Sephiroth v.s Kratos

[ArlEammon]

On one corner, we have "SEPHIROTH!" On ther corner we have Kratos, the slayer of the Olympian gods. Sephiroth's feats include having an awesome theme song, and having access to the Meteor Spell. Sephiroth is the best SOLDIER of Midgar, and also a powerful black magic user.

Kratos, is well, Kratos, he's killed Ares, Hercules, Helios Zeus and who who knows who else. Kratos has many magical powers and weapons. He even crushed Hercules'es head with his fist.

[Tirian]

No fight.

Kratos can actually kill the person standing in front of him. Sephiroth can only kill defenseless praying girls, and only when attacking from behind. In actual fights, he has an attack that "destroys" half of the Solar System but ultimately can't even KO a stuffed animal!

[Comet]

No fight.

Kratos can actually kill the person standing in front of him. Sephiroth can only kill defenseless praying girls, and only when attacking from behind. In actual fights, he has an attack that "destroys" half of the Solar System but ultimately can't even KO a stuffed animal!

Not really fair :smalltongue:

But yeah, probably Kratos, since killing gods is all he ever does. We don't really see the full extent of Sephiroth's informed powers.
But do they have to fight? I'd pay good money to watch them team up and fight crime instead!

[Revlid]

Sephiroth wanted to be a god. Kratos has killed gods (an entire pantheon, in fact).

[Fan]

No fight.

Kratos can actually kill the person standing in front of him. Sephiroth can only kill defenseless praying girls, and only when attacking from behind. In actual fights, he has an attack that "destroys" half of the Solar System but ultimately can't even KO a stuffed animal!

That is a.. very obviously biased opinion.

Also, a opinion of someone who has not seen The Last Order anime (In which.. the amount of wire fu they pull in that is insane, they spend half of the final battle ON the ceiling.)

Or Advent Children, in which he flings about 8 stories worth of a building at someone..

and of the games canon in which he repeatedly summons GODS, and cuts down super soldiers in score.


Not to mention tht the first summon you get is the God of Death.

[The Rose Dragon]

That is a.. very obviously biased opinion.

Need I remind that you used to go by the name of FF Fanboy? :smalltongue:

[Closak]

Besides, Supernova is an illusion, the only part of it that's actually real is the giant fireball at the very end.
The rest is just there as a way for Sephiroth to say "I am God, you are screwed"

He also came within minutes of tearing the whole frikkin planet out of orbit.
But then Cloud killed Kadaj's body with an Omnislash, effectively slamming the door to the physical plane shut in Sephiroth's face.
And since Sephiroth needs to actually have a presence on the physical plane to interact with it killing his avatar effectively put a stop to him.

It should also be noted that we have never seen Sephiroth at his full strenght.
Before and during the Nibelheim incident he was still relatively human and at his weakest.
During the final battle of the game he was using the majority of his power to keep Holy back, leaving him with only a small fraction of his strenght to fight the heroes with.
And during Advent Children he was manifesting in an avatar, which greatly limited how much of his power he could actually use.

[Zen Monkey]

Sephiroth is an effeminate pretty-boy, concerned more with posing dramatically and brooding over his mother. Kratos has no such concerns, is practical in the most brutal of ways. Sephiroth would glide around the room, spouting shallow attempts at philosophy, only for Kratos to tackle him and feed him his own cartoonishly oversized sword. Admittedly, I've never understood the appeal of Seph, whose character development seemed to consist mostly of a cape, hair spray, and "..."

They just come from different worlds. In one, you use chicken feathers to raise the dead, which you have an abundant supply of because you breed and race them at the video arcade. Yay for happy fun time, snowboarding to save the world. In the other, blood rains more frequently than water and death is found in an agonizing and visceral crunch. It's a bit like the GI Joe cartoon versus the space marines of WH40K, one just isn't built to handle the other.

[Closak]

Happy fun times my ass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PToYREEW3Cg)

[Graymayre]

Kratos.

Once again, he kills beings that are legendary in their difficulty to be killed. To kill gods, it is mostly accepted that one must have god-like powers.

Sephiroth, while powerful, is only capable of destroying non-deitic things (atleast as far as evidence has shown).

In the end, Kratos will have a new sword that he'll probably use to go ape**** on the Norse Pantheon.

[Lord of Rapture]

Kratos wins on the grounds that killing him can't slow him down for more than a few hours at most. Even if Sephiroth wins the first time, Kratos will eventually come back and kill him.

[bosssmiley]

If only we could have youtube-style aural preview (http://xkcd.com/481/). :smallamused:


on-topic: Tonberry waddles slowly towards both of them and shanks their respective bishy/muscle mary selves prisonyard style for their daring to disturb his nap.


"Who's the daddy now?!"
.....\
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/8/83/Tonberry_ffx.jpg

[Tirian]

Not really fair :smalltongue:

It really is. Cutscene and movie Sephiroth is portrayed as king of the badasses, but look at the gameplay.

Disk 1 Sephiroth killed unarmed bureaucrats, third-class soldiers and marines, defenseless girls, and shambling Jenova clones. The soldiers and marines had 200-300 HP according to my strategy guide, so color me unimpressed. Hard to say how strong Tseng was, but I'll give him credit for 3000 HP since Rude and Reno had 2K in Gongaga. That's really his most impressive feat, and it's still not all that remarkable. If it weren't for the flying and the amazing hair, you'd completely overlook him.

The Sephiroth in Disk 2, if I remember the flashback correctly, was level 50 and did like 3000 HP in damage with his spells. That's certainly not Kratos strong by any stretch of the imagination. Some might disagree, but I think that final boss Sephiroth wouldn't have survived against WEAPON if he hadn't been cowering behind his shield.

The only time Sephiroth lives up to his reputation is in anime and Kingdom Hearts. In the original source, he's a pushover with a good soundtrack.

[Closak]

In the end, Kratos will have a new sword that he'll probably use to go ape**** on the Norse Pantheon.

That wouldn't work.

Kratos attempting to use the Masamune would end...badly.
There's a very good reason why Sephiroth is the only one who can successfully use that thing without having it turn on him at the worst possible time.
Cursed sword is cursed...:smallannoyed:

Admitedly there's nothing stopping him from taking Cloud's sword instead...


Some might disagree, but I think that final boss Sephiroth wouldn't have survived against WEAPON if he hadn't been cowering behind his shield.

That's because he was weakened from using so much power restraining Holy.

Remove Holy from the equation so that he has access to his full power and he would supposedly be more powerful than both Ruby and Emerald WEAPON's combined.
Stupid planet's ultimate defense mechanism...:smallannoyed:

[Xefas]

Kratos will be on his way to kill the next pantheon of gods that have mildly slighted him at the last Deity Singles Mixer.

Sephiroth will show up as the end-of-tutorial boss, performing such mundane attacks as chucking city blocks with one hand, and throwing fireballs the size of Rhode Island; all of which will be solved by simple quick-time events.

In the end, Kratos will collect Sephiroth's trenchcoat, which will be the next "Golden Fleece", allowing him to reflect attacks with the timely mashing of the R1 button, and his Masamune, which will be his very slow, powerful weapon, more for show than anything else. You'll level it up towards the end of the story on normal mode, when you have more experience points than you know what to do with, and won't even bother on harder difficulties because its combo will leave you wide open at the end.

[Graymayre]

That wouldn't work.

Kratos attempting to use the Masamune would end...badly.
There's a very good reason why Sephiroth is the only one who can successfully use that thing without having it turn on him at the worst possible time.
Cursed sword is cursed...:smallannoyed:



Aww cmon', do you honestly think that a curse could ever stop Kratos from using something to cut off some harpy wings? :smalltongue:

[Closak]

Well then, i hope he doesn't mind being stabbed by his own weapon every now and then.

Because that's pretty much guaranteed to happen if he tries to use it.

In the long run it's just not worth it, it be that much more effective to use a weapon that doesn't constantly try to kill you for not being it's true owner.
One would have to be mentally retarded to try to use it when there are other options that are just as good that won't try to turn on you 24/7

It probably end with him throwing the thing into a pit somewhere in frustration at how it never does what he wants it to do.
Then he probably rob Cloud of the First Tsurugi instead.
Giant sword that can split into several smaller swords and be able to attack from every angle at once? Hell yes! And the best part is that it won't turn on you.

[Comet]

One would have to be mentally retarded to try to use it when there are other options that are just as good that won't try to turn on you 24/7

That bolded bit right there? Describes Kratos just about perfectly.
I mean, look at the guy! He's been dragged through various figurative and literal hells more times than he can count. And it shows. He doesn't know anything other than murder. I'm not even sure he feels pain anymore.

[Seraph]

Im going to shock myself here, but I vote Sephiroth.

I never thought Id find a character with a more unbearable concept and fanbase, but kratos is quite possibly the stupidest concept in the stupidest game Ive heard of.

[Prime32]

Im going to shock myself here, but I vote Sephiroth.

I never thought Id find a character with a more unbearable concept and fanbase, but kratos is quite possibly the stupidest concept in the stupidest game Ive heard of.Um, I don't think that's how it works...

[ZeroNumerous]

Um, I don't think that's how it works...

Voting against someone you dislike is perfectly within the rules. However, I have to agree that Sephiroth would kill Kratos. Why? Because of one little bit in the OP.


Sephiroth's feats include having an awesome theme song, and having access to the Meteor Spell.

Bolding mine.

Sephiroth casts Meteor. The planet they're fighting on is destroyed. Sephiroth wins by default.

[Geddoe]

Sephiroth I guess.

Hercules and Xena show that just because you can kill some gods doesn't really mean anything. These aren't D&D gods where you are obliterated from reality just because they look at you funny.

Also, to the person who said sephiroth was only level 50 and only did like 3k damage, did you miss the part where he has the Peerless status and is invulnerable to all attacks in the flash back?

[Arakune]

Sephiroth casts Meteor. The planet they're fighting on is destroyed. Sephiroth wins by default.

And lose if the planet become less than fine dust. Metor was supposed to only kill every single living being in the planet, not the planet itself (that was the mako' job).

We all know how being death stops Kratos, and as far as apocalypse goes, Kratos was more successful.

[ZeroNumerous]

And lose if the planet become less than fine dust. Metor was supposed to only kill every single living being in the planet, not the planet itself (that was the mako' job).

In a suicide attack, killing the other guy counts as victory. :smalltongue:

[Tirian]

Im going to shock myself here, but I vote Sephiroth.

I never thought Id find a character with a more unbearable concept and fanbase, but kratos is quite possibly the stupidest concept in the stupidest game Ive heard of.

Clearly, the thinking man's choice is the insane alien hybrid who wields a sword half again as long as he is tall who seeks to rule the world by means of its destruction. A ticked-off tattooed guy with chain blades welded to his arms who seeks to brutally destroy the pantheon of gods who rules the world is just silly talk.

[Lost Demiurge]

Man, this would actually be an interesting fight. Pretty close, as they go.

Here's how I see it.

Figure they're both running through a city in the Final Fantasy VII world, doing their thing, trying to kill someone to get to the next area. Both of them run into each other, try a standard attack that fails, and see that this guy isn't the standard mook to be stabbified by an entirely non-phallic sword, really honest/used to beat a cyclops to death with.

"Whoa, not a mook. Hmm.... Aha!" They think. "He's not the protagonist I've been taunting for most of the disc or a viable slashfic target for me/A huge, screen-filling monstrosity or a recognizeable mythological figure, so this isn't a boss fight. Must be a mid-boss."

They amp up the attacks, and stumble into a cutscene full of quick-time events. Stuff blows up, and both look awesomely cool!

"The hell? How does a muscle-bound white Barret-wanna-be with a bondage fetish and anger issues/Androgynous smug jerk with a compensator sword and mommy issues merit a CUT SCENE where he looks ALMOST as cool as me??!! Alright, cut scene's over. NOW I'll take him to town."

Sephiroth makes the mistake of going one-winged angel. Kratos shouts in glee, and demonstrates that he spent the last few decades fighting against things that are much, MUCH bigger than him. It does not go well for Sephiroth.

About the time that Kratos has him pinned to the street with part of a skyscraper and is ripping off Sephiroth's wing, the former SOLDIER remembers "Hey, whoa, I can use my godlike power to do SUBTLE stuff, too!" He uses a previously unshown, unannounced, and unforeshadowed ability/materia/whatever to rip his essence out of the dead husk of his uberform, reform as his human shape behind and above Kratos, and stab him in the back. Takes the cursed Greek a full five minutes to bleed out, and it's all Sephiroth can do to keep Kratos on the end of the sword, facing away from him. Kratos is fighting up until the end to grab Sephiroth and head-butt him to death. Still, the Ghost of Sparta perishes.

Ten minutes later, Sephiroth is resting, in the ruins of a city, panting and leaning on his sword. Once his breath is back he'll say something nihilistic and gloaty, that always makes him feel better. Then the ground opens in front of him, and the normally white energy of the lifestream gushes out! But something's wrong... There's streaks of red in it. Then a pale hand claws out of the ground, as Kratos pulls himself up. Behind him, the lifestream goes full bloody red, and the distant sobbing of a forgotten flower girl can be heard, as the Lifestream has been tainted beyond repair.

Sephiroth sets himself for one last battle.

Kratos reaches back into the rift, and pulls out the freshly-beaten-and-decapitated spirit form of Jenova. Didn't take him long to finish her while he was in the Lifestream, and he shows the once-AGAIN killed remnants of Sephiroth's "mother" to him.

THAT does it. Enraged, Sephiroth charges him with every ounce of strength left in his body. He's lost his cool entirely.

In the resulting quick-time event, Sephiroth gets disarmed, crippled, and beaten to death with the hilt of his own sword. Then he's impaled upon it and left to rot next to the tear in the Lifestream, a grim sentinel to the escaping essences now bleeding into the ruined city on a soon-to-be dead planet.

Kratos moves on to the second level of the game.

[Scorpions__]

Sephiroth vs Kratos?

Depends on who designs it... Epic Games or Square Enix.

Although if it were Square Enix it would be funny to see Kratos fighting and not spilling gallons of blood.





DM[F]R

[Graymayre]

I'm not so sure if the shows hercules and xena qualify for evidence on the limits of Greek god power.

[warty goblin]

Let's face it folks, there's only one person who can kill Kratos: Doomguy.

And even then, he'll have to do it again in the sequels.

[Closak]

So you are saying that Kratos could take a being that is capable of completely erasing entire universes from existence (Retroactively at that) by blinking?

I don't buy it.

But if you want to test that theory...*Pokes Azathoth and a couple other similiar beings*

[warty goblin]

So you are saying that Kratos could take a being that is capable of completely erasing entire universes from existence (Retroactively at that) by blinking?

I don't buy it.

But if you want to test that theory...*Pokes Azathoth and a couple other similiar beings*

I did say person, didn't I? Unless you've got a very liberal interpretation of humanity, I'm fairly sure Azathoth doesn't count.

[Mando Knight]

In a suicide attack, killing the other guy counts as victory. :smalltongue:

Not when the other guy claws his way out of hell every time he's killed by cutscene power.

[Closak]

Not when the other guy claws his way out of hell every time he's killed by cutscene power

Problem is, Sephiroth does pretty much the same thing through sheer force of will power.

His only problem is that he needs Jenova Cells to manifest a physical form, if it wasn't for that he would pop right back within a couple of hours after you beat him.

You want to keep him dead?
Then hunt down and destroy every single damn jenova cell, because otherwise he will come back the moment one of them finds it's way into a suitable human.

And even then he's not truly dead, just lacking a physical body.

[Fan]

Sorry, but by power scale alone..

Meteor Spell > Kratos.

I believe the V.S. thread is won if the other person is dead...

No, it doesn't matter if they can come back... as I'm quite sure the "Few hours" statement is MORE than a exaggeration.

Since in game, you had to go and fight the fates, and then kill them in order to get access to your thread.

I'm pretty sure that Seph is faster than Kratos by virtue of having wings, and the ability to fly/ move faster than the human eye can follow.

Thus, he gets there first, cuts the thread, activates Meteor. End Game.

[Closak]

Well, the main reason he can't come back that quickly is due to the lack of a host body.
His mind and conciousness can pop back extremely quickly, the problem lies in getting an actual body, so he has to wait until a suitable individual get's infected by Jenova Cells before he can regain a physical presence.
Until then he's stuck, capable of thinking and planning but unable to interact with the physical plane.

Basically, Sephiroth takes as long to come back as it takes for a suitable host to get infected (For obvious reasons, how long this takes can vary by a lot)

Kratos takes as long to get back as it takes to beat your way out of hell.

But either way, neither of them actually stays down.

And Sephiroth does have a rather huge speed advantage, as well as the whole teleportation and flying thing.
So if it comes down to a race, Kratos is going to have some serious trouble keeping up.

[chiasaur11]

Ah, whoever loses, the multiverse wins.

I'm betting on Kratos, though. Sephiroth is getting the exact same "He blows up planets" arguments based on over the top spell animations he always gets, same sort of stuff he got in the "Sephiroth vs the JLA" thread.

Kratos, meanwhile, has been shown to be all but unkillable, and een then he tends to claw his way out of hell.

So, my money?

Kratos kills the pretty boy, steals the sword, goes off to kill more pantheons, as said above.

Then, he dies when he goes up against Volstagg the Voluminous, The Lion of Asgard.


Because Volstagg, that's why.

[Fan]

Again, once he reaches the threads (and I believe they teach Greek Mythology in Super Future School, so he should know about that at least... especially considering they summon Leviathian.) he just cuts it, and burns it down to ash. No rewinding for Kratos.. as he'll burn every thread except for his, and well... once your out of thread of Fate... you kind of can't make more.

Seph can remove Kratos's ability to come back..

To my knowledge, you can't kill only vaugely material magic. Even with the Blades of Exile.

Ergo.. Kratos can't remove Sephiroth's ability to come back.

[The Rose Dragon]

No rewinding for Kratos.. as he'll burn every thread except for his, and well... once your out of thread of Fate... you kind of can't make more.

Seph can remove Kratos's ability to come back..

To my knowledge, you can't kill only vaugely material magic. Even with the Blades of Exile.

Kratos came back through sheer badassery. He only traveled back in time through the Loom.

Also, Kratos can punch a ghost. He doesn't really need the Blades to kill vaguely material stuff.

[ZeroNumerous]

Not when the other guy claws his way out of hell every time he's killed by cutscene power.

Ok. He claws is way out of Hell to find... The earth still not there. Either way, they're both dead. It just happens to be that Seppy landed the killing blow.

[Fan]

Kratos came back through sheer badassery. He only traveled back in time through the Loom.

Also, Kratos can punch a ghost. He doesn't really need the Blades to kill vaguely material stuff.

Zeus was fairly material if I remember correctly.

That, and Seph doesn't NEED the life stream to come back... and once he uses Meteor the planet's gone, Seph cruising away on Meteor to go find another planet, and Kratos dies to lack of oxygen, and the sudden lack of oxygen sucking his lungs out of his chest. Congratulations, you just fought your way through hell to be caught in a permanent cycle of eternal pain, that you can't do anything about because your wearing (at best) a goat skull helmet, and a lion skin loin cloth to protect you from gamma radiation, and lack of oxygen.

Seph meanwhile cruises on a giant ball of fire till he finds another planet with life, and repeats.

[Mando Knight]

I'm pretty sure that Seph is faster than Kratos by virtue of having wings, and the ability to fly/ move faster than the human eye can follow.

Having wings is the worst idea you can have while fighting Kratos. Killing winged creatures is his third most favorite hobby, right after getting better and killing ZEUUUUUUUSSSSS!

[The Rose Dragon]

Having wings is the worst idea you can have while fighting Kratos. Killing winged creatures is his third most favorite hobby, right after getting better and killing ZEUUUUUUUSSSSS!

Good thing he only has one wing, then. :smalltongue:

((He did have one wing in Kingdom Hearts.))

[Fan]

Having wings is the worst idea you can have while fighting Kratos. Killing winged creatures is his third most favorite hobby, right after getting better and killing ZEUUUUUUUSSSSS!

Except this is a contest of speed. Not of fighting.

Seph is at least as strong as Kratos.. and well is significantly faster as he moves faster than the human eye can see... which is much faster than anything Kratos has done, even in cut scenes.

All Seph has to do is sever his thread.. or set the whole damn spool of fate on fire.

End game for everyone in Greek Mythology.

[The Rose Dragon]

All Seph has to do is sever his thread.. or set the whole damn spool of fate on fire.

End game for everyone in Greek Mythology.

Traditionally, of course, the threads of the Loom are completely indestructible save to the shears of the Atropos.

Of course, God of War is hardly traditional, but nothing suggests the threads can be destroyed.

[Prime32]

Next vs thread: Kratos vs. the Monkey King. :smalltongue: (the guy who is immortal 72 times over and removed his name from the records in both afterlives so they can't claim him)

[warty goblin]

Zeus was fairly material if I remember correctly.

That, and Seph doesn't NEED the life stream to come back... and once he uses Meteor the planet's gone, Seph cruising away on Meteor to go find another planet, and Kratos dies to lack of oxygen, and the sudden lack of oxygen sucking his lungs out of his chest. Congratulations, you just fought your way through hell to be caught in a permanent cycle of eternal pain, that you can't do anything about because your wearing (at best) a goat skull helmet, and a lion skin loin cloth to protect you from gamma radiation, and lack of oxygen.

Seph meanwhile cruises on a giant ball of fire till he finds another planet with life, and repeats.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why is there no oxygen? Also, no oxygen won't suck the lungs out of your chest. Even hard vacuum apparently doesn't manage that.

[Fan]

Traditionally, of course, the threads of the Loom are completely indestructible save to the shears of the Atropos.

Of course, God of War is hardly traditional, but nothing suggests the threads can be destroyed.

So he beats up the Fates, and takes them.

* snipity do dah*

That, and Rewinding your thread is also impossible by Greek Mythology, as is beating the Fates.

So if you want to go even slightly traditional. The Fates beat up Kratos by simply snipping his thread when he starts to make things look hairy.

He also can't come back to life due to having a special punishment for him.. probably holding up the Galaxy... just to keep him forever bound... as being smashed by the galaxy is garunteed to stop you from moving.

@ above:

It is a admitted exaggeration for the lungs out of his chest deal.. but.. Seph blows up the planet... Assumedly this includes it's atomsphere.. ergo he has no air. He dies due to brain damage in 15 seconds... forever.

[The Rose Dragon]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why is there no oxygen?

I expect that it either burned up (somehow) or dissipated to unbreathable levels due to lack of a gravitational force holding it together.

[Closak]

There is no oxygen because there is no more planet.

When Kratos comes back from hell he comes out in empty space.
Cold vacuum all around.

Whoops.

[littlebottom]

*cough* look at avatar *cough*

simply put, from my view, although alot people will moan sephiroth couldnt kill a fly, in actuallity, he is extreamly skilled in killing people. the problem is, that because he comes from a final fantasy game, they have to make the bad guy beatable, just because it HAS TO END HAPPILY EVER AFTER... its final fantasy, thats kinda the point, BUT if you actually pitted him against anyone if he actually existed, he would be unstopable by anyone in the FFverse, atleast.

[Fan]

*cough* look at avatar *cough*

simply put, from my view, although alot people will moan sephiroth couldnt kill a fly, in actuallity, he is extreamly skilled in killing people. the problem is, that because he comes from a final fantasy game, they have to make the bad guy beatable, just because it HAS TO END HAPPILY EVER AFTER... its final fantasy, thats kinda the point, BUT if you actually pitted him against anyone if he actually existed, he would be unstopable by anyone in the FFverse, atleast.

*cough Versus XIII*

It is going to be a tragedy... and there's blood.

[d13]

If the thread is over if one of them 'dies', then whoever strikes first win.

But, you know...
Kratos would refuse to stay dead, because he's awesome like that. Sephirot... would cry in a corner, because he's just some kind of emo alien, that happens to be able to destroy half the world with a thought.

[chiasaur11]

*cough* look at avatar *cough*

simply put, from my view, although alot people will moan sephiroth couldnt kill a fly, in actuallity, he is extreamly skilled in killing people. the problem is, that because he comes from a final fantasy game, they have to make the bad guy beatable, just because it HAS TO END HAPPILY EVER AFTER... its final fantasy, thats kinda the point, BUT if you actually pitted him against anyone if he actually existed, he would be unstopable by anyone in the FFverse, atleast.

So, wait.

I like this logic.

Oh man, the things I can do with it.

Teatime, from Hogfather?

He's unbeatable. He had to be beatable, because it's a Discworld book, and the bad guys lose in Discworld books, but if you actually pitted him against anyone if he actually existed he would be unstoppable.


Volstagg, from Thor?

He's unbeatable. He had to be beatable, because it's Thor's book, and Thor has to seem useful or else it would be silly to have him on the cover, but if you actually pitted him against anyone if he actually existed he would be unstoppable.

I am using this in EVERY FUTURE VERSUS DEBATE EVER.

Thanks!

[Mando Knight]

There is no oxygen because there is no more planet.

When Kratos comes back from hell he comes out in empty space.
Cold vacuum all around.

Whoops.

Kratos has the sheer badassitude to fight his way out of hell, and gained the power of a god. I don't think it's ever mentioned that he needs air to live. :smallwink:

[littlebottom]

So, wait.

I like this logic.

Oh man, the things I can do with it.

Teatime, from Hogfather?

He's unbeatable. He had to be beatable, because it's a Discworld book, and the bad guys lose in Discworld books, but if you actually pitted him against anyone if he actually existed he would be unstoppable.


Volstagg, from Thor?

He's unbeatable. He had to be beatable, because it's Thor's book, and Thor has to seem useful or else it would be silly to have him on the cover, but if you actually pitted him against anyone if he actually existed he would be unstoppable.

I am using this in EVERY FUTURE VERSUS DEBATE EVER.

Thanks!

your welcome, of course it only works for the bad guys really.

[The Rose Dragon]

Kratos has the sheer badassitude to fight his way out of hell, and gained the power of a god. I don't think it's ever mentioned that he needs air to live. :smallwink:

He can breathe underwater. I'm not sure whether he can survive without breathing.

Though honestly, I wouldn't be surprised. He seems to have gained a ridiculous number of powers over the course of three games. Then lost them every single new game through some plot contrivance. First it was the Blade of Olympus draining them, then it was the River Styx.

[warty goblin]

There is no oxygen because there is no more planet.

When Kratos comes back from hell he comes out in empty space.
Cold vacuum all around.

Whoops.

You can't do this with a meteor strike. It's simply not possible*. There's reasonably compelling evidence that the planet Earth survived an impact from something about the size of Mars at some point in the past. This page (http://qntm.org/destroy#sec1) indicates that if you could fire a planet into Earth at about 50 km/s you might manage it.

*You could of course hit the planet hard enough to kill everything on it, but that's a very different thing than destroying the planet.

[Starfols]

Kratos has the sheer badassitude to fight his way out of hell, and gained the power of a god. I don't think it's ever mentioned that he needs air to live. :smallwink:

Air is for PANSIES! Real men hold their breath! :smalltongue:


*cough* look at avatar *cough*

simply put, from my view, although alot people will moan sephiroth couldnt kill a fly, in actuallity, he is extreamly skilled in killing people. the problem is, that because he comes from a final fantasy game, they have to make the bad guy beatable, just because it HAS TO END HAPPILY EVER AFTER... its final fantasy, thats kinda the point, BUT if you actually pitted him against anyone if he actually existed, he would be unstopable by anyone in the FFverse, atleast.

I don't know about that. Most of the guys in FF have super reality bending powers. Kefka, Exdeath, Ultimecia. Then again, if there was a universe wide FF free for all, my money's on Sabin. :smalltongue:

[chiasaur11]

Air is for PANSIES! Real men hold their breath! :smalltongue:



I don't know about that. Most of the guys in FF have super reality bending powers. Kefka, Exdeath, Ultimecia. Then again, if there was a universe wide FF free for all, my money's on Sabin. :smalltongue:

Mine's on Garland.

Does he say "I will knock some of you down"?

No. He will knock them ALL down.

[Fan]

Kratos has the sheer badassitude to fight his way out of hell, and gained the power of a god. I don't think it's ever mentioned that he needs air to live. :smallwink:

How bad ass someone is. Matters not, it does.

Now if uou have some canon support for him being able to breathe in vaccum that'd be fine.

As for it not destroying the planet.. it's been stated MANY times that if it hits the world dies, it aborbs all the life stream, and the planet, all life on it, and everything within a good distance of the magnetosphere dies... so by in game fact it DOES destroy the planet...

[Closak]

Let's see here.

Sephiroth kills Kratos.

Kratos is pissed and beats his way out of hell.

Kratos comes back to life.

Only to find out that while he was dead Sephiroth has used the corrupted lifestream to rip the planet out of orbit, effectively killing the planet and letting Sephiroth absorb the rest of it's energy.
It also completely kills all life and utterly destroys the atmosphere, all that's left is vacuum and a giant chunk of dead rock being used as a spaceship.

Kratos: Where did the (BLEEP) atmosphere go?

And then Sephiroth uses his newly gained god-power to drop a continent on him.

Then eventually Sephiroth finds a new planet and repeats the process, absorbing that too, now he has two giant chunks of dead rock under his complete control and even more power, then continue this trend with a third planet, then a fourth, then a fifth, and so on.


Simply put, losing the first time just isn't an option here.
If Kratos doesn't win the first time then he's screwed.
So he damn better make sure he comes out on top the first time.

[Fan]

Except he can't because compared to Seph's speed.. he'd die before he could blink.. skull fracked by a sword.. through his eye socket.

Failing even that he flies far beyond what Kratos can reach, something likely above the stratosphere.. and proceeds to cast Meteor / Super Nova... end game. Thats not even accounting for the master magic, and summon materia which.. would allow him to cast shield.. which would make him invulnerable to Kratos's attack, and then the mime materia to keep on casting Meteor at NO MP COST.

[warty goblin]

As for it not destroying the planet.. it's been stated MANY times that if it hits the world dies, it aborbs all the life stream, and the planet, all life on it, and everything within a good distance of the magnetosphere dies... so by in game fact it DOES destroy the planet...

Er no, that's killing everything on the planet, a very, very different thing than destroying the planet. If they were equivalent Jupiter would not exist.

[Agrippa]

I'm puting my money on Kratos. He's just that much more brutal and nasty. Besides, he's a fullfledged god while Sephiroth is a mere borderline demigod. Strangely this made me think of a Sephiroth vs. Alucard vs. Elexander Anderson vs. Hellboy, Spike, Angel, Buffy, Willow and Doctor Orpheus fight I was coming up with. In the ruins of Midgar just outside of Edge city with Cloud and company just watching with dropped jaws.

[Closak]

In the Final Fantasy 7 universe the planet is a living being of it's own.

When you kill a person the corpse is still left behind.

Same thing with the planet, if you kill the planet then it's corpse is still there, it's just reduced to a dead shell.
And when the planet dies, it's bodily functions go away, which means "Oh crap, there goes the atmosphere, and several other very important things"

[Fan]

Er no, that's killing everything on the planet, a very, very different thing than destroying the planet. If they were equivalent Jupiter would not exist.

erm.. Warty.. physics doesn't apply to Final Fantasy.. or most anime/ video games...

It shows the planet burn to ash when it's life stream is gone.. in the animation describing exactly what life stream is in game... and is a stated in game fact as to what happens to the planets that get hit by Meteor...

[Dr.Epic]

On one corner, we have "SEPHIROTH!" On ther corner we have Kratos, the slayer of the Olympian gods. Sephiroth's feats include having an awesome theme song, and having access to the Meteor Spell. Sephiroth is the best SOLDIER of Midgar, and also a powerful black magic user.

Kratos, is well, Kratos, he's killed Ares, Hercules, Helios Zeus and who who knows who else. Kratos has many magical powers and weapons. He even crushed Hercules'es head with his fist.

First off, half naked guy v. extremely flamboyant character with oversized phallic weapon. :smalleek:

Second, I ain't never played no FFVII, but there's no way Kratos is being taken down by Sphiroth.

[The Rose Dragon]

erm.. Warty.. physics doesn't apply to Final Fantasy.. or most anime/ video games...

It shows the planet burn to ash when it's life stream is gone.. in the animation describing exactly what life stream is in game... and is a stated in game fact as to what happens to the planets that get hit by Meteor...

Of course, Kratos can deflect the Meteor back to the power of the Golden Fleece.

Which will result in a tennis match.

[Lost Demiurge]

So.

If Sephiroth calls Meteor, what's to keep Kratos from knocking it out of the sky?

Seriously, he's done stuff a lot more complicated and difficult than getting to a meteor about to crash onto the earth, and slashing it into tiny bits.

[Seraph]

So.

If Sephiroth calls Meteor, what's to keep Kratos from knocking it out of the sky?

Seriously, he's done stuff a lot more complicated and difficult than getting to a meteor about to crash onto the earth, and slashing it into tiny bits.

see, this is why I think kratos is ridiculous. he's nothing more than a juvenile power fantasy put to code.

[Closak]

Well, for starters the thing is the size of the world's biggest city.

Second, it took the planet's ultimate defense mechanism and the lifestream to get rid of the thing.



Does Kratos have as much power as an entire planet?
Somehow i don't think so.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, for starters the thing is the size of the world's biggest city.

Second, it took the planet's ultimate defense mechanism and the lifestream to get rid of the thing.



Does Kratos have as much power as an entire planet?
Somehow i don't think so.

Could a planet kill a god?

[Mando Knight]

erm.. Warty.. physics doesn't apply to Final Fantasy.. or most anime/ video games...

Then how the hells do you think it applies to Kratos?

And why would Kratos be completely destroyed by Sephiroth in a fight due to Sephy's speed, when Sephiroth is defeated by the most definitely not-the-God-of-War Cloud, and Kratos manages to maul Hermes (the messenger of the gods, renowned for his speed) and Zeus (who teleports freely in combat)?

[Closak]

Yes it could.

Basically, the planet is the overdeity of the setting.

Then directly below that we have Jenova and Sephiroth themselves (When they are at their strongest)

Then we have Minerva, the "Goddess" who is the bonus boss with 10 million HP in Crisis Core.

Below that we have the WEAPON's

Below that is the Sephiroth the party fights (Due to being weakened from restraining Holy)

Below that it comes out of divine territory and starts dealing with mortals.

[Poison_Fish]

Of course, Kratos can deflect the Meteor back to the power of the Golden Fleece.

Which will result in a tennis match.

So this becomes kingdom hearts all over again?

[The Rose Dragon]

So this becomes kingdom hearts all over again?

With more blood and gore. And actual weapons instead of a key.

Also, more threesomes.

[Poison_Fish]

With more blood and gore. And actual weapons instead of a key.

Also, more threesomes.

And here I thought the amount of potential threesomes in KH was enough.

On second thought, I imagine you can get both a lot of red orbs and xp.

[Fan]

Then how the hells do you think it applies to Kratos?

And why would Kratos be completely destroyed by Sephiroth in a fight due to Sephy's speed, when Sephiroth is defeated by the most definitely not-the-God-of-War Cloud, and Kratos manages to maul Hermes (the messenger of the gods, renowned for his speed) and Zeus (who teleports freely in combat)?

Breathing applies in video games.

Breathing is not physics.

I never claimed it to apply to Kratos.. Your statement... makes very little sense.

As for how the speed works.. Apparently Zeus is retarded as teleport pretty much gives anyone with sense as to how to use it a insta kill against those who don't.

Sephy strikes faster than Kratos, and moves faster. As they both play by the rules of rocket tag due to their obscene weapons.. this goes to Seph.

Seph has more insta kill magic, including a spell that makes him completely immune to Kratos's attacks (Shield materia, which is found IN the Northern Crater.), and a spell that slows Kratos down even more so that he can't even HOPE to respond (Time materia.. oh wait. Still one Materia. Master Magic.) .. and on top of that a spell that speeds him up.. (Time materia again. This time using haste.)

There is no HOPE for Kratos beating Seph.

He is immune to his attacks, can freely teleport, is faster than him, and has more insta kill attacks that provide less of a chance for him to defend.

That is all WITHOUT Meteor, copied limit breaks, or any form of infinite loops which he can technically have running at the same time.

[littlebottom]

sephiroth can summon the meteor, but he needs the black materia... thats not a sephiroth inherent ability remember....

sorry, no matter how much i want sephiroth to win, i cant help but point that out.

we know for a fact that in "story" sephiroth was beaten at the center of the planet, and that meteor was beaten back by the lifestream and holy.

so when sephiroth comes back via a puppet of his. he is more than likely, no longer in possesion of the black materia. it is possible, that (as materia are crystalized forms of the lifestream) that when sephiroth died, the materia floats around the lifestream with him (as we saw in AC the materia becomes part of the person, and i didnt see kadaj drop bahumat materia when he died) and the black materia rematerializes when sephiroth does, but thats theoretical.

but after all of that, sephiroth shouldnt have to summon meteor, as long as he has speed, precision, and long range on that masamune, (and the shockwaves he causes with it, that slice clean through virtually anything it seems) he seems to have a atleast minor upper hand... as for getting rid of him for good? completely impossible, as long as the planet itself still exists, as his body returns to the lifestream, and can be used to make plants grow, meaning that he basically just gets shuffled around a bit.

my theory for beating sephiroth, because im a fair man, is that you must kill him somehow first, which returns him to the lifestream, and then continue to use the reactors across the planet at full power in a vain attempt to run the planet dry of its lifestream. (destroying the planet at the same time) but this is so long term its not directly pheasable.

in essence, kratos has to destroy not only the man but the entire planet, and even then, why is that a sure fire way to eradicate him, jenova may of been 1 of several, who are all on different planets, each with the capability to make sephiroth exist again. if this were the case kratos has his work cut out for him to go around the universe destroying every planet that has been conqured.

EDIT: interesting thougt, as sephiroth was originally grown via human dna, (since he was born like a normal human, he just had jenova cells added to him while in the womb) there could be all sorts of different types of alien sephiroths :smalltongue: "kratos is one, sephiroth is many":smallbiggrin: although this proves nothing, it was just a nice thought

[chiasaur11]

Breathing applies in video games.


Some games.

Not others.

Like in the 2D Marios?

Breathing don't mean jack diddly.

[Fan]

Yes, but you also died from touching a Goomba in that, and Mushrooms made you double in size.

I hardly think the two games are in ANY way related.

[Tavar]

You mean the ones where if you touch water without a sub you die?

[Lost Demiurge]

see, this is why I think kratos is ridiculous. he's nothing more than a juvenile power fantasy put to code.

And Sephiroth ain't? :D

[The Rose Dragon]

And Sephiroth ain't? :D

Let's face it, most action video game characters are escapist fantasy put to code. That's why we play video games, after all.

Would you really like to play a video game character where you had to relive your life, only without full sensation? :smalltongue:

[Fan]

The point is. By just base stats alone. Seph beats out Kratos via SHEER SPEED, and the ability to weaken his opponent to stupid levels.

That, and if Seph can get a scan off, he can use the appropriate death on Kratos to instant kill him... since he has no in game immunity to instant death effects. Fluff be damned.

First round: Seph is statedly faster goes first. Casts STOP on Kratos.

Second Round: Kratos is still stopped, Seph casts Haste on himself.

Third Round: Still stopped for Kratos. Seph casts meteor, and moves into Orbit.

Fourth Round: Kratos unstops, his ultra magi toughness and bad assitude allowing him to break the effects before he normally would be able to.. notices a giant ass meteor coming his way.. attempts to Golden Fleece, and as he does. Seph casts stop on him again.. now stopped and unable to defend. Kratos dies as he is crushed by a piece of rock almost the size of the moon, and his soul is sucked out, and burned for power within seconds.

That's.. pretty much how it goes.

[Tavar]

And Sephiroth ain't? :D

Nope. He's what the juvenile power fantasy put to code is fighting. Big difference :smalltongue:.

[Lost Demiurge]

That's.. pretty much how it goes.

Maybe. Though if we're giving Seph ALL his tricks... What defense does he have against petrification? And what's to stop Kratos from showing him a medusa's head? One that he'd have no clue to avoid studying?

It's a moot point anyway. The more I think about this... It's gonna come down to which one of them's the star of the game. In a God of War game, it'll be Kratos. Same for Sephy in a FF game.

Still, it'd be fun to watch, whoever came out on top.

[Fan]

Maybe. Though if we're giving Seph ALL his tricks... What defense does he have against petrification? And what's to stop Kratos from showing him a medusa's head? One that he'd have no clue to avoid studying?

It's a moot point anyway. The more I think about this... It's gonna come down to which one of them's the star of the game. In a God of War game, it'll be Kratos. Same for Sephy in a FF game.

Still, it'd be fun to watch, whoever came out on top.

All bosses in FF are immune to petrification. They have a spell that does that, they are also immune to time effects, and instant death effects.

Seph has the advantage of immunities from his source material... Kratos does not.

[Eldan]

Nope. He's what the juvenile power fantasy put to code is fighting. Big difference :smalltongue:.

Which, of course, means that Kratos wins. Power fantasies always defeat their enemies :smalltongue:

[SDF]

Breathing applies in video games.

Breathing is not physics.

I never claimed it to apply to Kratos.. Your statement... makes very little sense.

Except the part in GoW where Kratos stays underwater as long as he wants.

[The Rose Dragon]

First round: Seph is statedly faster goes first. Casts STOP on Kratos.

An alternate interpretation.

First round: Sephiroth is faster and goes first. Uses Stop on Kratos. Since Kratos fights in real time and rounds mean nothing to him, he can immediately bring the Golden Fleece to bear, which gets Sephiroth to stop. Then Kratos rips out his head. :smalltongue:


Except the part in GoW where Kratos stays underwater as long as he wants.

He has the Trident of Poseidon, though, which explicitly gives him the ability to breathe and dive underwater.

[Fan]

Water has air in it, and he was a God at the time.

He is no longer a god... as he was kinda killed by Zeus, and was cast out of the pantheon.

The blades of exile pretty much define the fact that he's no longer a god.

Also.. TRD.. The point of rounds is defining who acts faster than he whom can defend.

That, and your assuming that it's even a ray, or a AOE.. It's a target (IE. No Attack.. Nothing to block. Originating point IS the target... you'd just be reflecting it back on yourself.)

You can't reflect that sort of attack.

[The Rose Dragon]

Water has air in it, and he was a God at the time.

He is no longer a god... as he was kinda killed by Zeus, and was cast out of the pantheon.

The blades of exile pretty much define the fact that he's no longer a god.

He can breathe water in all three games. That has nothing to do with the fact that he's a god (he was a god for all of thirty minutes to one hour of gameplay, which contained about two minutes of underwater travel), and all to do with the fact that he has Poseidon's trident.


That, and your assuming that it's even a ray, or a AOE.. It's a target (IE. No Attack.. Nothing to block. Originating point IS the target... you'd just be reflecting it back on yourself.)

You can't reflect that sort of attack.

At this point, I'm not even sure you played the God of War games, considering the kind of weird stuff Kratos deflects. Like someone looking at him.

[Fan]

Again, irrelevant.. As the meteor kills him, and uses his soul to burn for power to give to Seph.

Nothing you can do when your soul is burned from the multiverse.

Again, those effects have a discernable line of effect / aoe type of deal (Gaze attacks work like that.).. This is a effect that originates at the point of attack. Meaning it has nothing to be reflected at except at Kratos himself.

Ergo, no way to block by the definition of the WORD.

[The Rose Dragon]

Ergo, no way to block by the definition of the WORD.

He also deflects instant death by god fiat in quick time events. Or time. Though admittedly, deflecting time turns into a tennis game where the AI always loses because it would be boring otherwise. But the initial deflecting of time is just... deflecting time.

The only thing he can't deflect are the heavy attacks of some larger-than-average enemies. Which is weird, considering he deflects time.

[Fan]

He also deflects instant death by god fiat in quick time events. Or time. Though admittedly, deflecting time turns into a tennis game where the AI always loses because it would be boring otherwise. But the initial deflecting of time is just... deflecting time.

The only thing he can't deflect are the heavy attacks of some larger-than-average enemies. Which is weird, considering he deflects time.

So he can't deflect meteor in the first place.

So stop isn't needed. He goes first.. flies up.. and keeps flying directly vertical.. likely teleporting up as well..

and just lets the Meteor do it's work.

Nothing more to it.

[Terry576]

New argument:

No QTEs, no Round Attacking.

1v1 fight.

Straight up?

Sephiroth attacks with Meteor, razes the planet to nothingness.

Kronos is a little wuss, beats the Fates, and comes back.

Sephy kills him AGAIN, by telestabbing him in the face, then stalks his ass and finds the Fates, burns Kronos thread, and wins.

Finis.

[The Rose Dragon]

So he can't deflect meteor in the first place.

So stop isn't needed. He goes first.. flies up.. and keeps flying directly vertical.. likely teleporting up as well..

and just lets the Meteor do it's work.

Nothing more to it.

No, he can deflect all sorts of non-direct attacks. So, if Sephiroth were to take a meteor in his hand and try to beat him with it... well, he'd just dodge out of the way, but he couldn't deflect it.

[Fan]

No, he can deflect all sorts of non-direct attacks. So, if Sephiroth were to take a meteor in his hand and try to beat him with it... well, he'd just dodge out of the way, but he couldn't deflect it.

That's impossible for him to move that far.. The thing is the size of the city...

[The Rose Dragon]

That's impossible for him to move that far.. The thing is the size of the city...

Kratos does some pretty impossible stuff, though. Did I mention the deflecting of instant death by god fiat? :smalltongue:

[Fan]

Kratos does some pretty impossible stuff, though. Did I mention the deflecting of instant death by god fiat? :smalltongue:

He doesn't have that ability. Pure, and simple.

Show me where he does, and I will believe it.

[Starfols]

The point is. By just base stats alone. Seph beats out Kratos via SHEER SPEED, and the ability to weaken his opponent to stupid levels.

That, and if Seph can get a scan off, he can use the appropriate death on Kratos to instant kill him... since he has no in game immunity to instant death effects. Fluff be damned.

First round: Seph is statedly faster goes first. Casts STOP on Kratos.

Second Round: Kratos is still stopped, Seph casts Haste on himself.

Third Round: Still stopped for Kratos. Seph casts meteor, and moves into Orbit.

Fourth Round: Kratos unstops, his ultra magi toughness and bad assitude allowing him to break the effects before he normally would be able to.. notices a giant ass meteor coming his way.. attempts to Golden Fleece, and as he does. Seph casts stop on him again.. now stopped and unable to defend. Kratos dies as he is crushed by a piece of rock almost the size of the moon, and his soul is sucked out, and burned for power within seconds.

That's.. pretty much how it goes.

He's right you know, speed is power.

Now, tremble before the mightiest entity to ever walk the earth!
http://mexicancuisine.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/speedy-gonzales.jpg
:smalltongue:


Anyway, I don't think stat inducing magics would work either way, as both would consider the other a 'boss'. :smallamused:

I think with the length of the masamune, Kratos would be able to beat sephy in close range combat; the question is if seph can keep him away for the entire fight.

Also, if I remember correctly, sephiroth's 'essence' is diluted slightly when he spends time in the lifestream. Even with jenova cells (which there are a finite number of), sephy would have a finite number of resurrections before being severely weakened.

edit: also, people are forgetting how long the meteor takes to actually strike a planet. :smallannoyed: It didn't hit Midgar after at least 40 hours! :smalltongue:

[Fan]

Actually, in God of War.. Bosses aren't immune to time, and he has shown a canonical Non Immunity to time, and Petrification.

Death effects I'll say no to, as that's not fair to cast Death Level 5 on Mr. Level 100 Kratos for instant death.

[Starfols]

Actually, in God of War.. Bosses aren't immune to time, and he has shown a canonical Non Immunity to time, and Petrification.

Death effects I'll say no to, as that's not fair to cast Death Level 5 on Mr. Level 100 Kratos for instant death.

yes, but as far as I know, there are no status-inducing magics in GoW. Thus, I am using the approximation.

[Fan]

yes, but as far as I know, there are no status-inducing magics in GoW. Thus, I am using the approximation.

Again, I'm just going by the same.. but using canon rather than comparisons for each.

Both are acceptable ways of doing things.. and I'd be willing to compromise as to what worked, and what didn't if you'd like.

[Starfols]

Again, I'm just going by the same.. but using canon rather than comparisons for each.

Both are acceptable ways of doing things.. and I'd be willing to compromise as to what worked, and what didn't if you'd like.

Sorry, FF tactics has cemented my perception that slow and such are conditions, rather than some sort of time influence. I don't know what sort of magics are IN GoW, so I can't really say.

[littlebottom]

sephiroth can summon smaller meteors too, that take less time to hit the planet, look at dissidia, you can do several sizes of meteor in real time, but even the quickest characters cant get out the way of the biggest meteor in that.

[Lost Demiurge]

sephiroth can summon smaller meteors too, that take less time to hit the planet, look at dissidia, you can do several sizes of meteor in real time, but even the quickest characters cant get out the way of the biggest meteor in that.

Well, if we're going by Dissidia, then Seph's not THAT much faster than Kratos. Rendering much of the arguments above moot.

And I think the golden fleece could take care of smaller meteors, no problem.

[Fan]

Well, if we're going by Dissidia, then Seph's not THAT much faster than Kratos. Rendering much of the arguments above moot.

And I think the golden fleece could take care of smaller meteors, no problem.

He's faster in other media he's represented in.. We're using all of Seph here, just how your using all of Kratos.

Ergo. He's faster, and has the meteor abilities.

[chiasaur11]

He's right you know, speed is power.

Now, tremble before the mightiest entity to ever walk the earth!
http://mexicancuisine.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/speedy-gonzales.jpg
:smalltongue:


SECOND most powerful. (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2008/06/04/oh-no-arrows/)

[Lost Demiurge]

He's faster in other media he's represented in.. We're using all of Seph here, just how your using all of Kratos.

Ergo. He's faster, and has the meteor abilities.

Ah. So I can use all the neat gewgaws and tricks that Kratos picked up during his games?

[Terry576]

Ah. So I can use all the neat gewgaws and tricks that Kratos picked up during his games?

No because he loses them everytime he tries to touch something.

He'd probably lose all that **** the instant he touched the ground.

[Shadowcaller]

No because he loses them everytime he tries to touch something.

He'd probably lose all that **** the instant he touched the ground.

I sense much anger in you...

[Lost Demiurge]

No because he loses them everytime he tries to touch something.

He'd probably lose all that **** the instant he touched the ground.

And Sephiroth's power level and assorted tricks change in each game (or film) that he appears in. What's your point?

So, Fan... Since you're using Sephiroth at his most powerful point and position with the total sum of his abilities, we can do the same with Kratos?

[littlebottom]

ok then, i recon its fair to say that any confirmed absolute across all of them is fine, but the odd thing out in 1 game or somesuch that doesnt fit in directly cant be used? i mean i wouldnt use anything sephiroth could do in kingdom hearts he couldnt in ff7 for example. i only mentioned dissidia because the meteor argument could become a little more vaired atleast :smalltongue:

[Fan]

And Sephiroth's power level and assorted tricks change in each game (or film) that he appears in. What's your point?

So, Fan... Since you're using Sephiroth at his most powerful point and position with the total sum of his abilities, we can do the same with Kratos?

Again, no invulnerability, infinite loops, or extremely haxx tricks. This includes his time as a literal God of War (or did you think I wouldn't notice what you were playing at there?):smallamused:

[Lost Demiurge]

ok then, i recon its fair to say that any confirmed absolute across all of them is fine, but the odd thing out in 1 game or somesuch that doesnt fit in directly cant be used? i mean i wouldnt use anything sephiroth could do in kingdom hearts he couldnt in ff7 for example. i only mentioned dissidia because the meteor argument could become a little more vaired atleast :smalltongue:

Well, if you go that route then Sephiroth loses the instant death spell, the city meteor, and the uberpower he had in FF7. Might not be best to go that route.

[Arcanoi]

Again, no invulnerability, infinite loops, or extremely haxx tricks. This includes his time as a literal God of War (or did you think I wouldn't notice what you were playing at there?):smallamused:

Wouldn't that invalidate Sephiroth's time as you know... a seven-winged angel?

EDIT: Ninjaed >_>

[littlebottom]

well to me, it is confirmed to all that he summoned one kick ass meteor to destroy the planet. its a major plot point for the original game for one.

the seriphim sephiroth, the "one-winged angel" with 7 wings is a debateably one, as it appears for only his final boss form with no explanation or evidence. but it is supposedly his actual bodys form after having swam in the lifestream for so long.

i really want to go into depth alot of behind the scenes stuff about ff7 now, but its not the place to:smallfrown:

[Mando Knight]

Actually, in God of War.. Bosses aren't immune to time, and he has shown a canonical Non Immunity to time, and Petrification.
Unlike just about every FF character, Kratos can wiggle his way out of Petrification. But that's probably because he doesn't have a party member to stick a Golden Needle on him. :smalltongue:

Death effects I'll say no to, as that's not fair to cast Death Level 5 on Mr. Level 100 Kratos for instant death.

That and the Golden Fleece makes it unfair to Sephy to hand Kratos a victory. :smalltongue:

[Lost Demiurge]

Again, no invulnerability, infinite loops, or extremely haxx tricks. This includes his time as a literal God of War (or did you think I wouldn't notice what you were playing at there?):smallamused:

Alright, fair enough.

Kratos fights Seph, gets his ass handed to him by Seph's boringly strong uberpowers, dies, returns, takes a side trip to the Temple of the Fates, and edits him down to a reasonable power level. Then goes back to fight him and end him by dropping Midgar on him or something.

EDIT: And I STILL say a stupidly large meteor coming in to slowly smash the planet wouldn't be a game-ender for Kratos. It'd be three stages, tops. Hell, he'd use his chains to lasso the damn moon to act as a counterweight, and pull the f***er off course if he needed to.

[Flickerdart]

How's Sephiroth's ability to come back from the dead? Cause Kratos seems on a first-name basis with the afterlife, those parts of it that he doesn't just wipe the floor with routinely.

[Terry576]

Sephy can come back as long as there are people with Jenova cells. Considering that the infection has gone over half the freakin' world, he can totally own. And considering the fact that in reality, here's what happens with the Greeks:

Kratos gets pissed off, and tries to kill a god.

Zeus sexes his mother, his wife, AND any female relatives, waits for his kids to grow up, and makes Kratos fight them. Kratos kills em, and suffers massive psychological damage.

Zeus then proceeds to mess up the rest of his life.

Finis.

[littlebottom]

How's Sephiroth's ability to come back from the dead? Cause Kratos seems on a first-name basis with the afterlife, those parts of it that he doesn't just wipe the floor with routinely.

sephiroths ability to return from the dead resides in the fact all souls return to the lifestream, this means they still exist, even after death, and although it is an impossibility to return these souls by our own desire, sephiroth can be brought back by one of his sephiroth clones allowing sephiroth to take their body, but they must be infected with jenova cells. thats about it. admittedly it did take 2 years story wise for sephiroth to return from the dead originally, but thats due to the fact that the wareabouts of jenova were unknown (at the bottom of the crater) but now they have been rediscovered, and are most likely the head of jenova is lying on some rubble of the destroyed shinra building.

[Slayn82]

Let's face it, most action video game characters are escapist fantasy put to code. That's why we play video games, after all.

Would you really like to play a video game character where you had to relive your life, only without full sensation? :smalltongue:

I like to play The Sims.

And as far as the battle goes, anyone killed by Kratos has his/its souls turned into orbs. So, if Sephirot awessome is just because he absorbed enought lifestream, well, don't mess with Kratos. HE EATS SOULS FOR BREAKFAST - OR JUST A QUICK LUNCH ON HIS WAY TO SLAUGHTER. If he thinks its a good plan, he will kill the PLANET and absorb its essence just to get some new ability and blast the meteor. I would not put it above him at all. (what? did you think he was trying to save the world?)

And Jenova is probably less dangerous than Cerberus anyway. Also, be as fast as you wish, Sephirot will end up stunned by wrath of titans for one small instant. And its all it takes for Kratos to get him with his pants down and start a cutscene minigame. (no, not those ones, you perverts!!:smallredface:)

And physically, if Seph needs avatars to act, those are not that fast with being able to be taken by Cloud both in the ending of FF7 or the Advent Children Movie. Cloud is nowhere near Kratos in the power scale or speed/range of attack.

[Primal Fury]

Well... Let's see... Kratos wins. Why? Cuz Sephibroth is lame, and Kratos will beat him senseless with the power of HOPE, that's why. :smalltongue:

Only joking... just a little bit, Seph is seriously lame. :smallannoyed:

Honestly though? Kratos wins because he is more human. That's what humans do; they succeed against impossible odds. As soon as Seph turns into the one-winged thingy, it's time for him to die. Kratos specializes in defeating "invincible" gods and god-monsters.

Also, if pretty-boy gets all his powers, Kratos gets his god powers too. "Kratos doesn't get his god powers, but seph still gets to destroy the planet by wiggling his butt-cheeks" is just ridiculous. And seph would still lose. Because he sucks.

Next up! Bayonetta vs. Kratos! Who will be the victor?!

[littlebottom]

well, first of all, i dont think saying "i win" means you win.

secondly, sephiroth doesnt wiggle his butt-cheeks, they wiggle all by themselves! his butt-cheeks are sentient you see:smalltongue:

[Primal Fury]

well, first of all, i dont think saying "i win" means you win.
Well in these cases, it kinda does. It doesn't matter if the opponent is mechanically better; if you want the other guy to win, then they're gonna win.

Speed means nothing. Kratos ripped Hermes' legs off... and somehow grafted them onto his own. Hades tried to rip Kratos' soul out, and he sorta... pulled it back I guess. I didn't really understand that part. Cronos friggin' ate him. Kratos ripped his guts open from the inside, then impaled him through the face. He's good at killing. It's his thing. :smallwink: I just feel more comfortable putting my money on the guy who routinely kills gods with his bare hands than the guy who got his butt whooped by a group of androgynous teenagers. :smalltongue:


, sephiroth doesnt wiggle his butt-cheeks, they wiggle all by themselves! his butt-cheeks are sentient you see:smalltongue:
I really don't know what to say to this. :smalleek:

[Terry576]

Sephiroth lost because its FF.

If Sephiroth won, FF would have a terrible depressing ending.


Imagine if Kratos was the evil character, and Zeus was the good guy.

Kratos would lose, because it's a video game. Zeus has to win, otherwise the world is dooooooomed.

[Mando Knight]

Next up! Bayonetta vs. Kratos! Who will be the victor?!
Sony would love to tell you, but all they're allowed to show are some command inputs and noises. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Zen Monkey]

Wasn't Sephiroth brought down by a bunch of kids, a talking dog, and a cat riding a stuffed toy? I can't see the literal god of war being brought down by people who spend as much time raising chickens and snowboarding as they do training for combat. The latter kills pantheons of gods, the former fights emo teenagers and their pets.

The only fight from ff7 that might be interesting to me would be Kratos versus all of the knights of the round, at the same time.

[Bob_the_Mighty]

sephiroths ability to return from the dead resides in the fact all souls return to the lifestream, this means they still exist, even after death, and although it is an impossibility to return these souls by our own desire, sephiroth can be brought back by one of his sephiroth clones allowing sephiroth to take their body, but they must be infected with jenova cells. thats about it. admittedly it did take 2 years story wise for sephiroth to return from the dead originally, but thats due to the fact that the wareabouts of jenova were unknown (at the bottom of the crater) but now they have been rediscovered, and are most likely the head of jenova is lying on some rubble of the destroyed shinra building.Ok, I'm going to admit now that I don't know much on the topic OR the current rules as to who gets what abilities, but if Sephiroths soul returning to the lifestream let's him come back, what if Kratos just stopped it? If he has the Claws of Hades I'm pretty sure that'd be manageable.


Kratos would lose, because it's a video game. Zeus has to win, otherwise the world is dooooooomed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the world end up much, MUCH worse off because of Kratos' victory than it would've ended up had he lost?

[Lost Demiurge]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the world end up much, MUCH worse off because of Kratos' victory than it would've ended up had he lost?

Oh yeah. Big time.

Calling Kratos a "good guy" is laughable at the best of times. He's just fun to play because of his over-the-top brutality and badassitude.

If a fight like this ever did happen, the rest of the world is screwed. Kratos would blow up half the planet or destroy or taint the lifestream or something. And if he didn't, Sephiroth would.

[Terry576]

But you're the hero of God of War. Would you play a game where in the end, it turns out you just got blasted to Oblivion and Zeus was screwing with your head the entire time?

...Dude. That sounds too awesome to be a game.

[The Rose Dragon]

I like to play The Sims.

In the Sims, you can do things you can't do in real life. Like get knocked up by aliens. I mean a literal replay of your entire life, but without touch and olfactory sensation.

[kpenguin]

In the Sims, you can do things you can't do in real life. Like get knocked up by aliens. I mean a literal replay of your entire life, but without touch and olfactory sensation.

And gustation. Don't forget about that lovely sense.

[The Rose Dragon]

And gustation. Don't forget about that lovely sense.

Olfactory senses include both smell and taste.

[Fan]

Wasn't Sephiroth brought down by a bunch of kids, a talking dog, and a cat riding a stuffed toy? I can't see the literal god of war being brought down by people who spend as much time raising chickens and snowboarding as they do training for combat. The latter kills pantheons of gods, the former fights emo teenagers and their pets.

The only fight from ff7 that might be interesting to me would be Kratos versus all of the knights of the round, at the same time.

These "emo teenagers" are 26-35 who bind literal Gods to their will, and cleave buildings in half with a single strike... in fact, the only one who is vaugely a teenager is Yuffie, and I think she's 17... so in most countries she's an adult.

Your definition of teenager both infuriates me, and confuses me if your being serious.

[Starfols]

These "emo teenagers" are 26-35 who bind literal Gods to their will, and cleave buildings in half with a single strike... in fact, the only one who is vaugely a teenager is Yuffie, and I think she's 17... so in most countries she's an adult.

Your definition of teenager both infuriates me, and confuses me if your being serious.

Yuffie's 16. Cloud, Aeris and Tifa are 21, 22, and 20, respectively. Not teens, but still kids. Still, there was a talking dog and a stuffed doll in there. :smalltongue:

Also he has a point, that chocobo raising game takes forever. :smallannoyed:

[imp_fireball]

That wouldn't work.

Kratos attempting to use the Masamune would end...badly.
There's a very good reason why Sephiroth is the only one who can successfully use that thing without having it turn on him at the worst possible time.
Cursed sword is cursed...:smallannoyed:

Admitedly there's nothing stopping him from taking Cloud's sword instead...


Or using his own sword... which is actually an axe (I think).

Anyway, swords are totally ghey and phallic. Axes FTW.

[Fan]

Yuffie's 16. Cloud, Aeris and Tifa are 21, 22, and 20, respectively. Not teens, but still kids. Still, there was a talking dog and a stuffed doll in there. :smalltongue:

Also he has a point, that chocobo raising game takes forever. :smallannoyed:

Cid, Barret, and Vincent however are in their upper 30's (Vincent a bit more..).. and seeing as my main party was Barret, Vincent, Cloud.. I think it's safe to say you can go through the game without SEEING a teenager... especially considering that Yuffie is optional.

Also, Cait Sith be a remote controlled doll.. meaning that he's also actually in his 30's.

Red XIII is 48 (!)...

The sheer LACK of teenager means that the Emo teenager bid.. is completely invalid.

[warty goblin]

Or using his own sword... which is actually an axe (I think).

Those...items that Kratos wields are in no way swords, and are much closer to what you'd get if you asked a five year old to draw a sword based solely on a very brief description. They aren't particularly closer to being axes either.

Not that the thing Seph uses is any better.

[Starfols]

Cid, Barret, and Vincent however are in their upper 30's (Vincent a bit more..).. and seeing as my main party was Barret, Vincent, Cloud.. I think it's safe to say you can go through the game without SEEING a teenager... especially considering that Yuffie is optional.

Also, Cait Sith be a remote controlled doll.. meaning that he's also actually in his 30's.

Red XIII is 48 (!)...

The sheer LACK of teenager means that the Emo teenager bid.. is completely invalid.

My main party was Yuffie and Red XIII, and sometimes Cait Sith. :smallredface:

But yeah, most characters aren't emo teenagers, (well, not teenagers at least :smalltongue:) I don't think that's what he was trying to say is all.

[Fan]

My main party was Yuffie and Red XIII, and sometimes Cait Sith. :smallredface:

But yeah, most characters aren't emo teenagers, (well, not teenagers at least :smalltongue:) I don't think that's what he was trying to say is all.

Hell, there's a legitimate LACK of emo in that game.. Unless you count being depressed about your wife (to be) dieing, you being turned into a monster, and a soul devouring, body warping monster being encoded into your DNA Emo.

Hell, he even gets over THAT in Dirge of Cerberus.

Cloud.. He's never really been depressed.. He just got mind raped by the torrent of souls in the Life Stream. In fact, he even has GAR moments. Like when he DRAGS HIMSELF UP SEPHIROTHS blade to stab him with the Buster Sword in Last Order, and then when he beats a severe case of mind rape with the Power of his love for Tifa.

[Demons_eye]

Cid, Barret, and Vincent however are in their upper 30's (Vincent a bit more..).. and seeing as my main party was Barret, Vincent, Cloud.. I think it's safe to say you can go through the game without SEEING a teenager... especially considering that Yuffie is optional.

Also, Cait Sith be a remote controlled doll.. meaning that he's also actually in his 30's.

Red XIII is 48 (!)...

The sheer LACK of teenager means that the Emo teenager bid.. is completely invalid.

Teenager is a wrong term but kid would fit to a "T" and while they are binding gods, that is to say forcing the gods to give them power, Kartos is killing gods. If these kids that are binding gods could defeat Sephiroth then Kartos could kill him.

Kartos is a spartan from birth, rises to godhood and then kills most of them. He earns it.

Sephiroth is a punk that was infected at birth with some sort of super cells. Trained to be the best solider and goes on to do everything he does in the 24-ish games of FF. He got lucky.

Kartos represents the raw power of Greece's mythos and he is/was human with the never give up/die hard/**** you mentality. He wont give up, he will just smash things with his fist till its dead.

Sephiroth is Super-(human?) that lost most his humanity and the ability to win no matter what is throw at him. He is a villain and not likely to win story wise.

[Fan]

Erm.. Binding a God to your will is a LOT more difficult than killing one... especially considering how you have to fight beings who had slain said Gods in order to get the crystalized SOULS of said Gods...

That, and by the way damage is modified, and dealt.. It's a fair game to say the protaganists are amplifying the damage the Gods deal with their own power...

Also consider that, Jenova, and Seph are supposed to be MANY magnitudes more powerful than ODIN the Lead God of the Norse Pantheon (and considerably more Bad Ass than anyone in the Greek Pantheon... and who would eat Zeus for breakfast.), and that Seph's super nova attack is more powerful than the Gods of Fire, Ice, Wind, and The World Serpent Leviathan's attacks.

Meaning that EVERYTHING Kratos has fought.. has already been bound to the will of the 1 on 1 case weaker than Seph main characters.

Which means.. Since Seph can kill any of the main characters aside from Cloud with a decent amount of assurance... That he is a magnitude above Kratos.. especially considering all the advantages he has in the realm of Speed, prowess (he beats trained soldiers all the time... from what I've seen of GOW the enemies fight on a basis of "THROW BEEG THINGS!", and "SMASH PUNY HUMAN!".. never have I ONCE seen a fight with any degree of sword play involving any level of complexity. )

This isn't even accounting for the fact that he can just call down Meteor, or Ultima the cliff face he's on so he falls to his death.. and if he tries to stick his swords into the rock. Ultima that rock too. Hell Quadra Magic + Ultima + Mime.

[Demons_eye]

Erm.. Binding a God to your will is a LOT more difficult than killing one... especially considering how you have to fight beings who had slain said Gods in order to get the crystalized SOULS of said Gods...

Well that's your opinion and your entitled to it.



That, and by the way damage is modified, and dealt.. It's a fair game to say the protaganists are amplifying the damage the Gods deal with their own power...

Damage in one game =/ damage in another.



Also consider that, Jenova, and Seph are supposed to be MANY magnitudes more powerful than ODIN the Lead God of the Norse Pantheon (and considerably more Bad Ass than anyone in the Greek Pantheon... and who would eat Zeus for breakfast.), and that Seph's super nova attack is more powerful than the Gods of Fire, Ice, Wind, and The World Serpent Leviathan's attacks.

Where did you find this at?



Meaning that EVERYTHING Kratos has fought.. has already been bound to the will of the 1 on 1 case weaker than Seph main characters.

When has a Greek god ever been bound by anything other than their word witch is not that good in the first place?



Which means.. Since Seph can kill any of the main characters aside from Cloud with a decent amount of assurance... That he is a magnitude above Kratos.. especially considering all the advantages he has in the realm of Speed, prowess (he beats trained soldiers all the time... from what I've seen of GOW the enemies fight on a basis of "THROW BEEG THINGS!", and "SMASH PUNY HUMAN!".. never have I ONCE seen a fight with any degree of sword play involving any level of complexity. )

Kratos is a spartan, trained from birth and survived many battles to his old age. The way you throw around these soldier make me think they are high powered mooks.




This isn't even accounting for the fact that he can just call down Meteor, or Ultima the cliff face he's on so he falls to his death.. and if he tries to stick his swords into the rock. Ultima that rock too. Hell Quadra Magic + Ultima + Mime.

Seems to be a one trick pony with a neat hand stand for when his first trick stops working.

[Fan]

That's not a opinion. Any idiot can stab something to kill it. It takes REAL power to make it bow to your will, and chain it forever as a willing servant into a piece of colorful glass.

As for how I get this information. Damage output. Odin's base damage at a healthy magic stat is significantly less than Seph's at the end of the game when he's shirtless, and on foot... Let alone the Damage of Super Nova, or Ultima which he uses in Sephier mode.

Seeing as he has more power.. he easily outclasses Odin.. As for how I get that he's stronger than Zeus. Well, he has limitless Pre Cog up to the moment of his death, Grungir is the Spear of Heaven.. something much better than some lightning bolts, and he's shown to be more powerful than Thor... who happens to be able to wrestle with Leviathan the World Serpent.

The BIG threat of Zeus's biggest enemies was to stack some Mountains on top of each other, and come up to smack them around a bit.

Odin's biggest enemies are beings literally capable of such feats as well as burning the Earth to Ash.

Thus Seph > Odin > Zeus > Kratos without PLOT POWER.

[Demons_eye]

That's not a opinion. Any idiot can stab something to kill it. It takes REAL power to make it bow to your will, and chain it forever as a willing servant into a piece of colorful glass.

Again opinion. Some gods you can only bind, you cant kill. These are the gods that are chained in the depths of people minds looked away in ten billion prisons with no keys to let them out. Binding is easy, controlling is easy, killing? Not easy.

Every Greek god was free to do what he or she wished. They were bound only by word and, even then, that did not mean they would keep it. Any god that could be bound and abused is pretty much pathetic in my books.



As for how I get this information. Damage output. Odin's base damage at a healthy magic stat is significantly less than Seph's at the end of the game when he's shirtless, and on foot... Let alone the Damage of Super Nova, or Ultima which he uses in Sephier mode.

That's the game designers opinion. When they remade what ever they made into there games they said "Well I think hes about this." For all they know Odin is all powerful and can smite Sephiroth with one whack of his staff. They chose not to because it did not fit the game. They did not want Odin to do that so they made him incapable of doing it.

I will also restate power in one game is not the same in another. Or halo wins at every thing as Master Chief can just assassinate everyone.



Seeing as he has more power.. he easily outclasses Odin.. As for how I get that he's stronger than Zeus. Well, he has limitless Pre Cog up to the moment of his death, Grungir is the Spear of Heaven.. something much better than some lightning bolts, and he's shown to be more powerful than Thor... who happens to be able to wrestle with Leviathan the World Serpent.

You don't know that though. The lighting bolt maybe able to smoke anyone. Anything in that game is designers opinion and does not mean squat.




The BIG threat of Zeus's biggest enemies was to stack some Mountains on top of each other, and come up to smack them around a bit.

So if the no one in the Greek mythos have the power to destroy worlds they must be weak?



Odin's biggest enemies are beings literally capable of such feats as well as burning the Earth to Ash.

Odin's biggest enemy is a battle that he is going to lose. He can not win it. Period.



Thus Seph > Odin > Zeus > Kratos without PLOT POWER.

[Fan]

By your logic, every thing in GOW is also the Game designers opinion.. and means nothing meaning you can put it at whatever you want.

That makes VERY little sense, and is basically saying "Whatever facts you present. I'm going to dismiss as opinion, despite it being reasonable, and based on canon fact."

You have no concrete debasement for my facts. If you do, then please show them to me through FACT, not on weather or not you like the character, or think X is opinion.

[Demons_eye]

By your logic, every thing in GOW is also the Game designers opinion.. and means nothing meaning you can put it at whatever you want.

Never said it wasn't. They based it on a mytho they had to have some truth in the matter but it was all game designers opinion.




That makes VERY little sense, and is basically saying "Whatever facts you present. I'm going to dismiss as opinion, despite it being reasonable, and based on canon fact."

Game design is opinion. No chance in hell any day of the week Sephiroth beats Odin in anything. Odin is more crafty, smart, and powerful. He would trick Sephiroth out of all his clothing before killing him but in Sephiroth's world Odin is less powerful, because the designer wanted to include Odin but make him full power.




You have no concrete debasement for my facts. If you do, then please show them to me through FACT, not on weather or not you like the character, or think X is opinion.

Your facts are hes stronger, faster, can use Spell X, and such. Give me a weight limit, a speed limit, something that says Kratos could not jump up eat the mentors damage/not reflect it back, and still fight.

[Fan]

The thing is. His limit is undefined, but the limits of ONE of his sword strikes is.. Slicing through 100 Meters of diamond hard steel, and flinging buildings in addition to Nuking the Planet.

For speed, he moves faster than the human eye can see, which is about .857 seconds for a defined sight of somethings movement, or 70 FPS if we want computer terms to be bandied about.

Kratos never moves faster than the eye can see. Ergo Seph is faster.

As for RAW STRENGTH. Seph in base form cuts through hundreds of meters of steel, and flings buildings.. Kratos stands in the jaw of a Hydra with SIGNIFCANT effort (quick time event = the equivalent of a stunt.), and tosses some swords pretty far. Again, given to Seph.

Magical Power. Admittedly Kratos has some nice spells.. but Shield... makes them irrelevant, and the haste spell for Seph.. makes the speed difference even larger. Then there is Meteor which.. is a attack so much larger than anything Kratos has ever had directed at him, and is considerably larger than anything the Golden Fleece has been unable to block in addition to being soul stealing when it hits you.

In all areas.. Kratos is behind.

[Revlid]

Fan, would you kindly explain to me how it is that in Advent Children Sephiroth was beaten down by Cloud on his own, who is (by all accounts) at best a mildly-impressive failed super soldier?

Or, at the height of his power in the game itself, he was taken down by three out of the following -
* A failed super-soldier
* An underage ninja
* A boxer
* A tiger
* A stuffed animal
* A pilot
* A vampire
* Mr. T

Or how, despite his apparent power, he never manages to personally kill anyone outside of a flower girl, an overweight executive, and some faceless mooks and unarmed civilians?

To be honest, I've seen it before, and I'm entirely sick of this "His power is unmatched in the universe because he's actually the embodiment of awesome itself" bull****. He was just another BBEG with omnicidal delusions of grandeur, and not an overly powerful one by their standards. He was just a supersoldier with a low-powered Eldritch Abomination for an egg donor. That's it.

Now, I'm not saying Kratos' abilities are any less juvenile in their pumped-up-ness, but at least that's canon juvenility. A massive quanity of this Sephiroth stuff is blatant fanwank.

EDIT: And let's put this "Meteor" stuff to rest, shall we?
Meteor, the plot device/doomsday weapon which can destroy all life on the planet, causing a catastrophic reaction in the Lifestream, takes two weeks to hit, and requires Black Materia. Assuming Sephiroth has Black Materia, which most of the time he doesn't, that's still two weeks of fighting to get through. If this thing isn't over in two weeks, some adventuring party will have found the wasteland caused by the fighting and smacked down both of them.

Meteor, the instant-use battle spell, doesn't destroy all life on the planet. In fact, a stuffed toy can survive it, and it's basically an amped up Fire spell with a fancy illusion tacked on.

[drakir_nosslin]

Kratos wins, and here's why:

Kratos: Hero of three games, wins in the end.

Sephiroth: BBEG in <number of games/movies>, loses every time.

I mean, seriously, the odds are fairly stacked against Sephiroth. The antagonist doesn't win. End game.

[Creed]

Sephiroph. I think there should be a FF game with him as the hero he's so badass.Besides Kratos does not always win the game. Not when I' playing at least. Kratos also could'nt get close enough before dying.

[Closak]

Fan, would you kindly explain to me how it is that in Advent Children Sephiroth was beaten down by Cloud on his own, who is (by all accounts) at best a mildly-impressive failed super soldier?


He lost for the following reasons.

-He was using Kadaj's body, In case you haven't noticed deities tend to not have access to their full power when they are manifesting in a mortal.

-He was being overconfident and so sure that Cloud couldn't hurt him that he kept toying around until the Omnislash came.

And even then he wasn't really hurt by it, he just lost his avatar and presence on the physical plane.
The actual being is perfectly fine, he just can't act on the physical plane at the moment.


Or, at the height of his power in the game itself, he was taken down by three out of the following -
* A failed super-soldier
* An underage ninja
* A boxer
* A tiger
* A stuffed animal
* A pilot
* A vampire
* Mr. T

Gonna have to make some corrections here.

* A Super-soldier that while technically a failure ultimately came out stronger than the actual super-soldiers in every way.
* The princess of Wutai and arguably the best ninja in the world despite being underage (Heck, she outdoes several adult ninjas from other media by a lot)
* A master Martial Artist with super-strenght.
* This "Tiger" is a member of a warrior race who's existence is dedicated to protecting the planet.
* The stuffed animal is a remote controlled robot made by ShinRa with some of the most advanced technology they have.
* Mister pilot is a dragoon, excuse me while i cower when he jumps dozens of feet into the air and lands on my head with a spear with enough force to make Bahamut, king of dragon-kind flinch.
* The "vampire" is not a vampire, he's just a vessel for 4 very powerful and extremely dangerous demons, he also used to be a Turk.
* Mr T has a gun instead of a right arm and successfully led a terrorist organisation against a corporation that literally rules the world for quite a while before things went south.


And Sephiroth was using most of his strenght keeping Holy back.
The fact that he could restrain the planet's ultimate defense mechanism and STILL have enough power left to pose a significant threat says a lot.

[Revlid]

He lost for the following reasons.

-He was using Kadaj's body, In case you haven't noticed deities tend to not have access to their full power when they are manifesting in a mortal.
Actually Word of God (see: The Reunion Files) states that Sephiroth is more powerful in Advent Children than ever before. So, your statement is clearly untrue. Sephiroth, at the most powerful he's ever been, was beaten by a mortal. An enhanced mortal, to be sure, but Kratos is very definitely stronger, tougher, more ruthless, more experienced, and more powerful than Cloud, even without his veritable army of artifacts.


-He was being overconfident and so sure that Cloud couldn't hurt him that he kept toying around until the Omnislash came.
1. And he wouldn't toy around with Kratos... Why?
2. The Omnislash is slashing at him a bunch of times with swords. It's not exactly a manuever totally foreign to a god of war.

So the thing we can take away from this is that Sephiroth, at his most powerful evar, can be OH-KOed by a Limit Break.


And even then he wasn't really hurt by it, he just lost his avatar and presence on the physical plane.
The actual being is perfectly fine, he just can't act on the physical plane at the moment.
So he's basically Voldemort at the start of the Harry Potter series. Only he's trapped inside the Lifestream. And he needs Jenova cells to come back, none of which exist, post-Advent Children/in Ancient Greece.

Kratos is far more efficient. He just beats the crap out of hell and leaves.

[Comet]

Kratos is far more efficient. He just beats the crap out of hell and leaves.

Now, I don't have much to add in terms of the actual VS, but I do have one thing that's been bothering me for a while now...

I've never played God of War properly. In the games, does Kratos actually do the whole 'get killed, rape hell, climb back up' thing with any frequency? I was under the impression that it was largely a plot thing that happened maybe twice or so, and even then with significant effort on Kratos' part. In other words, a Game Over is still a Game Over.

Correct me if I'm wrong, everyone, but it doesn't quite seem that either one of these characters can be said to be immortal on the virtue of just being able to climb back up because they're so awesome. Sure, they can come back from the dead, but it takes a load of time and effort that is nowhere near trivial.

Raziel from Soul Reaver on the other hand - there's a guy who literally comes back from the dead in about five minutes by ripping his way out of the spirit realm. I'm sticking with him from now on :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

I've never played God of War properly. In the games, does Kratos actually do the whole 'get killed, rape hell, climb back up' thing with any frequency? I was under the impression that it was largely a plot thing that happened maybe twice or so, and even then with significant effort on Kratos' part. In other words, a Game Over is still a Game Over.


From what I read, I think the frequency is dependent on how much you suck at playing it...it sounds like a minigame you have to play upon dying, where the reward for completion is a respawn...

[Zevox]

I've never played God of War properly. In the games, does Kratos actually do the whole 'get killed, rape hell, climb back up' thing with any frequency? I was under the impression that it was largely a plot thing that happened maybe twice or so, and even then with significant effort on Kratos' part. In other words, a Game Over is still a Game Over.
I've only played the first God of War game, but Kratos does this once in that. Ares learns that Kratos has acquired Pandora's Box, which is what he needs to kill Ares, and hurls a massive spike all the way from Athens to where Kratos is at the temple retrieving the box, impaling him and killing him. Kratos falls into Hades, grabs onto a ledge before he hits the river Styx, and fights his way back up to the surface. Not a terribly long section of the game, but not exactly an easy one either.

Of course, the net effect is still more or less what Garrus said about Commander Sheperd in Mass Effect 2. Kratos was killed once, and all it did was piss him off. Or in his case, piss him off even more, since he doesn't seem to have a setting where he isn't pissed off.

Zevox

[Tirian]

He also descends into Hades very briefly in the beginning of GoW2, and from what I've heard of GoW3 he spends enough time in the Underworld to kill everything that moves down there. Don't know from Chains of Olympus.

As much as I still think that this is a no-fight and that a guy who graphically eviscerated everything sacred and profane in the history of Greek Mythology is not going to be slowed down by some badanshi with an amusingly long sword, I think that Kratos has to be killed by a cheap shot in a cutscene to win the Get Out of The Underworld Free card. Even in BBEG boss fights, getting killed is Game Over.

[Flickerdart]

He also descends into Hades very briefly in the beginning of GoW2, and from what I've heard of GoW3 he spends enough time in the Underworld to kill everything that moves down there. Don't know from Chains of Olympus.

As much as I still think that this is a no-fight and that a guy who graphically eviscerated everything sacred and profane in the history of Greek Mythology is not going to be slowed down by some badanshi with an amusingly long sword, I think that Kratos has to be killed by a cheap shot in a cutscene to win the Get Out of The Underworld Free card. Even in BBEG boss fights, getting killed is Game Over.
Good news: cheap shots in cutscenes is Sephiroth's number one way of killing.

[Tirian]

Good news: cheap shots in cutscenes is Sephiroth's number one way of killing.

You're not even counting all the cheap shots that didn't even make it into the cutscenes. (I took what I thought was a fairly honest list of the body count back here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8198199&postcount=13).) Of course, the fanboys will remind us that that wasn't really Sephiroth.

To balance out all of the blah blah blah holding back the power of Holy blah blah blah manifesting as a mortal, let's put Kratos up against Sephiroth from Kingdom Hearts 2, where he actually is a very real challenge. But it's still putting Kratos against someone with great speed, a devastating chain attack, and flight, and that's nothing he doesn't do on a regular basis. I wouldn't mind watching that fight, but to be candid my main interest would be in the quicktime events at the end in which Sephie's wing is torn off, his hair is shorn, and his sword is broken in half so that the whole thing can be buried where the sun doesn't shine.

[Oslecamo]

You know, if this was being done in the gaming forum, Sephiroth would be the winner on the simple basis that he can fly, Kratos cannot, so Sepiroth just drops rocks from the air untill Kratos either dies for good or is buried on rocks.

Of course, that would demand Sepiroth to have at least half a brain to work with. Considering that his favorite strategy passes by swinging oversized swords and taunting his oponents untill he gets defeated, chances are he'll get in Krato's chains range.:smalltongue:

[chiasaur11]

* Mr. T


That's your answer, I suppose.

Of course, any fight without Mr. T participating?

Yeah. That's evidence somebody (who isn't Mr. T) is overrated.

[Closak]

Fun fact.

Mr T is a mama's boy, and he pities da fool who ain't one.

End result: Sephiroth has Mr T's approval in this matter.

Other end result: People are indirectly calling Mr T a wimp due to being a mama's boy.

Let's pity da fools who insult Mr T every time they use the words mama's boy in a negative context.
Like when they use it as an excuse for calling Sephiroth bad things.

The meme's strike back...:smalleek:

[Primal Fury]

You know, if this was being done in the gaming forum, Sephiroth would be the winner on the simple basis that he can fly, Kratos cannot, so Sepiroth just drops rocks from the air untill Kratos either dies for good or is buried on rocks.

I forget... What was it that Kratos was able to do with the Wings of Incarus? :smallconfused: Oh that's right! Fly. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Kratos could also most likely jump up the rocks as a quick-time event.

[Demons_eye]

Kratos could also most likely jump up the rocks as a quick-time event.

Sound too badass, should have been in the game.

[Closak]

He better have some way of fire-proofing himself then.

Wouldn't be very fun to jump up those rocks only to have your feet burned of in the process.

...Get fire-proofing before trying that stunt, seriously.

Wait what's that, you went through all that trouble to jump up those rocks only to have him teleport away before you could attack? Well crud :smallannoyed:
Friggin teleportation...

[Fan]

Fan, would you kindly explain to me how it is that in Advent Children Sephiroth was beaten down by Cloud on his own, who is (by all accounts) at best a mildly-impressive failed super soldier?

Or, at the height of his power in the game itself, he was taken down by three out of the following -
* A failed super-soldier
* An underage ninja
* A boxer
* A tiger
* A stuffed animal
* A pilot
* A vampire
* Mr. T

Or how, despite his apparent power, he never manages to personally kill anyone outside of a flower girl, an overweight executive, and some faceless mooks and unarmed civilians?

To be honest, I've seen it before, and I'm entirely sick of this "His power is unmatched in the universe because he's actually the embodiment of awesome itself" bull****. He was just another BBEG with omnicidal delusions of grandeur, and not an overly powerful one by their standards. He was just a supersoldier with a low-powered Eldritch Abomination for an egg donor. That's it.

Now, I'm not saying Kratos' abilities are any less juvenile in their pumped-up-ness, but at least that's canon juvenility. A massive quanity of this Sephiroth stuff is blatant fanwank.

EDIT: And let's put this "Meteor" stuff to rest, shall we?
Meteor, the plot device/doomsday weapon which can destroy all life on the planet, causing a catastrophic reaction in the Lifestream, takes two weeks to hit, and requires Black Materia. Assuming Sephiroth has Black Materia, which most of the time he doesn't, that's still two weeks of fighting to get through. If this thing isn't over in two weeks, some adventuring party will have found the wasteland caused by the fighting and smacked down both of them.

Meteor, the instant-use battle spell, doesn't destroy all life on the planet. In fact, a stuffed toy can survive it, and it's basically an amped up Fire spell with a fancy illusion tacked on.

I shall explain to you how he is better than Kratos, not with opinionated statements, but with scenes, and evidence via canon videos.

Exhibit A (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=qI0NLSMYbDg&feature=related): Moving at speeds faster than the human eye can see. Which means, far faster than anything Kratos has ever exhibited. Seph manages to keep up for the first part, but under a constant barrage of that speed, and power... even Kratos would've fallen.

Exhibit B (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=J9XO8DoF4D8&feature=related), Dexterity, and weapon prowess: Ability to wield, with skill, and use a weapon larger than himself in both width, and height whilst being attacked from every direction, while in the air, and to deflect bullets with a fair amount of ease.. judging by the muzzle size, and the large bore (indicating a larger caliber bullet) of the rotating firing mechanism. I'd put each bullet at about .75 caliber, and at the muzzle velocity of a about 300 meters / second... and since he blocked every shot that puts his reaction time FAR above anything Kratos has EVER displayed in any game, even during cut scenes.

Exhibit C Tenacity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upmW7r4mEf0): Being impaled through the chest by a blade many times the size of his torso, and as tall as his torso, and then having the balls to PULL HIMSELF UP THE SWORD... and then surviving with it still inside him. This is for both Cloud, and Sephiroth. Oh wait, didn't the EXACT SAME THING kill Kratos in game? Well. Since we have both their canon limits for damage taking, and Seph can tank hits that Kratos gets 1HKO'd by that means he wins this again.


Among those exhibits are also evidence of Sephiroth's ability to A: Disperse Energy attacks non chalantly with his sword.. said Energy attacks have shown capacity to slice through hundreds of meters of reinforced steel designed for taking massive explosions. The ability to survive in a envrionment, without dying, that turns super soldiers to ash, and crystalizes the souls of GODS.

Couple that with Sephiroths own ability to take the BEST of a entire generation of Super soldiers two on one, and again demonstration of his swords ability to deflect magic, cut through hundreds of meters of steel.

For proof of the above, see Exhibit D. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vofVLqz8XQ)

Now, compared to the Hydra battles, the battle with the cyclops, and the battle with Medusa.. Kratos cannot match this speed. At all. The strength displayed is far beyond anything displayed even in GOW III, and his swords ability to cut magic that explodes buildings, and survive being completely immolated in something that looks a awful lot like a fusion reaction... and do so without the merest scathe upon his clothing, or a single burnt hair.

It is my belief, that even without materia. Sephiroth has outclassed Kratos in every area through simply being stronger, and more tenacious. His enemies call upon powers more potent than the Greek Gods displayed in the game, and he can tank the hits fairly solidly.

Kratos, as tough as the man is, loses in every possible fight, and even if he comes back. Sephiroth is one Curaga from full health once more... giving him no chance no matter how many times he comes back. This is not accounting for the shield materia, which gives Sephiroth COMPLETE immunity to Kratos's physical attacks, Sephiroths own ability to further buff his speed, and completely stop Kratos, or even Ultima, a attack too massive to reflect with the golden fleece, and which would arguably turn Kratos to ash.

That my friend, is not Fanwank, but canon fact supported by video's, and in game representations. I also find your tone rude, and not conducive to a civil conversation. I have been generally cordial with the other side, even offering compromises on issues we don't agree on so that way things work out better. So please, try to be a little more kind with your posts. It's unbecoming of a nice man like you to degrade yourself with such a filthy tone.

[Revlid]

I shall explain to you how he is better than Kratos, not with opinionated statements...
Ah, so you do have some new tricks! :smallwink:


Exhibit A (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=qI0NLSMYbDg&feature=related): Moving at speeds faster than the human eye can see. Which means, far faster than anything Kratos has ever exhibited. Seph manages to keep up for the first part, but under a constant barrage of that speed, and power... even Kratos would've fallen.
...
The video quality there is terrible, so I could be mistaken, but I'm reasonably certain that's Cloud moving at blur-speed, not Sephy. Which makes this a totally invalid point.

Counterpoint to Speed
Exhibit A: Kratos killed the God of Speed by cutting off his legs. He then stole his boots.


Exhibit B (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=J9XO8DoF4D8&feature=related), Dexterity, and weapon prowess: Ability to wield, with skill, and use a weapon larger than himself in both width, and height whilst being attacked from every direction, while in the air, and to deflect bullets with a fair amount of ease.. judging by the muzzle size, and the large bore (indicating a larger caliber bullet) of the rotating firing mechanism. I'd put each bullet at about .75 caliber, and at the muzzle velocity of a about 300 meters / second... and since he blocked every shot that puts his reaction time FAR above anything Kratos has EVER displayed in any game, even during cut scenes.
Er... I'm pretty sure that's Cloud again. Masamune, at least, certainly isn't wider than Sephiroth (though it comes close, skinny bugger that he is).

Counterpoint to Weapon Skill:
Exhibit B: Kratos wields two oversized cleavers - these would be difficult to use normally. He wields them on the ends of two very long chains. This would normally be suicidal for a warrior in heavy armour - Kratos is all but naked, and never ever cuts himself using these weapons.
His skill is such that he can also use giant hammers, oversized gauntlets, hook and dagger chains (on fire and electrical respectively), spears, bows, and heads, all without missing a beat.
Throughout his (notably long and experienced) lifetime he was the foremost warrior in the Spartan military, something which consisted of the original supersoldiers, above and beyond the rest - and then he got a divine upgrade from the God of War himself.
And then he killed the God of War and became the new one. Skill with weaponry is not an area in which Cloud or Sephiroth have Kratos beat, and he beats out both of them in terms of ruthlessness, savagery, and experience.

Counterpoint to Blocking:
Exhibit C: Kratos has on multiple occasions blocked someone looking at him, as well as the death-curse of a god. This with an armlet, as opposed to a sword the size of a small car.


Exhibit C Tenacity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upmW7r4mEf0): Being impaled through the chest by a blade many times the size of his torso, and as tall as his torso, and then having the balls to PULL HIMSELF UP THE SWORD... and then surviving with it still inside him. This is for both Cloud, and Sephiroth. Oh wait, didn't the EXACT SAME THING kill Kratos in game? Well. Since we have both their canon limits for damage taking, and Seph can tank hits that Kratos gets 1HKO'd by that means he wins this again.
Again, that's Cloud. Please, stay on topic. Thus far you've not been opinionated, you've just been arguing Cloud vs Kratos, which is an entirely different (and rather more interesting, given the parallels between the two) thread.

1. That was a sword specifically designed to drain Kratos' powers and kill him, that he willingly and deliberately impaled himself on.
It's an entirely different scenario to Sephiroth, who is sent into a coma by a single stab from a level one mook, and later is permanently killed by being slashed at a lot in mid-air.
2. He got better pretty quickly.

Counterpoint to Tenacity
Exhibit D: Kratos goes to hell. He fights his way out. Multiple times. Kratos has his soul dragged out by red-hot hooks. He pulls it back in. Kratos is swallowed by the father of the gods. He cuts his way out.
Kratos is tough and strong enough to do this (http://godofwar.wikia.com/wiki/File:Cronos-Smush-Kratos.jpg). Pulling a Lurtz doesn't compare.

Also, is that even canon? That's not how it happened in the game, and the game is the first port of call for canon. I'm calling stylisation shenanigans on this one.


Among those exhibits are also evidence of Sephiroth's ability to A: Disperse Energy attacks non chalantly with his sword.. said Energy attacks have shown capacity to slice through hundreds of meters of reinforced steel designed for taking massive explosions. The ability to survive in a envrionment, without dying, that turns super soldiers to ash, and crystalizes the souls of GODS.
You're up against a series that killed off entire pantheons, Fan. Capitalising "GODS" won't win you any real points here.


The strength displayed is far beyond anything displayed even in GOW III, and his swords ability to cut magic that explodes buildings, and survive being completely immolated in something that looks a awful lot like a fusion reaction... and do so without the merest scathe upon his clothing, or a single burnt hair.
Well, I can't speak for Kratos' hair, but he certainly survived Ares' death at point-blank, which ended in a nuclear-looking explosion. As for strength, well, see the Cronos fight above.

And frankly, between Supernova and the other cutscene-magic bollocks that shows up in Final Fantasy, the appearance of an attack makes little impression on me anymore. It's a big fireball that looks like a smaller version of the sun. The sun, by the way, that Kratos killed the living embodiment of. By pulling his head off.

However, I will concede one point here, which is that Sephiroth's clothing is clearly of a much higher quality and durability than Kratos'. There's not many tailors that could get leather to survive a fusion reaction.


His enemies call upon powers more potent than the Greek Gods displayed in the game
Er, such as? The Greek Gods, in game, have basically wiped out most of the human race, come the end-game, simply by dying. Natural disasters on a par with Meteor are the stuff they hold back, Holy-style, just by existing.


Kratos, as tough as the man is, loses in every possible fight, and even if he comes back. Sephiroth is one Curaga from full health once more... giving him no chance no matter how many times he comes back. This is not accounting for the shield materia, which gives Sephiroth COMPLETE immunity to Kratos's physical attacks, Sephiroths own ability to further buff his speed, and completely stop Kratos, or even Ultima, a attack too massive to reflect with the golden fleece, and which would arguably turn Kratos to ash.
So why didn't he do that when my party of a stuffed doll robot with a megaphone, an underaged girl with a pinwheel and a tiger with a hairclip took him on?

Please not I don't actually expect you to ever concede, or even admit a single point - you never have in the past when defending every FFFan's wet dream. It's just interesting to argue.

[Reverent-One]

Revlid, I believe Fan is bringing up Clouds skills because you yourself asked him how Seph lost to Cloud, a "mildly-impressive failed super soldier", one on one.

[Mando Knight]

Well, I can't speak for Kratos' hair, but he certainly survived Ares' death at point-blank, which ended in a nuclear-looking explosion.Gods are made of nuclear-grade explodium (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MadeOfExplodium), didn't you know? That's one of their sources of power.:smalltongue:
And frankly, between Supernova and the other cutscene-magic bollocks that shows up in Final Fantasy, the appearance of an attack makes little impression on me anymore. It's a big fireball that looks like a smaller version of the sun. The sun, by the way, that Kratos killed the living embodiment of. By pulling his head off.
http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/halolz-dot-com-godofwar3-couragekratos-ripoffgodshead.jpg

[Fan]

Well.. that picture has certainly convinced me Kratos has him in the strength department... That guy... is BIG...and Kratos.. I thought it was a joke picture at first about some really big guy looking stupid... then I noticed who was between his fingers. :smalleek:

As for what impaling him... I wasn't refferencing the Blade of Olympus.. I was calling up the spike that Ares threw that killed him originally.

As for the Armlet.. It's not able to reflect attacks that are suitably massive, or even attacks from strong enough (IE. Boss.) enemies, and this can be disabled by a simple dispel spell.. which would take away his handy dandy golden armlet. You can't use magical properties of a item to reflect anti magic.

Also.. Hermes is NOT the God of Speed. He has some flying sandals. He's the god of messengers, athletes, and thieves. He manages messages, and guides the dead... He has no purview of explicit speed in his domains.


As for weapon skill. Show me.. where he has ever had a sword duel with any one of true competence. Even the Ares fight of the first game included only very few examples of ANY sword skill aside from one or two sword locks. It was mostly just continuous swinging, and hitting each other upside the head continuously rather than anything belaying REAL sword skill. At least in the battles I linked they've shown the ability to parry ranged attacks with their swords.. Kratos has to rely on the golden do hickey to even deflect arrows.

Currently.

Kratos: Strength. Big time.

Seph: Speed, tricks, complete invulnerability to Kratos's attacks with shield materia, and the ability to slow Kratos down even farther making his quick time events impossible.

Also. Revlid if you refer to my posts as "Fanwank" or a "FFFAN's wet dream" again. I'm going to report you.

[Mando Knight]

As for what impaling him... I wasn't refferencing the Blade of Olympus.. I was calling up the spike that Ares threw that killed him originally.
1.) He got better.
2.) Ares was the old god of war. And had really annoying spider-leg-things. And Kratos killed him and took his title.

As for the Armlet.. It's not able to reflect attacks that are suitably massive, or even attacks from strong enough (IE. Boss.) enemies,Really? Kratos pretty much needs to use the Golden Fleece to deflect the attacks of a large number of God of War II and III bosses. Like Zeus's lightning.
and this can be disabled by a simple dispel spell.. which would take away his handy dandy golden armlet. You can't use magical properties of a item to reflect anti magic.
It's made from the Golden Fleece... an artifact. How many of Sephiroth's dispels wipe out Cloud's crew's equipment?

Also.. Hermes is NOT the God of Speed. He has some flying sandals. He's the god of messengers, athletes, and thieves.
The flying sandals are a symbol (or magic item, whatever) of his speed. The god of messengers is the messenger of the gods because he's the fastest. And he's fast. (Would link to a playthrough video, but it's too brutal to be allowed on this forum)

As for weapon skill. Show me.. where he has ever had a sword duel with any one of true competence. Even the Ares fight of the first game included only very few examples of ANY sword skill aside from one or two sword locks. It was mostly just continuous swinging, and hitting each other upside the head continuously rather than anything belaying REAL sword skill. At least in the battles I linked they've shown the ability to parry ranged attacks with their swords.. Kratos has to rely on the golden do hickey to even deflect arrows....Almost all hack-n-slash games end up like that. Kratos is fast and brutal with his blades, and he pulls off nifty tricks with them. That's about as close as you can get to real skill in a beat 'em up (which needs to allow for chaining attacks and optimizes for speed of chaining and such) as compared to the predefined motions of an RPG (which can stick with moves always starting from a ready stance and make them as absurd as they want).

Katas don't necessarily show you the swordsman's true skill. Sword locks aren't skill. Ever seen a fencing bout? Attacks are fast and furious, with swords rarely ever pushed up against each other for a long period of time. Example: Olympic Saber (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLoHSvMJdXk)
Seph: Speed, tricks, complete invulnerability to Kratos's attacks with shield materia, and the ability to slow Kratos down even farther making his quick time events impossible.
If Sephiroth can use shield materia to make himself invulnerable to all physical weapons, then how is it that Cloud defeats him by sticking a sword into him a good dozen times?

[Fan]

Because they don't USE materia in Advent Children. In fact, the only ones who DO are the failed clones.

They also don't use materia in the cut scenes of the games. However, the Shield Materia is IN The Northern Crater where Sephiroth hangs out, so I assume it's fair to give him the things he has on his home turf, and the things he throws at you with his telekinesis. I have used no other materia that he did not explicitly have on him, or in his base in the game.

Shield Materia gives you complete immunity to physical attacks.. meaning that with Seph's own nigh immunity to the magics of Kratos's level (*Wrath of Posideon.. is pretty wimpy.).. That he still comes out on top.

[littlebottom]

ive said it before ill say it again, the fact sephiroth loses overall is completely due to the fact his the bad guy in the game.

in final fantasy, good triumphs over evil, its just how it is. so even though cloud technically couldnt beat sephiroth, he does anyway, just because they cant go "well sephiroth would win... lets kill the hero of the game over 30 hours into the game on the third disc!" same in the film, sephiroth is doomed to lose any deciding battle against the good guys.

so we have to ignore the fact he lost against cloud, just for the same reason if it was sephiroth vs one of the guys kratos kills, because they were destined to die, because you playing the main character.

[Starfols]

Hell, there's a legitimate LACK of emo in that game.. Unless you count being depressed about your wife (to be) dieing, you being turned into a monster, and a soul devouring, body warping monster being encoded into your DNA Emo.

:smallconfused:

It appears we have very different definitions of emo.


As for what impaling him... I wasn't refferencing the Blade of Olympus.. I was calling up the spike that Ares threw that killed him originally.
Still, he survives something better later.

As for the Armlet.. It's not able to reflect attacks that are suitably massive, or even attacks from strong enough (IE. Boss.) enemies, and this can be disabled by a simple dispel spell.. which would take away his handy dandy golden armlet. You can't use magical properties of a item to reflect anti magic.
Looks like it can suitably block Masamune size objects though.


Also.. Hermes is NOT the God of Speed. He has some flying sandals. He's the god of messengers, athletes, and thieves. He manages messages, and guides the dead... He has no purview of explicit speed in his domains.
Point. Kratos killed Nike yet?


As for weapon skill. Show me.. where he has ever had a sword duel with any one of true competence. Even the Ares fight of the first game included only very few examples of ANY sword skill aside from one or two sword locks. It was mostly just continuous swinging, and hitting each other upside the head continuously rather than anything belaying REAL sword skill. At least in the battles I linked they've shown the ability to parry ranged attacks with their swords.. Kratos has to rely on the golden do hickey to even deflect arrows.
Still. In the CC cutscene you showed us earlier, the most complicated swordplay was all the flipping and such that they were doing, and Kratos does that all the time. Weapon locks and dodging projectiles were the majority of it.

complete invulnerability to Kratos's attacks with shield materia, and the ability to slow Kratos down even farther making his quick time events impossible.
I don't see how those materia are incompatible with the armlet thingy. Also, most spells, if I remember, have a physical kratos-dodgeable component to them.

[Fan]

Erm.. In game.. It just has a clock spawn out of the enemies chest, and spin above his head... It doesn't actually touch him, or anything you can really.. block.. I have no idea how that would be deflected.. but if you have a explaination for it.. I'm game.

As for shield. Well. Shield Materia is a personal protection that emerges as a techni colored greenish barrier in a sphere around the person it's cast upon.. so It can't really be blocked, or deflected.. It'd have to be pierced.. and if Omni Slash can't pierce it... I highly doubt a Attack from Kratos can.

[Starfols]

Erm.. In game.. It just has a clock spawn out of the enemies chest, and spin above his head... It doesn't actually touch him, or anything you can really.. block.. I have no idea how that would be deflected.. but if you have a explaination for it.. I'm game.

As for shield. Well. Shield Materia is a personal protection that emerges as a techni colored greenish barrier in a sphere around the person it's cast upon.. so It can't really be blocked, or deflected.. It'd have to be pierced.. and if Omni Slash can't pierce it... I highly doubt a Attack from Kratos can.

Yeah, I'm guessing if he can dodge gaze attacks and such, he can somersault away from the clock. :smallamused:

Hmm..I suppose he would have trouble penetrating the bubble. It does have a time limit, though, so I guess Kratos could pick up the bubble/use nonlethal grapples until it runs out or something. :smallconfused:

[Mando Knight]

Because they don't USE materia in Advent Children. In fact, the only ones who DO are the failed clones.

They also don't use materia in the cut scenes of the games. However, the Shield Materia is IN The Northern Crater where Sephiroth hangs out, so I assume it's fair to give him the things he has on his home turf, and the things he throws at you with his telekinesis. I have used no other materia that he did not explicitly have on him, or in his base in the game.

Shield Materia gives you complete immunity to physical attacks.. meaning that with Seph's own nigh immunity to the magics of Kratos's level (*Wrath of Posideon.. is pretty wimpy.).. That he still comes out on top.
1.) I was talking about the game. Doesn't Sephiroth die mostly because Cloud can actually use that six-foot meat cleaver?
2.) Shield Materia has its limits. There's absolutely no way it can be used to grant Sephiroth total immunity to melee attacks for all time. It's like saying Zeromus can't lose because he can just Big Bang Shot the enemy.
3.) Sephiroth never uses Shield in his Bizarro or even Safer forms, nor in Crisis Core. How is it justifiable that he uses it now against Kratos if he did not or could not against Cloud?

[Fan]

In Crisis Core he has the ability to use Materia. Shield happens to be a 5 minute walk from his little doom sanctuary.. I think it's entirely fair to give him a Materia he can just send a minion to grab for him.

I see no reason not to let him use Materia. If you don't let him use Materia. Then I say we take away Kratos's Golden Fleece, and the blades of exile.

Let's see him fight Seph with his mundane meat cleavers on chains.

[Starfols]

Fisticuffs between Kratos and Seph would be hilarious. :smallamused:

[Mando Knight]

I see no reason not to let him use Materia. If you don't let him use Materia. Then I say we take away Kratos's Golden Fleece, and the blades of exile.

Let's see him fight Seph with his mundane meat cleavers on chains.

But does Sephiroth ever use Shield Materia? He might not have the ability to use that kind of materia, or he may be too arrogant to use it, or whatever. If he never uses an ability, then he can't have it. No, Sephiroth cannot summon a black hole inside Kratos's heart, Kratos can't turn water into wine, neither one can shoot donuts out of their earlobes, nothing that they haven't been shown to be able to do. Kratos has the Golden Fleece, and he uses the Golden Fleece frequently. Show me one scene or listing where Shield Materia is on Sephiroth's list of usable Materia (sure, even Dissidia or Kingdom Hearts, if he's got it in those and it does the same super-block thing), and I'd let it slide.

[Fan]

He has the ability to use materia, and DOES in crisis core, hell even the same type of materia.. the materia is also IN the Northern Crater, the place he put a SHIELD over, and one that was only broken by an attack from a Metropolis sized canon powered by 7 cold fusion grade reactors, and with a central firing focus that could, and did power a cold fusion grade reactor to the point where it over clocked and went BOOM!

It?s safe to say Kratos has nothing that big, and Seph, by word of god, wouldn've kept that barrier up until meteor hit... meaning that Kratos still loses by death to Metropolis sized meteor, and continues to die due to vaccum.

I?m just giving him the portable items in his base, and even then I?m not giving him the megalixirs and elixirs that he also has lying around his house/lair, or the auto phoenix downs.

[Mando Knight]

He has the ability to use materia, and DOES in crisis core, hell even the same type of materia.. the materia is also IN the Northern Crater, the place he put a SHIELD over, and one that was only broken by an attack from a Metropolis sized canon powered by 7 cold fusion grade reactors, and with a central firing focus that could, and did power a cold fusion grade reactor to the point where it over clocked and went BOOM!

But can he throw up that shield in a combat situation? It's one thing to activate a long-term spell when you're prepared for it, but if we stick both of them in a room to fight to the death, Sephiroth doesn't have the time to create something like that.

Don't count anything lying around in his base, only count what he has on hand and uses. Does he use Auto Phoenix Down or Megalixirs? When you fight him, does he throw up a Shield spell so he can trim his nails before he finishes charging up Heartless Angel? The spell in-combat also fails after a while. Can he keep replenishing the MP cost for it and expend the same resources of time and MP to attack?

If we counted everything that laid across the road that Kratos passed by or had access to at one point in time, he'd also have the Titans and/or the gods of Olympus. You don't want to mess with a man who turns into a skyscraper-sized monster with spider-horse tentacles and a body made of water and lightning. Or his mountain-sized grandmother made of tree and rock.

[Fan]

It materialised within a few moments of Seph getting meteor, so I?d say he can throw it up once, but if it be broken that?s how the shield materia is formed.

So, I?d say yes, yes he can. It just tends to take up a lot of MP. Hell, he also has Jenova on him, and the complete body of Jenova would be a end game boss for Kratos alone.. I mean just look at Jenova death!

[Comet]

:smallconfused:

It appears we have very different definitions of emo.


Again, I lost all the interesting things to say about the topic itself a long time ago so I'm just going to cling onto this thing for a minute.

I always imagined emo as being depressed and static even though the things that are going wrong in your life could be fixed with relative ease.
Cloud and friends, on the other hand, drop into a dark mindset because everything in their life is actually going horribly wrong and they don't see any way to fix things. It's okay to feel bad if things are actually going to hell.
Besides, they get over it. And then they kick ass.

So, yeah. Sorry about the lack of helpfulness here, everyone.
Though I have to say that I see no reason whatsoever why Sephiroth wouldn't be able to block/dodge Kratos' attacks. The guy doesn't thit that hard, at least from what I've seen.

[Zen Monkey]

I think it's funny that the FF fanboys imagine an effeminate anorexic as the pinnacle of war and strength. Sephiroth looks like he'd strain his dainty shoulder just trying to lift his impractically large sword. While recovering, he'd write bad poetry about his mother, claiming it had important religious symbolism.

I guess that's gets handwaved by "OMG, MATERIA, EMO, COOL CLOAK!1!"

[Sholos]

I think it's funny that the FF fanboys imagine an effeminate anorexic as the pinnacle of war and strength. Sephiroth looks like he'd strain his dainty shoulder just trying to lift his impractically large sword. While recovering, he'd write bad poetry about his mother, claiming it had important religious symbolism.

I guess that's gets handwaved by "OMG, MATERIA, EMO, COOL CLOAK!1!"

And I thought I'd never see someone unfamiliar with the concept of super strength and super speed on a forum with a heavy emphasis on fantasy gaming.

In fact, there's a lot more bias towards Kratos here than there is Sephiroth, which I guess is to be expected, because Kratos is new and shiny and a lot shallower and thus easier to geek out over.

[Octopus Jack]

This would be a tough fight, Sephiroth has speed and reach but to be fair masemune isn't actually that good, if i recall Edge gets it in FFIV and can wield another sword with it.

Kratos has sheer power and if he got close to Sephiroth then he would kill him very quickly.

What happens when we throw Dante in aswell?

[Mando Knight]

This would be a tough fight, Sephiroth has speed and reach but to be fair masemune isn't actually that good, if i recall Edge gets it in FFIV and can wield another sword with it.
Edge's Masamune is an entirely different blade from Sephiroth's. Most notably, Edge's is pretty much a normal-sized katana of excellent quality, whereas Sephiroth's has a length of "however long the artist feels like making it." Which varies between 7 and 20 feet long. (rough estimate)

Kratos has sheer power and if he got close to Sephiroth then he would kill him very quickly.
If it's a straight-up fight with no magic or invulnerabilities, just swords, skill, and strength, Sephiroth basically has one chance before Kratos moves far too close and mauls him, and the blades of chaos/Athena/exile tend to be used as means for grappling a weakened opponent and getting closer or swinging them around with their ridiculous chains.

[Tirian]

In fact, there's a lot more bias towards Kratos here than there is Sephiroth, which I guess is to be expected, because Kratos is new and shiny and a lot shallower and thus easier to geek out over.

In fact, it is to be expected because Kratos fights people like Sephiroth on a regular basis in his games and quite literally dismantles them.

I'll grant you that gaming has this sort of power inflation built into it and it's not Sephiroth's fault that he is weaker than Kratos. But you might consider that what you're calling "bias" is actually objectivity from people who have enjoyed both game series and still observe that Kratos killed Zeus and Zeus outclasses Sephiroth in any way you would want to measure power and ability.

[Lostintransit]

Well I think I should throw in some little tid bits....

Firstly, both combatants are very powerful in their respective games, each is shown to have numerous special abilities and powers that make them a formidable opponent.

However The Original Poster (Armin) had the following conditions to the fight and no others:

On one corner, we have "SEPHIROTH!" On ther corner we have Kratos, the slayer of the Olympian gods. Sephiroth's feats include having an awesome theme song, and having access to the Meteor Spell. Sephiroth is the best SOLDIER of Midgar, and also a powerful black magic user.

Kratos, is well, Kratos, he's killed Ares, Hercules, Helios Zeus and who who knows who else. Kratos has many magical powers and weapons. He even crushed Hercules'es head with his fist.

Now from this we can take that for this fight sephiroth is presumed to have metor and his other magics (as per the bit in bold), and casting the metor requires the use of the black materia. We can also take that Kratos has his selection of magical powers and weapons (also as per the bit in italics).

So this says to me that sephiroth is given access to all his all his game magic, which includes things like Wall, Supernova, Pale Horse, Deen and Shadow Flare, all of which have various in game effects (ranging from 1/2 damage from all attacks, inflicting all status effects and so forth). While Kratos has the Golden Fleece, the Blades of Exile and all his other Magical weapons and artifacts.

On this terms alone, I see the fight either being a tremendous stalemate (due to various reflection/immunity powers) or a bitter hard won victory for sephiroth (mainly due to his speed). But seeing how no other specifics have been given the most likely outcome that I would pick is an endless draw.

Some Frequent points made:
Metor vs planet Kratos is on: We have no specified fighting ground, so this could be in a gods realm for all we know where metor would be less useful, but if on a planet then Kratos is indeed doomed.
Golden Fleece Reflection: This all depends on the player controling Kratos reactions, so it is a hard one to say that he could always pull of this move (play on the harder difficulties to see the effect of slower reactions gone wrong!)
Sephiroths Speed: As Sephiroth uses a different system for speed than a realtime fighting game it is hard to gauge exactly from the original game how fast he moves. However during combat his ATB bar is effectively always full allowing him to cycle chain attacks quicker than even a hasted party member, only group haste allows for equal actions per time.

I feel that if there were some more guidelines and specifics from the Original Poster then we could gauge this fight alot more effectively.

Regards


EDIT: Spelling! D'oh!

[ArlEammon]

I feel that if there were some more guidelines and specifics from the Original Poster then we could gauge this fight alot more effectively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js9U4wzvH88

On Kratos v.s speed...

[Lostintransit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js9U4wzvH88

On Kratos v.s speed...

Well, if your allowing crisis core, then I give this to sephiroth after a long hard slog (If no Metor). Kratos is good but sephiroth is just a much faster opponent.

Oh and that means your allowing sephiroth to have full access to his magic then? He doesn't have to hold back holy or some such? What about where they are fighting? Kratos couldn't cut up Metor so if it's on a planet he simply dies from a massive lethal explosion and whenever he 'crawls out of Hades' he just goes 'pop' in space and dies again.

Not really a fair fight!

In a non 'Ko the battlefield' fight I'd still give it to Sephiroth due to near perfect mobility flight and super speed. But it would be alot longer fight, and alot more awesome to watch!

Regards


EDIT: Darn E button!

[chiasaur11]

Well, if your allowing crisis core, then I give this to sephiroth after a long hard slog (If no Metor). Kratos is good but sephiroth is just a much faster opponent.

Oh and that means your allowing sephiroth to have full access to his magic then? He doesn't have to hold back holy or some such? What about where they are fighting? Kratos couldn't cut up Metor so if it's on a planet he simply dies from a massive lethal explosion and whenever he 'crawls out of Hades' he just goes 'pop' in space and dies again.

Not really a fair fight!

In a non 'Ko the battlefield' fight I'd still give it to Sephiroth due to near perfect mobility flight and super speed. But it would be alot longer fight, and alot more awesome to watch!

Regards


EDIT: Darn E button!

You thought Sephiroth could beat the Justice League.

So, doubting.

[Lostintransit]

You thought Sephiroth could beat the Justice League.

So, doubting.

Actual when I posted that, it was an experiment to see if people actualy read the OP post for the stipulation of the fight..... It proved me right in that regard (They don't usually! :smalltongue:) I pre-stacked the fight following the 'How to list a Vs thread' guide. Most people actually just read the title and didn't bother reading what was posted as the stipulation for the fight.:smallbiggrin:

Anyway, based on what the Op said on the fight and the sources he has allowed I still stand by my answer of an epic fight that eventually ends in sephiroths favour unless they are fighting on a planet, in which case its an easy win. (So I'm tempted to discount it or call it a rigged fight)

Regards

[ArlEammon]

But Kratos has Hermes'es boots.... I guess I did post the whole entire video didn't I?

[Boo]

But then... Sephiroth is already faster than what was shown by Kratos in GOWIII. In addition, since materia/magic seems to be allowed, Sephiroth could potentially use haste.

In almost every scenario (banning plot), I believe Sephiroth would win simply due to his greater dexterity and speed. In terms of strength, it's debatable as to who is stronger (regardless of body frame).

[chiasaur11]

Actual when I posted that, it was an experiment to see if people actualy read the OP post for the stipulation of the fight..... It proved me right in that regard (They don't usually! :smalltongue:) I pre-stacked the fight following the 'How to list a Vs thread' guide. Most people actually just read the title and didn't bother reading what was posted as the stipulation for the fight.:smallbiggrin:


So, wait.

You were stacking in the JLA's favor, then arguing Sephiroth?

Either that, or you somehow don't know how to stack a fight.

(Just looked over the thread again. Glad I did. Some embarrassing spelling errors on my part. Glad to have a spell-checker in browser these days.)

[Fan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js9U4wzvH88

On Kratos v.s speed...

Okay, I'm DEFINITELY going to have to say that Hermes is the Slowest Fast Boss EVER. He WAITS for you to catch up to him, multiple times, and stops to make jabs CONSTANTLY, and he works himself into corners almost repeatedly. Couple that with his severe lack of ability to actually damage you... ugh. Worst God of Messengers, and Travel EVER.

I'd have to say that Hermes is so much weaker than Sephiroth it's like comparing a toddler to a Olympic Sprinter.

That, and the boots of Hermes aren't even a constant speed boost, so even with the speed boost shown.. He's STILL slower than Sephiroth even just going by what's shown in Crisis Core.

Kratos's flight also leaves him vulnerable from what's shown there, so he loses in aerial combat as well.

So far.. The only thing he has Seph in is strength... and brute strength is far from enough to actually win a battle.

[ArlEammon]

Hm... I thought so, if this were a Democracy, I"d vote Sephiroth for Anti-President.

[Slayn82]

Look at Kratos relative speed using the boots, he can chain combo attacks while enemies out of his attacks are slowly falling in the background(actually they are falling at normal speed, Kratos is just so much faster). So, actually Kratos speed is at least on par with Cloud on Omnislash, and that has proved reliably to be good enought to get the job done. Now, get that speed backed by Kratos strenght, and Sephirot would get a new level of pain. Sorry guys, but Sephirot is still bound by Cloud's and the other team members overall power.

I agree that Irish greek god looks a little weak, but there is one thing: He was trying to get Kratos worn down before the fighting. Unfortunatelly, he HAD LESS STAMINA THAN KRATOS.

Also, those GODS of FF, well, frankly, they are a bit on the weak side. Other than Knights of Round, we could very well say that they are weaker than an orbital laser from a Killer Sattelite (Barret's Limit Break), or focused air bombardment (Cid's Limit Break), to not say anything about the others. Materias are just condensed pieces of lifestream obtained from Mako Factories, or naturally ocurring on some sites due to certain extraordinary circunstances.

And if you give Sephirot the Shield Materia, just because its hanging around, well, so we could argue that the golden fleece should at least qualify as a ribbon for Kratos, should we not?

And Meteor, well, i still maintain my point. Kratos learns about the power of the planet being able to counter it, and the will of the living things, and whatever else. Then, he smashes the head of the poor guy that said him those things, and go around killing the planet before the meteor, just to despise Jenova and Sephirot.

[Starfols]

I don't see it. Hermes looks like he's going at least as fast as Sephiroth. :smallconfused: The only thing that I see special in CC is his energy blade shooty ability that can cut through virtual steel, and his slow falling.

[Fan]

Look at Kratos relative speed using the boots, he can chain combo attacks while enemies out of his attacks are slowly falling in the background(actually they are falling at normal speed, Kratos is just so much faster). So, actually Kratos speed is at least on par with Cloud on Omnislash, and that has proved reliably to be good enought to get the job done. Now, get that speed backed by Kratos strenght, and Sephirot would get a new level of pain. Sorry guys, but Sephirot is still bound by Cloud's and the other team members overall power.

I agree that Irish greek god looks a little weak, but there is one thing: He was trying to get Kratos worn down before the fighting. Unfortunatelly, he HAD LESS STAMINA THAN KRATOS.

Also, those GODS of FF, well, frankly, they are a bit on the weak side. Other than Knights of Round, we could very well say that they are weaker than an orbital laser from a Killer Sattelite (Barret's Limit Break), or focused air bombardment (Cid's Limit Break), to not say anything about the others. Materias are just condensed pieces of lifestream obtained from Mako Factories, or naturally ocurring on some sites due to certain extraordinary circunstances.

And if you give Sephirot the Shield Materia, just because its hanging around, well, so we could argue that the golden fleece should at least qualify as a ribbon for Kratos, should we not?

And Meteor, well, i still maintain my point. Kratos learns about the power of the planet being able to counter it, and the will of the living things, and whatever else. Then, he smashes the head of the poor guy that said him those things, and go around killing the planet before the meteor, just to despise Jenova and Sephirot.

No.. That makes no sense what so ever. It's based purely on speculation rather than actual fact, and science when it comes to the rate of projectiles, and movement..

There is no fact in this above statement... just more statements about how Kratos is so bad ass, and his abilities that don't do X... should do X.

Shield Materia is WHAT HE USED to make that Giant shield that took the energy of a SMALL STAR (If we count 7, or 8 Cold Fusion Grade Reactors over clocking as enough for that.) to break.

I don't think Kratos can ever put up enough energy to get through that shield. Never. In his entire life span could he POSSIBLY get through that shield. And since in game, it only hinders attacks directed at the user, and a set area around the user... Seph can still attack Kratos with it up. As per IN GAME EVIDENCE rather than pure speculation, and saying "Well, since Seph has Power X, in canon stated FACT, we should give Kratos this because I say so."

Now on to the topic of speed... Hermes isn't really going that fast, even in the second fight it still takes him seconds to cross the VERY small arena he's fighting in.. while the cannon they were fighting on in CC is larger than most Towns. In fact, length wise, it's longer than Kalm. A town about the size of Albany, or Tallahasse, and Seph crosses the distance in the time it takes me to blink, and that's if he leaps it.

[Mando Knight]

Okay, I'm DEFINITELY going to have to say that Hermes is the Slowest Fast Boss EVER. He WAITS for you to catch up to him, multiple times, and stops to make jabs CONSTANTLY, and he works himself into corners almost repeatedly. Couple that with his severe lack of ability to actually damage you... ugh. Worst God of Messengers, and Travel EVER.
That's not slowest fast boss ever, that's stupidest fast boss ever (which he isn't, though he ranks up there). Hermes is a lot faster than Kratos, but is an arrogant idiot, so he plays around with Kratos rather than grabbing a weapon and using the speed properly to kill him or running away to lure him into a real trap. Or running away to get away. However, if Kratos wasn't the kind of man that would subsist solely off of RAGE and VENGEANCE for days on end, he wouldn't have been able to chase Hermes down after fighting his way to get to Hermes, then have enough will and fortitude left to keep going.

Other than the fact that he's the protagonist of a video game, and thus must have infinite endurance.

Hermes isn't slow, either. He moves rather fast, but stops to taunt you and make sure you're following him... kinda like a dog that wants you to play "chase me" or "keep away." His problem is that he underestimated the most brutal man of the most brutal land, and was given an endurance limit unlike 90% of everyone else.

Kratos's flight also leaves him vulnerable from what's shown there, so he loses in aerial combat as well.
Kratos does not fight using the Wings of Icarus. He fights in the air by stabbing something with wings, beating up whatever he needs to beat up, then ripping off the wings of whatever he was using to get up there.

[Starfols]

No.. That makes no sense what so ever. It's based purely on speculation rather than actual fact, and science when it comes to the rate of projectiles, and movement..

*snip*
I don't think that's what he's saying. He sounds like he's trying to merge the systems.

Now on to the topic of speed... Hermes isn't really going that fast, even in the second fight it still takes him seconds to cross the VERY small arena he's fighting in.. while the cannon they were fighting on in CC is larger than most Towns. In fact, length wise, it's longer than Kalm. A town about the size of Albany, or Tallahasse, and Seph crosses the distance in the time it takes me to blink, and that's if he leaps it.

Umm.. I've watched that video 4 times now, and I don't see how that cannon could possibly be that big. If I were really generous, I'd give it 2/3 of a kilometer at most. Maybe Sephiroth is several stories tall? :smalltongue:

Also, I don't see him 'crossing' it, so much as traversing it while fighting. :smallconfused:

[Fan]

Look at the Cannon compared to the town in the game... It's easily longer than the town of Juno, and almost as thick as a tower about 5 kilometers high.

It is as long as I'm saying it is. Look at it in the game.. I just got through replaying that part of the disc to double check it's size. The only "scale" that's off in that game, is the size of the player's vehicles, and such with the exception of the Submarine, and that's due to a nessecity of being able to see your characters. The towns are to scale with the envrionments, and the Cannon is longer than the Town of Juno, and half as thick.

His ability to cut through it. Is where I got the cut through meters of steel ability he had, in addition to the ability to fling buildings.

[Starfols]

Look at the Cannon compared to the town in the game... It's easily longer than the town of Juno, and almost as thick as a tower about 5 kilometers high.

It is as long as I'm saying it is. Look at it in the game.. I just got through replaying that part of the disc to double check it's size.

Unfortunately my PSP is bricked :smallfrown:.

I was looking at it in the cutscene. There's a nice perspective shot where it shows the three fighting and zooms out to show the rest of the tower, and their figures compared to it are sizable enough to be measurable, and it's not that big compared to them. It sounds like the perspective of the cannon from game to cutscene has been butchered a bit. :smalleek:

Also, even just looking at him fighting, his hands and body aren't moving impressively fast.


Juno
I must conclude Juno is an excessively small town.

His ability to cut through it. Is where I got the cut through meters of steel ability he had, in addition to the ability to fling buildings.

I guess that makes sense, but it's more of an energy attack than actual cutting. It's virtual anyway, so the environment might also be different. Where does he 'fling' the building?

[warty goblin]

Er... cold fusion reactor is a descriptor of type of generator, not of the generator's output. Also a small star is a fairly meaningless term when it comes to power generation. A white dwarf is a small star that technically isn't generating any energy at all, it's just (very) slowly cooling off. A black dwarf has cooled to the point where it is no longer really even radiating much*.

Even something that generated as much energy as a white dwarf radiates is not something you would want on a planet. The waste heat would ensure a nice melty texture to all the rocks in the vicinity**.


*The universe might not be old enough for black dwarfs to have come into being yet.

**Cold fusion does not mean no waste heat. It means you can fuse hydrogen/helium 3 without the absurd temperatures at the core of a star.

That said, based on the video I'd still give the win to Sephiroth. Notice that although Kratos beat Hermes, he still took hits, which fortunately for him did not bisect him. Sephiroth's, based on the video, would.

[Boo]

Kratos does not fight using the Wings of Icarus. He fights in the air by stabbing something with wings, beating up whatever he needs to beat up, then ripping off the wings of whatever he was using to get up there.

Since we're assuming no aids, this makes him worse off.

And Sephiroth's abilities are not enhanced in the virtual training room. That would be stupid in any universe.

[Starfols]

And Sephiroth's abilities are not enhanced in the virtual training room. That would be stupid in any universe.

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that the environment may act differently. Genesis can cut the beams in half with a sword, you know. :smallamused:

[Slayn82]

Yes, i'm trying to merge the systems to get a basis of comparation. Physics, for instance, is considered by comparing the different speeds of falling of your average mook in god of war at the common instances and when Kratos is using the Boot's of Hermes powers. So, yes, Kratos speed with the Boots (if not before) is at least as good as Cloud's speed (im taking the Advent Children movie as a basis of comparisson, as its stated that it was Sephirot's peak of power).

The Golden Fleece being equivalent to a ribbon point is because in a lot of versions of the myth, it has powerfull healing properties.

Personally, i consider Sephirot a very fast opponent, but neither in any media he is that fast as you claim. Neither in FF7, CC, Advent Children, Kingdom Hearts or Dissidia. Well, both Garland and Kefka are a lot more nastier enemies in Dissidia than Sephirot, but i'll not deviate.

Also, Masamune's blade curse probably would have one hell of a trouble trying to compete with all the other curses over Kratos, i must say. Actually, given Kratos priorities, i guess it would actually tag along just fine with him. Of course, it would hardly be usefull.

As a last point to consider, please evaluate the effect that Kratos can obtain over one god's soul. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqa38-ikt5U&feature=related)

[Mando Knight]

That said, based on the video I'd still give the win to Sephiroth. Notice that although Kratos beat Hermes, he still took hits, which fortunately for him did not bisect him. Sephiroth's, based on the video, would.
Other than that Kratos wears no armor, why would it? He can take a hit or two from Zeus swinging the god-killing Blade of Olympus at him.

Since we're assuming no aids, this makes him worse off.Makes Sephiroth worse off if he gets in striking range: Kratos has ridiculous reach with the chains, and he uses them frequently like Batman's grappling gun. Although Kratos doesn't usually fight a lot of flying enemies sturdier or smarter than basic harpies...

[nyarlathotep]

Just a point Dissidia might not be the best measure of Sephy's power as it was a crossover game, and if we allow those in Sephiroth of was defeated by Goofy, Donald, and Sora, and Kratos has been beaten by Talim. :smalltongue:

Now the Shield materia is one of those plot devices that's just an "I win" button for the villain in the early parts of the story, and if you allow that then I see no reason that Kratos can't just use the strings of faith to make it disappear and make the meteor miss.

[Fan]

Shield Materia (which he does use.. it's a major plot point in game, and why the Midgar Cannon was built.).. pretty much wins this for Seph.

As for his faster than the eye can follow speed, I have media for that RIGHT here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=dKDHz3SQ3ZU&feature=related)

The man swings his sword ludicrously fast, teleports instantaenously, and manages to cross the entire height of a stadium in less than a 4th of a second.. which if we go by a real life comparison.. is 48 meters tall. To cross that many feet in that much time you'd need to be moving at 180 feet per second, which gives Sephiroth a approximate speed of 648000 meters an hour, or 402.648 miles an hour . Hell, even if we're generous, and say that they met each other half way there that's STILL 201 miles an hour. Still so much faster than Kratos it's inane.. though this does explain how he gets everywhere in the game without you noticing, or anyone else for that matter.

Thus.. Through SCIENCE! Sephiroth is so much faster than Kratos that it's simply silly. He has no hope of keeping up with that speed. EVER.

[nyarlathotep]

You're ignoring that Kratos literally possesses (or at least did in the second game I haven't played the third) the threads of fate. Which could easily disperse any such force field, or even make it so that the Materia never formed. If Sephiroth is allowed to use his stupidly over powered and non-game play affecting items so is Kratos.

Really for either of them to use such items is avoiding the purpose of a vs thread. Both are plot driving powers that avoid a fight. I was fairly certain that the purpose of this thread was to discuss which one of them would win if they actually fought each other.

I'm also fairly certain that a fair share of Sephy's speed is actually teleportation.

[Fan]

What? A Barrier Spell is far from anything as stupid as the Threads of Fate.. Which he really shouldn't have ever gotten control of. EVER.

That, and Sephiroth wouldn't have a thread. He's not "Of this world", and being not human.. he doesn't possess a thread in those types of deals. He is literally MADE of Lifestream. There is no "Soul" like there is in Greek Mythology. Your literally everything, and nothing.

You kill materia, you kill EVERYTHING. Including Kratos, and the Threads of Fate.

[nyarlathotep]

I was referring to the barrier materia in particular rather than all materia.

[Fan]

I was referring to the barrier materia in particular rather than all materia.

The thing is.. It's crysatlized souls, meaning that the Threads have already been cut technically, and this is what remerged.

You can't cut what's already been cut with the threads of fate. Once it's done, the threads turn to ash, and even if they don't in GOW Kratos doesn't seem the type to go through a literal eternities of threads to find the congolmerate of souls that make up materia... at least in any reliable media I've seen.

[nyarlathotep]

Or he could just cut the life stream's thread. It seems to be a living entity, and if Sephiroth is not of Kratos's world one would assume the reverse would apply, and Kratos would be unaffected by the loss of the Lifestream.

Even so assuming all of that is irrelevant, if Sephiroth can use the shield materia whenever he wants why didn't he just put it back up a few moments after the cannon blew up his first force field?

[Fan]

Or he could just cut the life stream's thread. It seems to be a living entity, and if Sephiroth is not of Kratos's world one would assume the reverse would apply, and Kratos would be unaffected by the loss of the Lifestream.

Even so assuming all of that is irrelevant, if Sephiroth can use the shield materia whenever he wants why didn't he just put it back up a few moments after the cannon blew up his first force field?

Baiting, he wanted Cloud and Company to come. He wanted to kill Cloud specifically, so he left it down. He likely just put it up initially to make Cloud have to work for it, and to prove his worthiness to be Sephiroth's opponent.

This theory especially fits with all the dialouge in KH, and KH 2 between them.

[Starfols]

here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=dKDHz3SQ3ZU&feature=related)

That looks like that spinny attack move that Kratos uses all the time, only pushing him slightly higher. :smallconfused: Compensating for the camera panning waaay down, they only look like they're 10 feet in the air.

I will concede, however, that Seph can cast a dimension door equivalent. :smallsmile:

[Fan]

Again, my formula's were using actual time frame of the video, the sight of the Colliseum top being under where Seph was floating, and then the given dimensions of the REAL Colliseum.. which Disney said they used for Hercules.. which is the arena shown in Kingdom Hearts there. So again, 402 miles an hour is his speed he uses in combat... that puts Hermes to shame by far.

Sephiroth also technically has the Gravity Materia ( He has it in Disc 2 of the game, and in fact uses it as a blunt weapon to stun Cloud via Telekinesis.) .. So if he has Demi 3, that's a immediate 3/4ths of Kratos's health.. assuming he's at the capped 9999 HP... Seph's attack + his speed means he'd be able to get in at least one hit.. so.. Kratos loses then even without shield materia.

[Starfols]

Again, my formula's were using actual time frame of the video, the sight of the Colliseum top being under where Seph was floating, and then the given dimensions of the REAL Colliseum.. which Disney said they used for Hercules.. which is the arena shown in Kingdom Hearts there. So again, 402 miles an hour is his speed he uses in combat... that puts Hermes to shame by far.
No, look. They're only about 10 feet up. It's just a little hard to see cause of the drrramatic camera angles. :smalltongue:

Sephiroth also technically has the Gravity Materia ( He has it in Disc 2 of the game, and in fact uses it as a blunt weapon to stun Cloud via Telekinesis.) .. So if he has Demi 3, that's a immediate 3/4ths of Kratos's health.. assuming he's at the capped 9999 HP... Seph's attack + his speed means he'd be able to get in at least one hit.. so.. Kratos loses then even without shield materia.

If it hits, and considering Kratos' likely Mblock, it won't. Even if he's not considered a boss for this scenario (as he likely would be), and even if he is forced to stand still instead of dodging/fleece reflecting it (as he is wont to do). Also, he'd probably get a turn in there somewhere, he's not a Mathematician. :smalltongue:

[Fan]

No, look. They're only about 10 feet up. It's just a little hard to see cause of the drrramatic camera angles. :smalltongue:


If it hits, and considering Kratos' likely Mblock, it won't. Even if he's not considered a boss for this scenario (as he likely would be), and even if he is forced to stand still instead of dodging/fleece reflecting it (as he is wont to do). Also, he'd probably get a turn in there somewhere, he's not a Mathematician. :smalltongue:

Well, I'll concede that they do tend to make over use of dramatic camera angles.. It's really inane what they do in video games. It is still freaking fast.

And Again, It all depends on weather or not you classify something as big as Diamond Weapons chest (Demi 3 is that big.), and if you scale that. It makes it as tall as about a 50 story building at it's largest, and we all KNOW how Sephiroth LOVES to throw around big things. [insert obvious compensation joke here].. this is also not accounting for Emerald Weapon.. The Ultra Secret Boss of the Game who you beat to get all the Master Materia's.. Who is bigger than Diamond Weapon and is fully affected by Demi 3. I know because it was one of the only reasons I beat that monster of a thing.

Be that blockable by the Golden Fleece? (That's a serious question. I don't know the upper limits..)

[Zen Monkey]

No.. That makes no sense what so ever. It's based purely on speculation rather than actual fact, and science when it comes to the rate of projectiles, and movement..

This, when used to defend a final fantasy character, is hilarious. I'd like to show examples of where FF fails terribly at science/physics/etc, but there are too many to fit on one of these forum pages. Please elaborate on the science behind an imaginary character who floats around, throws buildings at people, and casts magical spells.

[Drascin]

I'm going with Kratos. Mostly because Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2 showed quite well that Seph might be everything you like, but he utterly sucks at melee combat and has about two mildly threatening attacks :smalltongue:. I mean, you can take four lifebars off him just by blocking and countering in the first one, without the slightest risk to you, and Kratos certainly blocks at least as well as Sora. If we're making this a straight-up colloseum fight - hence no complicated mindscrewing, setting up traps and the like, as he did in FF7, starting the fight up close - Sephiroth is doomed.

[Lost Demiurge]

Heh.

The sheer amount of discussion on this point, and the disagreement within this thread indicates that it'd be a seriously awesome battle.

My money's still on Kratos. But y'know... It could go either way.

[Surrealistik]

I can't believe this has gone on for 8 pages; this is not a contest. Kratos wins. End of story.

[Yora]

But Sephiroth is a tall white haired guy who insults you all the time.

Such characters are too loveable to be defeated by anything. :smallfrown:

[Serenity]

Never played Final Fantasy but...

Does Meteor get cast as one of Sephiroth's in-battle attacks? If so, then if it didn't kill Cloud, no way does it kill Kratos. If not, then it's a cutscene thing requiring some manner of ritual, which means Kratos could disrupt the casting, or redirect the meteor.

[ZeroNumerous]

Never played Final Fantasy but...

Does Meteor get cast as one of Sephiroth's in-battle attacks? If so, then if it didn't kill Cloud, no way does it kill Kratos. If not, then it's a cutscene thing requiring some manner of ritual, which means Kratos could disrupt the casting, or redirect the meteor.

It kills the planet. It doesn't have to kill Kratos, he dies by proxy. And no, it doesn't require a ritual, casting nor can it be redirected or destroyed(they tried). Meteor makes it a double-knockout in Sephiroth's favor at best.

[Lost Demiurge]

::Sighs::

Look. How long does Meteor take to hit once it's cast?

[ZeroNumerous]

::Sighs::

Look. How long does Meteor take to hit once it's cast?

The relevance is little, as it still kills everyone involved in the fight.

[Lost Demiurge]

The relevance is little, as it still kills everyone involved in the fight.

How long? Seconds? Minutes? Hours?

[ArlEammon]

The annoying Sephiroth music causes Kratos to develop supernatural strength capable of shattering the planet they are on. Thus, Kratos wins, since he can attack with Meteor level punches at will.

[Fan]

This, when used to defend a final fantasy character, is hilarious. I'd like to show examples of where FF fails terribly at science/physics/etc, but there are too many to fit on one of these forum pages. Please elaborate on the science behind an imaginary character who floats around, throws buildings at people, and casts magical spells.

Science as in equations used to figure out their speed, and such...

I just did it, and explained it. Obviously science isn't going to be applied to obviously magical things, and we aren't going to be going into too much detail like Thermdynamics, and other things that both sides violate with a janitors broom.

It's more basic things like finding out for 100 % how fast they move, and how fast they swing their weapons.

In that Kingdom Hearts clip.. Seph was swinging FAR faster than any of Kratos's basic attacks even near the end of the game... and to be honest.. comparably... Kratos's air combat sucks compared to Seph's.. He is MUCH MUCH slower in air, and that's really the only place they'll be fighting.

Also, One winged Angel is only annoying if you don't like Latin Opera, or don't Speak Latin yourself.. which is perfectly common, and understandable.. it's just that certain music tends to be better when you can understand it. :smalltongue:

[ZeroNumerous]

How long? Seconds? Minutes? Hours?

Who knows? It never falls in the RPG since, you know, you kill Sephiroth. Lets say days for all it matters.

[Lost Demiurge]

Who knows? It never falls in the RPG since, you know, you kill Sephiroth. Lets say days for all it matters.

Then it's not a factor. One of the two either wins during that time or loses. The meteor gets dealt with after the fact, or it doesn't.

Unless Sephiroth calls the Meteor and runs away... Which I honestly don't see him doing... It's not an issue DURING the fight.

[Fan]

Then it's not a factor. One of the two either wins during that time or loses. The meteor gets dealt with after the fact, or it doesn't.

Unless Sephiroth calls the Meteor and runs away... Which I honestly don't see him doing... It's not an issue DURING the fight.

Sephiroth runs away ALL THE TIME, he's not some idiot who fights needless fights unless there's some personal vendetta to it. If he feels that Meteor could get a job done that he'd derive no personal satisfaction from.. I'm pretty confident he would just float up in the stratosphere for a bit. (Yes I know we're in the stratosphere.)

Also, by canon it was 2 weeks. Seph's definitely fast enough to avoid Kratos for that long simply by swimming in the Life Stream (Which would mind rape Kratos. Nope, not caring how bad ass he is. The only reason Seph doesn't get mind raped is the fact that he has Jenova on him. In fact, I would argue that Kratos is EXCEPTIONALLY susceptible to mind rape in the life stream, considering his murdered family... and this would actually be his wife / child asking him "Why didn't you save us daddy?")

[ZeroNumerous]

Unless Sephiroth calls the Meteor and runs away... Which I honestly don't see him doing... It's not an issue DURING the fight.

Yet again: That's irrelevant. It's still a double-kill even if Kratos kills Sephiroth before the meteor hits. No matter what happens: Everyone dies.

[Lost Demiurge]

Sephiroth runs away ALL THE TIME, he's not some idiot who fights needless fights unless there's some personal vendetta to it. If he feels that Meteor could get a job done that he'd derive no personal satisfaction from.. I'm pretty confident he would just float up in the stratosphere for a bit. (Yes I know we're in the stratosphere.)

Also, by canon it was 2 weeks. Seph's definitely fast enough to avoid Kratos for that long simply by swimming in the Life Stream (Which would mind rape Kratos. Nope, not caring how bad ass he is. The only reason Seph doesn't get mind raped is the fact that he has Jenova on him. In fact, I would argue that Kratos is EXCEPTIONALLY susceptible to mind rape in the life stream, considering his murdered family... and this would actually be his wife / child asking him "Why didn't you save us daddy?")

Hm, point.

Seph's speed and transportation abilities are superior. He could call meteor and stay the hell away from Kratos until it arrived. Be boring as hell, but it's a legitimate tactic and it's similar to what he's done before with Cloud, now that you mention it.

I don't think the Lifestream would mind-rape Kratos, mainly because the issue's come up before. He's dealt with similar memory assaults in the previous God of War games. Hell, Ares tries to break him with replaying the murder of his family. Doesn't work, Kratos bulls through it. And there's that bit in GoW 3 where he's made to feel the guilt of all he's done... ALMOST does the trick, but again, he pulls through. Not that it's a factor unless Kratos dies on Seph's world. Which is bad for EVERYTHING. You do NOT want Kratos in the lifestream. But anyway...

Back to the meteor...

If you give Kratos two weeks to deal with it, and make it so that he can't wander off to go vengeance at someone else and HAS to deal with it, he finds a way to stop the damn thing. Maybe by tracking down an air summon materia, beating the critter until it screams, then stealing Cid's rocket and visiting the meteor in person. Enclosed in his globe of crippled Ki-Rin or whatever, he goes about destroying the meteor up close and personal, leaving only enough to ride down through the atmosphere.

Might blow up a city or a small continent, but the world remains.

[ZeroNumerous]

An idea.

They tried to blow up the meteor in the game. If you fail to stop them, the ensuing explosion is visible from the planet. It fails to destroy the meteor. Even assuming Kratos can get to the meteor: All it'll do is ensure he dies first when it hits the planet.

[Closak]

They kinda tried nuking the thing out of the sky.

It failed miserably.

It only got taken care of once Holy and the entire frikkin Lifestream ganged up on it.

That would be like every single thing that has ever lived or ever will live simultaneously throwing themselves at you full force.

And that is a lot of force.

[Lost Demiurge]

They tried to blow up the meteor in the game. If you fail to stop them, the ensuing explosion is visible from the planet. It fails to destroy the meteor. Even assuming Kratos can get to the meteor: All it'll do is ensure he dies first when it hits the planet.

Yeah, they tried to destroy it with a gun, from a good distance away, I believe? Different scenario.

Things would be different up close and personal, I'm thinking. At the very least, he could use his chains to harness the moon, use it as a counterweight, and steer the meteor off course. Gods and their spawn can DO this kind of thing.

[Fan]

Erm... Let me show you what happens when you blow apart Meteor.. using a Super Nuke.

Absolutely nothing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=9hkcD8DyUO4&feature=related), keep in mind that the entire thing was rigged with normal explosives on top of a Big Materia... which as you just saw blew up a good portion of a object larger than Everest.

Also, Meteor just needs to HIT. If it hits it destroys all the life stream, and once the Life Stream is gone, the planet turns into space dust.

[Closak]

Sure, and have the moon shatter as a result and then have the pieces of it come crashing down and blowing a continent or two in advance while meteor keeps magically homing in on the planet like a target-seeking missile.


Whoops...

Well that was a big waste of time...must get a bigger nuke...


Giant cannon blowing Sephiroth's shield (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyeghInqRAY&feature=related)