Valve losing to Zynga in Escapist's 'Greatest Developer' poll [Archive]

A_S

2010-04-03, 02:16 AM

...How did Zynga get on the bracket? :smallconfused:

Ten bucks says it involved sacrificing a kitten.

Remember that you can get an extra vote in the contest by using Twitter (I know, I know). To do so:

-Create a twitter if you don't have one!
-Link the twitter to the profile you've created here on the escapist! (profile>edit profile>add your twitter towards bottom)
-In twitter, follow @TheEscapistMag ! (go to http://twitter.com/TheEscapistMag, click the gear icon on the right, and click 'follow')
-Tweet this:(write this in the blank box, then press tweet) "I voted for @steam_games in Round 5 of The Escapist's March Mayhem: http://bit.ly/aANIUR #escMM." (yes, steam *underscore* games, and without quotes)

I recommend just making a pointless twitter account and never posting in it again, because twitter is annoying, but hey, it'll get Valve extra votes.

Finally, if you're thinking of abandoning hope: All is not lost! I hear (from totally unreliable sources) that Twitter votes aren't counted until the end, and therefore aren't in the poll yet, and that Valve voters have been much more dedicated than the Zynga mob about doubling their votes with twitter. So, we might still pull it off at the last minute.

Vote Valve!

Winthur

2010-04-04, 05:58 PM

I already erased all my friends who play Mafia Wars.

I also decided to have every Farmville player shot!

...Even though I play Farmville myself. I know it's hypocritical, but I can't leave my cows alone.

Of course I won't sell them, I'd rather sell you.

Fay Graydon

2010-04-04, 06:22 PM

*votes for Zynga*

Mainly cuz I'm not overly fond of Steams idea of forcing you to register games on them so you can't borrow them off your friends.
That and I don't like TF2 XD

Remmirath

2010-04-04, 06:22 PM

Looks like Valve pulled ahead in the end, if by a strangely small amount. This is good.

... I don't get it with Zynga anyhow. Or Farmville. It's just like a watered down SimFarm, as far as I can tell. :smallconfused: In fact, all of their games I would put squarely in the 'time killer at best' category, as in 'not actually fun, but probably better than staring at the wall'.
People are weird sometimes.

Destro_Yersul

2010-04-04, 06:27 PM

Mando Knight

2010-04-04, 07:32 PM

I already erased all my friends who play Mafia Wars.

You realize you could have just blocked all updates and notifications from the app instead?

chiasaur11

2010-04-04, 07:43 PM

Facebook has a stupid number of subscribers. Many of them play Zynga's games, and nothing else. My bet, Zynga just put up banners saying 'vote for us in this contest thing!' on all their games, scoring themselves the 'bored facebook non-gamer' demographic.

And I hear they offered bonuses if people gave them votes.

Not sure if it's true, of course. Not on Facebook.

The Extinguisher

2010-04-04, 07:54 PM

Facebook has a stupid number of subscribers. Many of them play Zynga's games, and nothing else. My bet, Zynga just put up banners saying 'vote for us in this contest thing!' on all their games, scoring themselves the 'bored facebook non-gamer' demographic.

And this is any different then someone coming on the forums trying to get people to vote for Valve?

It's just a popularity contest.

Winthur

2010-04-05, 06:58 AM

You realize you could have just blocked all updates and notifications from the app instead?

The issue is, I tend to throw around jokes that only select few are capable of understanding, because of the obscure sources they tend to come from. You are not one of them, I'm afraid. :smalltongue:

Destro_Yersul

2010-04-06, 05:22 PM

And this is any different then someone coming on the forums trying to get people to vote for Valve?

It's just a popularity contest.

Not saying it's different. Saying that it's why they were winning.

DraPrime

2010-04-06, 05:29 PM

How...how do facebook games compare the majesty and power of that final fight in Half Life 2: Episode 2? Does Farmville have striders, a speedy car, and insane ways of making stuff explode? I think not.

Pyrian

2010-04-06, 05:33 PM

How...how do facebook games compare the majesty and power of that final fight in Half Life 2: Episode 2?With at least one order of magnitude more players, that's how.

BisectedBrioche

2010-04-06, 05:42 PM

*votes for Zynga*

Mainly cuz I'm not overly fond of Steams idea of forcing you to register games on them so you can't borrow them off your friends.
That and I don't like TF2 XD

Valve's idea. Steam is the client software.
You mean you can only play games you paid for? The horror.
You are aware that you can simply log into your friend's steam account, download/install the game and play it?
They made more games than TF2 you know. Incidentally, what's the point in borrowing an exclusively multiplayer game? :smallconfused:

Zeb The Troll

2010-04-08, 01:03 AM

I'm not going to vote because I don't care enough, but if I were going to vote, it would be for games I actually play (Mafia Wars) over ones that interest me not one whit (TF2, Half-Life).

Maximum Zersk

2010-04-10, 06:34 PM

Huh.

Huh.

So Bungie didn't make the cut? Or for that matter, any other company?

Seriously?

Klose_the_Sith

2010-04-10, 06:50 PM

Given the chance I'd be voting for Relic/Bioware. But I guess that's just cause the only Valve game I ever liked was Portal, which I found to be good but not great.

How...how do facebook games compare the majesty and power of that final fight in Half Life 2: Episode 2? Does Farmville have striders, a speedy car, and insane ways of making stuff explode? I think not.

Did Farmville make me throw up repeatedly while playing it? I think not :smallamused:

Valve's idea. Steam is the client software.
You mean you can only play games you paid for? The horror.
You are aware that you can simply log into your friend's steam account, download/install the game and play it?
They made more games than TF2 you know. Incidentally, what's the point in borrowing an exclusively multiplayer game? :smallconfused:

I will legally buy my games at a shop, then crack them for better operation and future convenience. I don't want to have my computer DRM'd just cause some overpaid exec doesn't trust his consumerbased.

Especially seeing as my internet goes down all the time, meaning I'd be unable to play all these games I'd paid for. Convenient? No. No it is not.

Ecks Dee

2010-04-10, 06:57 PM

Voting Zynga and proud of it. Makers of quality games will always win out, their superior production standards are obvious, and I'm not falling for one of Gabe's shills like OP.

fknm

2010-04-10, 07:08 PM

Count me in with those who find Valve overrated. While HL2 EP2 was a massive improvement, they're still too caught up with the "cinematic experience" to create truly good games.

Example from EP2- In one of the car levels, there's a place where you can jump off of a ramp over a cliff, or you can take the "tame" route down the side of the mountain. The former was the "intended" method, yet, under normal game logic, it would have killed the player. These sort of inconsistencies, IMO, truly take the player out of the game.

Also, I still don't like the "setpiece, rest, setpiece, rest, etc." pacing that Valve uses. It reeks of lazy level design- someone needs to make those guys play some of the better Doom .wads out there!

Telling the narrative between gameplay sections is also a massive flaw in the Valve style. They need to learn to tell it through the gameplay. In a medium whose strength is player agency, completely dropping all but the merest pretense of interactivity to advance the storyline is ill-advised. More devs should look at Fallout (the original, not the Bethesda abomination) or Dark Sun: Shattered Lands to see how it should be done (or, in the FPS world, System Shock 2 or Unreal).

Finally, their action scenes are scripted far too much. Instead of attempting to make sure that everyone has the same experience in a given battle, it would be far better to script it less heavily and allow for more player expression (again, the strength of the medium is player agency). HL2 EP2 was a huge improvement in this regard, but they still have a long way to go.

Cleverdan22

2010-04-10, 08:18 PM

We have to keep in mind that this poll is on the Escapist, which is not something that a lot of people know about. So, even though Valve has won now, it seems to me that people were voting Zynga due to being "mad at Valve" for having an online system that they weren't happy with. They seemed to ignore the whole "developer" question. An amazing staff who makes genius and innovative games rife with great graphics, gameplay, and meme-able quotes shouldn't even be allowed to be compared to a Facebook app company. I'm not saying that the Facebook games can't be fun, it's just that they shouldn't be on the same level of comparison.

BisectedBrioche

2010-04-11, 06:30 AM

Voting Zynga and proud of it. Makers of quality games will always win out, their superior production standards are obvious, and I'm not falling for one of Gabe's shills like OP.

Eh? So touting for votes is only shilling when Valve do it? :smallconfused:
{Scrubbed}

Count me in with those who find Valve overrated. While HL2 EP2 was a massive improvement, they're still too caught up with the "cinematic experience" to create truly good games.

Example from EP2- In one of the car levels, there's a place where you can jump off of a ramp over a cliff, or you can take the "tame" route down the side of the mountain. The former was the "intended" method, yet, under normal game logic, it would have killed the player. These sort of inconsistencies, IMO, truly take the player out of the game.

Also, I still don't like the "setpiece, rest, setpiece, rest, etc." pacing that Valve uses. It reeks of lazy level design- someone needs to make those guys play some of the better Doom .wads out there!

Telling the narrative between gameplay sections is also a massive flaw in the Valve style. They need to learn to tell it through the gameplay. In a medium whose strength is player agency, completely dropping all but the merest pretense of interactivity to advance the storyline is ill-advised. More devs should look at Fallout (the original, not the Bethesda abomination) or Dark Sun: Shattered Lands to see how it should be done (or, in the FPS world, System Shock 2 or Unreal).

Finally, their action scenes are scripted far too much. Instead of attempting to make sure that everyone has the same experience in a given battle, it would be far better to script it less heavily and allow for more player expression (again, the strength of the medium is player agency). HL2 EP2 was a huge improvement in this regard, but they still have a long way to go.

I can, as a student of computer games programming, safely say that none of what you just said makes any sense what-so-ever. At no point in playing episode 2 did anything I did seem illogical based on my prior experience playing a game. Furthermore, the Half-Life series is known for being one of the first major releases to increase immersion by not using cutscenes to tell the story (hell, the only time you lose interactivity is when you're trapped or restrained anyway).

I also find your pre-2008 style Fallout 3 bashing rather annoying.

Given the chance I'd be voting for Relic/Bioware. But I guess that's just cause the only Valve game I ever liked was Portal, which I found to be good but not great.

Did Farmville make me throw up repeatedly while playing it? I think not :smallamused:

It doesn't entertain me for more than 30 seconds a day either. :smalltongue:

I will legally buy my games at a shop, then crack them for better operation and future convenience. I don't want to have my computer DRM'd just cause some overpaid exec doesn't trust his consumerbased.

Especially seeing as my internet goes down all the time, meaning I'd be unable to play all these games I'd paid for. Convenient? No. No it is not.

What convinience? Having a spare copy (you can burn the files to a backup disk as well as download them)?

In regards to your last point; you can play offline and have been able to for some time.

Ikialev

2010-04-11, 07:24 AM

Furthermore, the Half-Life series is known for being one of the first major releases to increase immersion by not using cutscenes to tell the story (hell, the only time you lose interactivity is when you're trapped or restrained anyway).
Jumpong around and hitting people's heads with a crowbar when they're discussing Plot Subject is truly an immersing experience.

Dr. Bath

2010-04-11, 07:26 AM

Especially seeing as my internet goes down all the time, meaning I'd be unable to play all these games I'd paid for. Convenient? No. No it is not.

Whut? I play Steam games offline all the time, I've never had a problem with it.

Murska

2010-04-11, 07:40 AM

Now it's Valve vs. Bioware which is actually interesting and where I actually have a clear favourite.(Bioware, obviously. :smalltongue:)

I'm glad Zynga was dropped though. I don't like their games nor do I acknowledge they even have merit despite not being my style, like I do with Valve's games. I'm still kinda sad Blizzard had to drop to Bioware before the finals though. I'd still have voted for Bioware thanks to my dislike of WoW but Blizzard over Valve for me.

For those who think Zynga was doing so well because people dislike Valve, keep in mind that to get there Zynga had beaten Square Enix, Rockstar North and Infinity Ward before to even get that far.

Draconi Redfir

2010-04-11, 07:57 AM

Valve wins! all hail gordon freeman! all hail Chell! all hail the tank!

Bavarian itP

2010-04-11, 07:58 AM

Especially seeing as my internet goes down all the time, meaning I'd be unable to play all these games I'd paid for. Convenient? No. No it is not.

Complaining about issues that have been fixed approximately four years ago does not make you look like the most satisfying opponent to argue against.

BisectedBrioche

2010-04-11, 08:31 AM

Jumpong around and hitting people's heads with a crowbar when they're discussing Plot Subject is truly an immersing experience.

Yes, it is actually. Much more so than fighting waves of enemies who exist to do nothing but fight, or suddenly jumping to a cutscene to see it happen.

Capt Spanner

2010-04-11, 09:01 AM

Jumpong around and hitting people's heads with a crowbar when they're discussing Plot Subject is truly an immersing experience.

That's no different to a DM saying "No. Don't be an idiot. You can't do that." If you like to go around walloping NPCs while they discuss Plot Subject, your DM is quite likely to do that.

Whut? I play Steam games offline all the time, I've never had a problem with it.

I just checked, and Steam won't start for me if I'm not connected to the internet. I should probably sent tech support an e-mail...

Klose_the_Sith

2010-04-11, 09:52 AM

It doesn't entertain me for more than 30 seconds a day either. :smalltongue:

I'd probably choose Valve over Zynga, I guess. But I'm just not fans of either and then there's the whole 'completely different companies' aspect.

I mean, nobody would ever accuse Zynga of conquering the hardcore FPS clique anymore then they'd accuse Valve of spewing out evil and addictive facebook apps.

Just seems a little silly they were compared at all ...

What convinience? Having a spare copy (you can burn the files to a backup disk as well as download them)?

In regards to your last point; you can play offline and have been able to for some time.

My convenience comes from having all my games ready all the time, no matter what. They'll run better, boot faster and I don't have to jump through any hoops.

I'm amused by your second point. Yes, I can play offline, but there are going to be repetitive needs to bring something like that back into online mode and then off and every time I go online I have to update OR ELSE. Just not much fun on my irregular connection.

I get that it's solved and it's a good solution for those who don't mind the business model (personally I disapprove of corporate oppression :smalltongue:) but it just doesn't work for me.

Complaining about issues that have been fixed approximately four years ago does not make you look like the most satisfying opponent to argue against.

Sorry to waste your pixels with my irrelevant perspective? :smallconfused:

I get that my point was hideously phrased and I apologise, but surely we can have a better start then that.

fknm

2010-04-11, 10:10 AM

I can, as a student of computer games programming, safely say that none of what you just said makes any sense what-so-ever. At no point in playing episode 2 did anything I did seem illogical based on my prior experience playing a game. Furthermore, the Half-Life series is known for being one of the first major releases to increase immersion by not using cutscenes to tell the story (hell, the only time you lose interactivity is when you're trapped or restrained anyway).
Protip- letting the characters move around during your cutscenes doesn't make them any more involving. When HL/HL2 goes into "story mode", it loses all but the faintest vestiges of interactivity.

As for things that seem illogical based on prior experience, try these:
1. The aforementioned jump ramp over a cliff. Normally, you'd take fall damage, but it's magically mitigated for that one instance...

2. We see that Alyx can take damage. We see that running over things with the car kills them. So, why doesn't Alyx die if you manage to run over her? It's not easy to pull off- she's pretty good at getting out of the way- but if you do, she clips straight through the hood, no worse for the wear.

3. A grenade under a trap-door can blow Freeman higher than it can blow a corpse laying directly on top of it? Really?

Another thing that irritates me about Valve that I forgot to mention in my first post- the way they pander to their fanbase via Alyx. "Oh Gordon, you're a typical beta-male nerd, and despite being a hot chick who by any real world standards you'd have no chance with, I'm going to fawn over everything you do and talk about how cool you are!" *vomit*.

I was so glad when she "died" in EP 2, and was immensely disappointed when she came back to life.

I also find your pre-2008 style Fallout 3 bashing rather annoying.
Yeah, because it didn't suck just as much as NMA and rpgcodex predicted.

Oh. Wait. It did.

"Never mind the fact that neither of us need to die because I've got a robot following me- this game isn't going to end until someone has sacrificed themselves heroically!"

[Intelligence]*what NPC just said*

[Perception]*witty remark that has nothing to do with perception at all*

"So, have you seen a middle aged man around here?"

Erloas

2010-04-11, 10:59 AM

Most of these complaints at Valve are really nit-picky, and in some cases very ironic given the exact topic of this thread.

People complaining about not being able to kill a friendly NPC with a car would probably also be complaining just as much if you could and they accidentally hit her and killed her and had to restart. And as for hitting NPCs while they are talking to you and it not doing anything... if that bothers you so much just Don't Do It. Its not like they are expecting or asking you to do it, its not like he just randomly starts hitting stuff with his crowbar as an idle animation or something.

And when you compare it to Zynga games... well they don't even have anything that compares to it, they just have static jpgs for the entirety of their games, well they might have a few animated gifs mixed in there. They don't even have any sort of story, or gameplay, and they have virtually no interaction with other players despite the fact that they are "social networking" games. At least PopCap games have some actual gameplay to them.

And as for the complaint of Steam... well I don't think there is any way to play Zynga games outside of Facebook or MySpace. They are also things that require you to be connected to the 'net 100% of the time you want to use them without exception.
While you do have to set up games for Steam to work offline, it can be done with a few steps. (I've only did it once and I can't even remember which game it was for now).

As for Valve... well I loved Portal, and played CS a fair amount. Not sure if I ever beat HL1, and I didn't come close on HL2 and TF2 takes pretty much every aspect I don't like about FPSs and sticks them together. And I've played a number of the Zynga games and it doesn't take long before I'm asking myself "why did I spend any time doing this" but for some reason I'm still playing one (since it takes about 1 minute a day), and most of their games are exact copies of each other with one little mechanic change and some new jpgs.
I may not love Valve, but its pretty clear they are the only one of the two that actually makes games. Well unless you want to start counting every bored high school student with access to flash as game developers (and even they generally have more actual gameplay to them)

fknm

2010-04-11, 11:20 AM

And as for hitting NPCs while they are talking to you and it not doing anything... if that bothers you so much just Don't Do It. Its not like they are expecting or asking you to do it, its not like he just randomly starts hitting stuff with his crowbar as an idle animation or something.
Again, the strength of the medium is in player agency. When you have to ignore player inputs or tell the player "don't do that" in order the game to work, you've tossed out the strength of the medium, and your game might as well be a movie.

I may not love Valve, but its pretty clear they are the only one of the two that actually makes games. Well unless you want to start counting every bored high school student with access to flash as game developers (and even they generally have more actual gameplay to them)
No true Scotsman Game Developer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scottsman)

lesser_minion

2010-04-11, 11:50 AM

Again, the strength of the medium is in player agency. When you have to ignore player inputs or tell the player "don't do that" in order the game to work, you've tossed out the strength of the medium, and your game might as well be a movie.

The fact that the game is linear and places restrictions on player action doesn't mean that it's somehow eschewing every benefit of the genre and "might as well be a film". A middle ground exists.

As for Valve's style, they go with what works. If you don't like it, don't play the games.

No true Scotsman Game Developer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scottsman)

OK, for a start, he explained pretty clearly why he didn't feel that Zynga actually made games - i.e. that they weren't a game developer at all.

Secondly, had he used No True Scotsman, you still wouldn't have pointed out anything significant. It certainly isn't crucial to his argument that Zynga not be "a true game developer".

If there's a problem with someone's argument, point it out, and explain what part of their reasoning it undermines. Committing a fallacy doesn't instantly invalidate an argument, or even a particular line of reasoning. Don't appeal to one.

Sholos

2010-04-11, 11:56 AM

Another thing that irritates me about Valve that I forgot to mention in my first post- the way they pander to their fanbase via Alyx. "Oh Gordon, you're a typical beta-male nerd, and despite being a hot chick who by any real world standards you'd have no chance with, I'm going to fawn over everything you do and talk about how cool you are!" *vomit*.

I resent the statement that no "hot chick" would ever want to be with someone like Gordon. Maybe you like alpha-male jocks, but don't think you can speak for every woman out there.

Again, the strength of the medium is in player agency. When you have to ignore player inputs or tell the player "don't do that" in order the game to work, you've tossed out the strength of the medium, and your game might as well be a movie.

I guess in this sense, Morrowind and the previous Elder Scroll games are some of the few "good" games out there, since besides them, there are an extremely low number of games that let players do whatever they want to whomever they want.

Really, how many games out there don't ignore player inputs at some point? I'm having a really hard time combining your statement that player input shouldn't be ignored with your support of cutscenes, which by their very nature ignore player input.

No true Scotsman Game Developer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scottsman)

That is not how the No True Scostman fallacy works. You could call this if Zynga had done something besides Facebook games. You could also invoke this if someone had claimed that developing Facebook games disqualified you from being a game developer. The claim, as I saw it, was that because Zynga has created nothing but shallow Facebook games, they do not really count as a game developer.

Anonomuss

2010-04-11, 11:57 AM

No true Scotsman Game Developer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scottsman)

I don't think your 'argument' is sufficiently qualified.
In the circumstances games have come to mean a lot more to people than just pass time. Much like amateur finger painting seldom means more than a way of convening a particular point or scene, flash "games" exist to provide a momentary moment of distraction. It's hard to make a compelling argument that such a passing distraction can be considered a willing sparring partner to any modern game which people willingly pay for, which often carry a message that exists independently of the experience of playing.

Saying that the poster above is biased in their distinction, is like blaming someone for preferring, say, The Mona Lisa to a 6-year olds self portrait, when their reasons for preferring the former are entirely based upon substance. The former is 'art' in the same sense that farmville is not a 'game', in that the poster doesn't see the substance of farmville et al. It is not a biased distinction, but rather something that's based upon the substance of the thing.

*Ahem* ((Back on Topic))
When it comes down to it, would anyone be willing to pay for the "experience" that something like farmville represents?

EDIT: Ninja'd

fknm

2010-04-11, 12:55 PM

The fact that the game is linear and places restrictions on player action doesn't mean that it's somehow eschewing every benefit of the genre and "might as well be a film". A middle ground exists.
Of course a middle ground exists, but even in very linear games, the good ones allow for a huge range of player expression.

Take the original Castlevania, for instance- 6 levels, you'll always do them in the same order. Yet, there's a huge number of different approaches one can take to any given situation- Boomerang or Holy Water for block 15? Boomerang or Whip against Dracula's first form? Grab the meat in the mummy's lair, or stay on the upper platform? Try to "fake out" the aiming on Dracula's fireballs, or try to react to his shots? Contrast this to most Valve games, where there's an obviously optimal solution, and they do everything they can to make sure that everyone picks the same solution.

As for Valve's style, they go with what works.
What works for a misguided goal (the so-called "cinematic" experience).

OK, for a start, he explained pretty clearly why he didn't feel that Zynga actually made games - i.e. that they weren't a game developer at all.
Well, Zynga not making games is pretty easily demonstrably false, so it's not a better basis for an argument than the "they're not a game developer because their games aren't as ambitious as Valve's!"

I resent the statement that no "hot chick" would ever want to be with someone like Gordon. Maybe you like alpha-male jocks, but don't think you can speak for every woman out there.
Maybe I can't speak for every woman out there, but in your own experience, which is more common- the desirable chick going with the nerdy guy (for reasons other than money), or the desirable chick going with the stereotypical alpha?

In my experience, it's certainly the latter- and given the behavior of most people whose highest aspiration is the sticky and sweaty, I'm guessing that my experience is the more common one.

I guess in this sense, Morrowind and the previous Elder Scroll games are some of the few "good" games out there, since besides them, there are an extremely low number of games that let players do whatever they want to whomever they want.

Really, how many games out there don't ignore player inputs at some point? I'm having a really hard time combining your statement that player input shouldn't be ignored with your support of cutscenes, which by their very nature ignore player input.
1. Sandbox/"go anywhere, do anything" is not synonymous with "don't ignore player inputs in the interest of railroading them somewhere".

2. I can only assume that you haven't played many older pure-action games, before people started caring about things like story. Doom does not take control away from the player because the Cyberdemon needs to die in just such a way.

3. As far as "support of cutscenes", I don't know where you got that from. Games should try to keep non-interactive narratives to a minimum, whether it's done from first person view or not (although, I will say that a quick cutscene is far less annoying than the Valve-style first-person "hey, WASD stull function" cutscene... although, that could just be because Valve's sense of pacing sucks).

The claim, as I saw it, was that because Zynga has created nothing but shallow Facebook games, they do not really count as a game developer.
And how does "depth" of the games they develop make them any less of a game developer?

When it comes down to it, would anyone be willing to pay for the "experience" that something like farmville represents?
Given that people pay for MMOs, nothing surprises me.

Anonomuss

2010-04-11, 01:39 PM

And how does "depth" of the games they develop make them any less of a game developer?

Because there's a second word on there, Developer. If a concept isn't refined and altered, a game doesn't really advance anything. Developing a game means more than filling out the blanks or blatant stealing of other games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zynga#Replication_of_existing_games). Ideally each game, if we still want to maintain the facade that games are more than a machination for fulfilling our base desires, should have a point for pushing forward the medium or in telling a player something new.
Repetition and lack of innovation is simply boring. I often prefer to play something that's interesting but badly implemented, than something that merely hits the status quo and shrugs.

Given that people pay for MMOs, nothing surprises me.

Indeed.

BisectedBrioche

2010-04-11, 01:47 PM

Protip- letting the characters move around during your cutscenes doesn't make them any more involving. When HL/HL2 goes into "story mode", it loses all but the faintest vestiges of interactivity.

As for things that seem illogical based on prior experience, try these:
1. The aforementioned jump ramp over a cliff. Normally, you'd take fall damage, but it's magically mitigated for that one instance...

2. We see that Alyx can take damage. We see that running over things with the car kills them. So, why doesn't Alyx die if you manage to run over her? It's not easy to pull off- she's pretty good at getting out of the way- but if you do, she clips straight through the hood, no worse for the wear.

3. A grenade under a trap-door can blow Freeman higher than it can blow a corpse laying directly on top of it? Really?

Another thing that irritates me about Valve that I forgot to mention in my first post- the way they pander to their fanbase via Alyx. "Oh Gordon, you're a typical beta-male nerd, and despite being a hot chick who by any real world standards you'd have no chance with, I'm going to fawn over everything you do and talk about how cool you are!" *vomit*.

I was so glad when she "died" in EP 2, and was immensely disappointed when she came back to life.

Yeah, because it didn't suck just as much as NMA and rpgcodex predicted.

Oh. Wait. It did.

"Never mind the fact that neither of us need to die because I've got a robot following me- this game isn't going to end until someone has sacrificed themselves heroically!"

[Intelligence]*what NPC just said*

[Perception]*witty remark that has nothing to do with perception at all*

"So, have you seen a middle aged man around here?"

[Intelligence] As a games programmer (hell, as a rank and file gamer), I can tell you that most of those are not unique to Half Life, indeed they're persistant problems with programming physics engines. Also, as Valve said in the commontary; they put in the alternative routes for non-gamers who wouldn't recognise the relavant gameplay tropes.

[Perception] You seem to be posting your opinion as fact there.

Makensha

2010-04-11, 01:51 PM

I can't say much about what game developers should do, since I'm not one and I don't know what makes them the most money, but I know that when I'm playing a Valve game, I'm enjoying a cinematic fps that ignores realism for idealism. I know when I'm playing a facebook game I'm playing an experience similar (but not exactly) to a tycoon game from the Roller Coaster Tycoon Era (you know what I mean), except you are forced to play it over a long period of time to have great accomplishments.

And then I compare a Valve game to Mount and Blade. Mount and Blade takes (semi) realism over idealism. There is a lot of downtime between the action. There's a lot of fun to be had, but the game also has a lot of problems with having a purpose or goal. Valve is quite the opposite, with set goals and intense combat.

Then I compare a facebook game to Mount and Blade. Facebook and Mount and Blade games make the feeling of accomplishment through time-consuming labor. In M&B you build your army and property. In FaceB games you build property through a steady stream of micro gaming. But while M&B has those intense moments where you get attacked by a king and have to fight large bloody battles to survive, FaceB games never have that intensity. They allow you to build your farm/whatever, but to what goal? What reason do you build it? There is no end, no battle you've been preparing for, nothing but the climb. M&B is also nothing but the climb, but incorporates action in to the climb, and gives you moments you'll remember for a long time to come.

I've always enjoyed Valve more than FaceB games. I enjoy the cinematic feel and the "I just cut down a horde of zombies coming at me with a machete!" awesomeness moments. There is a feeling of accomplishment when you finish your journey. FaceB games will never have that, because they want you to keep putting money into their machine. Even Roller Coaster Tycoon gave you goals and could get intense when you were in the last few months and needed your park rating to incease by 100.

So if you couldn't figure it out, I vote Valve.

fknm

2010-04-11, 02:08 PM

[Intelligence] As a games programmer (hell, as a rank and file gamer), I can tell you that most of those are not unique to Half Life, indeed they're persistant problems with programming physics engines. Also, as Valve said in the commontary; they put in the alternative routes for non-gamers who wouldn't recognise the relavant gameplay tropes.

[Perception] You seem to be posting your opinion as fact there.

Eh... what? You realize that my Int/Per tags were in relation to FO3 not Valve, and were based on actual examples of FO3 dialogue, right? It kind of looks odd in the thread preview, but the quote it was in response to was someone claiming that FO3 bashing is tiresome.

BTW, the problem here isn't with the physics engine itself, but rather with the insane exceptions they make in order to create "cinematic moments" (such as throwing a grenade under a trap door to launch yourself up to a hidden ammo store- seriously, WTF were they thinking?)