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RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-02, 02:46 PM
So i was cruising handbooks for psionic characters and well i can find information on Ardents and lurks but none on divine minds?
Are they bad? if so Why?

Starbuck_II
2010-04-02, 02:51 PM
Take a Paladin. Now strip away their Bab.

Sound awesome?
No? Well, niether does Divine Mind for same idea.
Their fluff is psionic Paladin, but their class features say, "Haha, no!"

I'm exaggerating a little.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-02, 02:53 PM
Take a Paladin. Now strip away their Bab.

Sound awesome?
No? Well, niether does Divine Mind for same idea.
Their fluff is psionic Paladin, but their class features say, "Haha, no!"

I'm exaggerating a little.

I guess mechanicaly whast the issue with them is it just they don't realy have any strong options... my brief reading of there fluff made me think more of a favored soul then any thing.

tyckspoon
2010-04-02, 03:00 PM
They really are that bad. They're.. well, like PsyWarriors that aren't allowed to actually use psionics. And don't get bonus feats. Instead they get auras, which are ... generally quite lame. Fluff-wise, they have the serious issue of being placed immediately after the Ardent, which covers the same conceptual ground with much, much better mechanics.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-02, 03:01 PM
Well, there are no Ex-Favored Souls (you are one for life). There are ex-Divine Minds. So I think Pally when I read them.

The trouble is their innate auras have a low distance. They should be doubled in distance really (kinda selfish that they rarely affect allies normally).

They are kinda like a Dragon Shaman in that regard but worse in aura distance.
1st lv: 5 ft
3rd: 10 ft
5th: 15 ft
7th: 20 ft
Etc.

They finally equal a DS in aura distance by level 11. Not exactly party friendly. Also they can't fast heal party like DS making them not as useful.

Divine Grace? Pally class feature at 4th is good.

That would be my 2 fixes:
double aura distance and full BAB. Then they'd still be not best but better.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-02, 03:08 PM
Well, there are no Ex-Favored Souls (you are one for life). There are ex-Divine Minds. So I think Pally when I read them.

The trouble is their innate auras have a low distance. They should be doubled in distance really (kinda selfish that they rarely affect allies normally).

They are kinda like a Dragon Shaman in that regard but worse in aura distance.
1st lv: 5 ft
3rd: 10 ft
5th: 15 ft
7th: 20 ft
Etc.

They finally equal a DS in aura distance by level 11. Not exactly party friendly. Also they can't fast heal party like DS making them not as useful.

Divine Grace? Pally class feature at 4th is good.

That would be my 2 fixes:
double aura distance and full BAB. Then they'd still be not best but better.


Hmm ill have to look at it in more detail.

Edit:
I like DS's though.
And honestly think there decent.

Optimystik
2010-04-02, 03:45 PM
Divine Mind makes me rage.
How the BOOP does a Psionic class "fall?" And why do they need a deity?? :smallfurious:

All right, I think, the flavor sucks - they just took a Paladin, gave it some PP, and called it "psionic," but maybe the mechanics can save it.

So how many base PP does it get at level 20... 62.
For reference, a Psywar ends up with over twice this amount, 127, and even THEY are starved for PP. Even Psionic Fist gets more! Skills... 2+Int. Moving on...

Well, that sucks, but okay, how about Powers... You don't even get one until level 5... and your highest power level is 6th... at 20. So if you lose even 1 ML, no 6th for you. Powers known... 9. Less than Wilder. How about ML? Gods, they aren't even full manifesting! That's right, your ML as a Divine Mind = your class level minus four!

The tears sting my eyes at this point, but I keep going. All right, so we've tossed 95% of Psionic PrCs out the window... maybe staying the base class is worth it. There's got to be something.

So, the auras. First off, the basic bonuses are all morale, so I hope you don't have a bard in the party. It also means they can't stack with each other, so you can't load up on, say, attack auras - you'll have to do 1 attack, 1 defense, 1 perception. Actually, scratch that - you don't get your 3rd aura until level 20, so you basically only have two for the game. They take an hour to switch, so you're screwed if you go into battle with the wrong one. This speeds up to a standard at 8th, move at 14th and swift at 18th. Sound good? Personally, I'd love to swap auras and full attack some time before near-epic, but that's just me. And they scale terribly - the bonuses generally accrue every 6 levels. That's a whole campaign for some parties. (I promised I wouldn't cry.)

Divine Grace... the curly twist at the top of this pile of excrement. It's the only ability they have that needs Charisma. So for a save bonus, you can make yourself MAD.

To summarize: Do Not Want.

Draz74
2010-04-02, 03:54 PM
Divine Mind would be playable, but still not strong, if you gave it full BAB and replaced its whole aura system with the Dragon Shaman's aura system.

absolmorph
2010-04-02, 04:16 PM
Divine Mind makes me rage.
How the BOOP does a Psionic class "fall?" And why do they need a deity?? :smallfurious:

All right, I think, the flavor sucks - they just took a Paladin, gave it some PP, and called it "psionic," but maybe the mechanics can save it.

So how many base PP does it get at level 20... 62.
For reference, a Psywar ends up with over twice this amount, 127, and even THEY are starved for PP. Even Psionic Fist gets more! Skills... 2+Int. Moving on...

Well, that sucks, but okay, how about Powers... You don't even get one until level 5... and your highest power level is 6th... at 20. So if you lose even 1 ML, no 6th for you. Powers known... 9. Less than Wilder. How about ML? Gods, they aren't even full manifesting! That's right, your ML as a Divine Mind = your class level minus four!

The tears sting my eyes at this point, but I keep going. All right, so we've tossed 95% of Psionic PrCs out the window... maybe staying the base class is worth it. There's got to be something.

So, the auras. First off, the basic bonuses are all morale, so I hope you don't have a bard in the party. It also means they can't stack with each other, so you can't load up on, say, attack auras - you'll have to do 1 attack, 1 defense, 1 perception. Actually, scratch that - you don't get your 3rd aura until level 20, so you basically only have two for the game. They take an hour to switch, so you're screwed if you go into battle with the wrong one. This speeds up to a standard at 8th, move at 14th and swift at 18th. Sound good? Personally, I'd love to swap auras and full attack some time before near-epic, but that's just me. And they scale terribly - the bonuses generally accrue every 6 levels. That's a whole campaign for some parties. (I promised I wouldn't cry.)

Divine Grace... the curly twist at the top of this pile of excrement. It's the only ability they have that needs Charisma. So for a save bonus, you can make yourself MAD.

To summarize: Do Not Want.
:smalleek:
:smallfurious:
That... That poor... I'D RATHER PLAY A STRAIGHT PALADIN PICKING FEATS FOR FLAVOR. That's just... -shudders- That's horrible.
Why did they think this was a good idea? WHY?!
-cries-

DragoonWraith
2010-04-02, 04:24 PM
As bad as the mechanics are (and they are hideous), the fluff is worse.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-22, 08:19 PM
As bad as the mechanics are (and they are hideous), the fluff is worse.

I've been considering it for gestalt solo: The Time mantle, when paired with Ardent, gets me +4 ini, +1 reflex, steely resolve (effectively, but worse) d10 HD and +1 attack aura, I know I can't do both... +2 PP, is handy.

wow.

EDIT: Okay, I take it back. It is pretty bad. At least the mantle abilities are good. The aligned ones are, I think, a bit better than the paladin smite, and You have unlimited uses per day, provided you can get psionically focused. But, in practise, you'll get focus maybe once an encounter, as a full round is too much, but still. Swift powers can help you get it done.

Divine Mind would benefit a lot more if the mantle granted aura was part of his basic aura, and if he had full base attack.

Dante