The Ming Dynasty vs Faerun (Shou Lung v.s Earth)

[ArlEammon]

http://www.answers.com/topic/ming-dynasty-1

The Ming Dynasty has 100,000,000 people, this is the 16th century China version of the Ming Dynasty. Ming Dynasty starts with no magic. However, they took a first glance at their neighbors and through a combination of bad luck and ambition, they notice that their neighbors have absolutely tiny populations. The Ming Dynasty replaces Shou Lung and Shou Lung replaces the Ming Dynasty.

Shou Lung notices that no one has magic. They want to conquer Earth in the 16th century.

[deuxhero]

Elminsue beats them singly handedly, not much of an issue.

[ArlEammon]

Oh, you mean Elminster? Sorry, no. Elminster is no match for 3,000,000 soldiers.

[deuxhero]

He's an epic wizard (with a fighter dip for some reason, but an epic wizard), how is he not? Assuming that they actually fight on the same side (It's not "Ming Dynasty is introduced to Faerun", but them fighting the entire thing) you have the Red Wizards and the (assuming they are canon) epic level parties from the cRPGs as well.

[Mauther]

Shou Lung tries to conquer their neighbors, but realizes there is no weave and they are completely cut off from their divine patrons. They also come to realize that d20's firearms rules are hopelessly unrealistic due to interest in game balance. Shou Lung depopulates by several million as they come to realize they should have been preparing with d20 modern instead of the FRCS. Shou Lung is kicked around by Korea and steppe nomads until eventually carved up by European commercial interests.

Ming Dynasty does absolutely fine in Faerun because no one ever updates the campaign setting for the Far East.

[ArlEammon]

I'm just saying, that Elminster might be able to eventually beat them, but with interferrence from his enemies, I don't think that he can afford to waste so many spells on China right now.

[Mauther]

Oh, you mean Elminster? Sorry, no. Elminster is no match for 3,000,000 soldiers.

Does Dr'zzt get to dual weild? because if so he'll single handedly stop the 3 million. The Mings are screwed because they are real, they lack dramatic ability. Elminster wouldn't even have to get off his stool or put down his wacky pipe. 2 or 3 epic spells should do the trick.

[ArlEammon]

Does Dr'zzt get to dual weild? because if so he'll single handedly stop the 3 million. The Mings are screwed because they are real, they lack dramatic ability. Elminster wouldn't even have 2 get of his stool or put down his wacky pipe. 2 or 3 epic spells should do the trick.

Drizz't is level 18. . He's not even epic.
Elminster, well, I stand by my statement. I don't think he would murder 100,000,000 people, and milions of soldiers aren't going to just attack with a stack of doom.

[deuxhero]

Whats the research time for an epic sleep spell? (and I don't think it's "murder" in opening war). Even if he wasn't willing to do it, the Red Wizards sure would be.

[ArlEammon]

Hypothetical situation;
China declares war on Israel (Just a hypothetical situation) Israel kills everyone in China with nukes. Was that not murder because it was war?

[Mauther]

Drizz't is level 18. . He's not even epic.
Elminster, well, I stand by my statement. I don't think he would murder 100,000,000 people, and milions of soldiers aren't going to just attack with a stack of doom.

What option do they have. The Mings are all 1st level warriors.

In all seriousness (I can't believe I just typed that) I think your over rating the Mings. While they had a vast population, they had almost no ability to project that. The sheer logistics of a population of that size choked any real benefit except as a reactionary force. One of China's histroical problems was their large population. It made them nearly unconquerable (again because of the logistics of taking and holding a population that large) but the soceital inertia imposed by those harsh realities pretty much put the kabosh on grand ambitions.

Game wise, Ming would never get to threaten the west. Assuming it transposes with Shou, then they will first come into conflict with T'u Lung. Since T'u has managed to blunt Shou, I see no reason they couldn't stop non magical Ming.

[ArlEammon]

The Ming Dynasty's warriors were highly trained. They were most likely more like level 3 or 4 soldiers, # 1 point.

#2 point, The Ming Dynasty has gun powder. I'm assuming both gun powder for Chinese works and magic for Shou Lung works here.

[deuxhero]

Hypothetical situation;
China declares war on Israel (Just a hypothetical situation) Israel kills everyone in China with nukes. Was that not murder because it was war?

Nuclear war doesn't work that way. Population centers (except capitals for the leaders) aren't traditional targets.

And the trend of discussion was about an epic level wizard taking on soldiers, not destroying civilian populations.

[chiasaur11]

Nuclear war doesn't work that way. Population centers (except capitals for the leaders) aren't traditional targets.

And the trend of discussion was about an epic level wizard taking on soldiers, not destroying civilian populations.

Unless one is playing Defcon, the game of nuclear war.

[ArlEammon]

Nuclear war doesn't work that way. Population centers (except capitals for the leaders) aren't traditional targets.

And the trend of discussion was about an epic level wizard taking on soldiers, not destroying civilian populations.

Oh, soldiers... I get it. Sorry. :)

[Mauther]

The Ming Dynasty's warriors were highly trained. They were most likely more like level 3 or 4 soldiers, # 1 point.

#2 point, The Ming Dynasty has gun powder. I'm assuming both gun powder for Chinese works and magic for Shou Lung works here.

Point #1 The Ming may have had some trained warriors, but no pre industrial civilization had 3 million highly trained soldiers. The vast majority of the Ming army were conscripts. The Ming never really demonstrated real martial dynamics (despite revisionist movements over the past 2 decades). The great strength of the Ming were their ability to maintain order in their vast population, their ability to introduce limited industry into general Chinese society, and their merchant capacity. As a martial power, they really only had sheer numbers.

Point #2, the Ming had primitive guns, but the d20 rules for guns don't favor their useage. I was assuming the Ming guns would equate to the blackpowder guns listed in the Faerun Guide. There's no reason the Shou Lung magic should work on Earth. Granted, I'm real hazy on my planescape, but the dominant magic setting for Earth would be at least heavily impaired.

[ArlEammon]

Point #1 The Ming may have had some trained warriors, but no pre industrial civilization had 3 million highly trained soldiers. The vast majority of the Ming army were conscripts. The Ming never really demonstrated real martial dynamics (despite revisionist movements over the past 2 decades). The great strength of the Ming were their ability to maintain order in their vast population, their ability to introduce limited industry into general Chinese society, and their merchant capacity. As a martial power, they really only had sheer numbers.

Point #2, the Ming had primitive guns, but the d20 rules for guns don't favor their useage. I was assuming the Ming guns would equate to the blackpowder guns listed in the Faerun Guide. There's no reason the Shou Lung magic should work on Earth. Granted, I'm real hazy on my planescape, but the dominant magic setting for Earth would be at least heavily impaired.

#1: I've heard differently, actually, about the Martial abilities of the Ming. Yeah, I have no idea the exact number of soldiers so I'll just conceed that point.

#2: Let's just throw out d20 rules and game mechanics and focus on fluff.

[The_JJ]

The Ming's have a pretty good chance of laying a leathal beatdown onto the great big heroes of the world. But a few fireballs or even a descent engagement from the more powerful forces are going to start a rout. Lethality isn't the point, morale is.

Massed arrow fire meets a few teleporting wizards with defensive spells up, they get in close enough to use a few AoE's and it's game over.

[grolim]

Don't forget elemental and various other summoned nasties to be turned loose, many of which could be immune to non-magic weapons. A few protection from non magic missles spells. Earth to mud, chain lightnings, total rout.