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Thieves
2010-04-02, 01:52 PM
As per the statement in the title, I'm looking for a class (much more a class than a combination) which could serve as the ultimate mountain of steel on a battlefield. The more Saint it gets in its Armored, the better.

I've heard about the Crusader as being one such option, but looking at his class abilities / some maneouvers, I couldn't get the uberness. Could someone fill me in on what are the combinations of abilities that make them stand out so much? Also, are they actually more of two-handed-smashers or more of holyshields kind?

Other suggestions welcome and implored for.

Frosty
2010-04-02, 01:56 PM
The ability to self heal is nice. The delayed damage pool is very nice. Oh, and at higher levels they can make Fort saves to ignore HP damage that would knock them out/kill them.

Zergrusheddie
2010-04-02, 02:02 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7913078&postcount=13) might be of some interest to you.

pffh
2010-04-02, 02:06 PM
The thing about crusaders is that their attack routine is something like:

Cure serious wounds, heal, mass cure serious wounds, rinse and repeat until monster is killed or says "bugger this I'm going home".

tyckspoon
2010-04-02, 02:08 PM
Self-healing, good armor proficiencies, delaying damage taken (and getting hit/damage bonuses for doing so), and enemy-focus/ally protecting abilities like Shield Counter, Shield Block, Defensive Rebuke, and Iron Guard Glare. Also class abilities like Zealous Surge and Mettle that help protect against non-HP attacks. Devoted Spirit is full of abilities that either help you absorb hits or make sure your allies don't get hit, which are otherwise hard to come by for most 'tank' plans in D&D- it usually comes down to tanking either by way of hoping your enemies inexplicably focus on you, or by field control so they don't get anywhere near the weaker party members in the first place. Crusaders have ways of forcing both things to happen, and pretty much every other tank build can be improved with Crusader levels to help those things happen.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-02, 02:08 PM
My two cents:

It's not much, but for an AC boost don't neglect defending armor/shield spikes.

Zergrusheddie
2010-04-02, 02:12 PM
The thing about crusaders is that their attack routine is something like:

Cure serious wounds, heal, mass cure serious wounds, rinse and repeat until monster is killed or says "bugger this I'm going home".

That is awesome and pretty true.

Thieves
2010-04-02, 02:15 PM
Right... this seems kinda awkward to me, a bit too MMORPGy, splashing tons of MP-driven skills to just stand in place with a hail of arrows and fireballs flying over your head. Any ideas for class for a guy who just presses onwards like a glacier and laughs wizards in the face reflecting lightning bolts with a shield?

// Edit: ninja pre-responsers. now thinking about latest additions.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-02, 02:17 PM
Well, CArc had some nice anti-mage feats, I believe. Other than that, Crusader with lots of magic gear?

pffh
2010-04-02, 02:19 PM
Well, CArc had some nice anti-mage feats, I believe. Other than that, Crusader with lots of magic gear?

Yup when looking for an unstoppable tank you can't go wrong with some crusader.

It... attacks... with... HEALING.

And the maneuvers are standard action so you can push forward and then BAMM smack that puny wizard in the face with your sword while your wounds heal.

Flickerdart
2010-04-02, 02:21 PM
The Knight makes a very competent tank, but he's more about keeping bad men with swords from getting near your squishy Wizard. For pressing onward, Crusader works, as does a Sorcadin gish build (because of +lots to saves and all the buffs).

The_Jackal
2010-04-02, 02:23 PM
What's wrong with a good old fighter with two weapon fighting and the shield feats? You don't need self-healing if you've got a party healer, and you can instead spend your actions pummeling everything that comes within arm's reach, which, over the long run, will reduce your taken damage more than just refilling your hit points with spells.

tyckspoon
2010-04-02, 02:30 PM
Fighters have no (inherent- everything is fixed with enough feat and item diving) means of actually protecting their allies, they have no means of intercepting opponents who Tumble/Fly/Teleport/Earth Glide around them to attack their friends instead, and they're horribly vulnerable to getting Dominated and told to go smack the Cleric in the face instead. Crusaders do all of that better. Also, you seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the Crusader's healing- he doesn't just cast Cure Light Wounds on himself. He hits the opponent, and then gets the benefit of a Cure Light Wounds as a result of successfully dealing damage.

Flickerdart
2010-04-02, 02:31 PM
What's wrong with that is that enemies have no reason to fight you, because you're not a threat. TWF doesn't put out enough damage without a bonus source like the Rogue's Sneak Attack. On the other hand, enemies have all the reason to focus on a Knight (because they've been Challenged), a raging Barbarian (because they'll get killed otherwise), a Crusader (who keeps healing everyone) or even a tripmonkey/Stand Still Fighter (because they can't get away).

Swok
2010-04-02, 02:31 PM
Mostly because a sword and board fighter is horrible at doing anything well?

ToB actually can do Sword and Board well, and crusader attacks AND heals at the same time.

*12d6 sudden strike damage taken*

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-02, 02:58 PM
Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is the feat Stone Power, which is a huge part of a Crusader's survivability. It can give him an extra 10 HP every round, which is especially good in the early levels.

Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is especially good for any tank, considering its Con +4 and DR 8/Adamantine and other benefits for only a +1 LA.

Optimystik
2010-04-02, 03:01 PM
Binders are decent at this as well, particularly if you go into Knight of the Sacred Seal. Bind Savnok for full-plate and fortification, then bind Aym and start sundering the ever-living-hell out of your enemy's weapons. Aym and Savnok go great together - she grants Dwarven step, letting you keep your full speed in plate.

Other nice tanking vestiges:

Buer: Fast Healing, Healing Touch (Both unlimited use.) Disease/Poison Immunity.

Dahlver-Nar - share 50% of the damage you take with other creatures. You can pick enemies for this as well, though they get a will save.

Haagenti - Tower Shield proficiency, selective polymorph immunity (you can resume your natural form each turn as a free action if you wish.)

Otiax - Combat Reflexes, 20% Concealment, and an Air Blast touch attack (2d6) reach weapon that gets iteratives.

Combine the above with KotSS and you will have 16 BAB at 20. KotSS also makes you an Outsider at the capstone.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-02, 03:16 PM
Outside of Crusaders, I'm a fan of Wu Jen gishes as tanks. Admittedly, that doesn't start up till Body Outside Body and Giant Size come into play, but I'm a big fan of actually being an Army of One, so to speak.

This works all the better with Transcend Mortality, as it makes the clones more likely to survive, although it does need two levels of Archmage to pull off.

waterpenguin43
2010-04-02, 03:18 PM
A few suggestions:
-Mechanus armor. (+10 AC)
-Warblade. Crusader.
-As high Con as possible.
-Some ability to heal.

herbe
2010-04-02, 04:13 PM
A crusader supported by wishes (look at sig) for more feats,sneak attack, plus whatevercrusaderwant:smallsmile:

Deepblue706
2010-04-02, 04:54 PM
What's wrong with a good old fighter with two weapon fighting and the shield feats?

Fighter can do it, but you've got to use a lot of sources for feats. And then, you probably won't do it as well.

Getting feats like Agile Shield Fighter, a Weapon Style (like Anvil of Thunder or Three Mountains), the prerequisites for each, and an Adaptive Shield (I think that's actually a ToB enhancement), you could lay down some Daze or Nauseate, etc.

But then you'll also need stuff to shore up for your weaknesses, because Fighters lack anything inherently good for defense. You could get an absurd feat like Delay Potion, and use swift actions to activate your potions of Protection from Evil to prevent Domination...but you still have to worry about being relevent when your status-inflicting attacks can't hinder the enemy, or when other spells are used against you.

And, keep in mind how many feats this would actually take to do. You'll have few options when your plans don't go right, apart from "Move and Attack" or "Full Attack".

I'm pretty sure Crusader is the class for the job.

AslanCross
2010-04-02, 06:12 PM
As per the statement in the title, I'm looking for a class (much more a class than a combination) which could serve as the ultimate mountain of steel on a battlefield. The more Saint it gets in its Armored, the better.

I've heard about the Crusader as being one such option, but looking at his class abilities / some maneouvers, I couldn't get the uberness. Could someone fill me in on what are the combinations of abilities that make them stand out so much? Also, are they actually more of two-handed-smashers or more of holyshields kind?

Other suggestions welcome and implored for.


The thing about the Crusader is that it is one of the few classes in D&D that CAN actually tank (meaning prevent enemies from hitting the soft friendlies at the back) thanks to its Thicket of Blades stance, for one. The Crusader can do the sword/board or two-hander style fine thanks to its hard-hitting maneuvers (Mountain Hammers, Divine Surge, etc). A reach weapon complemented by spiked gauntlets will allow you to make good use of Thicket of Blades+Combat Reflexes. I think the healing is secondary, but it's there and it's a great way to keep him standing.

The Knight also has a bunch of great abilities that also do tanking well.

A knight/crusader multiclass is a great tank.

Soranar
2010-04-02, 07:06 PM
Knight 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/ Crusader x/ Blackguard 2

Knight for challenge , full speed in medium armor

Paladin of tyranny for immunity to fear, Cha to saves, -2 to saves (also helps knight's test of mettle)

Crusader for thicket of blades

Blackguard for Cha to saves 2x

you get a fairly good tank with insanely high saves (a mind controlled, or otherwise incapacitated tank is useless)

AslanCross
2010-04-02, 07:12 PM
A few suggestions:
-Mechanus armor. (+10 AC)
-Warblade.
-As high Con as possible.
-Some ability to heal.

Mechanus Armor is Heavy Armor. Warblade does not have Heavy Armor Proficiency and has a lot of ACP skills. It's not a good idea. A Crusader/Knight would be able to meet all of those even better.

Greenish
2010-04-02, 07:59 PM
Knight 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/ Crusader x/ Blackguard 2

Knight for challenge , full speed in medium armor

Paladin of tyranny for immunity to fear, Cha to saves, -2 to saves (also helps knight's test of mettle)

Crusader for thicket of blades

Blackguard for Cha to saves 2x

you get a fairly good tank with insanely high saves (a mind controlled, or otherwise incapacitated tank is useless)Your Knight's challenges wouldn't be very effective though with only four levels of Knight at ECL 11+.