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strider24seven
2010-04-02, 04:24 PM
So, after a TPK, the group DM offered us a deal: a new game with a very specific party. Since there were six of us, each player was assigned an ability (STR, DEX, etc.) and had to build a character around that ability. I was lucky and got Intelligence:smallcool:.

Some of the characters are new to DnD, and I'd like to offer them some constructive advice. I thought I'd throw this one to the Playgrounders and let them have fun with it.

Here's some important info:
-Gestalt from UA, starting at level 10, ending at TPK or boredom.
-Stats: 4 6 6 8 8 20 distributed how we please.
-Ability boosting items are disallowed. Ability boosting spells, e.g. Bull's Strength, are discouraged but still allowed for difficult fights. Class abilities like Rage are fine.
-None of the players can have the same "main" class or theme. Dips are fine, i.e. the STR and CON players can both dip 2 levels in Fighter, but both cannot be Fighter 10.
-All books except 3.0 and Dragon Magazine are fine. 3.0 and DM are case-by-case. Oriental Adventures is disallowed.
-DMM is strongly discouraged, but is fine if it is not abused.
-Races/Templates with LA/HD are allowed but fluff is usually needed. +1 LA is free, e.g. a Goliath has no LA. LA buyoff from level-ups in-game are allowed (i.e. you can't buyoff right away, but you can at the next available opportunity).

Here is what I've come up with so far (and yes, I have seen the X Stat to Y page):

Strength- The BA. Definately at least a dip in Barbarian. Probably going to be a charger/dragoon type of character. Or a grappler. Or a charging grappler:smalleek:. The player (a n00b) has expressed interest in the Black Blood Cultist with Improved Grab from something.

Dexterity- Obviously a mobility character. Definately an Elf for Champion of Corellon. The character is going to end up a shadowpouncing monstrosity of some sorts, as the player loves Telflammar Shadowlords and has expressed interest in Battle Jump.

Constitution- The tank. Definately a Dwarf for Deepwarden & Fist of the Forest. Probably going to be a Bear Warrior for stupid high CON.

Intelligence- That's me! The Mastermind. Definately a Factotum on one side, with Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Keen Intellect. Probably a Psion on the other side for Control Body shenanigans. Possibly a Swashbuckler/Illithid Slayer for good measure.

Wisdom- The voice of reason, another newbie, probably going to end up a Tashalatora build of some kind. Definately at least a Swordsage dip. Possibly CoDzilla.

Charisma- Thankfully the face is a veteran player who wants to go Wilder//Diphappy. Not going to be a ghost, so he's not going to totally
outshine the rest of us.

Ideas for all six are very welcome and will be appreciated. Shenanigans and Tomfoolery are allowed, but the idea is not to have one character completely outshine the others or suck completely. Builds through level 20 are extremely welcome. Tactics are even better. And yes, the other five players are all going to be roleplaying characters with less than 8 Intelligence...

[Evil laughter ensues]
:smallbiggrin:

P.S. A cookie and half an internet to anyone who gets the A team references. An extra cookie if you find all three.

Draz74
2010-04-02, 04:33 PM
Hmmm. If I were making a party with these rules ...

STR: Tough one. Maybe a Warblade//dip-happy grappler?

DEX: Definitely some Swordsage. Actually the shadowpouncing Champion of Corellon sounds like a pretty sweet combo.

CON: Dragonfire Adept//Totemist!

INT: Yeah, Factotum//Psion with FMI, like you're planning. I personally wouldn't bother trying to be good at melee, but if you're wanting to, I'd actually dip Warblade rather than Swashbuckler.

WIS: Psychic Warrior//Swordsage with Intuitive Attack. Or maybe Ardent/Fighter//Swordsage.

CHA: Wilder//dip-happy sounds good.

strider24seven
2010-04-02, 04:38 PM
DEX: Definitely some Swordsage. Actually the shadowpouncing Champion of Corellon sounds like a pretty sweet combo.


Yeah, he got the idea at the BG fora. With Battle Jump, it is godly. Can you say >6 full attacks every other round? He wanted to take Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt, but he could only do it 1/day, with the stupidity and all.

And I totally forgot about DA for the CON guy. And intuitive attack for WIS.

Response appreciated.

absolmorph
2010-04-02, 04:59 PM
Cleric, druid and Psychic Warrior all work well for Wisdom.

Hulking Hurler for Strength. DO IT. You know you want to. If he has any disagreements, tell him that he'll be able to throw enemies into each other, hitting their weak points for MASSIVE DAMAGE!
Basically, get Fighter 6 (Dungeoncrasher variant), Hulking Hurler, Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw (your ranged attacks are treated as melee attacks), War Hulk (MORE STRENGTH), and take Power Attack, Knockback and Shock Trooper. Oh, and Brutal Throw and Master Thrower, for more throwing-goodness.

Ranger 3/Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2 will get you Con to AC. Twice. Steadfast Determination (PHBII) allows you to get Con to Will saves (instead of Wis) and Kensai 5 lets you make Concentration checks for Reflex saves.

Use X to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) for more ideas.

the_archduke
2010-04-02, 05:59 PM
A one level dip into monk + kung fu genius gives you into to AC.
Normally that would hurt your manifesting too much, but in gestalt it rocks

edit: And obviously the dip works great for the Wis character, and the Cha character can get it too with a Monk dip + Ascetic Mage Feat

The Dark Fiddler
2010-04-02, 06:04 PM
Druid would be very good for the Wisdom player, so you can just Wildshape away the weaksauce physicals.

Eldariel
2010-04-02, 06:11 PM
The issue with all but Dragonfire Adept (err, the Con-one) is gonna be the whole "you don't have HP"-part. Int can get by with Faerie Mysteries Initiate, but the rest pretty much have to go undead to have any HP at all (though then, with the crafting stuff, they can have some very nice HP).


Either way, I think there's a bunch of really clear ones:
- Str: Crusader, Barbarian or Warblade. Str SAD Crusader can fare just fine between self-healing, Delayed Damage Pool, Stone Power & D10 HD, while Barbarian helps the Con out a bit and Warblade...well, Warblade is still D12. I'd probably go Crusader here; seems least gimped (though they're all pretty bad; I'd probably just dip 2 levels of Barbarian for Improved Trip, Rage (NOT Whirling Frenzy) and Pounce or something). Should prolly be Feral.

- Dex: Ok, this guy needs to not-be-detected. Otherwise he's dead as ever. All classes with solid Dex synergy tend to be low HP so gestalting with a d12 HD could be useful, but the emphasis needs to be on Darkstalker+obscene Hide. Dark-template.

- Con: Yeah, this one is way too obvious. Mite even want Mineral Warrior. Next.

- Int: Infinite options with FMI; Wizard/Psion/Artificer/Archivist all work perfectly well here with Factotum on the other side as a default. These can even work without FMI with some levels as their defensive powers are such that they can just avoid hits entirely, and Psion could just Vigor/Share Pain infi HP too. Phrenic template seems about right.

- Wis: Cleric, Druid or Ardent. Other side, suit to taste. If SS is already taken, Monk is somewhat alright as a substitute. I wouldn't bother with Psy War/Swordsage as there's an awful lot of redundancy there. If interested in frontlining (such as usual with Druid or Cleric), Corpsecrafted/etc. Necropolitan is a solid alternative.

- Cha: Yeah. Well, Ghost would of course be better as would anything with Unholy Toughness, but yeah. Multilevelstack on the other side (Pally/Arcane Duelist/Hexblade/whatever) with Cha-caster on the other is obvious (Sorc/Wilder/Warmage+Rainbow Rainbow Servant/Bard/whatever).

strider24seven
2010-04-02, 09:17 PM
Good call on Crusader. That's definately the Strength player's class now. He's pretty much married to the Black Blood Cultist grappler idea though. Can he have it both ways? Can you use a maneuver in a grapple (I'm AFB right now)?

DEX character is considering a Jaunter/Telflammar Shadowlord build (I LOVE those) with Champion of Corellon in. Darkstalker+Dark Template (courtesy of Eldariel)+Craven. Sneak Attack is from Swordsage's Assassin Stance. With an absurd 6 Full attacks +6 extra attacks from Shadowpounce+Battle Jump+Sun School+Snap Kick. If only he could throw on Power Attack+Shocktrooper....:smalleek:

I totally forgot about Steadfast Determination. Every time I see that feat, though, I want to build a Frenzied Berzerker/Bear Warrior. A frenzied BEARzerker, you might say. But I could bearly bear that bulid. Just thought that bears mentioning...:smallbiggrin:

The WIS character is shying away from CoDzilla at the moment, in favor of a Tashalatora War Mind/Monk. I'm trying to convince him of at least a Wildshape Ranger. Master of Many Forms maybe?

A dip in monk+carmendine monk is good for me. Maybe on the Factotum side so it doesn't screw my ML? A preliminary build:

Factotum 1-8/Monk 1/Factotum 9-19//Psion 1-5/Slayer 1-2/Anarchic Initiate 1-4/Slayer 3-10/Psion 6

Decent BAB, HD, and Saves. Versatility out the wazoo. Perhaps fewer levels in Slayer and a 2 level dip in Chameleon for a floating feat? I just wish I could fit in Warblade and "Carmendine" Swordsage.

Much appreciated everyone. This is looking to be a wicked game so far.

shadow_archmagi
2010-04-02, 09:21 PM
Oh god.

So, one of you has high INT, one of you was high WIS, one of you has high CHA, but otherwise you all have abysmal mental scores?

That sounds HILARIOUS to watch.

Eldariel
2010-04-02, 09:24 PM
Good call on Crusader. That's definately the Strength player's class now. He's pretty much married to the Black Blood Cultist grappler idea though. Can he have it both ways? Can you use a maneuver in a grapple (I'm AFB right now)?

Well, yes and no. The book doesn't really spell it out except that "some maneuvers are useless in grapple" so it should be a fair game. Worth noting that Crushing Weight of the Mountain is a v. good stance for Grappling, and Pouncing Charge makes for much more effective turn 1s of Grappling.


DEX character is considering a Jaunter/Teflammar Shadowlord build (I LOVE those) with Champion of Corellon in. Darkstalker+Dark Template (courtesy of Eldariel)+Craven. Sneak Attack is from Swordsage's Assassin Stance. With an absurd 6 Full attacks +6 extra attacks from Shadowpounce+Battle Jump+Sun School+Snap Kick. If only he could throw on Power Attack+Shocktrooper....:smalleek:

Monk could get him Power Attack & Improved Bull Rush. Shock Trooper doesn't have Str-prerequisites and neither does Leap Attack. So he's good with a 2-level Monk-dip using Overwhelming Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack) Monk. Also, Swordsage gets Shadow Blink + Shadow Stride + Shadow Jaunt for 3xDD per turn. Have fun with Telflammar Shadowlord.


The WIS character is shying away from CoDzilla at the moment, in favor of a Tashalatora War Mind/Monk. I'm trying to convince him of at least a Wildshape Ranger. Master of Many Forms maybe?

Cute. Did someone tell him his Wisdom is totally useless to him this way? Even Moon-Warded Ranger (it's from Dragon Magazine; you can find it in Crystalkeep Index) MoMF with Monk-dip would be pretty weak though he'd at least have AC. Find a way to get him some damn HP. Well, Tashalatora isn't bad; get him to Tashalatora with Ardent or Psychic Warrior and we're talking. Psionics can get him out of his HP jam. Hell, the other side could be wildshaping; who's to say Psy War/Monk//Ranger/MoMF isn't awesome?


A dip in monk+carmendine monk is good for me. Maybe on the Factotum side so it doesn't screw my ML? A preliminary build:

Factotum 1-8/Monk 1/Factotum 9-19//Psion 1-5/Slayer 1-2/Anarchic Initiate 1-4/Slayer 3-10/Psion 6

Decent BAB, HD, and Saves. Versatility out the wazoo. Perhaps fewer levels in Slayer and a 2 level dip in Chameleon for a floating feat? I just wish I could fit in Warblade and "Carmendine" Swordsage.

Much appreciated everyone. This is looking to be a wicked game so far.

Seems fine.

strider24seven
2010-04-03, 07:56 AM
Well, yes and no. The book doesn't really spell it out except that "some maneuvers are useless in grapple" so it should be a fair game. Worth noting that Crushing Weight of the Mountain is a v. good stance for Grappling, and Pouncing Charge makes for much more effective turn 1s of Grappling.

Nice. Pouncing charge hadn't even crossed my mind. I'm more of a Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind person, myself.



Monk could get him Power Attack & Improved Bull Rush. Shock Trooper doesn't have Str-prerequisites and neither does Leap Attack. So he's good with a 2-level Monk-dip using Overwhelming Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack) Monk. Also, Swordsage gets Shadow Blink + Shadow Stride + Shadow Jaunt for 3xDD per turn. Have fun with Telflammar Shadowlord.

Extra niceness. Maybe he can wield a spiked chain, since its finessable, is a shadow hand weapon, and has reach, and can trip. Too bad it's not a Champion of Corellon weapon too. Is there a way to modify it to act like an elven greatblade (the one that's finessable but has full PA damage)?



Cute. Did someone tell him his Wisdom is totally useless to him this way? Even Moon-Warded Ranger (it's from Dragon Magazine; you can find it in Crystalkeep Index) MoMF with Monk-dip would be pretty weak though he'd at least have AC. Find a way to get him some damn HP. Well, Tashalatora isn't bad; get him to Tashalatora with Ardent or Psychic Warrior and we're talking. Psionics can get him out of his HP jam. Hell, the other side could be wildshaping; who's to say Psy War/Monk//Ranger/MoMF isn't awesome?

If he goes Tashalatora, Psionic Body could nab him some extra HP's. Now that I think about it, if I go Factotum/Psion, it could grab me some extra HP's too...

Amphetryon
2010-04-03, 08:36 AM
STR-monkey should strongly consider using Mongrelfolk as the race, just so he has some HP from the get-go. It means he forgoes battle control in favor of charge-o-rama, but that's inevitable with those stats anyway.

I like Dwarf for the DEXophile for similar reasons.

Volkov
2010-04-03, 08:36 AM
So, after a TPK, the group DM offered us a deal: a new game with a very specific party. Since there were six of us, each player was assigned an ability (STR, DEX, etc.) and had to build a character around that ability. I was lucky and got Intelligence:smallcool:.

Some of the characters are new to DnD, and I'd like to offer them some constructive advice. I thought I'd throw this one to the Playgrounders and let them have fun with it.

Here's some important info:
-Gestalt from UA, starting at level 10, ending at TPK or boredom.
-Stats: 4 6 6 8 8 20 distributed how we please.
-Ability boosting items are disallowed. Ability boosting spells, e.g. Bull's Strength, are discouraged but still allowed for difficult fights. Class abilities like Rage are fine.
-None of the players can have the same "main" class or theme. Dips are fine, i.e. the STR and CON players can both dip 2 levels in Fighter, but both cannot be Fighter 10.
-All books except 3.0 and Dragon Magazine are fine. 3.0 and DM are case-by-case. Oriental Adventures is disallowed.
-DMM is strongly discouraged, but is fine if it is not abused.
-Races/Templates with LA/HD are allowed but fluff is usually needed. +1 LA is free, e.g. a Goliath has no LA. LA buyoff from level-ups in-game are allowed (i.e. you can't buyoff right away, but you can at the next available opportunity).

Here is what I've come up with so far (and yes, I have seen the X Stat to Y page):

Strength- The BA. Definately at least a dip in Barbarian. Probably going to be a charger/dragoon type of character. Or a grappler. Or a charging grappler:smalleek:. The player (a n00b) has expressed interest in the Black Blood Cultist with Improved Grab from something.

Dexterity- Obviously a mobility character. Definately an Elf for Champion of Corellon. The character is going to end up a shadowpouncing monstrosity of some sorts, as the player loves Teflammar Shadowlords and has expressed interest in Battle Jump.

Constitution- The tank. Definately a Dwarf for Deepwarden & Fist of the Forest. Probably going to be a Bear Warrior for stupid high CON.

Intelligence- That's me! The Mastermind. Definately a Factotum on one side, with Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Keen Intellect. Probably a Psion on the other side for Control Body shenanigans. Possibly a Swashbuckler/Illithid Slayer for good measure.

Wisdom- The voice of reason, another newbie, probably going to end up a Tashalatora build of some kind. Definately at least a Swordsage dip. Possibly CoDzilla.

Charisma- Thankfully the face is a veteran player who wants to go Wilder//Diphappy. Not going to be a ghost, so he's not going to totally
outshine the rest of us.

Ideas for all six are very welcome and will be appreciated. Shenanigans and Tomfoolery are allowed, but the idea is not to have one character completely outshine the others or suck completely. Builds through level 20 are extremely welcome. Tactics are even better. And yes, the other five players are all going to be roleplaying characters with less than 8 Intelligence...

[Evil laughter ensues]
:smallbiggrin:

P.S. A cookie and half an internet to anyone who gets the A team references. An extra cookie if you find all three.

My god.....NUKE IT FROM ORBIT!!!! It's the only way to be sure!

alisbin
2010-04-03, 08:44 AM
not much to add, but the con player might seriously consider taking the spellfire wielder feat and a dip into the PrC. gives him/her some ranged damage, minor healing (at least enough to stabilize someone if neccesary) AND the ability to tank against some spells which isn't bad for 1 feat and a few levels (especially with gestalt).

Eldariel
2010-04-03, 08:44 AM
STR-monkey should strongly consider using Mongrelfolk as the race, just so he has some HP from the get-go. It means he forgoes battle control in favor of charge-o-rama, but that's inevitable with those stats anyway.

I probably prefer Warforged just for the bucketload of immunities it brings along. However, failing that, small Warblade-dip on the other side for Diamond Mind saves is a no-brainer. Sure, your Concentration isn't what it could be, but it's still better than what you'd work with otherwise. Now that I think about it, Mineral Warrior would be nice there too. DR 8/Adamantine goes great with Stone Power & Delayed Damage pool in ensuring you don't take much damage.

Runestar
2010-04-03, 08:58 AM
One interesting option for the str-monkey might be to use the berserker strength variant fron PHB2. It grants rage when your hp falls to below 5xbarb lv. With negative con, this is almost all the time, effectively giving you perma-rage.

Then at 5th lv, go necropolitan for the immunities so your poor stats are no longer a liability.

magic9mushroom
2010-04-03, 09:03 AM
Str: Hulking Hurler. Season to taste.

Dex: Swordsage seems useful here, but I'm not precisely sure what to do. You could probably make a decent sniper with SA on one side and Swordsage on the other... Not sure.

Con: Yeah, Dragonfire Adept. Not sure what the other side would be, though - Spellfire Channeler could conceivably come in handy.

Int: Factotum is obvious. The rest, well, my inner cheesegolem cries out "Spell to Power Erudite!", but given DMM's discouraged I'm imagining StPE would be nuked from orbit. So probably Psion, possibly with a level of Monk (using Kung Fu Genius, Tashalatora and Faerie Mysteries Initiate).

Wis: Druidzilla, all the way. Unsure what to pair it with, though... possibly Ardent.

Cha: Well, again, my inner cheesegolem cries "Phaerimm!". That aside, Cha caster//diphappy sounds pretty good.

strider24seven
2010-04-03, 09:56 AM
Spellfire Channeler is actually a good idea!
[Frantically searches for Faerun books...]

Warforged isn't bad for the Strength-monger, if only for the pseudo-crit immunities+adamantine body. Mineral Warrior would work for either STR or CON. Which would be better?


Cha: Well, again, my inner cheesegolem cries "Phaerimm!". That aside, Cha caster//diphappy sounds pretty good.

Can I buy a half-cheese golem graft from you?

Eldariel
2010-04-03, 10:18 AM
Well, if you can only give Mineral Warrior to one guy, the Str-guy needs it more. If anything, make the Str-guy Feral Mineral Warrior. That way, he'll at least have some hardiness. Fast Healing and DR compound his survivability a great deal. Interestingly, you'd want a +2 Int race (Sharakim [RoD]?) to avoid falling into Animal Intellect with all the mental penalties (which causes problems already).

Feral + Mineral is +6 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -6 Int, -2 Cha (Wis-bonus and penalty cancel out). So there are no other worries except for Int. Int under 3 is bad for you. So...yeah. The Con-guy can just be Dragonborn Mongrelfolk or something for massive Con.

Eloel
2010-04-03, 10:27 AM
Cha guy could go Sorcerer 10, with Gravetouched Ghoul/Evolved Undead on the other side, probably with 2 level dip into some variant Paladin at some point. Unleash the fury with the +2 Cha every level. And yes, as a bonus, if they're somehow stuck in an AMF, they can just whip out a club and bash some heads with the +2 Str/level.

(Heck, the Str guy could go Hulking Hurler//Evolved Undead, for WTF? amounts of Str)

Draz74
2010-04-03, 10:35 AM
who's to say Psy War/Monk//Ranger/MoMF isn't awesome?

That actually sounds really fun.


If he goes Tashalatora, Psionic Body could nab him some extra HP's. Now that I think about it, if I go Factotum/Psion, it could grab me some extra HP's too...

Ugh. Psionic Body is a terrible feat; I can't see how anyone ever takes it.

The number of Psionic feats (note: this doesn't include Metapsionic feats, or several other popular choices for psionic characters) you have to take to make Psionic Body better than Improved Toughness is ... prohibitive. Even on a pure Psychic Warrior, with all those bonus feats, I've never seen a situation where it was worth it. Except a high-level Core Only game.

No, the way psionics can save you (and especially the WISophile) from crappy HP is via the Vigor power. Possibly with some Psicrystal/Share Pain goodness.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-03, 10:41 AM
Why is everyone suggesting Psion for INT instead of Wizard? Because it gestalts better w/ factotum somehow?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-03, 10:49 AM
Why is everyone suggesting Psion for INT instead of Wizard? Because it gestalts better w/ factotum somehow?
More (or easier) ways to break action economy?

AmberVael
2010-04-03, 10:50 AM
Why is everyone suggesting Psion for INT instead of Wizard? Because it gestalts better w/ factotum somehow?

Psion just has a bunch of nice little benefits, and also is a little more fair. =P

Part of it is that Psionics don't have to bother with Spell Failure, part of it may be that they can have fun with action economy much more simply (Schism, quicken power, Temporal Acceleration), and some of it is for simplicity. Psionics are a bit more streamlined than Spells, and you don't have to bother with all that spellbook nonsense.

Wizard might theoretically be more powerful, but psion is just... neater, I'd say.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-03, 10:57 AM
I also think Psion is funner than Wizard, but fun is subjective.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-03, 11:48 AM
Let's see... one of the big problems with this for most of the builds will be HP.

LA on both sides, or one side only? Makes a very large difference.

For the three mental stat types, I'd suggest Elans, with a psionic class based on that stat - Wilder for Charisma (Expanded Psionic Handbook), Erudite for Intelligence (Complete Psionic), Ardent for Wisdom (Complete Psionic). Then take Enhanced Elan Resilience (Complete Psionic, page 52), Psionic Body, and as many psionic feats as you can fit in (possibly simply Psionic Talent over & over again). Faerie Mysteries Initiate for the Int-based character, of course. Alternately, the Charisma-based character can go Sorcerer+PrC's, get the Dragonblooded subtype, and take Wings of Cover (Races of the Dragon) - keeps the entire party away from the worst attacks.

If LA is one-side only, then stack templates - for the Str/Dex people, you want Con (although the Dex-based character can get away with a stealth build). Charisma is one of the easier ones - it doesn't do much, of itself, so it's used by a lot of PrC's and classes to do other stuff - which is really good for the Charisma-based player.

If LA is not one-side-only, then dip lots of classes that make good use of that ability, or cover for not having a given ability. Warblade gets Diamond Mind manuevers... and Diamond Mind has counters that let you use a Concentration checks in place of saves. Concentration, being a skill, is much easier to boost than other things - making it VERY handy for anyone who'll need to make a save.


Ugh. Psionic Body is a terrible feat; I can't see how anyone ever takes it.

Any psionic character can take Psionic Body at 1st. Improved Toughness has stiffer requirements (and the two stack). Psionic body is handy for the low-Con types that get bonus Psionic feats... like the Psion, or even better, the Psychic Warrior.



The number of Psionic feats (note: this doesn't include Metapsionic feats, or several other popular choices for psionic characters) you have to take to make Psionic Body better than Improved Toughness is ... prohibitive. Even on a pure Psychic Warrior, with all those bonus feats, I've never seen a situation where it was worth it. Except a high-level Core Only game.

No, the way psionics can save you (and especially the WISophile) from crappy HP is via the Vigor power. Possibly with some Psicrystal/Share Pain goodness.
Vigor will help, yes, but it's the Elan, with Enhanced Elan Resilience (Complete Psionic) that'll really help.

magic9mushroom
2010-04-03, 12:50 PM
Can I buy a half-cheese golem graft from you?

Spend too long on here and you'll get the Half-Cheese Golem template for free. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-04-03, 12:59 PM
No, the way psionics can save you (and especially the WISophile) from crappy HP is via the Vigor power. Possibly with some Psicrystal/Share Pain goodness.

Hear the man. This is how Psionics gets you HP. Lots of it. And it's Hours/Level to boot! Sure, you're still very mortal, but you're at least as durable as normal characters, quite possibly more so, which is really all you can ask for without a Con-score.

Dr Bwaa
2010-04-03, 01:44 PM
For the Cha-based guy--go Druid//Sorcerer ++ Arcane Heirophant with Fey Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/3CsX278ZDGQQ62al3RP.html). :smallbiggrin:

strider24seven
2010-04-03, 05:25 PM
Why is everyone suggesting Psion for INT instead of Wizard? Because it gestalts better w/ factotum somehow?

1) Control Body+Solict Psicrystal= INT to attack, damage, and AC instead of strength and dexterity, and (subjectively) partial immunity to a lot of daze-type effects

2) More flexibility. Psion gets a lot more use out of 1st level powers than a Wizard does with 1st level spells. 5d4+5 Magic Missile vs. 20d10 Mind Thrust. A poor example, as the Psion can only do that a few times per day, but it is an example nonetheless.

3) Wizard is just... vanilla. Vanilla flavored cheese.

LA is on one side of gestalt. If we have HD and LA, they go on both sides, e.g. A thri-keen looks like RHD 2/Fighter 8//LA 2/Swordsage 8. DM's example, not mine.

Elans are awesome. The ability to soak damage with PP is fantastic, especially at low levels.

Arcane Heirophant is a dual-progression PrC, is it not?

Oh, and as for Psionic Body: [Facepalm:smallfurious:] Forgot about Improved Toughness. And Vigor+Share Pain shenanigans.

So far, in case anyone cares, the builds look like:

STR: Mineral Warrior Half-Giant
LA 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6//Crusader 5/Warblade 5
With Kockback, Shock Trooper, Pounce, and Dungeoncrasher, a brutal charger/controller. Possibly to go Frenzied Berzerker if we can find a way for him to not fail his Will Save. Edit: Fixed the Fighter level.

DEX: Dark Drow Elf
LA 3/Crusader 2/Warblade 2/Swordsage 3//Hit and Run Fighter 2/Monk 2/Jaunter 1/Champion of Corellon 2/Telflammar Shadowlord 3
Next level he gets Shadowpounce and becomes stupidly powerful. Has Darkstalker, Craven, and Battle Jump. The DM let him use monk to get combat expertise for CoC. I can't wait to read his fluff.

CON: Dragonborn Arctic Dwarf
LA 2/Warblade 6/Crusader 2//Ranger 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Bear Warrior 1/Frostrager 2
Possbly to take Poison Healer and Drunken Master to become fueled by ale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6404306&postcount=47). But that would necesitate levels in Monk:smallyuk:. But the fluff is pretty awesome now.

INT: Elan
Factotum 9/Carmendine Monk 1//Psion 5/Anarchic Initiate 4/Slayer 1
I hate to take only the dead Slayer level to start with, but I have to take it sometime. Will finish out Slayer and Factotum. I really want to go Phrenic Human, but then I lose the Elan's awesomesauce. And I'm the only one with no LA.

WIS: Elan (a template would be nice)
Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 8//Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 5
Tried to talk him into Ardent//Druid, but he's adamant about having (mostly) full BAB. Will probably take Warshaper after he's finished MoMF.

CHA: Phrenic Human
LA 2/Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Marshal 2//Wilder 10
Is considering taking either Thrallherd+Elocater on the Wilder Side for extra powers known or PrC diphappiness on the other side. The DM lets the whole "Phrenic on a non-psionic character" thing go for a first level psionic class only, i.e. this is fine, but a Phrenic Elan is not.

Just for reference, the DM doesn't enforce multiclassing penalties becuase its too much of a hassle in gestalt, but we try to follow it just the same.

jindra34
2010-04-03, 05:29 PM
CON: Dragonborn Arctic Dwarf
LA 2/Warblade 6/Crusader 2//Ranger 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Bear Warrior 1/Frostrager 2
Possbly to take Poison Healer and Drunken Master to become fueled by ale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6404306&postcount=47). But that would necesitate levels in Monk:smallyuk:. But the fluff is pretty awesome now.

No DFA in the CON guy? Thats sad, as it is a SAD class that relies on CON>

Dacia Brabant
2010-04-03, 11:37 PM
STR: Mineral Warrior Half-Giant
LA 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 8//Crusader 5/Warblade 5
With Kockback, Shock Trooper, Pounce, and Dungeoncrasher, a brutal charger/controller. Possibly to go Frenzied Berzerker if we can find a way for him to not fail his Will Save.

I was about to ask why the 8th (and 7th) Fighter level, but I noticed it doesn't add up with the LA and Lion Totem Barb so you must've meant Dungeoncrasher 6, which is entirely reasonable. Nevermind. :smallsmile:

But odd levels in initiator classes is suboptimal. Crusader 8/Warblade 2 or vice-versa is probably the best distribution. If he can use the Diamond Mind counter that replaces a Will save with a Concentration check while frenzying, then he should be okay for FB. Forgot you can't do that, so I'm not really sure here. Maybe make sure one of your psionic characters has Time Hop as a power known?


DEX: Dark Drow Elf
LA 3/Crusader 2/Warblade 2/Swordsage 3//Hit and Run Fighter 2/Monk 2/Jaunter 1/Champion of Corellon 2/Telflammar Shadowlord 3
Next level he gets Shadowpounce and becomes stupidly powerful. Has Darkstalker, Craven, and Battle Jump. The DM let him use monk to get combat expertise for CoC. I can't wait to read his fluff.

No real complaints here, though too bad he couldn't start with Shadow Pounce. The fluff's gotta be pretty schisophrenic though--doesn't Telflammar Shadowlord require Mask to be your patron deity?


CON: Dragonborn Arctic Dwarf
LA 2/Warblade 6/Crusader 2//Ranger 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Bear Warrior 1/Frostrager 2
Possbly to take Poison Healer and Drunken Master to become fueled by ale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6404306&postcount=47). But that would necesitate levels in Monk:smallyuk:. But the fluff is pretty awesome now.

No DFA, interesting. I might consider dropping the Crusader levels for more Warblade to be able to grab maneuvers like Insightful Strike or Ruby Nightmare Blade, to take advantage of that crazy-high Con. He's not always going to be able to charge/full attack after all.


INT: Elan
Factotum 9/Carmendine Monk 1//Psion 5/Anarchic Initiate 4/Slayer 1
I hate to take only the dead Slayer level to start with, but I have to take it sometime. Will finish out Slayer and Factotum. I really want to go Phrenic Human, but then I lose the Elan's awesomesauce. And I'm the only one with no LA.

Best build of the bunch IMO, no complaints. What discipline are you going with for Psion though? I'd suggest Egoist for easy Metamorphosis abuse, but Kineticist wouldn't be out of bounds either. Too bad you won't have the Wis for Psionic Meditation though.


WIS: Elan (a template would be nice)
Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 8//Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 5
Tried to talk him into Ardent//Druid, but he's adamant about having (mostly) full BAB. Will probably take Warshaper after he's finished MoMF.

Eh maybe I'm missing something but if he's going that route, why not Kalashtar so he can go for Tashalatora?


CHA: Phrenic Human
LA 2/Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Marshal 2//Wilder 10
Is considering taking either Thrallherd+Elocater on the Wilder Side for extra powers known or PrC diphappiness on the other side. The DM lets the whole "Phrenic on a non-psionic character" thing go for a first level psionic class only, i.e. this is fine, but a Phrenic Elan is not.


For extra powers known the best option for Wilders is always the Educated Wilder variant from The Mind's Eye web enhancement: trade Volatile Mind (meh) for Expanded Knowledge (awesome). Thrallherd is a great PrC though and with Mindlink available through one of those Expanded Knowledges he should qualify fairly easily.

And, well, Thrallherd is perfect for a Ghost. Malevolence himself into his thralls! Even better, thralls are always replaced if they get killed so that's a lot of extra lives. Combine it with Cha to saves like he's already done and it's perfect.

Urgh, almost forgot that Inquisitor requires a 13 Wis. Best way I can think of around that is Phrenic Lesser Aasimar, which are Humanoid (Extraplanar) rather than Outsider so Ghost is still an option.

That's my 2p anyway. It's an interesting thought experiment at least, and hopefully your group will have fun with it.

Eloel
2010-04-03, 11:39 PM
Anarchic Initiate is 2 levels long. You leave it before you get Enervation.

strider24seven
2010-04-04, 12:38 PM
Anarchic Initiate is 2 levels long. You leave it before you get Enervation.

[Facepalms again] Doh! Forgot about Enervation. That's what you get when you spend too long optimizing non-gestalt for BAB.

And yeah, that was supposed to be Dungeoncrasher 6. Woops. And good call on the Crusader 2/Warblade 8. Now he gets improved uncanny dodge. Woohoo [w/some sarcasm].

And as for the DEX character, Shadowlord only requires that you be from Thesk and be accepted by the Shadowlords (who happen to worship Mask), so it's not necessary to worship Mask, but it certainly doesn't hurt. The DM let him take 2 ranks in Knowledge (local, Taer) for Battle Jump, so no fluff stupidity there.

I was pretty disappointed that the CON guy didn't take DFA. His entangling blast would be pretty awesome (among other things, of course). Entangle the enemy so it can be raped by the STR guy. Whose name is Tordek (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tordek).

I'm waffling right now between Egoist and Nomad right now. I love teleport-based characters, but I also love Metamorphosis shenanigans (Firbolg+12-headed Cryohydras unite!). Because we already have a teleport-monkey, I will probably go Egoist, but my inner Nightcrawler is calling.

The WIS guy is now going Kalashtar. Thanks, Scylfing.

The CHA guy used to be dead-set against being a ghost, although a Thrallherd possessing his own thralls was awesome enough to convince him otherwise. I love Educated Wilder myself, and am currently pushing him towards it. He's never played a Wilder before, and doesn't understand how much Volitile Mind sucks compared to EK. And he's now a Phrenic Lesser Aasimar. Cudos again, Scylfing.

2xMachina
2010-04-04, 01:17 PM
Str

I'm not sure, but I think Goliath + Half Minotaur would be better. You have tons of Str and counts as Huge.

AI... you don't get Wild Surge before 3. Enervation only works with Wild Surge. Nothing lost there. It's an extra option.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-04, 01:18 PM
CON:

Dragonborn (Mind) Dwarf
Stat Mods: Con +4, Dex -2, Cha -2
Humanoid (Human, Dragonblood)
Stats: Str: 4, Dex 6, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 6, Cha 6
After Mods: Str 4, Dex 4, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 6, Cha 4
Level Adjustment: Con +2
Final: Str 4, Dex 4, Con 26, Int 8, Wis 6, Cha 4
Item Buff: Con +4 (enhancement)
Final w/item: Str 4, Dex 4, Con 30, Int 8, Wis 6, Cha 4

Total LA: +0.

Getting in deepwarden is hard, but Fist of the Forest isn't.
I'd recommend stoneblessed on one side (yes, stoneblessed dwarf, go for gnome or something, the +2 con will help), then Fist of the Forest, and flavor to taste.

On the other? Why not Dragon shaman?

Breath weapon with a 1d4 round cooldown, DC based on con. Qualify for metabreath feats, get heighten breath and clinging breath/etc, and you've got an intro that'll be hard to save against (Reflex DC 37 at level 10). It'll pretty much be once a fight, but with +110 or so HP from con, you should be sitting in the 150-200 hp range, with a passable AC.

Eloel
2010-04-04, 01:35 PM
The CON guy can go Dragonborn Mongrelfolk into Stoneblessed, for extra extra CON.

Godskook
2010-04-04, 02:01 PM
I'm going to continue the breath weapon comments for the Con guy, and recommend:

Dragonborn Mongrelfolk DFA 20//Dragon Shaman 20.

Feats: Several Metabreath feats. With 2 breaths that are explicitly measured in rounds, it doesn't matter what your DM's rules are on DFA's breath weapon, cause you still have 2 rounds of meta-nukes before you're 'stuck' with your DFA's customizable one.

With Heighten breath alone, you're looking at save DCs of 31 on your first two breaths, before any other forms of DC boosters. Considering the other boosters, you could probably get it to 40 or 50 before L20. Quickened breath gives you the ability to launch both in the same round.

Actually, the biggest concern such a character would have is identifying priority targets to nuke.

Be non-good to gain access to the breath of Taimat, and if your DM allows it, get into the Heir of Syberis(setting specific, but among the few decent DFA usable prestige classes). The Syberis route will grant you +2d6 on breath weapons, or +10d6 on the breath of Taimat(for a total of 55d6, by the way).

For anyone wanting to specialize in rolling d6s, this among the better ways to go.

Dacia Brabant
2010-04-04, 03:48 PM
I'm waffling right now between Egoist and Nomad right now. I love teleport-based characters, but I also love Metamorphosis shenanigans (Firbolg+12-headed Cryohydras unite!). Because we already have a teleport-monkey, I will probably go Egoist, but my inner Nightcrawler is calling.

I understand, but Nomad is really at its best if you're expecting to face a lot of extraplanar enemies (Dismissal, Banishment, Dimensional Anchor) or planning on doing extensive interplanar travel. Everything else is on the general Psion/Wilder list. Plus there's always power stones.

Oh and that reminds me, a big thing for you guys to remember since you have a number of psionic characters is that you can manifest powers off of a willing psionic character's powers known, like you would a power stone. People often overlook that, but it's very handy especially for the party Wilder.


The CHA guy used to be dead-set against being a ghost, although a Thrallherd possessing his own thralls was awesome enough to convince him otherwise. I love Educated Wilder myself, and am currently pushing him towards it. He's never played a Wilder before, and doesn't understand how much Volitile Mind sucks compared to EK. And he's now a Phrenic Lesser Aasimar. Cudos again, Scylfing.

Hah, awesome, I think I'm going to make a character like that as well next time I see a mid-high level gestalt game.

And yeah, the only time Volatile Mind is worth anything is if you're in an all-psionic game and expecting to fight Telepaths. And even then it outlives its usefulness as soon as you're able to learn Personal Mind Blank. More powers known = more power, simple as that.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-04, 04:35 PM
The CON guy can go Dragonborn Mongrelfolk into Stoneblessed, for extra extra CON.

Mongrelfolk has a hidden penalty.

Int -2.

Doesn't seem too bad, until you slap it on top of an 8 or lower, and then start trying to qualify for any sort of PrC with skill points.

Such as Stoneblessed...Fist of the Forest...Deepwarden...

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-04, 06:42 PM
I'm going to continue the breath weapon comments for the Con guy, and recommend:

Dragonborn Mongrelfolk DFA 20//Dragon Shaman 20.

Feats: Several Metabreath feats. With 2 breaths that are explicitly measured in rounds, it doesn't matter what your DM's rules are on DFA's breath weapon, cause you still have 2 rounds of meta-nukes before you're 'stuck' with your DFA's customizable one.

With Heighten breath alone, you're looking at save DCs of 31 on your first two breaths, before any other forms of DC boosters. Considering the other boosters, you could probably get it to 40 or 50 before L20. Quickened breath gives you the ability to launch both in the same round.

Actually, the biggest concern such a character would have is identifying priority targets to nuke.

Be non-good to gain access to the breath of Taimat, and if your DM allows it, get into the Heir of Syberis(setting specific, but among the few decent DFA usable prestige classes). The Syberis route will grant you +2d6 on breath weapons, or +10d6 on the breath of Taimat(for a total of 55d6, by the way).

For anyone wanting to specialize in rolling d6s, this among the better ways to go.

There is absolutely no reason to go full shaman. PrC will help him w/ CON synergy SOOO much more than straight dragon shaman.

Godskook
2010-04-04, 07:49 PM
There is absolutely no reason to go full shaman. PrC will help him w/ CON synergy SOOO much more than straight dragon shaman.

Draconic Aura and the breath weapon's damage are both reasons to continue with the class. Each 2 levels sacrifices 1d6, Vigor aura is nice, and Energy aura boosts DCs by up to +5 in an element(Acid is a good one), but only if you see the class through.

What PrC are you thinking of that'd improve the setup?

strider24seven
2010-04-05, 08:30 AM
Yeah, what PrC is that? I'd really like to know.

And Mongrelfolk would be nice without the INT penalty. But the CON guy does Oh-So-Love dwarves.

Good call on the use of other people's powers for the Wilder.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-05, 09:24 AM
Draconic Aura and the breath weapon's damage are both reasons to continue with the class. Each 2 levels sacrifices 1d6, Vigor aura is nice, and Energy aura boosts DCs by up to +5 in an element(Acid is a good one), but only if you see the class through.

What PrC are you thinking of that'd improve the setup?

Right now that build has incredible nuke power, but is very one sided. Most of your power comes from DFA anyway, and stoneblessed, deepwarden, and fist of the forest would give you great defensive benefits. Heir of Syberis, like you said, will also be quite beneficial for more nuking power. Vigor Aura doesn't scale that well unfortunately, and if really want +5 on your breath weapon DCs, just pick up Draconic Aura. I also suggest a dragonborn gnome for metabreath feats and more CON.

strider24seven
2010-04-05, 10:45 AM
The problem with Gnome as the base race is further reduced strength, and it requires him to take Stoneblessed to take Deepwarden.

As a dwarf, dex is less of an issue, because Deepwarden replaces it for AC purposes. He's still got his 1 AoO per round, and he's not making ranged attacks. Strength, however, is much more important, both for melee attacks and carrying stuff.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-05, 12:32 PM
The problem with Gnome as the base race is further reduced strength, and it requires him to take Stoneblessed to take Deepwarden.

As a dwarf, dex is less of an issue, because Deepwarden replaces it for AC purposes. He's still got his 1 AoO per round, and he's not making ranged attacks. Strength, however, is much more important, both for melee attacks and carrying stuff.

I guess maybe for carrying stuff, but small size is nice, and you're never going going to be a competent melee attacker with that array.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-05, 12:34 PM
You realize your DM is quietly and sinisterly preparing oodles and oodles of stat damaging opponents for you, right?

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-05, 12:36 PM
You realize your DM is quietly and sinisterly preparing oodles and oodles of stat damaging opponents for you, right?

Who needs stat damagers when everyone except the CON guy has pitifully low hp?

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-05, 12:38 PM
Who needs stat damagers when everyone except the CON guy has pitifully low hp?

Because its funny!

"Do I leave their bodies in horrible ruins, or do I turn them all into veggibles?"

9mm
2010-04-05, 11:17 PM
Because its funny!

"Do I leave their bodies in horrible ruins, or do I turn them all into veggibles?"

Why not both?

Fineous Orlon
2010-04-06, 12:35 AM
The other sort of answer you requested...



P.S. A cookie and half an internet to anyone who gets the A team references. An extra cookie if you find all three.




Strength- The BA.

Intelligence- That's me! The Mastermind.

Charisma- Thankfully the face

strider24seven
2010-04-06, 04:03 PM
The other sort of answer you requested...

Two cookies and half an internet to you, sir/ma'am! What flavors would you like?

And there is a gentlemen's/gentlewomen's agreement between the DM and the players for this game. We don't boost our stats with items and DMM/Incantatrix Persists, and he doesn't throw Allips and Duskblades with Chill Touch at us.