. Thus, they can stack.

Oslecamo
2010-04-01, 08:47 AM
Incorrect; Paladin of Tyranny does not replace the Paladin of Honor, it gets added alongside it. Only Prestige Paladin does any replacing. Thus, they can stack.

They still don't, because prestige paladin applies only to LG paladin. Even if paladin of Tyranny is an addon, there's no official PoT prestige class.

Also, now that I notice it, nothing on prc paladin says that you add the paladin spell list to your cleric spell list! So even if they do stack, you still don't get the juicy PoT spells.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 08:52 AM
They still don't, because prestige paladin applies only to LG paladin. Even if paladin of Tyranny is an addon, there's no official PoT prestige class.

Of course not, I was suggesting one be created.
"Homebrew!" I can hear you cry even now, but I don't consider it such when you can create it simply by combining variants.
And even if your DM deems it to be thus, just don't take PrC Paladin - there are other Cleric PrCs out there that advance rebuking/casting.


Also, now that I notice it, nothing on prc paladin says that you add the paladin spell list to your cleric spell list! So even if they do stack, you still don't get the juicy PoT spells.

You missed this section:


Unique Spells

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 08:55 AM
Ehhh could guys start a tread on that paladin guy and get back to topic on this one? =]

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 08:58 AM
Ehhh could guys start a tread on that paladin guy and get back to topic on this one? =]

It is on topic - I'm making you a whole build :smallsigh:

One with no MAD or lost CL, even.

Oslecamo
2010-04-01, 08:58 AM
Of course not, I was suggesting one be created.
"Homebrew!" I can hear you cry even now, but I don't consider it such when you can create it simply by combining variants.

What's stoping me from just making the necrouber, a fullcaster with all cleric and wizard spells known then? I'm just adding stuff togheter!:smalltongue:




You missed this section:

You also missed the DMG section where players shouldn't abuse the rules to gain almost unlimited power. "In general". "Should". Those are atempts to prevent abuses. A player taking PoT prestige class is certainly not "general", nor "should" it be allowed for a minmaxed cleric to grab powerfull spells so easily.



It is on topic - I'm making you a whole build

One with no MAD or lost CL, even.

And wich you just admited that it doesn't exactly works by RAW.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 09:05 AM
You also missed the DMG section where players shouldn't abuse the rules to gain almost unlimited power. "In general". "Should". Those are atempts to prevent abuses. A player taking PoT prestige class is certainly not "general", nor "should" it be allowed for a minmaxed cleric to grab powerfull spells so easily.

"Powerful spells?" From the Paladin list? Do you hear yourself? :smallconfused:


And wich you just admited that it doesn't exactly works by RAW.

RAW is ambiguous. Both variants are in the same book (UA) so why not combine them?

And as I said, this was just an option anyway. Straight DM Cloistered Cleric is perfectly RAW, SAD, and (in my opinion) better than TN.

Oslecamo
2010-04-01, 09:12 AM
"Powerful spells?" From the Paladin list? Do you hear yourself? :smallconfused:

Sorry, I meant PoT. Dominate person, being mind control, is one of the few things clerics have trouble doing with their base spells.

Altough spell compendium does add some quite nice paladin spells, like that one that protects you from invulnerable to most status ailments.




And as I said, this was just an option anyway. Straight DM Cloistered Cleric is perfectly RAW, SAD, and (in my opinion) better than TN.

But the OP wants to play TN or dread. It's like those discussions when someone says they want to choose between a fighter or barbarian character, and someone barges in claiming they should play warblade.

Arakune
2010-04-01, 09:31 AM
Actually, Ture Necromancer isn't that bad, if you build it right. For example, check out Necrosis (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868722/Triad_of_Shadows) from Xaktsaroth's Triad of Shadows. It's good stuff.

Since when True Necro advance full cleric spellcasting? Otherwise he can't have 9th level cleric spells...

Edit:

Found it.

Arcane Spellcasting 12/14
Divine Spellcasting 12/14

The build is optimized, but for lower level play it's going to be hard to level.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 09:54 AM
Sorry, I meant PoT. Dominate person, being mind control, is one of the few things clerics have trouble doing with their base spells.

Altough spell compendium does add some quite nice paladin spells, like that one that protects you from invulnerable to most status ailments.

That's all versatility, not power. Cleric is strong enough on its own, adding PrC paladin won't do much to exacerbate that. It's Tier 1 whether you take the PrC or not.


But the OP wants to play TN or dread. It's like those discussions when someone says they want to choose between a fighter or barbarian character, and someone barges in claiming they should play warblade.

Uh, wrong again. He said he wanted to be a necromancer. You don't need a class with "necromancer" in the name to do that. Don't penalize me for thinking outside the box.

If he says he doesn't want to do it then fine, but he did express interest in Divine Magician.

x-Anarion-x
2010-04-01, 11:06 AM
If he says he doesn't want to do it then fine, but he did express interest in Divine Magician.

granted... where can i find this... paladin? u kinda lost me because i don't know the PrC

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 11:16 AM
granted... where can i find this... paladin? u kinda lost me because i don't know the PrC

Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)

Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) (LE instead of LG)

Mix and season to taste.

Take only one level of Prestige Paladin - you don't lose any casting or turning, you gain all the Paladin spells on your list, and you can now qualify for feats like Battle Blessing. You also get Detect Good at will, and can Smite Good 1/day. (You shouldn't be in melee though - that's what your rotting meat shields are for.)

If your DM doesn't let you combine the above variants, don't argue, just move on. You can still be a better necromancer as a Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric than with the other two methods in this thread.