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Adrayll
2010-04-01, 10:39 AM
Alright. I'm new to D&D, and even newer to DMing. Apparently, I'm DMing a game of 3.5e starting soon, and I wanted to get a check with you esteemed people as to whether the campaign i'm planning is in general, compelling enough, has the potential right elements. Here's the overview:



The players start out employed as soldiers in a militia in a mid-sized frontier city. They start encountering undead and minor necromancers on a regular basis, and get involved in a plot to eventually take the whole area with undead. They thwart, but don't manage to kill the leader of the cult, who has been training minor necromancers to control undead. (This will be levels 1-3)

After the main battle, which the players may or may not be involved in. Their superior officer introduces them to a delegate from the guild of necromancy. This person reveals that the necromancer is exiled from the guild. They say he will most likely go for a powerful object that is lost inside the ancient, unused citadel of the guild - the Crown of the Host, a crown that, in game terms, multiplies the Hit Dice of undead controllable by the wearer by 5. To stop him, the party must travel to this keep, and fight through traps, rogue necromancers, and residual undead, beating their nemesis to the Crown of the Host. (Levels 4-6)

Plot interlude! Anyone have any ideas? (Level 7-8)

They are informed by a contact in the necromancy guild (who has become the party's patron, since the schools of magic are powerful political parties in my realm) that agents of Nerull (chosen god of the BBEG, but not the guild) have been seen in the vicinity of the Valley of Dragons, which includes the collective boneyard of the dragons of the continent. Realizing that letting the BBEG getting his hands on the skeletons of a relatively unlimited amount of dragon skeletons is a bad thing (I'm thinking that BBEG gets the Crown of the Host, giving me a nasty way to have a big army later). They go to stop him, but the dragons don't want any humans in their valley. (Levels 9-11)

Plot interlude! I'm thinking at this point the PC's will be high enough level to do the wonderland adventure I want. (Levels 12-13)

BBEG escapes on a zombie dragon, and the PCs, depending on their relationship with the dragons at this point, must give chase. Their military patron (The necromancers, "after the fiasco with the dragons" no longer speaks to the PCs) tells them to go north.They proceed far to the north, coming across the society of elves, who are, for the most part in my world, the northern folk, who live in a combination of nomadic tribes and villages. By the time they get there, BBEG has accomplished two things: He's conquered and then raise a decent army of undead (This is available in the rules [He's about a 15th level Dread necromancer who will have a total charisma of about 28 (+9). With the Crown, he can control a total of 65HD of undead a level]) And to make an even bigger army, he's started training the eviler inclined elves to be neromancers, and by now has a few decent lieutenants (it took the PCs 1-2 months to catch up). They must stop his rampage. (Levels 14-16)

BAM! BBEG escapes south and there is a massive land war going on, with the Necromancers )who switched sides), led by Guild Leader BBEG are fighting against the coalition of nations. After getting in contact with the military, they are personally requested by the king to search for the Guardian of the Heart - and epic level elven cleric of old who supposedly ended a war against a necromantic lord in history they must find him, or the method he used to depose the warlord. BBEG is also sending out minions for the MacGuffin now, and the search culminates back in the Valley of the Dragons, where the PC's tango with BBEG's #2 for the MacGuffin, which is actually a "stasis phylactery". It is activated, and revealed that the "cleric" of legend is actually a necromancer who created an epic-level spell that can break the BBEG's control over his armies temporarily. When this happens the PC's must make their final strike at the BBEG before he creates more armies. (Levels 17-20)




Well, what do you guys think? Would you play that campaign? What does it need?

EDIT: Time rift is needlessly complicated since I ignored something I wrote in the next sentence.

ashmanonar
2010-04-01, 10:50 AM
I'm gonna give you the advice I wish I would have had when I started DMing (4e dming, but that doesn't change anything.)

Don't plan the campaign.

Just throw them into a situation already in progress, give them a few plot hooks, and let them go. They'll find their own plot hooks, and will in fact somewhat resent being shown a way to go and being forced to take it. Just let them explore.

Planning too far ahead means all of your planning is worthless.

Adrayll
2010-04-01, 10:56 AM
I'm not exactly planning on railroading them to this by the letter. I won't plan encounters too far ahead, but I do want to have something of an idea of where to go. I'll accommodate if it goes differently, but I'm of the belief that by level >10-12, players are just too powerful individuals to have no direction. If you've got the power, circumstances will force you to use it.

Yora
2010-04-01, 11:04 AM
Then I give the opposite advice: Don't start a campaign without planning ahead who the villain is, what he wants to archieve, and what recources he has. :smallbiggrin:

With this as a basic starting point, I'd start planning the first adventure. After the first adventure, I would check if anything the PCs did would have any impact on the villains plan. Then think about what the villain would do to make his original plan work even though the PCs have tried to interfere, and plan the next adventure based on this. Repeat this process for as long as it takes for either the PCs to stop the villain, or for the villain to achieve his goal.

But so far, your idea seems quite good: Necromancers mess around with a horde of zombies and the master necromancer eventually wants to gain control over a large number of dragon skeletons.
One way for the PCs to find him is by checking with the necromancers guild and getting infos from the guild master.
Sounds good to me.

I hate sandboxing. :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-04-01, 11:04 AM
While planning is good: remember the PCs can do things you don't expect so be prepared to change the plan when they do.

But for most part I see no issue with campaign idea. I don't particularly like the time rift thing though.

mastermind
2010-04-01, 11:05 AM
Be aware that PC's will be able to kill villains before their time.

Even look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html).

So be prepared to have extra defenses ready, just in case.


As for plot interlude (7-8) recurring villains are your friend. Revenge is a tasty plot hook. Mmm... even better if you are good with flavor text.

Adrayll
2010-04-01, 11:09 AM
Yeah, the first adventure is relatively a no-brainer to plan, since 1st level characters facing off against an undead specialist have a limited selection of enemies. After that, I'm trying to fit in a bunch of variety while maintaining them. I get in a classic dungeon, a fight against hard-targets (low numbers per encounters) and soft-targets (lots of smaller targets).

I went with the time rift because it seemed the like the best way for BBEG to get some decently challenging enemies together. Wait.... *facepalm* the guild joins him. Now the timerift is redundant.
I'm gonna edit that because it causes too many problems as I actually think it through.

Gnaeus
2010-04-01, 11:24 AM
When including powerful magical items in your campaign (Necromancy crown), remember that such toys have a habit of falling into the hands of PCs. Be prepared for this.

Adrayll
2010-04-01, 11:30 AM
When including powerful magical items in your campaign (Necromancy crown), remember that such toys have a habit of falling into the hands of PCs. Be prepared for this.

O.o Uh oh. I don't like the though of my PC's playing with that many undead. That' actually a really good point. I think I'll make it exclusive for Dread Necromancer, which is the class i'm using for the main baddies. However, with that exception (and the BBEG have a couple of feats from LM) are the extent of the expansions i'm using.

Hey, that give me the idea that if they take it from him, the guild of necromancers can offer to buy if for an absurd amount of money and then have the BBEG "steal" it back.

Thanks for pointing that out, it was a good point.

Elvenoutrider
2010-04-01, 12:10 PM
ON another note, makesure you have things for the pcs to fight besides undead, or the party rogue is going to get really sick of the campaign

Mauther
2010-04-01, 12:14 PM
Overall a pretty good plot. I’ll split the difference between Ashmanonar and Yora and advise a pyramid plot planning design. Start specific, get more broad as you go. Your players will take the campaign in ways that you probably won’t see coming, so I’d keep things loose after the level 10 region. Go ahead and design the antagonists, even start chalking up ideas for good set pieces. But don’t get married to the plan. You may be planning to have the Guild betrayal be a huge deal at level 14, and the party paladin decides around level 10 to take the guild down because he “knows” they are bad. Its amazing how many campaigns shoot of the rails because of inspired/idiotic player ideas. The recurring villain and recurring villain themes are both good ideas, as long as your party doesn’t get sick of fighting undead. I know your planning on changing things up a bit with the encounters, but bear in mind that necromancy heavy campaigns favor some character types over others. You may want to look at small rule changes to balance out perceived weaknesses/strength in some classes (example: rogue vs. cleric).

Also, be careful with the war scenario. Battlefield encounters can be very difficult to run, they are highly attractive to players but are a logistical nightmare. There are several formats to run those encounters, but I would classify that as an advanced DM skill. So be aware your setting yourself up for a challenge. From your writeup, I can’t tell if your actually planning a battlefield encounter, but at level 17 or higher, the characters will be asking to take the field since by the rules as written they can probably wipe out entire armies. So be prepared for that plot turmoil.

Adrayll
2010-04-01, 12:23 PM
I was hoping I could avoid the battlefield by having the King or someone pretty much tell the party to go hunt down the MacGuffin while the army does the army stuff. We don't have a rogue persay at this point (which may make the dungeon portion interesting) but I see what you mean about class balance. Possibly thrown in some magic items for the less-favored classes.

Another potential fix for the PC's carving up armies of undead is start have BBEG show up with a half-dozen or so zombie dragons to jack the EL high enough the party has to avoid the battlefields.

BRC
2010-04-01, 12:24 PM
You can generally assume your players will go after plot hooks you drop, and if you provide them objectives, you can probably assume they will achieve them. Where DM's go wrong is trying to plan the stuff in between, the method by which the goal is achieved.

By this count, be careful about specifically planning more than one session in advance, because you don't know what the PC's will end up with.
There are two bad things a DM can do. The first is to force the PC's to follow the path you planned for them to take. If the PC's want to do something you hadn't though of before, spend no more than thirty seconds asking "Why does this not work" not "How can I make this not work". If you can't think of a reason why it won't work, it's because it probably will, and the least you can do is let the PC's try it.



The second, almost but not quite as bad thing you can do is let the PC's do whatever they want in defiance of common logic.



Some advice: Let the campaign develop. If a particular necromancer who was supposed to die escapes, let him come back as a reoccurring villain. If the PC's take a liking to a soldier, let him show up again.


Alright, specifics

You're general theme is this necromancer, stick with that for your Plot Interlude. I'd say this

Now that the PC's have recovered the Crown of the Host, they are told to take it to a secure monastery for safekeeping. The Monastery is tough to get to (as is kind of the point), and they are harried by the Necromancer's minions.
Finally, they get to the Monastery and give the crown to the Monks, who promise to keep it safe. As they leave, they are set upon by some monks.

After a brief misunderstanding, the PC's learn the dire truth. The Necromancer stormed the Monastery a few days ago, killed most of the Monks and replaced them with his minions. Those "Monks" The PC's gave the crown too were working for the necromancer. The survivors fled into the wilderness and are trying to find a way to retake the monastery.

If you want, you can have the PC's lead the assault on the Monastary, only to have the BBEG escape. Otherwise, you could just have the monastery crumble/burn to the ground as somebody (The Necromancer) flies away.

Adrayll
2010-04-01, 01:18 PM
That sounds like an awesome scenario. I hope you don't mind if I use it?

BRC
2010-04-01, 03:43 PM
That sounds like an awesome scenario. I hope you don't mind if I use it?
Go right ahead, that's why I suggested it.

AslanCross
2010-04-01, 04:09 PM
Then I give the opposite advice: Don't start a campaign without planning ahead who the villain is, what he wants to archieve, and what recources he has. :smallbiggrin:

With this as a basic starting point, I'd start planning the first adventure. After the first adventure, I would check if anything the PCs did would have any impact on the villains plan. Then think about what the villain would do to make his original plan work even though the PCs have tried to interfere, and plan the next adventure based on this. Repeat this process for as long as it takes for either the PCs to stop the villain, or for the villain to achieve his goal.

But so far, your idea seems quite good: Necromancers mess around with a horde of zombies and the master necromancer eventually wants to gain control over a large number of dragon skeletons.
One way for the PCs to find him is by checking with the necromancers guild and getting infos from the guild master.
Sounds good to me.

I hate sandboxing. :smallbiggrin:

Same here. I hate not having a plan, and my players tend to just look at me confused when I let them do whatever they want. They want plot, and don't mind not having absolute freedom.

OP, it really depends on what your group's expectations are and what you want as a DM. You have to agree on that before anything else. If the group prefers a sandbox, then go for it. If they stare at you confused like my players do, then go for a plot instead.

Just because you have an idea of the general direction of the story doesn't necessarily mean you're railroading. Railroading is when no matter what the PCs do, something you want (or don't want to) happen pushes through (or doesn't) by the power of plot.

Railroading is when the dragon BBEG is swooping down to kidnap the princess, the wizard PC casts Wall of Force to prevent the princess from being kidnapped, and the dragon BBEG crashes through it and takes her away anyway, or if the PCs want to take a shortcut to their destination but somehow the woods are "too thick" for them to pass through. Simply offer the PCs multiple options---not all of them have to be tempting. Some can be obviously a bad idea.

jiriku
2010-04-01, 04:25 PM
I'd further add that as Dungeons and Dragons is a game that is supposed to feature dragons, your dragon graveyard and dragon skeletons and dragon zombies are a Marvelously Good Idea. Necromancers are also classic villains for the same reason that Coca-Cola is classic -- people keep coming back to the good stuff.

This storyline definitely has potential, and definitely will be fun to play if executed well.

I'll repeat though what others have said, because as a new DM you haven't yet experienced the frosty disappointment of having players shoot your plot to pieces. Players frequently do dumb, unexpected stuff, and they occasionally do brilliant, unexpected stuff. They may insult the guild leader, accidently burn down half the general's army, decide to destroy the crown "just to be safe", or any number of other stupid things. They may also devise some brilliant strategem that completely WINS the campaign at level 9 and there's no way you can avoid it without being brutally heavy-handed. Stuff happens. Just expect the unexpected, roll with it when it happens, and be willing to sacrifice your plans if something more awesome comes along.

I think you're going to do well.

Bibliomancer
2010-04-01, 04:41 PM
ON another note, makesure you have things for the pcs to fight besides undead, or the party rogue is going to get really sick of the campaign

One way to fix this would be to a) give the rogue access to a wand of the Gravestrike Spell from the Spell Compendium (which can, for a total cost of 1050gp, be added fully charged as a hidden part of a weapon sheath), since most rogues have UMD, or b) create a feat that lets the rogue (if you get one) sneak attack undead.

I'm still a moderately inexperienced DM, since I've only run 3 campaigns of about 10-15 sessions each, but I would reinforce the idea that you need to be flexible. In my...let's see...third session ever the party rogue decided to rob the castle, which I hadn't stated out. He managed it (since he was a well-designed halfling with a decent plan), but only with quite a bit of trouble (as would be expected in a somewhat realistic game world).

When it comes to planning ahead, keep Darths and Droids (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0023.html) in mind.

BRC
2010-04-01, 05:17 PM
One way to fix this would be to a) give the rogue access to a wand of the Gravestrike Spell from the Spell Compendium (which can, for a total cost of 1050gp, be added fully charged as a hidden part of a weapon sheath), since most rogues have UMD, or b) create a feat that lets the rogue (if you get one) sneak attack undead.

I'm still a moderately inexperienced DM, since I've only run 3 campaigns of about 10-15 sessions each, but I would reinforce the idea that you need to be flexible. In my...let's see...third session ever the party rogue decided to rob the castle, which I hadn't stated out. He managed it (since he was a well-designed halfling with a decent plan), but only with quite a bit of trouble (as would be expected in a somewhat realistic game world).

When it comes to planning ahead, keep Darths and Droids (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0023.html) in mind.
Or homebrew something. Or have him take the Penetrating Strike class feature, or use a variant critting/SAing rule ( I have a decent one).

Just don't make the rogue useless for the majority of your campaign.


As for Railroading, remember this. Railroading is not saying "There is a wall there", Railroading is saying "There is a wall everywhere BUT there".

The different between Railroading and normal planning is what makes sense. For example, you want the PC's to get inside a castle, you plant rumors about a secret passage and make sure they hear, but the PC's decide they don't want to use the secret passage.
If the PC's decide they want to fight their way into the castle, it's not railroading to warn them against that and have them die horribly if they insist (Depending on the level of the PCs and whose guarding said castle). This is because it makes sense that four people can't singlehandedly storm a Castle.

If the PC's decide to sneak in dressed as servants and get caught, that's not railroading, because you gave them a chance.
If you planned for them to sneak in in disguise and they want to use a secret passage, it's not railroading to say "There is no secret passage", because it makes sense for there not to be a secret passage.

It IS railroading if the PC's decide to sneak in dressed as servants and you don't give them a chance, saying "The Guards know every servant in the Castle by heart" or "There is a magic device that stops infiltrators", it's Railroading, because you are arbitrarily forcing them to use the path you pre-planned.

If you ever find yourself coming up with ways to force the PC's to do things on the spot, chances are you're Railroading.

deuxhero
2010-04-01, 05:18 PM
Reminds me the The South Guard for Battle For Wesnoth.


ON another note, makesure you have things for the pcs to fight besides undead, or the party rogue is going to get really sick of the campaign

Or just let the cutter use his class abilities. You're the DM, just let him do it.

TheYoungKing
2010-04-01, 07:42 PM
They thwart, but don't manage to kill the leader of the cult, who has been training minor necromancers to control undead.


(it took the PCs 1-2 months to catch up)


This is exactly why I would not play your game. You already have outcomes planned out. And if you think players won't notice this, you are dead wrong.

To give an example of how I built my campaign, I sketched out a metaplot, and then plugged the characters in there. First adventure, they were supposed to retrieve a prisoner for interrogation (two, actually) I had ideas for what would happen if they only retrieved one, none, both, killed one, killed both, et cetera.....

From there, I had a basic sketch of the events "bigger than the players", but with ideas for almost anything they could throw at me. They've surprised me and forced me to adapt my ideas more than a few times. They've also latched on to minor details and assumed they are bigger things, when they were just throwaway descriptions, so now I'm going to weave some of them into reality and the others can be useless.

What if your players do kill the leader of the cult? Then where are you? Are you just going to wrangle them into losing by DM fiat? What if they speed up their advance later on, catching the BBEG with his pants down?

I'm sorry, but planning out the plot turns this far in advance will show in your campaign. And it won't be a fun campaign. Make a much more loose idea, drop your level "ideas" and be sure to edit it every step of the way, using your player's thoughts and ideas (and their character's). That is DMing in a good campaign.

Vaecae
2010-04-01, 09:23 PM
For the most part it sounds like a pretty decent story that's over planned. Forget the levels for now, you can always modify the encounters to fit the level that the players get to them at so you don't need to have them preplaned to get X. They might not progress that fast or they might progress slower and end up above or below the level you desire. I like that you have a whole story planned, but don't forget there's more happening in the world then just your story. Have little side quests around that may be used to take a break now and then and expand upon the characters/players themselves. Let their characters have room to evolve without constantly conforming to a predetermined plot/destiny.

As for the interlude between the Dragons not wanting anyone in their valley and the escape of the Nec when they find him you could have the party have to prove their value to the Dragons who guard and preserve the valley. This will give them a break from undead and possibly lead to some powerful allies to call upon later, as well as letting you explore the great many things about dragons that there are out there. Let the guardians task the adventures with something that will take up reasonable time for the Nec to get prepared so you can make the next encounter with him more dramatic.

What task you give them to perform for the dragons can be almost anything, but sense they're neck deep in undead already and have been for a while let this interlude be undead free or mostly. This could be a good time for them to explore skills that they haven't before. Also the task should not be designed too far ahead of time. Make the task when the players get closer to there and design it to the group instead of them having to find a way to conform to it let it be made to pressure them in ways that will be fun and entertaining for them, kind of like a vacation from the overarcing plot.

flabort
2010-04-01, 09:45 PM
OK, this topic is getting a wee too long to read all at once, so i skipped the latter half. so I may have missed some important stuff.

To awnser the title question, YES. i would pay this campain. I'd also end up taking on the BBFG with undead of my own... but that's besides the point.


in the manner of ideas:

This "Crown of the Host", after getting it/failing to defend it from the BBFG, should be then discovered to be one in a series of items (The Bracers of the Hoard (*3 undead HD controlable), the Amulet of Darkness (all undead controled gain +6 untyped AC), the Boots of Undieing (As long as the wearer remains alive, controlled undead will re-rise when killed), the Robes of Wraithing (wearer is incorpereal, undead can become incorpereal too, within limit (each day, wearer can grant a collective 24 "hours" on multiple undead at a time, each HD that an undead has takes up 1 hour for each hour actually spent. so 4 undead with 3 HD each would take 12 hours out of the total each hour, so he could only grant 2 hours to that group, and not be able to grant any more incorperality to his undead that day)), rings of soul binding (*1.5 HD controlable each)).

so should he gather all the items, he'll have 33.75 times the HD of undead, be incorpereal, be able to grant a small amount of incorpereality to his undead minions, and have all his undead be really hard to hit. and then it turns out that they also have the hidden power that if thier all brought together, they instantly turn the wearer into a lich (regardless of level, or ability to cast 9th level spells), with his phylactery being split amounst all of them, so that all the artifacts must be destroyed to kill him. of course, there is another way to kill him (macguffin in OP severs ties to phylacteries AND undead...).

Adrayll
2010-04-01, 10:03 PM
This "Crown of the Host", after getting it/failing to defend it from the BBFG, should be then discovered to be one in a series of items (The Bracers of the Hoard (*3 undead HD controlable), the Amulet of Darkness (all undead controled gain +6 untyped AC), the Boots of Undieing (As long as the wearer remains alive, controlled undead will re-rise when killed), the Robes of Wraithing (wearer is incorpereal, undead can become incorpereal too, within limit (each day, wearer can grant a collective 24 "hours" on multiple undead at a time, each HD that an undead has takes up 1 hour for each hour actually spent. so 4 undead with 3 HD each would take 12 hours out of the total each hour, so he could only grant 2 hours to that group, and not be able to grant any more incorperality to his undead that day)), rings of soul binding (*1.5 HD controlable each)).

so should he gather all the items, he'll have 33.75 times the HD of undead, be incorpereal, be able to grant a small amount of incorpereality to his undead minions, and have all his undead be really hard to hit. and then it turns out that they also have the hidden power that if thier all brought together, they instantly turn the wearer into a lich (regardless of level, or ability to cast 9th level spells), with his phylactery being split amounst all of them, so that all the artifacts must be destroyed to kill him. of course, there is another way to kill him (macguffin in OP severs ties to phylacteries AND undead...).

O.o You're my new hero. I'll play around with it, but that's pretty much perfect. That give me more encounters, a BBEG that gets meaner, earlier

@Vaecae - I like the dragon idea. I'm now thinking that the dragons are more elitist than racist, and will give anyone (including BBEG) the chance to see the boneyard if they prove themselves. Maybe even a meeting between party and BBEG, where a half-dozen ancient dragons are stopping the party from fighting, and they can chat.

@YoungKing - let's assume for a few quick seconds the term "modifiable plan" is in my vocabulary

Escheton
2010-04-02, 08:56 PM
Ive played this campaign, Im pretty sure every seasoned player has
militia, undead...recurrinbg villain, your basic "my first campaign" by fisher price. Its a classic, have fun

Adrayll
2010-04-02, 09:03 PM
Seeing as all my players are all playing their first campaign, i don't think the cliche will be a problem

jiriku
2010-04-02, 10:28 PM
Nah, cliches are cliche because they're good. I've played in three or four variations of this campaigns over the years. They were all great fun.

DragonBaneDM
2010-04-02, 11:03 PM
For the Plot Interludes!

Give the players stuff they built they're backstories around. The fighter's gotta slay that warlock from a distant land that murdered his clan of fellow dwarves sometime, right?

Escheton
2010-04-03, 01:05 PM
Nah, cliches are cliche because they're good. I've played in three or four variations of this campaigns over the years. They were all great fun.

exactly
also, might want to check out tv tropes for a bit to learn how to build a story. And how to work with cliché's, and make them extra awesome

ApeofLight
2010-04-03, 01:20 PM
Cliches are good if you do them right, just like stories. You just have to dress it up properly.

Also this seems like a pretty good idea for the over all plot but I would suggest to just keep what you want to do as a general idea. If you get it too specific then you force your players into situations they don't want to be in but if you make it too generic you won't get anywhere.

Hopefully you will find a good middle ground and best of luck with your new job as a DM.