[3.5] Short newbie Swordsage question

[Torvon]

TOB is talking about "levels", and I'm not sure whether they refer to Class levels, or general character levels, regarding the maneuvers (table 3-1, p. 39).

Do I need to have character level 5/6 in order to learn 3rd level maneuvers - or do I need to have level 5/6 in Swordsage for that?

Thanks :smallcool:
Torvon

[Last Laugh]

Initiator levels (level in martial class(swordsage in this example) + 1/2 level in non-martial class)
4 fighter/3 swordsage would have an initiator level of 5
For quick and easy questions use one of the simple question and answer threads ^^

[tyckspoon]

They actually mean Initiator Level, which is the Tome of Battle equivalent of caster level for spells. In the simplest case- where you single-class one of the ToB base classes- your Initiator Level is equal to your character level, and you would need 5 levels of Swordsage to select 3rd level maneuvers. It gets a little more complicated by the rules for multiclassing and initiator level- every other class gives you 1 IL/2 levels. A Fighter 2/Swordsage 4 also has IL 5 and can select 3rd level maneuvers, as does a Monk2/Rogue2/Swordsage 3, or a Barbarian 4/Warblade 3..

[Torvon]

Ok, great, thanks.

That also means that multiclassing into Swordsage early for just 2 levels or so isn't really worth it, because I cannot change the maneuvers lateron, and I can only chose rather weak maneuvers, whereas dipping into Swordsage for 2 levels lateron (like lvl 11/12) allows me to take rather powerful maneuvers.

Did i get that right?

[Douglas]

You need to have Initiator Level 5 or higher for the class you are getting the maneuver from. Every level of the base class counts for 1, every level of a PrC that grants new maneuvers counts for 1, and every other level counts for 1/2. These characters could learn level 3 maneuvers: Swordsage 5, Swordsage 3/Maneuver PrC 2 (not that any of them can be entered that early), Other 8/SS 1, Other 4/SS 3, Other 4/SS 2/Maneuver PrC 1. Any of these numbers can be increased, and this is not an exhaustive list, and each of these examples is at the minimum to learn a level 3 maneuver.

Note that for multiclass characters, such as a Swordsage/Warblade, each maneuver is considered to belong to one base class (even if you're getting it from a PrC, in which case you get to choose which base class gets it), and each base class has a separate Initiator Level. For Swordsage IL, Warblade counts as "other" and only contributes half. For Warblade IL, Swordsage counts as "other and only contributes half. Maneuver-granting PrCs count for both simultaneously. A Swordsage 4/Warblade 6/Maneuver PrC 5 would have an Initiator Level of 4+3+5 = 12 for Swordsage and 2+6+5 = 13 for Warblade.

[Critical]

Ok, great, thanks.

That also means that multiclassing into Swordsage early for just 2 levels or so isn't really worth it, because I cannot change the maneuvers lateron, and I can only chose rather weak maneuvers, whereas dipping into Swordsage for 2 levels lateron (like lvl 11/12) allows me to take rather powerful maneuvers.

Did i get that right?
Yup, other class levels are basically 1/2 initiator level, which makes dipping good here.

[Tinydwarfman]

They actually mean Initiator Level, which is the Tome of Battle equivalent of caster level for spells. In the simplest case- where you single-class one of the ToB base classes- your Initiator Level is equal to your character level, and you would need 5 levels of Swordsage to select 3rd level maneuvers. It gets a little more complicated by the rules for multiclassing and initiator level- every other class gives you 1 IL/2 levels. A Fighter 2/Swordsage 4 also has IL 5 and can select 3rd level maneuvers, as does a Monk2/Rogue2/Swordsage 3, or a Barbarian 4/Warblade 3..

Question: would Warblade1/fighter1/barb1 have an IL of 2? Or do you need fighter 2?

[Draz74]

That also means that multiclassing into Swordsage early for just 2 levels or so isn't really worth it, because I cannot change the maneuvers lateron, and I can only chose rather weak maneuvers, whereas dipping into Swordsage for 2 levels lateron (like lvl 11/12) allows me to take rather powerful maneuvers.

Did i get that right?

It depends what maneuvers you want out of it. Some low-level maneuvers are pretty awesome no matter how high-level you are. The Concentration save-replacement counters from Diamond Mind, for example.

Also, note that if you wait until Level 13 or so to enter Swordsage, you'll be able to pick Level 4 maneuvers right away, sure, but you won't have the prerequisite maneuvers for most Level 4 maneuvers. :smalltongue:


Question: would Warblade1/fighter1/barb1 have an IL of 2? Or do you need fighter 2?

IL 2.

[tyckspoon]

Ok, great, thanks.

That also means that multiclassing into Swordsage early for just 2 levels or so isn't really worth it, because I cannot change the maneuvers lateron, and I can only chose rather weak maneuvers, whereas dipping into Swordsage for 2 levels lateron (like lvl 11/12) allows me to take rather powerful maneuvers.

Did i get that right?

Depends on how much Tome of Battle you intend to use, really. If you're going to restrict yourself to a dip, then yes, it works better taken later rather than sooner (Although Swordsage makes a good 1st level, thanks to good skillpoints and static bonus effects.) If you plan to use a more even distribution, then you can use the retraining/maneuver swapping rules to trade out your low-level maneuvers for higher ones when you take your additional ToB levels.

[Torvon]

Depends on how much Tome of Battle you intend to use, really. If you're going to restrict yourself to a dip, then yes, it works better taken later rather than sooner (Although Swordsage makes a good 1st level, thanks to good skillpoints and static bonus effects.) If you plan to use a more even distribution, then you can use the retraining/maneuver swapping rules to trade out your low-level maneuvers for higher ones when you take your additional ToB levels.
I plan on rogue/swashbuckler with a bit of "magic" flair, to give the character some background and style (and versatility).

So, I only plan on 2 or 3 levels of swordsage.

[Cicciograna]

Question: would Warblade1/fighter1/barb1 have an IL of 2? Or do you need fighter 2?

IL for this build is 2:

1 coming from Warblade 1;
1/2 from Fighter 1;
1/2 from Barbarian 1.

[Eldariel]

I plan on rogue/swashbuckler with a bit of "magic" flair, to give the character some background and style (and versatility).

So, I only plan on 2 or 3 levels of swordsage.

Daring Swordsage is actually an old Char Ops build; basically Rogue 4/Swordsage 2/Swashbuckler 14. Swordsage-levels taken one early (to enable taking Shadow Blade, for the free Weapon Focus and for some maneuvers from Tiger Claw, Desert Wind & co. that synergise wonderfully with TWF; most notably Wolf Fang Strike) and one later, as late as you can afford. Or well, at minimum: Rogue 3 (for Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape; makes your Sneak Attack infinitely more useful) & Swordsage 2 (allows picking Assassin's Stance and such).

Optimally you'd want level 5 maneuvers (this would mean level 15) so you can pick up Pouncing Charge (action-free way to make full attack at reach; absolutely critical for higher level TWFer). Either way, this gets you Assassin's Stance & some handy higher level maneuvers, along with Wis to AC in your (probably) light armor. If you can't wait that long, a 3-time-dip build is still fine and ends with the same amount of SA dice in the end (9d6). Strategic times for the dips are early on, level 8 (for Assassin's Stance & level 3s) and then finally level 14 (for Pouncing Charge). You can use Wands of Lion's Charge to get you by until level 14 as Swift Action means of getting Pounce. Still, everyone knows how awesome it is to free up your swift actions.


I actually used one of these in the Test of Might-builds long ago, except I eschewed the Swashbuckler for more Rogue as this guy was my primary skillmonkey. You can find him here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=128332); just in case it's of any interest to you (Tactile Trapsmith could easily become Daring Outlaw).

[Torvon]

@ Eldariel:

Thanks a lot. I will explain a bit further which problems I currently have with the build.

@ Everybody else: ofc I'd be glad if you would answer me, too :) ....

(1) MAD
I need a lot of DEX, obviously. I imagine the character as high CHA, bluffing, cheating, tricking, talking his wait out of situations. It is going to be a social campaign, I simply cannot dump CHA.
As skill monkey, I need some INT (also: Insightful Strike from Swashbuckler), als WIS for skills (like spot and listen) + AC from Swordsage.
That leaves STR and CON as dump stats. I would love to dump STR, but then I end up sucking hard with my physical skills like jump or climb. Dumping CON will kill me.
So, I don't know what to do.

(2) TO HIT: Weapon Finesse
My problem with all the builds out there is: I start the character at level 1. With keeping STR low, I will SUCK in combats until I get weapon finesse. And if I take 1 level Swashbuckler too early (at second level, e.g.), I lose a SA level because I can't take the DAring Outlaw feat before having I 3 levels of Rogue (since 2d6 SA is needed).
With the build you suggest, I get Weapon Finesse @ lvl 7 (!). I will utterly suck until then :/ ... running around with a +5 to hit or something when dual wielding on level 7. My Fighter has +9 to hit on level 3, and +15 to hit on charges ... and does 2w6+12 (PowerAttack) damage on a normal hit, and I won't even start talking about charge. With enlarge person and rage it's insane, I 1shot a Grell on level 2.

(3) DAMAGE
Shadow Blade early. It's a crazy damage boost. BUT taking it early also means I suck @ I can only chose low level maneuvers. I don't know what to do really.
BTW: I don't understand Wolf Fang Strike. What's the difference to a normal TWF attack?

(4) RACE
Yes yes, Whisper Gnome for min-maxing, but I simply don't want to play a Gnome. I want to play a good looking, arrogant, mysterious sword fighter (more of a fencer actually). I guess Halfling bonuses look nice, maybe a human for able learner?

(5) TWF
It's the way to go, right? I was thinking maybe rapier + hand-crossbow or something weird ... but that would too much nerf the damage I guess. All the builds I've found on the net were TWF for rogue/swashbuckler.

(6) MORE
Maybe I'm completely on the wrong track, though? I am not very experienced with D&D 3.5.
I want to play a skilled fencer, who does not necessarily kill stuff, but plays around with them (disarm, trip), who talks while fighting, who is arrogant. Who is good looking, handles people rather easily, has a too high opinion of himself. He should be a skill monkey, to some degree, a decent thief, and I want him to be at least ok with ranged weapons. We are playing with the deviant feat progression (a feat every odd level), so I will have a bit more feats than normally.
AND I want him to always have some "tricks" up his sleave. It is going to be a very social campaign, I won't only need combat tricks, but other stuff as well. That's why I went for Swordsage and Swashbuckler Arcane Stunt feat, but I'm still not happy. Have only played a straightforward barbarian/fighter charger so far, so I'm not familiar with most of the D&D 3.5 stuff really.

Do you have suggestions in another direction? Maybe I'M too focused on rogue/swashb/swordsage.

I looked @ some prestige classes, like duelist, or the funny whisperknife, but I don't find them very interesting.

Hmmm ... :)

Thanks, and sorry for the long posting.

ta-ta
Torvon

I was thinking something like this

01 Rogue | TWF, ??? (strongheart, maybe imp. INI), SA1, Trapfinding
02 Rogue | Evasion
03 Rogue | Craven, SA2, Penetr. Strike
04 Swashbuckler | Weapon Finesse
05 Swordsage | Shadow Blade, Quick to Act+1, Weapon Focus
06 Swashbuckler | Arcane Stunt
07 Swashbuckler | Daring Outlaw, SA3 (late!!)
08 Rogue | SA4, Uncanny Dodge
09 ?? | ITWF
...

I get Weapon Finesse @ 4 (late, but ok I guess), Shadow Blade 5 (late, but ok I guess), but my SA will utterly suck until level 7.
Gnmpf.

[AslanCross]

Wolf Fang Strike is a standard action. TWF is a full round action. WFS is the easiest, earliest way to make TWF not suck.

[Eldariel]

(1) MAD
I need a lot of DEX, obviously. I imagine the character as high CHA, bluffing, cheating, tricking, talking his wait out of situations. It is going to be a social campaign, I simply cannot dump CHA.
As skill monkey, I need some INT (also: Insightful Strike from Swashbuckler), als WIS for skills (like spot and listen) + AC from Swordsage.
That leaves STR and CON as dump stats. I would love to dump STR, but then I end up sucking hard with my physical skills like jump or climb. Dumping CON will kill me.

Go high Dex and semi-high Con. Then make do with slightly-above-average Int, Wis & Cha (Cha 12, Wis 14, Int 14 for example). Yeah, you'll need to dump Str. Don't worry:
1) You can just make those checks with your skillpoints
2) Magic obsoletes those skills soon enough anyways


(2) TO HIT: Weapon Finesse
My problem with all the builds out there is: I start the character at level 1. With keeping STR low, I will SUCK in combats until I get weapon finesse. And if I take 1 level Swashbuckler too early (at second level, e.g.), I lose a SA level because I can't take the DAring Outlaw feat before having I 3 levels of Rogue (since 2d6 SA is needed).

With the build you suggest, I get Weapon Finesse @ lvl 7 (!). I will utterly suck until then :/ ... running around with a +5 to hit or something when dual wielding on level 7. My Fighter has +9 to hit on level 3, and +15 to hit on charges ... and does 2w6+12 (PowerAttack) damage on a normal hit, and I won't even start talking about charge. With enlarge person and rage it's insane, I 1shot a Grell on level 2.

Uhm, +15 to hit on charges? How do you get +6 to hit on a charge again? Normally it's just +2... But yeah, you won't be a Fighter. Deal with it. If you have to start on level 1, get a Crossbow. Or a dozen. Purchase lots of Alchemist's Fire.

You should fight ranged until you get Weapon Finesse. Simply put, there's no reason to go to melee attacking at +0. Combined with your Sneak Attack, this'll give you credible damage and most notably, excellent To Hit (as Alchemist's Fire attacks Touch AC).


(3) DAMAGE
Shadow Blade early. It's a crazy damage boost. BUT taking it early also means I suck @ I can only chose low level maneuvers. I don't know what to do really.
BTW: I don't understand Wolf Fang Strike. What's the difference to a normal TWF attack?

The fact that it's a Standard Action. You can move and attack with both weapons with Wolf Fang Strike. Also, you can pick up Daring Outlaw on level 6. Though I'd pick Craven up first (on your very first levels). But yeah, those two combined will ensure your damage output remains respectable even before Shadow Blade.


(4) RACE
Yes yes, Whisper Gnome for min-maxing, but I simply don't want to play a Gnome. I want to play a good looking, arrogant, mysterious sword fighter (more of a fencer actually). I guess Halfling bonuses look nice, maybe a human for able learner?

Gnomes...well, yeah, but since you remain unseen there's no reason to show your race, is there? Fact is that you want some stat boosts and Whisper Gnome has good ones. Also, it's Small (which gives you the all-important +1 to Hit and more importantly, +4 to Hide) and still moves 30' a turn. Halfling (particularly of the Strongheart-variety) is also nice, but 20' movement is really a bitch for...anyone.

Able Learner is nice, but you really want the racial Hide-bonuses here, and small size with Dex-bonus would help you a ton.


(5) TWF
It's the way to go, right? I was thinking maybe rapier + hand-crossbow or something weird ... but that would too much nerf the damage I guess. All the builds I've found on the net were TWF for rogue/swashbuckler.

Yeah, when you add large amounts of damage on every attack, it's a good idea to maximize your number of attacks. Drow of the Underdark actually has feats specifically for Hand Crossbow+Rapier-based combat, but that's at your discretion. May interest you, but you'd want some way to reload the Crossbow easily for that to work. E.g. Glove of Storing (once you can afford it) or some magic (Ghostly Reload)


(6) MORE
Maybe I'm completely on the wrong track, though? I am not very experienced with D&D 3.5.
I want to play a skilled fencer, who does not necessarily kill stuff, but plays around with them (disarm, trip), who talks while fighting, who is arrogant. Who is good looking, handles people rather easily, has a too high opinion of himself. He should be a skill monkey, to some degree, a decent thief, and I want him to be at least ok with ranged weapons. We are playing with the deviant feat progression (a feat every odd level), so I will have a bit more feats than normally.
AND I want him to always have some "tricks" up his sleave. It is going to be a very social campaign, I won't only need combat tricks, but other stuff as well. That's why I went for Swordsage and Swashbuckler Arcane Stunt feat, but I'm still not happy. Have only played a straightforward barbarian/fighter charger so far, so I'm not familiar with most of the D&D 3.5 stuff really.

Do you have suggestions in another direction? Maybe I'M too focused on rogue/swashb/swordsage.

Take Use Magic Device. Pack some Wands. Pack various mundane items. Come up with imaginative uses for your skills. Always be on top of the situation.

I explored earlier that there are just too few skills to truly be master of everything you'd expect a thief to do, but specialize and cover multiple areas with as few skills as possible.

You'll be respectable with ranged weapons just on the fact that you have Sneak Attack; get a Wand of Sniper's Shot to Sneak Attack at any range and you'll be fine.

For the "playing around"-part, you can't really afford the feats here, but you can use various maneuvers. Though make no mistake, you'll be most adept at killing people. That's just what Sneak Attack does. But you can couple that with nice quips or some such.

Though frankly? Straight Swordsage with maybe Rogue-dip for Able Learner might be able to cover what you want a bit better. That or Factotum. Rogue/Swashbuckler's real shine comes from Sneak Attack. Much depends on how much you care for that.


01 Rogue | TWF, ??? (strongheart, maybe imp. INI), SA1, Trapfinding
02 Rogue | Evasion
03 Rogue | Craven, SA2, Penetr. Strike
04 Swashbuckler | Weapon Finesse
05 Swordsage | Shadow Blade, Quick to Act+1, Weapon Focus
06 Swashbuckler | Arcane Stunt
07 Swashbuckler | Daring Outlaw, SA3 (late!!)
08 Rogue | SA4, Uncanny Dodge
09 ?? | ITWF
...

I get Weapon Finesse @ 4 (late, but ok I guess), Shadow Blade 5 (late, but ok I guess), but my SA will utterly suck until level 7.
Gnmpf.

Yeah, just use ranged weapons until you get your TWF stuff in place (remember, you can TWF Hand Crossbows too). That looks about right. Though how you pick Shadow Blade on level 5 I don't get; you don't get a feat on that level normally.

[Torvon]

Go high Dex and semi-high Con. Then make do with slightly-above-average Int, Wis & Cha (Cha 12, Wis 14, Int 14 for example). Yeah, you'll need to dump Str. Don't worry:
1) You can just make those checks with your skillpoints
2) Magic obsoletes those skills soon enough anyways
Right, thanks.



Uhm, +15 to hit on charges? How do you get +6 to hit on a charge again? Normally it's just +2... But yeah, you won't be a Fighter. Deal with it. If you have to start on level 1, get a Crossbow. Or a dozen. Purchase lots of Alchemist's Fire.

You should fight ranged until you get Weapon Finesse. Simply put, there's no reason to go to melee attacking at +0. Combined with your Sneak Attack, this'll give you credible damage and most notably, excellent To Hit (as Alchemist's Fire attacks Touch AC).
There is a +4 to hit warrior feat (furious charge).
Ranged sounds fun, dual wielding crossbows even more so. ALchemist's Fire is pretty expensive with 20 gold in the start, but I'll manage, I guess. Nice idea with the touch attack!


The fact that it's a Standard Action. You can move and attack with both weapons with Wolf Fang Strike. Also, you can pick up Daring Outlaw on level 6. Though I'd pick Craven up first (on your very first levels). But yeah, those two combined will ensure your damage output remains respectable even before Shadow Blade.
Don't find a way to cram Craven in, but yeah, it's very nice.


Gnomes...well, yeah, but since you remain unseen there's no reason to show your race, is there? Fact is that you want some stat boosts and Whisper Gnome has good ones. Also, it's Small (which gives you the all-important +1 to Hit and more importantly, +4 to Hide) and still moves 30' a turn. Halfling (particularly of the Strongheart-variety) is also nice, but 20' movement is really a bitch for...anyone.

Able Learner is nice, but you really want the racial Hide-bonuses here, and small size with Dex-bonus would help you a ton.
Ok, convinced I guess...


Yeah, when you add large amounts of damage on every attack, it's a good idea to maximize your number of attacks. Drow of the Underdark actually has feats specifically for Hand Crossbow+Rapier-based combat, but that's at your discretion. May interest you, but you'd want some way to reload the Crossbow easily for that to work. E.g. Glove of Storing (once you can afford it) or some magic (Ghostly Reload)
"At your discretion" means "it sucks but it's your character, so go for it if you want to" ? :p I'll read the feats.
I love ranged, maybe I'll actually consider something more "rangy". I have a rogue with incredible damage output in 4e.


Take Use Magic Device. Pack some Wands. Pack various mundane items. Come up with imaginative uses for your skills. Always be on top of the situation.
Yar, thanks, good idea.


Though frankly? Straight Swordsage with maybe Rogue-dip for Able Learner might be able to cover what you want a bit better. That or Factotum. Rogue/Swashbuckler's real shine comes from Sneak Attack. Much depends on how much you care for that.
Yeah, just use ranged weapons until you get your TWF stuff in place (remember, you can TWF Hand Crossbows too). That looks about right. Though how you pick Shadow Blade on level 5 I don't get; you don't get a feat on that level normally.
I'll look into it. Thank you very very much so far.

Last question: is there any good and comprehensive list about sneak attacks -- what different ways and methods I can take and abuse to get a SA in? Would help me greatly, since I'M not so very familiar with 3.5e yet.
Especially the "enemy doesn't have DEX bonus to armor" thing sounds like there is a great many possibilties to achieve that.

Torvon

EDIT: improved feint + ranged weapon sounds fun, is it worth it? And we play with a different feat progression (I think from pathfinder?), where we gets feats every odd level, that's why I could take Shadow Blade @ 5.

[Eldariel]

There is a +4 to hit warrior feat (furious charge).
Ranged sounds fun, dual wielding crossbows even more so. ALchemist's Fire is pretty expensive with 20 gold in the start, but I'll manage, I guess. Nice idea with the touch attack!

Furious Charge merely makes the bonus +4 instead of +2, meaning it'd be +13. And 20gp...well, sufficient to say it won't be very expensive couple of levels from now. I've got a level 4 Rogue/Wizard who uses them as his primary weapon for now.

Also, regarding Whisper Gnome, I'm actually pretty sure you'll love the spell-likes the race gets (just make sure to have 10+ Charisma so you won't miss out on the fun cantrip-ones). Just think of them as a bit stouter (innately magical) Halflings or small Elves or whatever the heck suits you if the name Gnome rubs you the wrong way.


"At your discretion" means "it sucks but it's your character, so go for it if you want to" ? :p I'll read the feats.
I love ranged, maybe I'll actually consider something more "rangy". I have a rogue with incredible damage output in 4e.

Well, it's a decent path, but it does require taking a bunch of feats that are useful if, and only if, you go all the way on that road. So...yeah. If you're interested, there's a campaign journal in my signature. The Rogue is using that specific line of feats.


Last question: is there any good and comprehensive list about sneak attacks -- what different ways and methods I can take and abuse to get a SA in? Would help me greatly, since I'M not so very familiar with 3.5e yet.
Especially the "enemy doesn't have DEX bonus to armor" thing sounds like there is a great many possibilties to achieve that.

Well, best ways:
- Magic
- Magic
- Magic

Really, were you expecting any different? Well, you've got Swordsage levels, so let's see what you can do:
- First round of combat: Act first and opponents are flat-footed. Also true on surprise round.
- Hide: When you attack from the unseen, they're denied Dex-bonus to AC; get a source of Hide in Plain Sight and you'll be able to knock people upside the forehead; it's only -20 Hide to hide while e.g. attacking. There's e.g. Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis that grants a form of Hide in Plain Sight.
- Distracting Ember: This innocous level 1 maneuver always gives you a flanking partner, which combined with Penetrating Strike means you can always Sneak Attack except for unflankable things (some Oozes and some such).
- Flanking: You have allies (and summons and such). Use 'em.
- Marbles: 1 silver piece-item from Arms & Equipment Guide, anyone walking over Marbles is Balancing and thus denied Dex-bonus to AC unless they have 5 ranks in Balance (Guess how many monsters from MMs have those? 0). Priceless toy, and cheap to boot.
- Grapple: If someone is grappling, they're denied Dex-bonus to AC against everyone but the guy they're grappling. Go stab 'em.

So, that's about it for the mundane (and "mundane") means you have to acquire Sneak Attack. Additionally, there's magic, as touched upon earlier. Short list of magical tools for acquiring Sneak Attack:
- Grease: Same as Marbles; people Balancing on Grease are denied Dex-bonus to AC (Wand it).
- Invisibility (Greater): Too obvious. Worth noting that you go visible after first attack with normal Invis so it's not too useful later on (though early, it'll get you by). Greater has no such issues. Ring can be useful to always SA on your first attack.
- Blink: You strike as Invisible. Further, even though you have miss chance, it's not concealment-based and thus you don't lose out on SA (normally you can't SA while suffering of miss chance). Ring of Blinking is a great investment later on (also gives you a 50% miss chance with regards to most opponents, which conveniently makes you very hard to hit especially coupled with your AC; get Celestial Armor and profit).


EDIT: improved feint + ranged weapon sounds fun, is it worth it? And we play with a different feat progression (I think from pathfinder?), where we gets feats every odd level, that's why I could take Shadow Blade @ 5.

Good. It's a real pain to work with the standard 3.5 limitations on skills and feats. I personally give feat on level 1, 2 and every 2 levels there-after (4, 6, 8, etc.) and +6-8 skillpoints over the normal gap per level with every class and it's still so little people have to think carefully where to invest.

May want to suggest something similar to your DM, actually. Just point out all the skills you'd assume a thief to have and point out how you can't even get half of them with the skillpoint allotment (even with 20 Int on level 1); this particularly hurts Climb/Jump/etc. as those are expendable due to magic so nobody bothers with 'em.

But yeah, just Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy/Sense Motive/Gather Information/Knowledge: Local/Hide/Move Silently/Spot/Listen/Search/Disable Device/Sleight of Hand/Open Lock/Balance/Escape Artist/Tumble is already more than you can take with 20 Int Rogue...and we didn't even get to Climb/Jump/Swim/Appraise/Forgery/Use Rope/Use Magic Device/Disguise yet. So...yeah. More skillpoints. Makes game more fun and Rogues more Rogue-like.


And Improved Feint sucks in 3.5. Don't bother with it. You're better off just hiding or something. Feints in general are fairly bad.

[balistafreak]

Feints would actually be worth something if you could feint as a free/swift action. (If a free action, there is obviously a limit to once a turn.) A few classes actually have an Improved Feint like class-feature, like Beguiler. If you combine it with the actual Improved Feint, you can do it as a swift action. The problem with that is that most of those classes have something better to do with their feats even so (having to take Combat Expertise is almost always terrible) or simply don't benefit much from a feint. :smallannoyed:

Without the class feature... well, it is almost never worth a move action to de-Dex an enemy if you also have to burn two feats to do so. And feinting as a standard action is simply someone's idea of a bad joke.

I've always wondered if it would significantly change anything to make Feinting a move action, turned into a free action with Improved Feint. :smallconfused:

[Eldariel]

I've always wondered if it would significantly change anything to make Feinting a move action, turned into a free action with Improved Feint. :smallconfused:

No. See, you want SA on multiple attacks, not just one. Having to make a very (if opp has Sense Motive; relatively if not) difficult roll and giving up iteratives for one SA just isn't worth it. If you want Feint to be viable, allow replacing an attack action with Feint by default (or Move Action) and then Free Action feint N times per turn where N is your natural number of iteratives with a feat (or leave opponent flat-footed for the rest of your turn with successful feint; probably better as giving every attack you have Feint is just a ton of excess rolling).

Well, that'd help on low levels but on higher levels...meh.

[Torvon]

You're right about Furious Charge, so that's only a +13 to hit then.

Whisper Gnomes rock :) ... just read through it, I love the cantrips. Thanks for your patience there.

I didn't find the feats you mentioned. There's a book called Underdark, with some feats, but only one ranged feat (+2 hit). And I found a pdf with the name you mentioned, but there were not feats included.

Thanks for the sneak list. I love the marbles :p ...

ta-ta
Torvon

EDIT: I checked the link, you talking about Peter or Edmond ?

[Eldariel]

I didn't find the feats you mentioned. There's a book called Underdark, with some feats, but only one ranged feat (+2 hit). And I found a pdf with the name you mentioned, but there were not feats included.

Drow of the Underdark is a book separate from Underdark. It's about...Drow mainly, but has lots of nice Alternative Class Features and feats. It contains Versatile Combatant or something to that effect for TWF Hand Crossbow+Rapier, and Hand Crossbow Focus, which is basically Rapid Reload + Weapon Focus for Hand Crossbow.


EDIT: I checked the link, you talking about Peter or Edmond ?

Edmund fights with Rapier + Hand Crossbow. Though he also carries Light or Heavy (can't remember) Crossbow for the "One Big Shot".

[Torvon]

Righto, things are looking great. I already love the character, although I'll suffer for not playing a swordsage all the way through, so many nice things there. But it's gonna be ok.

What I'm missing now are feats. Since we can take 2 extra feats on the first level, and house-ruled that you get feats every odd level, I'm running out of feats pretty soon.

Obviously, for a Rogue / Swashbuckler / Swordsage:
- Shadow Blade
- Craven
- Daring Outlaw
- TWF and all the follow up feats

Nice ones:
- Staggering Strike
- Imp. Initiative

What else would you recommend?

Also, what skill tricks would you advise?
I read through Complete Scoundrel, and found those interesting:
- Hidden Blade (Sleight of Hand5, Quick Draw): draw weapon in move action, enemy flatfooted
- Spot the Weak Point (Spot12): next attack = touch attack
- Acrobatik Backstab (Tumble12): move through foes space, makes him flatfooted


(Keep in mind: this is going to be a gnome completely dumping STR, only playing with DEX. I don't want him to do good damage normally, except for his sneak attacks which should be ... nice. That's his philosophy, also, a bit like the "water dancer" in "song of ice and fire". You don't have to hit hard. It's not about Strength. Skin and Flesh are soft, it's about where to hit, not how hard.)

Thanks
Torvon

[term1nally s1ck]

Personally, I'd probably get a couple of the additional maneuvers/stances inbetween ssage levels.

[Panigg]

Do monster HD count for purpose of gaining IL?

For example 2 level werewolf + 2 level sword sage = level 3?

[Keld Denar]

Feinting sucks MOSTLY because it requires you to be in melee range. Thats not where you want to be as a ranged attacker. The action tax on top of that is salt in the wounds, IMO.

Take your 1st Swordsage level when you have an IL of 3 (so, Char level 5). This allows you to pick up 1st and 2nd level manevuers. Island of Blades stance should be your stance, and Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Saphire Nightmare Blade, and Cloak of Deception are must have maneuvers. Cloak of Deception gives you Greater Invis for a round, allowing all attacks that round to be sneaks. Wolf Fang is good as described above. Sudden Leap is nice because it allows you to move as a swift action. This can help you get into a position where you can full attack (anywhere adjacent to a foe your ally is fighting, thanks to Island of Blades). You need 3 levels of Rogue and 2 levels of Swashbuckler to qualify for Daring Outlaw (2d6 SA, +1 Grace), so you can sneak in one level of Swordsage in before 6 and still pick up Daring Outlaw at level 6.

If I was you, I'd build in this order:

01 Rogue1 Craven
02 Swash1 Weapon Finesse (B)
03 Rogue2 TWF
04 Rogue3
05 Swordsage1
06 Swash2 Daring Outlaw
07 Swash3
08 Rogue4
09 Swash4 ITWF
10 Swash5
11 Swash6
12 Swash7 Shadow Blade
13 Swash8
14 Swordsage2 (Pouncing Charge + Assassin's Stance)
15 Swash 9 GTWF
16 Swash 10
17 Swash 11
18 Swash 12 Staggering Strike
19 Swash 13
20 Swash 14

It pushes back Shadow Blade a bit, but you can't take it till after that first Swordsage level anyway.

Shadow Blade requires you wield a Shadow Hand weapon. Shortswords are about the best for DW, with Daggers being decent second due to concealability.

Anyone else have any commentary on this recommended build? You could probably swap out one Swash level for a 3rd Swordsage level to pick up Dancing Mongoose, because afterall, 18 effective Rogue levels don't get you any more SA dice than 17 effective Rogue levels, and SS3 is full BAB with decent Skill Points.

[Torvon]

@ Keld Denar:

Thanks for the reply. There are a couple of things I want to comment on:

(1) First Swordsage Level @5, second @8 -- that makes sense in order to grab level 1&2 maneuvers right in the start, and level 3 maneuvers at the second dip.
Perfect.

(2) Is Sapphire Nightmare Blade worth it? Or should I rather use the Distracting Ember for auto-flanking + sneak attacking, seeing that one cannot possibly "miss" to appear?
Also, what about Flashin Sun and Shadow Jaunt?

(3) Since we play with a different feat progression (a feat at every odd level), I can grab Shadow Blade @5, and Daring Outlaw @7.

(4) Also, I was planning on Arcane Stunt instead of Grace (this adds some more tricks to my Whisper Gnome, who is basically an arrogant show-off and needs a couple of tricks up his sleaves ...)

Now, I never even thought about going Swashbuckler all the way, I always thought I'd just take Rogue. Is SB superior? What's the advantages?

Is there a point going SB when I change Grace to Arcane Stunt, seeing that Arcane stunt doesn't scale at all, and Grace would (imo I lose not only Grace, but all Grace buffs lateron also when taking Arcane stunt)?

Up to level 8, I have basically the same overall progression. After that, I'm really not sure yet.

01 RO1 - Craven, TWF (flaw), SA1, Trapfinding
02 SW1 - Weapon Finesse (A)
03 RO2 - Imp. Ini, Evasion (A)
04 RO3 - SA2 (A), Penetr. Strike (A)
05 SS1 - Shadow Blade, Quick2Act (A), Weapon Focus (A)
06 SW2 - Arcane Stunt (A), Dodge+1 (A)
07 RO4 - Daring Outlaw, SA3 (A), Uncanny Dodge (A)
08 SS2 - WI+AC (A)
09 SW3 - ITWF, Insightful Strike (A), SA4 (A)
10 ??????

Help :p

ta-ta
Torvon

[Keld Denar]

Arcane Stunt precludes you from taking Daring Outlaw, according to the prereqs. You need Grace +1 (explicitly) in order to take Daring Outlaw. If you talked to your DM, you might be able to get it waved, but per RAW, you can't have both.

Swashbuckler/Rogue is more combat oriented than Rogue/Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler has a larger HD and full BAB. Thats the glory of it...nearly full SA progression on a full BAB chassis. BAB is important to get more iterative attacks, which mean more SA damage. Its geometric.

If you really want to go with a more roguey feel with a metric boop-ton of skillpoints, I'd drop Swashbuckler altogether. Insightful Strike is only gonna result in 3-5 damage per hit over the life of the character, and isn't worth blowing a whole feat on. You'd be better off just going like, Rogue16/Swordsage4 or something.

As far as Saphire Nightmare vs Distracting Ember or whatever. Some foes are immune to flanking, others are immune to being flatfooted. I guess SNB would require you to sink skill points into Concentration, which you wouldn't do otherwise. Probably better to stick with Distracting Ember then. My bad.

[Endarire]

INTIATOR LEVEL INTRO
Each creature has a separate initiator level for Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade. Your initiator level only matters if you can use maneuvers or/and stances.

FORMULA
Your level in an initiator class (Crusader, etc.):

Level in initiator class + Level in Tome of Battle prestige class(es) + 1/2 other hit dice.

Thus, a typical human Cleric4/Crusader1 has an initiator level of 3 and qualifies for level 2 Crusader maneuvers at character level 5. His first stance must be a level 1 stance for which he qualifies. (Tome of Battle 10 under "Stances Known.")

A 2 HD gnoll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnoll.htm) Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator4 has a Crusader initiator level of 8.

MULTICLASS INITIATORS
If you're a multiclass initiator (like a Crusader/Warblade), things work the same way for each initiator class.

A typical human Cleric1/Swordsage3/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator2 has a Crusader initiator level of 6 and a Crusader initiator level of 5. (Tome of Battle 122 states under Maneuvers, "You add your full Ruby Knight Vindicator levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest level maneuvers known.")

DIPPING
Tome of Battle classes are dip-friendly because they add half their non-class levels to their initiator level.

LINKS
Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357.0)

Tome of Battle Build Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle:_Build_Compendium)

Tome of Battle Build Compendium II (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871534/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium_II)

[Torvon]

Arcane Stunt precludes you from taking Daring Outlaw, according to the prereqs. You need Grace +1 (explicitly) in order to take Daring Outlaw. If you talked to your DM, you might be able to get it waved, but per RAW, you can't have both.
Thanks, I didn't know that. Will talk to GM about it.


Swashbuckler/Rogue is more combat oriented than Rogue/Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler has a larger HD and full BAB. Thats the glory of it...nearly full SA progression on a full BAB chassis. BAB is important to get more iterative attacks, which mean more SA damage. Its geometric.
Right, I didn't know that either, I just checked the rogue BAB, it stops for one level @ 6, 9 and 12. So SB gives me 3 more BAB.


If you really want to go with a more roguey feel with a metric boop-ton of skillpoints, I'd drop Swashbuckler altogether. Insightful Strike is only gonna result in 3-5 damage per hit over the life of the character, and isn't worth blowing a whole feat on. You'd be better off just going like, Rogue16/Swordsage4 or something.
I was actually considering ignoring the whole SB thing. I'd go for INT14 on that char, so that's only a +2 damage on insightful strike. Not worth it, I agree. The only reason I wanted to dip into SB was Arcane Stunt really. I need (if the DM allows it) at least 2 levels SB for it, though (since you get Grace+1 @ SB level 2).
Hm.

--
EDIT: Hm, SB gives me Weapon Finesse, and I have to "pay" Daring Outlaw. Sounds like equal, so it really doesn't eat up a feat.
--

Well, the rogue gives me a few nice feats, but nothing is really necessary. With Savvy Rogue feat, some are pretty good, but still nothing "uber".

SW gives me some nice feats as well, duh. Missing skillpoints then, though.
Args, I'll have to rethink the whole thing. goddamnit :p


As far as Saphire Nightmare vs Distracting Ember or whatever. Some foes are immune to flanking, others are immune to being flatfooted. I guess SNB would require you to sink skill points into Concentration, which you wouldn't do otherwise. Probably better to stick with Distracting Ember then. My bad.
Oh well, I won't have the points to max Concentration I guess, would only be worth it if I went SS all the way and use conc for other stuff, too (like will and fortitude saves etc).

thanks so far
torvon

[Keld Denar]

You could always go Swordsage20...Its pretty simple, nets you a TON of manevuers, of which the higher level ones are sexy. Or you could do something like a SS16/Rogue3/Warb1. That gives you Trapfinding, 2d6 SA all the time regardless of stance (and access to CRAVEN), and a couple of Warblade manevuers to handle things like Conc save counters or whatever.

But yea...Swashbuckler is either an all or nothing investment, IMO, unless you have an absolutely INSANE Int.

[Torvon]

Ok, thanks.

Last question: any other ideas how to easily grab some fluff tricks (like Arcane Stunt, Whisper Gnome Cantrips, or some of the Swordsage maneuvers)? DM gives us 2 bonus feats on first level, maybe that helps? I really haven't played D&D3.5e very long, so am a bit lost here :)

If that's possible, I might just go Rogue with a bit of Swordsage and ignore the Swashbuckler.

ta-ta
Torvon

[Keld Denar]

You can simulate a lot of the effects you'd get from Arcane Stunt with low level wands and UMD. Other than that, there are some feats around in Complete Arcane and a few other sources that give you access to a couple of cantrips a small number of times per day. They aren't really that good, but can be useful if thats what you are going for.

Arcane Stunt itself is very limited in what you can do, and how often. You really aren't losing that much without it. Swordsage manevuers give you a lot of the cool things you'd probably be interested in anyway. What exactly did you want Arcane Stunt for anyway?

[Torvon]

Oh well, Swashbuckler gives the Weapon Finesse for free, Dodge also stacks with Rogue levels lateron (with Daring Outlaw, that is), and level2 Grace can be exchanged for Arcane Stunt ... so I just thought it might be handy for what I had in mind.

I don't have to have it. But I imagine that little WhisperGnome, totally arrogant, Mr. know-it-all, Mr. I-can-do-everything, Mr. Brave and Glamour and I'm-the-best-in-general.

So the more tricks he has, the better :). And it's going to be a rather social campaign, so I mustn't just think about combat.

And well, Blur is nice, I guess, so is spider climb or even jump (since my strength sucks, I actually plan on taking 10-2 from the start). With INT14, I'd have 3 uses per day, not too bad.

I'll check the additional feats you mentioned out. And I'll look into some skill tricks, I can probably find some neat stuff there.

ta-ta
Torvon

[Keld Denar]

I don't have to have it. But I imagine that little WhisperGnome, totally arrogant, Mr. know-it-all, Mr. I-can-do-everything, Mr. Brave and Glamour and I'm-the-best-in-general.


All you need for this is a REALLY REALLY BIG HAT with a REALLY REALLY BIG FEATHER. Consider Captain Jack Sparrow, or Jarlaxle.

And it doesn't sound like getting free Weapon Finesse is a really boon, what with all of the extra feats your DM gives you. Just take it at 3rd or so. You should have at least a +1 BAB by then.

Spider Climb is easy to get for 1000g from Slippers of Spider Climb. Blur would be pretty useful, but IMO, not worth dropping 2 levels for it.

[Torvon]

Thank you, that was incredibly helpful.

That's my final result, comparing both possibilities:

http://www.revelation-of-silence.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/comparison.png

I won't go full SB, just doesn't fit the concept.

Maybe I shouldn't go for 4 levels of Swordsage in the first build?

ta-ta
Torvon

EDIT: aight, I'm gonna get the BIGGEST HAT EVER (sic!) + feather. It will be totally and massively huge. :p

EDIT2: GAH, level 4 maneuvers totally suck! I should rather wait with third and fourth level Swordsage until I can grab level 5 maneuvers I guess.

[Eldariel]

EDIT2: GAH, level 4 maneuvers totally suck! I should rather wait with third and fourth level Swordsage until I can grab level 5 maneuvers I guess.

Totally don't. Bounding Assault is 4, as is Searing Blade. Bounding Assault kinda needs Pounce to be good, but Pounce is easy enough to acquire; if you don't get it from class, just get Wand of Lion's Pounce. Comet Throw isn't horrible either and there are some rather powerful side-effects in Strikes on this level.

They aren't the best for a TWF dipper though; you may want to consider Searing Blade as against anyone not resistant to fire, it's an absolute damage beast, and you have enough maneuvers known to prepare it with little trouble.

[Endarire]

As for an arcane Rogue, dipping Conjurer1 for Abrupt Jaunt also gets you some spiffy tricks. Jade Phoenix Mage via Swordsage may work well for you, but you'd need to greatly want to be a sneaky arcanist for that.

You could be an Arcane Swordsage (Tome of Battle 20), but talk to your DM about how this would work. If Arcane Swordsage is A-OK, Jade Phoenix Mage may be an uber PrC. It depends on if each JPM doubly advances your 'maneuver' or 'spell' progression. Even if not, it's worthy.

For an arcane-heavy arcane Rogue, consider Rogue1/Conjurer4 OR 5/Unseen Seer9/Arcane TricksterX.

[Torvon]

Great, thanks.
Talking about a human warblade here now, so don't get confused. I just don't want to open another thread for a basically very related question.

Question regarding Jump & Tiger Claw disciplines:

Let's look at "Claw at the moon" Maneuver.

Let's say I have "Leap of the Heavens" (+5 jump when running, DC is not doubled when making standing jumps).
And including all boni and mali, jump 7.
I also have the skill trick "Extreme Leap" (+10feet on horizontal jumps).

Now, many maneuvers, like claw at the moon, say I have to make a jump check with the DC of the targets AC.

Do I get *any* boni to that jump? Or is it simply my normal 7?

Even with maxed Jump ranks, and very high strength, it's kinda hard to reliably hit a DC of 20 @ level 4. Can't see what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks.

EDIT: also, I usually have the enlarge person buff on me (and am large then). Shouldn't it be easier to "jump" at the enemy when I'm bigger and have a 10ft. reach?

[Keld Denar]

Leap of the Heavens would only work if you were in Leaping Dragon Stance, as then all jumps would be treated as having a running start.

Extreme Leap wouldn't have any effect at Claw at the Moon, but would help you out with jumps made by Sudden Leap or similar horizontal movement manevuers.

Did you remember to add your +2 Synergy bonus for having 5+ ranks in Tumble? You also get a +4 bonus for every 10' of movement speed you have above 30.

[Torvon]

Thanks.

1Bar/2Fig/1Warblade, I'm wearing medium armor (-10 ft. penalty) at the moment to keep the barbarians +10ft. movement class ability.

Maybe I should even switch to light armor, just eat the -1 AC, redue the armor penalty to 0 and efficiently run around with 40ft movement, buffing my jump score by 4?
NOt sure if my DM would hand me a +1 chain shirt, that would effectively have the same AC as my breast plate without penalties.
(efficiently this would be +6 to jump; +4 from +10ft bonus, and another +2 from less armor penalty)

And yes, the +2 tumble are actually included on level 4.

It's 2(tumble)+6(jump rank, missing one here, i know)+4(STR)-3(masterwork breast plate).

Too bad neither the feat nor the skill trick work on most of the tiger claw attack maneuvers. I'll have to think of some additional ways too boost my jumping.

[Keld Denar]

PHB has rules for Masterwork Tools (100g). They give a +2 Competance bonus on skill checks. The rules are really vague as to what can and can't have a MW tool, and that is the topic of MUCH debate around here. You might be able to convince your DM that you have MW tights, or slippers, or and exercise book you practice from every day or SOMETHING that should give you the +2 bonus.

Short of that, Boots of Striding and Springing give a pretty sizable bonus given that they increase your speed AND your jump check. They aren't TOO costly, but probably out of your price range at level 4.

[Torvon]

Thanks Keld Denar, I'll save up GP for these. Another +9 on jump sounds nice :p

[Torvon]

Right. I want to thank you all for the help, I'm playing the character right now.

We started @ level 7, that's how he looks like:


Whispergnome, Level 7
4 levels Rogue, 3 levels Swordsage

INI +6, AC 20, flat-footed 20, touch 18; 41 HP
Fortitude +5, Reflex +14, Will +8

STR 6 (lol ...)
DEX 21
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 14
CHA 10

+13 attack 1hand shortsword; d4+5 damage
+11 attack when dual wielding shortswords; d4+5 damage each
+12 on hand crossbow

Important Skills:
+8 Balance
+8 Bluff
+7 Disguise (+17 including the bonus from hat of disguise)
+12 Escape Artist
+23 Hide (yay!)
+17 Jump
+12 Listen
+19 Move Silently (yay!)
+12 Open Lock
+10 Search
+11 Sense Motive
+11 Sleight of Hand
+11 Spot
+17 Tumble

Skill Trick: Extreme Leap

Feats: TWF, Weapon Finesse, Craven, Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style, Regional Feat (Luck of Heroes)
ACF: Penetrating Strike
Traits: Dishonest, Skinny, Suspicious
Flaw: Vulnerable
Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand

Maneuvers:
Sudden Leap, Distracting Ember, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Counter Charge, Cloak of Deception, SHadow Haunt, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Soaring Raptor Strike

Stances:
Island of Blades, Child of Shadow

Gear:
Hat of Disguise, Ring of 4 Winds, Cloak of Resistance, Boots of Agile Leaping

Current sneak attack damage:
2d6 + 7 ~ 14 damage per SA on average


(GM didn't allow 3 classes, so taking one level fighter for 2 ACF to boost SA wasn't possible)

ta-ta
Torvon

[Gnaeus]

Last question: is there any good and comprehensive list about sneak attacks -- what different ways and methods I can take and abuse to get a SA in? Would help me greatly, since I'M not so very familiar with 3.5e yet.
Especially the "enemy doesn't have DEX bonus to armor" thing sounds like there is a great many possibilties to achieve that.

Depending on stats and campaign, it is sometimes worth it to drop a single level of Assassin or Spellthief into a rogue build. Get a weapon with a Wand chamber in it, and get a wand of swift invisibility, blink, or greater invisibility (whichever you can afford). This only works well if 1. You are pretty sure that you can get the wands you need from shops or friendly casters and 2. the DM doesn't allow the tricks that will let you auto-succeed at UMD at relatively low levels (MW UMD item, custom crafted magic + UMD item).

Edit: That may not be possible if as you say the DM is only allowing 2 classes. If he is only allowing 2 BASE classes, Assassin as a 1 level PRC dip may still be worth it. If not, you are shooting yourself in the foot by not keeping UMD maxed. It is maybe the most important rogue skill.