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WarKitty
2010-04-02, 08:13 PM
After hearing that phrase, I got kind of curious...

How many of you are/have been romantically involved with the DM? Or have experienced a game where one of the players was dating the DM?

I'm curious because I'm sort-of-dating our current DM. With our group this is not a big deal, but I can imagine it being for some groups. So I was wondering what other people's experiences have been. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2010-04-02, 08:16 PM
My girlfriend found being the DM's girlfriend difficult at times, because in my desire to make certain that I was not favoring her, I would have a slight tendency to pick on her or give her fewer rules leniencies than I would my other players.

On the other hand, she was able to worm out metaplot hints from me now and then, so it worked out.

Dracons
2010-04-02, 08:17 PM
I never had a problem with my players when my girlfriend at the time played. She wasn't treated any different.


On the otherhand, once I found out she cheated on me, then broke up with me, then got married to the guy she cheated on me who she claimed up and down was her brother. And mind you she got ****ing married to him a month after she dumpped me. I later learned that met her /brother/ a few days after me and was cheating behind my back with him for months. her character died painfully. Repeatedly.



One of my players also met his wife through playing. Ironically she was the wife of the current DM of that group, got divorced, then started dating him a year later. They got married. Happily ever after.

Enguhl
2010-04-02, 08:17 PM
I remember my first (read: worst) group had a female DM that I was the *only* player that hadn't dated the DM...
That was quite terrible, everyone was getting special favors and I was getting screwed left and right.

Dracons
2010-04-02, 08:19 PM
I remember my first (read: worst) group had a female DM that I was the *only* player that hadn't dated the DM...
That was quite terrible, everyone was getting special favors and I was getting screwed left and right.

Well, at least in the end, you can honestly say she screwed you all.

Kesnit
2010-04-02, 08:36 PM
I'm engaged to the ST of the Vampire: the Requiem and Changeling: the Lost games I'm in. As best either of us can tell, it isn't causing any issues. I make a point of not metagaming and playing 100% within the rules to avoid accusations of favoritism.

Godskook
2010-04-02, 08:42 PM
I'm engaged to the ST of the Vampire: the Requiem and Changeling: the Lost games I'm in. As best either of us can tell, it isn't causing any issues. I make a point of not metagaming and playing 100% within the rules to avoid accusations of favoritism.

How well does the ST from the Vampire game get along with the ST from the Changeling game?

Starscream
2010-04-02, 08:49 PM
I taught my last girlfriend to play, but she never really got into it. So clearly we had to break up.:smallwink:

Dust
2010-04-02, 08:54 PM
How many of you are/have been romantically involved with the DM? Or have experienced a game where one of the players was dating the DM?
About 75% of all games I've participated in, excluding oneshots for conventions and such.

PersonMan
2010-04-02, 08:54 PM
How well does the ST from the Vampire game get along with the ST from the Changeling game?

Very well, I hope!

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-02, 08:56 PM
Well one of my dungeon master also DM's another group which contains his fiancee but I have not personally experienced it.

MachineWraith
2010-04-02, 09:12 PM
I'm the DM, and my girlfriend plays with us. I haven't gotten any complaints from anybody in our group, so I think it's working fairly well. One person in my group in particular is very, very outspoken, and would certainly speak up if he saw unfairness.

Besides, I'm fairly rules-lenient with everyone, and will often let something fly on the Rule of Cool alone, regardless of the RAW, so claiming favoritism would just be silly.

DragonKnight
2010-04-02, 09:12 PM
Our current DM is my girlfriend, it's yet to cause any problems. I make sure I don't get any favored treatment, because any time I ask for anything I make sure she consider it against items or feats the other players get so everything is fair.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-04-02, 09:15 PM
Nope, never had that happen in my group.

Granted, we're all guys and non of us are gay (or so they say), and my current girlfriend can't stand D&D (very difficult relationship :smalltongue:).

Glimbur
2010-04-02, 09:15 PM
The DM of the only active game I'm in at the moment is dating one of the players. Sometimes I think she gets hints or breaks on the rules, but we all do so it's not a big deal. The game is more puzzle based and sandbox and less combat oriented.

balistafreak
2010-04-02, 09:19 PM
Well, at least in the end, you can honestly say she screwed you all.

... epic win.

I'm the DM of my own group, and I can say that a relationship between me and any of my players would be super awkward.

... because we're all guys and most certainly not gay. :p

More seriously, I'd have trouble managing a game seriously if my significant other was setting on the other side of the screen.

jiriku
2010-04-02, 09:57 PM
While my wife doesn't play in the game I run, the past two groups I've played in have included the DM's girlfriend.

[horror story]
It sucked. In both cases, the girlfriend in question had very little interest in the game and was chiefly playing just to be involved with (or in one case monopolize) her guy. The women in question never bothered to learn the rules well enough to create or level their characters (and received DM-created characters that were several levels higher than the rest of us and easily twice as powerful). Despite having uber characters, they'd frequently get shafted in combat because they weren't paying attention and didn't really know how to play, and would whine and complain when things didn't go their way. They were inattentive and disruptive, often leaving the table to do other things repeatedly throughout the evening, distracting the DM with sexually explicit jokes and excessive public displays of affection that made the rest of us feel very uncomfortable, and had a tendency to be disagreeable and difficult all night long if they were having a bad day for any reason. Naturally, the DMs in both cases felt obliged to tolerate their girlfriends' antics, and in both cases, the eventual demise of the campaign could be traced at least partly to the disruption the girls caused.
[/horror story]

Now, I'd be the first to say that the underlying issue here is really that my DMs have poor taste in women, not that it's inherently bad for a DM's significant other to be included in the game. But you should be aware that you'll need to police your own behavior to ensure that you're acting mature and treating the other players with respect, because the DM may hesitate to confront you on any bad behavior.

Since you're thinking about this ahead of time and devoting some effort to it, I suspect that maturity and respect are already natural for you. If that's the case, I don't expect you'll have any problems.

Dire Moose
2010-04-02, 10:05 PM
During the brief period of time when I had a girlfriend, she did come to one D&D session that I was running.

She proved to be fairly troublesome, distracting me from the difficult task of getting relatively new players back on track after a summer hiatus and begging me to show special favor to her characters.

She created a CN elf druid (insisting that she be a princess as well), and upon learning that I wanted to have some intra-party conflict (I was thinking a bit of mistrust and intrigue could help in roleplaying), she proceeded to throw all subtlety out the window, hid in the forest, and tried to kill the party.

I broke up with her the next day for unrelated reasons, and the party's Lawful Evil monk killed her character in the next session, though against the wishes of the cleric of Heironeous who was leading the party (he failed his spot check and didn't see the monk breaking the unconscious druid's neck).

Serpentine
2010-04-02, 10:11 PM
My ex and I were co-DMs, creating the world together and taking it in turns to run campaigns. I'm not aware of any favouritism on either side. I'm curious to know what he's done with the world since we... went our seperate ways...

Now, my boyfriend's one of my players. Well, when I'm actually running the thing... His last character died a horrible death, but he didn't mind cuz he was jerk. The character, I mean. Now I've created a deity and legacy item for his pending character, but I'm also making a whole class for another player and everyone gets a legacy item...

DueceEsMachine
2010-04-02, 10:11 PM
I taught my last girlfriend to play, but she never really got into it. So clearly we had to break up.:smallwink:

Well, at least you have your priorities straight! :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, I've been playing in groups that involve girlfriend/boyfriend for the past ten years or so. (Good Heavans I feel old when I say it like that).

These include games run by myself and my wife - some of which were solo, which obviously lend themselves towards favoritism.... but I don't think I've ever been in a group where it was a problem, fortunately.

I think it has actually helped quite a bit, but that's just my 2 cents.

IonDragon
2010-04-02, 10:24 PM
Very well, I hope!

Probably not so well when they find out about one another.:smallsigh:

god666LOLLIRONY
2010-04-02, 10:24 PM
The DM in the game I played dated one of the other players, and it could be problematic because he would use that to try to get boons and stuff out of her. He also threw temper tantrums. To me it seems like if the relationship is healthy, among the couple and within the group, there shouldn't be a lot of problems.

DiscipleofBob
2010-04-02, 10:26 PM
My fiance's in the game I DM, and I don't receive any complaints. I do have to keep in mind our relationship and make sure I don't show favoritism, even if occasionally denying her Animated Rope and Immovable Rods gets me the couch. ((I kid, of course. She gets the couch :smalltongue: ))

I will say as far as roleplaying, her character has a little bit more 'screentime' because we spent a 2 and a half hour trip designing her character and she just HAPPENED to want to play a noble archaeologist when the main plot NPC of my game was a noble archaeologist. So, she's the goddaughter of the main NPC.

I do my best to accommodate the other characters, but it's difficult with some of them, particularly the shifter druid who wants to rally his and the gnoll tribes in a war against the civilized world.

absolmorph
2010-04-02, 10:33 PM
Probably not so well when they find out about one another.:smallsigh:
Maybe they already know.

On topic, I've had one girlfriend who was a fellow DnD player. She plays in a Ravenloft campaign. She also would have to ride a bus for about an hour and a half to get to where I live.
We never played DnD together. Although, we almost were in a Star Wars d20 campaign, which seems to have died (sadly; I had a wonderful character to go along with the criminal rising in the ranks and Force-sensitive Jawa, and had worked with the GM to come up with a slightly-customized set of armor). Ah, well.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-02, 10:52 PM
The very same game that taught me the phrase Snake Napalm...


God I hate that DM.

arguskos
2010-04-02, 10:55 PM
The very same game that taught me the phrase Snake Napalm...


God I hate that DM.
You hate a DM who taught you the phrase "Snake Napalm". Now, even if they're the worst DM ever, that phrase and the story behind it MUST be worth something.

Swordgleam
2010-04-02, 11:27 PM
"Can I join your game?"
"No."
"Why?"
"Because you're my girlfriend."
"Oh. Okay."

That's pretty much how that went, and my players were very grateful. I haven't seen any incredibly bad relationship shenanigans in other games, but I don't particularly want that in my group.

Kylarra
2010-04-02, 11:28 PM
The very same game that taught me the phrase Snake Napalm...


God I hate that DM.Isn't that the one with like the flammable adamantine or something? I vaguely recall this story...

absolmorph
2010-04-02, 11:32 PM
"Can I join your game?"
"No."
"Why?"
"Because you're my girlfriend."
"Oh. Okay."

That's pretty much how that went, and my players were very grateful. I haven't seen any incredibly bad relationship shenanigans in other games, but I don't particularly want that in my group.
I hope she got an explanation, at least.

Szilard
2010-04-02, 11:39 PM
I am the DM in the relationship. Though I let all my players do pretty much whatever they want, so there's not too much favoritism. She happened to choose to be a vampire and is effectively a few levels ahead of the second most powerful player, but those were their choices.

Seffbasilisk
2010-04-03, 12:15 AM
How...encouraging. Back when I was engaged, I brought my fiancée to game. Aside from wanting to roll the dice, and sitting in my lap (very distracting), she didn't do much besides occasionally request attention or divert my focus.

Tomorrow, I'm introducing my girlfriend into the gaming group I DM for...

She turns off my brain.

All higher thoughts seem to evaporate around her.

I can only imagine what this will do to my incredibly intricate plot.

Edit:


I am the DM in the relationship.

...my new Quote of the Day.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-03, 12:56 AM
Isn't that the one with like the flammable adamantine or something? I vaguely recall this story...

Yeah, a Warforged with Adamantine Body being melted by snakes drentched in lantern oil. Caused by a spell that's specifically stated to be heatless.

Zeta Kai
2010-04-03, 12:57 AM
My wife is a player of mine, but she doesn't get preferential treatment. She's not even the highest ranking officer on the pirate ship; an NPC (not a DMPC) is the captain, & another player is the first mate. Everyone get's roughly equal screentime & goodies, & I roll the dice in front of everyone.

BobVosh
2010-04-03, 12:57 AM
Out of 3 different DMs with SOs in game, I would say only 1 worked well, 1 worked ok, and the last was terrible.


Worked well: She was a gamer and understood what to do. They didn't bring drama, little to no favoritism.
Worked ok: shy girl, reasonably intelligent, and quickly grasped concepts. Didn't contribute much, but didn't take anything away.
Terrible: The DM gave open favoritism, in hopes that she would...give favoritism in other areas unrelated to the game. One of the worst dms I have ever had, even excluding that.(freely admit my worst DM stories have nothing on some of the posts I have seen here.)

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-03, 01:05 AM
The horror stories of "The DM's Girlfriend" are usually based around one or more of a few things:
The DM already plays favorites
The significant other in question is not really interested in the game but instead merely wishes to spend this time (read: monopolize) with her partner. In my experience this can stem from a misplaced jealousy that oddly one doesn't observe when one wishes to spend the night playing poker instead of RPGs...
The significant other in question is not really interested and is practically being forced to participate
The DM makes poor choices in players, which leads to many many horror stories

I was concerned about the second one for a long time, as an impolite way to describe my loving girlfriend is "clingy". She eventually convinced me to let her in after she made an effort to understand the basics and it was an all-around success. She doesn't play in our games so much any more, but without this introduction and try out, we never would have realized that she is by far the best DM any of us have played under.

I suppose my advice here is to make sure that a partner is actually interested in the game itself before inviting them. If they are, it can be a very rewarding experience.

obnoxious
sig

JadedDM
2010-04-03, 01:21 AM
I'm the DM, and my girlfriend (at the time) was a player in my games for several years. Like Astralfire, I tended to be a little extra hard on her in an attempt to NOT show favoritism.

Of course, two of my more chauvinist players believed fanatically I was showing favoritism or that I would at any moment, and did everything they could to drive her from the game. This included killing her character over and over again, until she finally gave up and wanted to quit. Naturally, if I got on to them about this disruptive behavior, I was accused of favoritism.

She's not my girlfriend anymore (for unrelated reasons), but the two asshats, have long since been banned (also for unrelated reasons).

Starscream
2010-04-03, 01:30 AM
The significant other in question is not really interested in the game but instead merely wishes to spend this time (read: monopolize) with her partner. In my experience this can stem from a misplaced jealousy that oddly one doesn't observe when one wishes to spend the night playing poker instead of RPGs...

If there were a type of poker that involved rescuing an elf princess from an evil sorceress with a low neckline (but not before braving the Forest of the Lonely Dryads), I might just start playing.

Nah, if your D&D games are like that then there's no way you have a girlfriend to begin with. I just remember a conversation I had with a female friend. She had found a calendar at a used bookstore of the sort of fantasy artwork that believes thongs can be comfortably made out of chainmail, and asked me if my D&D hobby bore any sort of resemblance to it.

No, it does not. My half-orc barbarian prefers his thongs to be leather with iron rivets, thank you very much.:smallwink:

Serpentine
2010-04-03, 01:55 AM
I think I've gotten lucky with my f:m ratio in games... The game I'm currently (sort-of) running is, I think, the first regular one with fewer girls to guys, or at least significantly so. First-ever game had a girl DM (not very good - she came from a very heavily houseruled game and assume all those houserules (such as "Clerics wouldn't wear armour because they would believe their gods would take care of them") were RAW.), me, and... 4 or 5 other girls, about 5 guys, two of whom only played occasionally. Pretty similar, though with smaller groups, after that. So yeah, never really come across the "gamer chauvinsim" and "girly-girl pseudo-gamers" and "chainmail bikinis" and other such stereotypes :smalltongue: In fact, one of the above girls is a notorious powergamer, PvPer, and all-round Very Angry Young Woman (so I'm hoping I won't end up in her game at the new Local Gaming Store :smallsigh:).
On the other hand, I have had guys who just refuse to learn the rules :smallannoyed:

Mystic Muse
2010-04-03, 02:10 AM
I'm currently in a game with a DM and his girlfriend. It's going well. The worst thing I can think of is that in a normal game of 2-6 the DM and his girlfriend had to leave at around 4:30. And even then that's only because she was severely sick. (She was sick and she came anyway. So, it's pretty clear she does enjoy the game)

that's all I have to say.

Clarissa
2010-04-03, 02:11 AM
Well, I think I can bring a little insight to the topic in that, I am currently dating my DM. I was kind of upfront with him, and said that I didn't want any special treatment. I know, this is super-foreign to a lot of games, but I really was interested in just playing the game fairly like everyone else.

Well, as much as he'd like to say he's not, I do get special treatment here and again. I've seen it personally, the fudged die roll, and other things like that. He's a really nice guy, and in all honesty, if any of the other players have noticed the special treatment, they haven't really cared. It's really minor anyway.

However, there have been the occasional incidents that didn't really have to do with favoritism, but just the fact that we were dating that caused problems. We've had fights at game, and the game ends up being canceled on that account. Things like that. I guess some would call it favoritism, but, yeah.

LaughingRogue
2010-04-03, 02:26 AM
I had probably the worst D&D experiences in my life with 2 former friends who were dating while we were playing...The guys name was ryan (DM), the girl's name was Nikita.

1. Ryan would often steal her dice off of her, resulting in her throwing a complete temper tantrum (girl was 17 or 18 at the time), this would result in the game being slowed down for close to a half hour.

2. On one occasion, I don't remember why (it might have been over the dice thing that was previously mentioned)...but she was crying --- they went for a "talk" in the bathroom to sort things out...and there was a very large THUD that was heard from the bathroom , which resulted in more crying and her walking home in the rain.

3. He was often very abusive towards her, much to our dismay to make him stop (i truly felt very badly for the girl, anytime i tried to help her, they would both say it wasn't my business).

4. On one occasion he brought fire crackers into the room and threw them at her feat, which caused much crying ( I can't for the life of me , understand why she stayed with him, and wouldn't let us help her).

5. Because of all of this, each person that was in the group is no longer friends with ryan, and despite all the things we did to try to help her ... she stayed with him and they are still together (they have been dating for 4 years now)

She dropped out of school, she was formerly a 4.0 student before she met him and being recruited by schools because of her musical tallant.

6. This is honestly the most disturbing tale i can come up with about d&d (but not so much about d&d, just about those two individuals)...truly saddened me.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-03, 02:38 AM
*snip*

This is really sad.:smallfrown: I wish there was something I could do.

is there anything I can do short of praying?

LaughingRogue
2010-04-03, 02:42 AM
This is really sad.:smallfrown: I wish there was something I could do.

is there anything I can do short of praying?

yeah... :smallfrown:


Edit: Unfortunately not...I exhausted all options (including police)...long ago

Iban
2010-04-03, 02:42 AM
I occasionally play with a group at my uncle + aunt's; the uncle is the DM and the aunt is a player (oh and my sister play as well). I can certainly see no favouritism in that group, granted they have been playing D&D for about 10-15 years (one campaign lasted for 7 years lol)

I know its only vaguely related, but I'm currently DMing a group in which my sister is playing. I try not to show her any favouritism, but she wounldn't actually benefit from it anyway lol: she has managed to make her character just slightly overly-powerful using only the few things that she gets (as well as the party) and good ol' teamwork (which is how it should be right?)

sonofzeal
2010-04-03, 02:57 AM
I once killed off one of my girlfriend's characters. I haven't had a girlfriend kill of one of my characters yet, but if all goes well (!) that may change within a month.

ZeroNumerous
2010-04-03, 03:28 AM
I have to agree with AstralFire and JadedDM. The few times I've invited an SO to a game it's ended with my SO getting fewer breaks than others.

torakfade
2010-04-03, 04:29 AM
I sometimes DM Call of Cthulhu, and my girlfriend participates; last time, her character got a badly scarred face due to a failed dodge test (valuable lesson: don't just poke your head through the trapdoor in the attic from where awful noises come), while most other characters got through unharmed.

So pretty much no problems, it's a game and everybody has to agree to follow the rules, there's just some fudging here and there for coolness, plot or DM reasons... but everybody in my games has freedom to act and will surely face the consequences of their actions, girlfriend or no. Otherwise, why would we be playing? :smallwink:

Dracons
2010-04-03, 04:33 AM
Any females here wanna be my girlfriend? I'm a depressed, misanthropic, slightly disabled, currently enrolled to be a pharm tech.


... yeah right. I'm never going to get another girlfriend. First one was the only one I'll ever have.

Glass Mouse
2010-04-03, 05:06 AM
I haven't played with my boyfriend, yet, but we've been close (means: group was formed, we created characters, we found our first playing date, session was cancelled, the group disbanded some weeks later... sucks...).
I may have been close to favouritism, if only because I spent a lot more time discussing character concept with my boyfriend (living together = more time to talk), which gave me a lot of cool ideas to evolve his character.
When we met for character generation, though, I tried to squeeze everything I could from the other players, if only because the fairness center of my brain went, "Okay, I've got X amount of coolness planned for my boyfriend, I need X amount of coolness for both of the other two."
I got some nice ideas, but not as much as I had for my boyfriend. I don't know - but I certainly hope - it would come after some sessions of playing and getting to know the others' characters.

Fudging the dice to keep him alive? Heavens, no. If he's not mature enough to handle an RPG, I wouldn't date him (or, if it's not immature, but sore loser-syndrome, I just wouldn't let him show up... I guess girls have it easier in that regard).

I haven't ever played in a group where the GM had his girlfriend playing. I have seen blatant favouritism, but that was towards a childhood friend (whom I despise... Yeah, I'm leaving the group, why do you ask?)

So... really, not much to contribute. Just my 2 cp.

Quincunx
2010-04-03, 05:15 AM
No problems here with the DM/fiancée. She was interested in the idea of the game, but actually spent most of the time sketching characters (which meant we got actual illustrations instead of talent-free manga-style scribbles that we ourselves contributed) and/or catching up on her sleep. Even if he had favored her--and he didn't--it wouldn't have been game-breaking because the favor would rarely have been influencing the game.

Eloel
2010-04-03, 06:07 AM
Any females here wanna be my girlfriend? I'm a depressed, misanthropic, slightly disabled, currently enrolled to be a pharm tech.


... yeah right. I'm never going to get another girlfriend. First one was the only one I'll ever have.

Sounds familiar.

Quincunx
2010-04-03, 06:22 AM
Any females here wanna be my girlfriend? I'm a depressed, misanthropic, slightly disabled, currently enrolled to be a pharm tech.

... yeah right. I'm never going to get another girlfriend. First one was the only one I'll ever have.

Hiii~~! I'm referred to in manlaw circles as a double-bagger; I don't have issues, I have subscriptions; all I want in a guy is tenderness and willingness to put up with me when I'm feeling teary and a steady income because while I'm strong and independent enough to earn my own money for luxuries I still have deep-seated ideas about guys being breadwinners; I'll never ever get a boyfriend because guys are self-centered jerks with like friends they won't share with me omg; do I look cute in this low-cut push-up bra TELL ME I'M CUTE DAMMIT.

[Disclaimer: The Quincunx is happily married, and knows the way to stay happily married is not to make such offers even to tweak noses, and is only a single-bagger thankyouverymuch, but assures you there are plenty of women in that class willing to be paired with you even here on the Playground.]

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-03, 07:28 AM
I'm glad to see this subject has little effect on most groups. However, I was privileged enough to see this situation at its worst. Constant plot changing to always center around the DMGF, right from the very start. It got so bad that several of us refused to make a character until she had made hers. A shame too. This destroyed so many good plots :(

magic9mushroom
2010-04-03, 08:00 AM
Well, I've played far less actual D&D than I'd like, but of the two groups I've been in, one had the DM's girlfriend playing, and no problems seemed to arise.

DabblerWizard
2010-04-03, 08:28 AM
If the thread title was changed to "The DM's Significant Other", I'd be much more wiling to comment. As is, the title remains heterosexist. :smalltongue:

Volkov
2010-04-03, 08:32 AM
My girlfriend is a Co-DM with me and has been for a long time. We met at my old DM's table.

Wagadodo
2010-04-03, 08:54 AM
I played in a game where we had just killed a dragon and was bring its hoard back in a wagon of all things. Then along comes the DM GF's character and stole all the gold out of the wagon. We are talking about a halfing the size of a small child picking up all that gold and walking away with it in her pockets, and as far as I know no bags of holding involved. Though this is the same person that received the handguns of doom. Small handguns that did a 2d4 damage with the rerolls of the four for more damage.

My current DM his wife plays. She receives some special treatment but nothing game breaking plus we know that to keep her interested she has to receive something every once in a while.

So to say I have seen favoritism shown at both extremes. Never had one go harder on their significant other.

SilverStar
2010-04-03, 09:13 AM
I have to agree with AstralFire and JadedDM. The few times I've invited an SO to a game it's ended with my SO getting fewer breaks than others.

+1 to this.

My husband's far more restrictive on me than on other players, and when I run, I certainly don't give him special breaks.

Game is game, relationship is relationship.

Mastikator
2010-04-03, 09:25 AM
I once was in a game where one of the players, let's call him Carl, because that's his name, was "secretly" interested in one of the other players, let's call her Lova. And this despite the fact that he already had a girlfriend.
She was not interested in him. But I think she was a little interested in me.

Now the players and the DM had known each other for years, at least what I could tell, and I was the new guy, and had only been in the group for a few months.

I think he got jealous of me and made his characters extremely hostile to my characters, even though he was a really nice guy otherwise.
Luckily (not really) this situation didn't last long because our DM went to jail for 6 months, then, shortly after he came back Lova decided that going to college (in another city) was more important than roleplaying with us.

Serpentine
2010-04-03, 09:45 AM
If the thread title was changed to "The DM's Significant Other", I'd be much more wiling to comment. As is, the title remains heterosexist. :smalltongue:Not to mention the misogynistic assumption that girls don't DM :smallwink: Or was that included in "heterosexist"?

The Glyphstone
2010-04-03, 10:26 AM
Not to mention the misogynistic assumption that girls don't DM :smallwink: Or was that included in "heterosexist"?

Nah, that would make it "Patriarchist"?

WarKitty
2010-04-03, 10:31 AM
If the thread title was changed to "The DM's Significant Other", I'd be much more wiling to comment. As is, the title remains heterosexist. :smalltongue:

Point taken. And I understand quite well, as I have DMed also (with my bf playing). I titled it how I did because that's the way I have usually heard the phrase (and frankly it does contain sexist/heterosexist assumptions the way it's usually used - mostly that girls don't play D&D, with a touch of all males will do anything to keep a girl around).

I think a lot of what helped with my group is that we all knew each other already. So it's not like I got dropped into a group of "his" friends. It's funny when he tries to not give away what he's planning though - I can almost always figure out what it is.

Probably also helps that most of the loot is randomly generated. Granted I seem to have more than my share of the cool magic items, but I'd like to think that's because I'm the only one with sense to detect magic...and our game works on "first person to grab the loot gets it unless someone can steal it from them."

ref
2010-04-03, 10:32 AM
I have not been in such a group.

However, very sad story from LaughingRogue. That guy (the guy in his story, of course, not LaughingRogue himself) should be in jail at the very least.

And special mention to the fact that we don't get to see Serpentine in a chainmail bikini. I'm sure it'd be quite the sight. :smallbiggrin:

WarKitty
2010-04-03, 10:32 AM
Nah, that would make it "Patriarchist"?

Kyriarchist :smallwink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy

Serpentine
2010-04-03, 10:37 AM
And special mention to the fact that we don't get to see Serpentine in a chainmail bikini. I'm sure it'd be quite the sight. :smallbiggrin:You've got a tube-top, no top, lei, tinsel, corset and dress. Don't get greedy :smalltongue:
...or do you mean me me? :eek:

amuletts
2010-04-03, 10:38 AM
Game is game, relationship is relationship.

You said it, unfortunately some people do not get this.
I date my DM. I don't think he favors me more than anyone else, and if he did it'd piss me off because the fun is in the challenge and I do not like getting something I have not earned. Dating him does make me more sympathetic to the Dms plight however, so I'll back him up on decisions when he gets challenged.

Serpentine
2010-04-03, 10:41 AM
Yeah, seeking special favours seems really weird to me... What's the point of playing if you're just gonna get everything handed to you? :smallconfused: There may be some of the aforementioned issue of simple greater face time resulting in better fleshed-out, developed and resourced characters, but I would happy to do similar talk with any other player if they were interested.

comicshorse
2010-04-03, 10:43 AM
I've been playing in a game with the same D.M. and his girlfriend for several years ( though there should be a better term than girlfriend considering they've been living together for 6 years ).
Played through several campaigns ( [email protected], Dark Continent and OWoD) the only problem we have ever had is perhaps a little excessive arguing ( they love to argue)

kladams707
2010-04-03, 10:49 AM
After hearing that phrase, I got kind of curious...

How many of you are/have been romantically involved with the DM? Or have experienced a game where one of the players was dating the DM?

I'm curious because I'm sort-of-dating our current DM. With our group this is not a big deal, but I can imagine it being for some groups. So I was wondering what other people's experiences have been. :smallbiggrin:

I've had a problem in the past w/ the dreaded DM's gf. In a D&D 2e game, she tried to tie up a female vampire turned elf through a potion, which was meant for the gf's gnome to drink b/c she could never find anything sized for her (on a side note, there was a simultaneous "I like where this is going" from myself and 2 other guys at the mention of tying up a elven woman). She ended up failing and shredding the bag. She asked for a retry, which the DM of course gave her despite destroying the sack. SHe did so by sewing it up w/o any implements (not even improvised).

And she kept "stealing" dice. The DM for some reason never bought her a set, which I think should be the obligatio nof the DM (if not to by her a set, but to share that set and make other players use their own).

So I had a problem w/ that DM's gf. In general though if you're a good and reasonable roleyplayer who doesn't take advantage of the relationship or squeal after a really good roll (another problem for awhile that seemed to develop w/ 3.5) you'll probably be ok. And if you borrow another player's die, give it back

comicshorse
2010-04-03, 10:54 AM
or squeal after a really good roll

Hey everybody has their quirks.
The girl I'm refering to insists nobody watches her roll dice if the roll is vital. ( this does actually seem to bring her luck)

PersonMan
2010-04-03, 10:59 AM
Hey everybody has their quirks.
The girl I'm refering to insists nobody watches her roll dice if the roll is vital. ( this does actually seem to bring her luck)

I have a similar problem. When I was rolling stats for my new character and everyone was watching, I got a 10. I asked them all to stop staring and started rolling 14s, 16s, etc.

Seatbelt
2010-04-03, 11:01 AM
Hey everybody has their quirks.
The girl I'm refering to insists nobody watches her roll dice if the roll is vital. ( this does actually seem to bring her luck)

I think they call that cheating. :P

The hand outs/cheating always confuses me. I have a friend who cheats a bit. But he has terrible self esteem/depression issues and it makes him feel good to pwn things. I let it slide as its generally only on occasion and not a constant thing.

On the other hand, I have a friend who cheats at video games like its going out of style. Which I can't condone. Especially strategy games like Civ. Whats the point of playing a strategy game if you use the world builder to gimp the AI?

On topic: I've never played with my g/f. Although I've suggested it a few times. She wants to leave "Guy time" guy time. Which I think is girlspeak for "not interested" - which is fine. One of my friends brought his g/f to a couple sessions I of a game I ran and in general it worked out. But she wasn't really interested.

PersonMan
2010-04-03, 11:06 AM
I think they call that cheating. :P

The hand outs/cheating always confuses me. I have a friend who cheats a bit. But he has terrible self esteem/depression issues and it makes him feel good to pwn things. I let it slide as its generally only on occasion and not a constant thing.

On the other hand, I have a friend who cheats at video games like its going out of style. Which I can't condone. Especially strategy games like Civ. Whats the point of playing a strategy game if you use the world builder to gimp the AI?

Not necessarily. Having everyone look away so you can change the die rolls is different than asking people not to all look at your rolls all the time. People can still see whether or not you change them, they just aren't staring at you.

With Civ, it's probably because it's fun. I, personally, enjoy making myself incredibly advanced/godlike and easily smashing all resistance. Of course, I usually sit around letting everyone else build up before I do so, but...It's just fun.

Anyways, I really have no experience with this. Well, I've DMed for my mom(who has also DMed for me) which is a different(albeit quasi-similar) issue. Things seem to go pretty fairly. Of course, she doesn't have the greatest grasp of her spells, her spell selection, the new 3.5 rules and the like, making playing with her occasionally very annoying.

kladams707
2010-04-03, 11:08 AM
Hey everybody has their quirks.
The girl I'm refering to insists nobody watches her roll dice if the roll is vital. ( this does actually seem to bring her luck)

I wouldn't have minded it if it was a small squeal. It's just I was always right next to her and it sounded like you could hear it 5 counties over.

Quirks are fine so long as they only disturb the group...well...you know what I mean.

PersonMan
2010-04-03, 11:10 AM
I wouldn't have minded it if it was a small squeal. It's just I was always right next to her and it sounded like you could hear it 5 counties over.

Quirks are fine so long as they only disturb the group.

It could be that you were sitting right there. I often find that what sounds really loud right next to the source often dies down considerably if only a few feet away.

Let's get on-topic. ...Unfortunately, I have nothing on-topic to say, so...

Grommen
2010-04-03, 11:21 AM
Wait what.... You have significant others that game with you!

This is most intriguing. I can only imagine the possibilities.. :smalltongue:

I must try this some day. It sounds "fun" :smallbiggrin:

Ok /sarcaism/

I DM'ed for my GF for a wile. She yoko'ed the party, split my friends into two camps, turned on me, and then said I was a Bad DM and didn't want to play anymore cause I liked my friends characters more than hers.

I'm taking the hint a lot sooner in the future. They don't get gaming....Out they go. I don't care how hot, or rich. Gata go babie..

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-03, 11:38 AM
Any females here wanna be my girlfriend? I'm a depressed, misanthropic, slightly disabled, currently enrolled to be a pharm tech.


... yeah right. I'm never going to get another girlfriend. First one was the only one I'll ever have.

Whats the old adage, "Its better to have loved and lost...l"? I wouldn't know -- I'm a computer science major :smallmad:

I have a steady group that I game with of about 14 people between the ages of 17 and 25 (obviously not all of them play in any given game). Two of them have been a couple for a couple of years (I'll arbitrarily refer to them as "Enrique" and "Claudia"). Currently Claudia is GMing a game that Enrique is a player in, and he is certainly getting some favoritism, but not in the traditional sense. Its a GURPS game in a homebrew setting based on some books that they are sorta co-writing together, so by nature of having massive metanarrative knowledge, Enrique's character is our resident "guy who knows a guy", Mr. Party Face/Señor Social Connections. Which I'm totally fine with, because its a really useful role to have, especially in a roleplay-heavy game, which ours is. I primarily handle the swordmastery, braggadocio, snarky comments, innuendo, womanizing and occasional nefarious skullduggery (Enrique's char is my employer, and he likes to keep his hands clean). My character is basically the party Belkar, minus the crazy :smallbiggrin:

I run a 7-man (or should I say 4 man, 3 woman) 4e game in which both members of the aforesaid couple are players. So far, it hasn't caused any problems. They like to have characters who are in some sort of relationship, whether it be lovers (their first two characters, Claudia = elf fighter and Enrique = elf druid) or brother-sister (their current characters, Enrique = teenage invoker of Erathis and Claudia = big sister paladin|sorceror of Bahamut). I've seen some dysfunctional gamer relationships in my years at the table, and though both of these people do some things that irk me from time to time, its nothing serious.

The worst thing that ever happened was an incident in which the party was lodged in a barbarian village that was going through a "last samurai" inspired modernization vs traditionalism civil war. Claudia's character sided with the traditionalists (who were lead by the tribe's head warrior, i.e. "berserker general") and Enrique's character sided with the modernists (who were lead by the tribe's chief and shaman, i.e. "civilian/religious leadership"). The modernists had the advantage during the pivotal battle, and the traditionalist "rebels" were soundly defeated. Claudia basically had an emotional breakdown after this point, and secluded herself in her bedroom. Now, this had more to do with some real life financial sh*t she was going through (never major in "ancient studies" kids) than the in-game events, but the fact that her character, and a number of innocents who were guilty by association (including the head warrior's infant child) had just been killed or given death sentences partly by Enrique's actions didn't help things at all. Altogether, the plotline I had written was emotionally fraught, and I had apparently neglected to realize that the party might not all side with one camp or the other...stupid me.

After the game I literally had to hold a series of third-party arbitration sessions for the two of them, both as a couple in real life and as supposedly allied party members. We managed to get everything sorted out.

So the moral of this meandering story is...actually I have no idea. Having a couple in a game can work, it can not work, and other than a close observation of their behavior out of game there's no way to predict whats going to happen when the swords and spells start flying.

EDIT: This may or may not be interesting to all you amateur gender theorists out there, but during the previously mentioned traditionalist vs modernist civil war, every single woman in our party sided with the traditionalists, and every single man in our party sided with the modernists. This despite the fact that the leader of the traditionalists was basically an illiterate neanderthal rapist. And by basically I mean literally.

kladams707
2010-04-03, 11:48 AM
It could be that you were sitting right there. I often find that what sounds really loud right next to the source often dies down considerably if only a few feet away.

Let's get on-topic. ...Unfortunately, I have nothing on-topic to say, so...

Considering others were vocal about it...

Mulletmanalive
2010-04-03, 11:59 AM
I long ago GMed in a pair of convention test games [for conventions i never actually went to, it must be added] with pregen characters.

While i never tried to give her more attention than the others or treat her differently, she, ironically, picked the predesignated "plot whipping boy" character on both occasions.

The first time, she called me on it and i gave in and displaced it onto one of the other players [the professional cynic inquisitor character was supposed to survive and not be believed in the epilogue but as it was, i ended up eating the final character in the climax having killed the inquisitor off early].

The second time, well, what can i say? She chose the paladin [in a setting where that really means something]

Her as a GM...well, I was mostly bored. It was Kobolds-Ate-My-Babies and she spent the whole damn time in a totally turnbased game spending the asbergers guy's turn reminiscing over an apparently more amusing previous game...

Light-Hero
2010-04-03, 12:06 PM
ARE GIRLS PLAYING DnD??:confused: -- I think my brain just melted.:smalltongue:

EDIT:
Her as a GM...well, I was mostly bored. It was Kobolds-Ate-My-Babies and she spent the whole damn time in a totally turnbased game spending the asbergers guy's turn reminiscing over an apparently more amusing previous game... I hate when people do that. It is contributing at all. Well if contributing had negative modifier at would be. :smallbiggrin:

Ormagoden
2010-04-03, 12:14 PM
Well, at least in the end, you can honestly say she screwed you all.

I just broke my computer chair I was laughing so hard! KUDOS!

magic9mushroom
2010-04-03, 12:28 PM
If the thread title was changed to "The DM's Significant Other", I'd be much more wiling to comment. As is, the title remains heterosexist. :smalltongue:

No it's not.

It assumes that male DMs are het, and female DMs aren't.

Captain Six
2010-04-03, 12:37 PM
I wasn't the GM but I do play with my (now ex) girlfriend. I always felt like relations leaking into a game was obnoxious and uncomfortable so I made sure not to let our relationship do that in game. Eventually I realized I was essentially ignoring her and was paralyzed between having fun with a friend and not letting my relationship effect the game. We eventually broke up realizing that the relationship was one for the sake of having one and that we were never really more than good friends in the first place. So things have been easier.

Swordgleam
2010-04-03, 12:47 PM
I hope she got an explanation, at least.

"Because you're my girlfriend" was the explanation. :smalltongue: She didn't mind. I ended up running a one-shot with her as a player, and she played a halfling rogue who set everything on fire, so it's probably all for the best.


No it's not.

It assumes that male DMs are het, and female DMs aren't.

This has been true in my experience. I might have an incredibly skewed sample, but very nearly all the girl gamers - and 100% of the girl DMs - I know are gay, whereas I don't know a single gay guy that games (a couple bi guys, though).

I really don't know why that is. Maybe the same switch in your brain that makes you gay (in women) makes you like math and the sound that polyhedrals make when they roll on a wooden table? Or maybe I just know a ton of gay geeks.

Iban
2010-04-03, 12:50 PM
makes you like math and the sound that polyhedrals make when they roll on a wooden table?

That is actually epic :P

And I do quite like both of those (but I'm not gay) lol

Light-Hero
2010-04-03, 12:54 PM
We have a lot of stories in where a couple had a bad effect or none effect. But what about games that became better be course of a couple?? those stories I'll like to hear.

Taelas
2010-04-03, 12:56 PM
You've just met a lot of lesbian gamers. I don't think I've met any (though I've met at least one who was bi). If I have, they didn't advertise their dating preferences.

Light-Hero
2010-04-03, 02:46 PM
I knew a gay guy that gamed once. He liked the idea of muscular warriors in Cogan outfits or leather armoured elf (Legolaslike) rangers.

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-03, 03:02 PM
This has been true in my experience. I might have an incredibly skewed sample, but very nearly all the girl gamers - and 100% of the girl DMs - I know are gay, whereas I don't know a single gay guy that games (a couple bi guys, though).

I really don't know why that is. Maybe the same switch in your brain that makes you gay (in women) makes you like math and the sound that polyhedrals make when they roll on a wooden table? Or maybe I just know a ton of gay geeks.

Funny story -- I was in a gaming group with 3 other people+DM, lets call them "Groucho", "Chico", "Harpo" and "Zeppo". Now, I had known Zeppo for quite some time, and had always sorta suspected that he was gay. Turns out he was, and right before one of our sessions he asked us if he could bring his boyfriend, who he had met on the XKCD forums, over to join in the game as a one-time character. He ended up joining the group on a longterm basis, so at that point the groupstraight/gay ratio in the group was 4/2. Later on, Zeppo and his boyfriend, who I shall call "Shemp", broke up; they were never meant for each other anyway, total odd couple. As the campaign we were playing progressed, it became apparent that Shemp and Harpo were getting a little friendly. Now, Harpo is the classic type of nerd who seldom speaks, doesn't take care of himself physically etc (we also had no idea he was gay). But low and behold, behind the scenes, there was some sort of bizarre romance transpiring. So Eventually Harpo and Shemp became a couple, and our group had, in the course of less than a year, gone from 0% gay to 50% gay.

On the flipside, every woman I've ever gamed with has been straight (and terrible at math). So Swordgleam, I gotta say that my findings are a bit different than yours :smallbiggrin:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-03, 03:12 PM
there should be a better term than girlfriendNope the order is courting -> engagement -> marriage. Its assumed the first two take a while and the final one lasts your whole life.


I'm taking the hint a lot sooner in the future. They don't get gaming....Out they go. I don't care how hot, or rich. Gata go babie..Wow... this is... you have problems.:smallfrown:


It assumes that male DMs are het, and female DMs aren't.Do you mean het = heated? Like body temperature. This might be true but... huh?

Kish
2010-04-03, 03:32 PM
Do you mean het = heated? Like body temperature. This might be true but... huh?
Het=heterosexual. That is, the subject, "The DM's girlfriend" assumes that, regardless of the sex of the DM, he or she will have a girlfriend.

Umael
2010-04-03, 05:40 PM
In order to be allowed to play in my game, ALL the players must be dating me! :smallwink:

Actually, it hasn't been an issue. Mostly.

We do a kind of round-robing gaming style, where one person GMs for a bit, then we end the campaign and the next person GMs.

We have one particular married couple - I strongly suspect that the guy wants to be shining knight in armor for his wife, and his wife is co-dependent. A relationship like two leaning towers - neither one can standing by itself, but together they kinda balance each other out.

In any case - the favoritism isn't out-of-control... but just once I would like to see the guy run a storyline that screws over his wife's character so that we know he's playing totally fair.

(She's a bit green on the running games still, so I'm not about to fault her on that end yet.)

Swordgleam
2010-04-03, 05:43 PM
So Eventually Harpo and Shemp became a couple, and our group had, in the course of less than a year, gone from 0% gay to 50% gay.

On the flipside, every woman I've ever gamed with has been straight (and terrible at math). So Swordgleam, I gotta say that my findings are a bit different than yours :smallbiggrin:

I've had a few groups that were like that. At the time, it seemed like everyone was straight, but then looking back, you go, "Wait a second.." It really makes me wonder about the cleric in my first D&D group, the only girl I've gamed with that I don't know for a fact is gay - but now that I think about it, I don't recall her ever talking about boys.

Oddly, everyone I game with in real life plays straight characters, whether they play a character of their own gender or not. A lot of the people I game online with play gay characters, but not usually in long campaigns. I play about an even number of male and female characters, and it simply never (with the exception of one cleric) occurs to me to make them gay.

Seatbelt
2010-04-03, 05:48 PM
My group tends not to worry about sexuality. When we were younger we made penis checks (1D12 + con mod) to see how big it was and there were the requisite brothels and such. Now we're less interested in exploring sexuality and more interested in exploring dungeons.

Light-Hero
2010-04-03, 06:01 PM
Now we're less interested in exploring sexuality and more interested in exploring dungeons. Which is basically the same thing. Exploring dark holes filled with untold horrors (I had Biology, I know what I'm talking about [Okay that was nerdy:smallsmile:], where you hope nobody has taken the treasure yet.

ref
2010-04-03, 07:08 PM
You've got a tube-top, no top, lei, tinsel, corset and dress. Don't get greedy :smalltongue:
...or do you mean me me? :eek:

no, wouldn't be nice of me meaning you you.
As for your alter ego Serpentine, there's no such thing as too much. But I'm not going to get greedy for this time, just for the sake of it. Sorry I scared you.

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-03, 08:28 PM
I've had a few groups that were like that. At the time, it seemed like everyone was straight, but then looking back, you go, "Wait a second.." It really makes me wonder about the cleric in my first D&D group, the only girl I've gamed with that I don't know for a fact is gay - but now that I think about it, I don't recall her ever talking about boys.

Oddly, everyone I game with in real life plays straight characters, whether they play a character of their own gender or not. A lot of the people I game online with play gay characters, but not usually in long campaigns. I play about an even number of male and female characters, and it simply never (with the exception of one cleric) occurs to me to make them gay.

Of the two female gamers I normally play with, one only roleplays women, and the other only roleplays men. You can probably guess what their personalities are like IRL :smallbiggrin:

The funniest instance was when woman #1 came to me and asked for help making a character who was a "badass". I told her to draft a backstory for my review, and to keep the phrase "what would Guts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guts_%28Berserk%29) do?" always in her mind. So far she's doing....okay. Being forceful and callous doesn't come naturally to her, and there have been a few instances in the campaign where those traits have been called for.

Dracons
2010-04-03, 11:22 PM
Whats the old adage, "Its better to have loved and lost...l"? I wouldn't know -- I'm a computer science major :smallmad:

I wouldn't have been so pissed and hurt had I know sooner she was lying about how she felt about me so that she could get money. I lost alot. I've still been unable to get any female to generally like me more then a friend.


Hiii~~! I'm referred to in manlaw circles as a double-bagger; I don't have issues, I have subscriptions; all I want in a guy is tenderness and willingness to put up with me when I'm feeling teary and a steady income because while I'm strong and independent enough to earn my own money for luxuries I still have deep-seated ideas about guys being breadwinners; I'll never ever get a boyfriend because guys are self-centered jerks with like friends they won't share with me omg; do I look cute in this low-cut push-up bra TELL ME I'M CUTE DAMMIT.

[Disclaimer: The Quincunx is happily married, and knows the way to stay happily married is not to make such offers even to tweak noses, and is only a single-bagger thankyouverymuch, but assures you there are plenty of women in that class willing to be paired with you even here on the Playground.]

What the hell...? Did I just get owned? Who's my new master? I'm scared...

Ormur
2010-04-03, 11:25 PM
The only DM's girlfriend I've played with routinely fell asleep during gameplay and left the group. She only joined the group because her boyfriend was a DM. It didn't bother me since there are 14 people in the group and the turns frankly take so long you could have a nap in between them but in a more conventional group it would have been disruptive.

If the significant other was a gamer or interested in becoming one and the DM was someone I'd trust I wouldn't mind.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-03, 11:51 PM
I think those commenting on the lack of political correctness are making an issue where one doesn't need to be made. If you have a similar story of a DM's significant other (or others since if we're being PC we have to include polygamists, too), post it and modify the title line if it's that big of a deal, or simply do as most do for threads they don't agree with: don't bump it.


4. On one occasion he brought fire crackers into the room and threw them at her feat, which caused much crying

That's terrible. Nobody should be allowed to set a character's feat on fire except the character's player. *runs*


And she kept "stealing" dice. The DM for some reason never bought her a set, which I think should be the obligatio nof the DM (if not to by her a set, but to share that set and make other players use their own).

This is a pet peeve I have with my gf. She has her own sets of dice and I believe I've bought her more cubes than I have for myself. Yet she insists on rooting through my dice collection (even though her initial set came from dice she hand-picked from my bag). I think borrowing/stealing my dice has some sort of significance to her.

I find it slightly more amusing than annoying though.


I wouldn't have minded it if it was a small squeal. It's just I was always right next to her and it sounded like you could hear it 5 counties over.
I squeal when I get 20s... much to the chagrin of the players :belkar:


ARE GIRLS PLAYING DnD??:confused: -- I think my brain just melted.
Now this sort of attitude -- even as a joke -- should be corrected more than the honest mistake/ill-considered title of the thread. It's just not funny any more. In the game store in which I used to work, someone made a similar comment about girls playing Warcraft when my sister went to purchase the latest expansion, which wouldn't have been such a big deal if it hadn't been the store manager who was backed up by the giggling male register-jockeys. This resulted in a substantial drop in business as word spread not only amongst those female consumers but also their families, friends of all genders, etc. Within a year, the store had gone from top-ranking in sales in the region for ten years running to the sixth.
Yes, girls are playing D&D. I hear they're even letting them vote now.

Edit: Changed it back. :smallbiggrin:

obnoxious
sig

Serpentine
2010-04-03, 11:53 PM
This has been true in my experience. I might have an incredibly skewed sample, but very nearly all the girl gamers - and 100% of the girl DMs - I know are gay, whereas I don't know a single gay guy that games (a couple bi guys, though).

I really don't know why that is. Maybe the same switch in your brain that makes you gay (in women) makes you like math and the sound that polyhedrals make when they roll on a wooden table? Or maybe I just know a ton of gay geeks.:confused: Yeeeaaaaah... I think the "skewed sample" option is the one to go with. Straight female DM, here.

Decoy: Give youself a pat on the back for crafting a game that morally grey and emotionally engaging.

Please Break My Campaign: "het" = "heterosexual". 'shroom was saying that the title, "The DM's Girlfriend" means that DMs are either male and straight or female and gay.

Seatbelt: I once worked out the best combination of dice-rolls for... "pants size". I think 3d4 ended up being best, with the best bell curve.

Ref: Takes more than that to scare me :smalltongue:

On-topic: Uh... Hrm. I think my ex and my character worked pretty well together. My boy's new character may get along better with my current than his last, but it's rather hard to see a Knight Dwarf-***-Elf-about-to-be-little-d-dwarf as a romantic being, so I don't think that's a concern...


edit: Irreverent: The title is somewhat annoying because of the inherent thoughtless (literally, as in "it just didn't get thought of") assumption. It's no big deal, and it's only been brought up a couple of times, but I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to bring it up, for similar reasons to those in your last paragraph.
More importantly: that last line is gold :biggrin:
edit mk 2: Aw, you changed it :smallfrown: It was snappier before.

Dracons
2010-04-04, 12:10 AM
This has been true in my experience. I might have an incredibly skewed sample, but very nearly all the girl gamers - and 100% of the girl DMs - I know are gay, whereas I don't know a single gay guy that games (a couple bi guys, though).


I know three gay players. Two of them DM. Matter of fact was how they met and got married/civil union whatever. One of them, my best friend, is no longer allowed to DM though. Seeing as he liked gay men alittle too much, and thus never had any female NPCs anywhere, and our characters would be raped by men until we magically fell inlove with said abusers. He tried to justfy it by saying we need to open our eyes and play different sexual orientations. He didn't understand that its not that we're against playing gay characters, but we were against playing a glorfied sex game period. We wanted to be heroes, kill dragons, etc. Not stare at Penis arrows, Penis swords, or be in a land where a handshake was to give a blowjob.

Serpentine
2010-04-04, 12:24 AM
Penis-handshakes... Well, it'd certainly cover the "demonstration of trust" purpose of the handshake's origins.

Captain Six
2010-04-04, 01:07 AM
Wow... this is... you have problems.:smallfrown:

I don't see why myself, if you have a major hobby while looking for someone to spend your life with, it's pretty high on my priority list that the person has that hobby too. I wouldn't date a girl who isn't into roleplaying, we just wouldn't have enough in common.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-04, 01:16 AM
I don't see why myself, if you have a major hobby while looking for someone to spend your life with, it's pretty high on my priority list that the person has that hobby too. I wouldn't date a girl who isn't into roleplaying, we just wouldn't have enough in common.

I have to agree. It's no different than saying "I won't date someone who isn't also a vegetarian/member of a specific religious group/gourmand/fan of literature/fitness nut/etc."

I'm not saying it's vital that a roleplayer/gamer date only other gamers, but I can't see any fault in making that a priority.

obnoxious
sig

PersonMan
2010-04-04, 01:28 AM
I have to agree. It's no different than saying "I won't date someone who isn't also a vegetarian/member of a specific religious group/gourmand/fan of literature/fitness nut/etc."

I'm not saying it's vital that a roleplayer/gamer date only other gamers, but I can't see any fault in making that a priority.

obnoxious
sig

But it's just a game. [/other people's reasoning]

I agree. I can just see where the other side(meaning those who disagree) is coming from.

JGoldenberg
2010-04-04, 01:31 AM
I have to agree. It's no different than saying "I won't date someone who isn't also a vegetarian/member of a specific religious group/gourmand/fan of literature/fitness nut/etc."

I'm not saying it's vital that a roleplayer/gamer date only other gamers, but I can't see any fault in making that a priority.

obnoxious
sig

+1

Back to being on topic,

The group I DM not only contains my girlfriend, but my Ex-Girlfriend as well, and I favourtize neither anymore than any of the other players, and any break I give my current girlfriend is because she's a new player, which I also give to the other new girl.

In fact, even though this isn't the subject, it's two of the most skilled players who tend to get most of the benefits from me since I use them to bounce ideas off of they generally have some sort of idea where the campaign is heading and thus can better prepare themselves.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-04, 01:59 AM
I hear they're even letting them vote now.That's where we went all wrong I tell you!


I have to agree. It's no different than saying "I won't date someone who isn't also a vegetarian/member of a specific religious group/gourmand/fan of literature/fitness nut/etc."Queue the twilight music.

Those things are extremely different and have completely different levels of philosophical and practical consideration. I'm going to pretend you overstated yourself, as I do almost never


Please Break My Campaign: "het" = "heterosexual". 'shroom was saying that the title, "The DM's Girlfriend" means that DMs are either male and straight or female and gay.Ah I see. I'm cool with both.

Off-topic: Wow you took the time to type it out. Usually people just say PBMC. I feel special. That was a quick avatar change. I liked the purple one better. You and I were the only purplish ones around :smallfrown:

Light-Hero
2010-04-04, 05:16 AM
Have you guys(and girls, significant others, straights, gays, aliens whatevers) noticed that almost all classes is referred to as a "she" in the sourcebooks ?? Maybe the favouritism goes all the way to the top of Wizardz.:smalleek:

onthetown
2010-04-04, 05:21 AM
I'm a DM's girlfriend. :smallwink: But it was only in the past few weeks that I started dating him, and right now we're just doing a solo campaign for the lack of people that want to play. If it had been a few years ago when we had a group of 5 or 6 that played regularly with us, it might have been an issue because I would have been playing with two of my exes (who hate the DM with a burning passion). As it is, I'm too shy to play in big groups anymore, so it's not a problem.

He's always given me favouritism, though, even when we were just friends. It drove everybody else crazy. I talked to him about it a lot but he never failed to give me the prophecy or whatnot. So I just started making characters so abrasive that he didn't want to give them any favours. :smalltongue:

Edit: And... I've only had one player who was remotely gay, and we had to get rid of him - not because of his sexuality, but because he was a royal jerk and tried to overhaul the campaign into being his. My DM is male and straight, but I'm female and straight and I do DM... I know a bunch of other ladies that DM, as well, and we're all straight. :smallamused:

Gorbash
2010-04-04, 05:23 AM
In a campaign that I'm currently playing and been playing for 2 years (Shackled City), one of the players is the DM's girlfriend. And this story reminded me of it:


It sucked. In both cases, the girlfriend in question had very little interest in the game and was chiefly playing just to be involved with (or in one case monopolize) her guy.

Only in this case, it was the guy who put her up to it. The only intresting thing to her is rolling the dice for Fireballs and Chain Lightnings (at lvl 15, mind you), the rest of her actions are decided by the DM, her character is a joke (straight Sorcerer lvl 15 with only blasty spells that DM picked out for her). She might as well be a mute, because I've never heard her speak IC and I have no idea what's her name. We often don't have sessions because she can't make it (DM has a policy that everyone has to be present in order to have a session).

Needless to say, I will never ever again play a campaign that has a DM's girlfriend involved.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-04, 05:32 AM
Have you guys(and girls, significant others, straights, gays, aliens whatevers) noticed that almost all classes is referred to as a "she" in the sourcebooks ?? Maybe the favouritism goes all the way to the top of Wizardz.:smalleek:

It's not so much favoritism as it is being PC.

Back when all the pronouns were "he", there was a subset of female gamers that were of the mindset that this was blatantly anti-female and was a form of discrimination.

I haven't noticed such a subset of male gamers. Thus, when a company wants the business of two groups of gamers? It's going to follow the squeaky wheel philosophy, as long as it's practical.

Frankly? I support "he" over "she" on the basis of reduced ink costs. I have no opinion on "his" and "her". In either case, I'm not strongly enough in favor of one set of gender pronouns over another to actually go advocating one or the other.

Trust me, it's not favoritism running to the top in WotC. It's money.

Serpentine
2010-04-04, 05:35 AM
Needless to say, I will never ever again play a campaign that has a DM's girlfriend involved.So, because of one single rubbish girl who probably would have been rubbish regardless of partnered status, you're going to reject every single person who happens to be in a similar situation? :smallconfused:

On s/he in Wizards material: Are you sure about that? :smallconfused: As far as I'm aware it's a pretty even split, as it should be.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-04, 05:48 AM
So, because of one single rubbish girl who probably would have been rubbish regardless of partnered status, you're going to reject every single person who happens to be in a similar situation? :smallconfused:

On s/he in Wizards material: Are you sure about that? :smallconfused: As far as I'm aware it's a pretty even split, as it should be.

I'm relatively sure that the core books heavily favor she over he in class descriptions. Example characters are fairly evenly split. Then again, I haven't gone through counting each. As I said earlier, it's not that major an issue for me.

That said, I'm wary of any game where the DM have an especially strong relationship with one player over others. I won't outright deny them, but I keep a very close eye out for signs of favoritism.

Gorbash
2010-04-04, 06:03 AM
So, because of one single rubbish girl who probably would have been rubbish regardless of partnered status, you're going to reject every single person who happens to be in a similar situation? :smallconfused:

Yes. She's so annoying that I won't even contemplate of being in a similar situation whatsoever.

It doesn't have to do have to do anything with her being a girl, the issue is that she started playing D&D because of her boyfriend. If she played it before it probably would have been a different story, but as it is she's a newbie in a group who all have played D&D 3.0/3.5 since it came out (and some of us 2e before that) and she doesn't fit in.

And there aren't many female gamers around here and so it will usually be the case that DM's girlfriend will be a newbie to roleplaying and I don't like playing with newbs (I'm elitist, not shauvinist :smalltongue: ).

Serpentine
2010-04-04, 06:18 AM
So because of a single dodgy player, you'll reject an entire class of players that have nothing to do with the first one? Cuz I saw nothing in your list to suggest it was the fact she was a girlfriend that was the problem... As for "not playing with noobs", well. I guess that's your preference, if one I find pretty repugnant.
Here's hoping it remains firmly in the realms of hypothetical.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-04, 06:22 AM
So because of a single dodgy player, you'll reject an entire class of players that have nothing to do with the first one? Cuz I saw nothing in your list to suggest it was the fact she was a girlfriend that was the problem... As for "not playing with noobs", well. I guess that's your preference, if one I find pretty repugnant.
Here's hoping it remains firmly in the realms of hypothetical.

There's nothing repugnant about it, IMO. If one is used to a veteran group that moves smoothly, the introduction of a new player can cause the dynamic to screech to a crawl.

I may have the patience for such education, but I'm hardly going to begrudge someone who doesn't.

Iban
2010-04-04, 07:13 AM
Which is basically the same thing. Exploring dark holes filled with untold horrors (I had Biology, I know what I'm talking about [Okay that was nerdy:smallsmile:], where you hope nobody has taken the treasure yet.

Sorry for off topic but this made me lol and reminded me of a mate of mine who we call 'Lord of the Enzymes' because his substrate fits into any active site :smalltongue: [/crude schoolboy humor]

Slightly on topic:

I wouldn't let my sister DM yet (the only girl in the group), not because shes a girl (I would get a good beating from her if that was the reason) but because she doesn't know the game well enough yet. I mean, she still has crib notes for which dice to roll in each situation :smalltongue:

Gorbash
2010-04-04, 07:25 AM
So because of a single dodgy player, you'll reject an entire class of players that have nothing to do with the first one?

I explained it already, it's not about her, it's because there aren't many girl gamers around here (I've been in gaming circles since 2000 and in 10 years I've met one girl who plays D&D, two who play Warhammer and only heard about others) and the odds are that DM's girlfriend never played D&D before that and I prefer not to play with newbies.


As for "not playing with noobs", well. I guess that's your preference, if one I find pretty repugnant.

Why? Because I don't want to spend my valuable gametime explaining how to calculate AC or which feats to choose or how many HPs do they get when they Rage? Please.

It took me literally years to get to understand 3.5 really well and as Phoenix said, I like when things run smoothly, with everyone knowing what to do and not stalling the game.

Kish
2010-04-04, 07:27 AM
I'm relatively sure that the core books heavily favor she over he in class descriptions.
I suspect that perception has to do with your views on the moral validity of caring about pronoun balance. Or in other words, 50% "she"'s looks like a lot because you're thinking there should be 0%.

Frog Dragon
2010-04-04, 08:02 AM
Okay, I'm looking through every single first gender pronoun in every PHB class.
Barbarian: He
Bard: He
Cleric: He
Druid: She
Fighter: He
Monk: She
Paladin: She
Ranger: He
Rogue: She
Sorcerer: He
Wizard: She
Male Pronouns: 6
Female Pronouns: 5
Bias my eye. It's about as equal as it can possibly get.

DabblerWizard
2010-04-04, 08:14 AM
The groups I've DMed for in the past have been fairly mixed in terms of gender and sexuality. For instance, the last group I played for had 1 straight guy, 1 gay guy, 1 bisexual girl, 1 lesbian (girl), and 1 straight girl. This parallels the sexually diverse group of friends I made in college, mostly. I've never DMed with a transsexual in the group, but I have had trans friends. I'm also gay myself, not that that has any significant impact on this post.

In any case, I just wanted to point out that the title seemed heterosexist, in the sense that it assumed DMs are male and that they only have female romantic partners. At least that's the first interpretation I came to.


WarKitty's Post:


Point taken. And I understand quite well, as I have DMed also (with my bf playing). I titled it how I did because that's the way I have usually heard the phrase (and frankly it does contain sexist/heterosexist assumptions the way it's usually used - mostly that girls don't play D&D, with a touch of all males will do anything to keep a girl around).

It's nice to see that WarKitty understood my point.


Serpentine's Post:


Not to mention the misogynistic assumption that girls don't DM :smallwink: Or was that included in "heterosexist"?

I was aware of Serpentine's point, but I didn't end up including it in my original post. I would just go with the term "sexist" in this case, instead of misogyny. Social ignorance doesn't necessarily coincide with hatred of a group.


Magic9mushroom's Post:


No it's not.

It assumes that male DMs are het, and female DMs aren't.

Magic9mushroom makes a valid point. I didn't originally consider that "DM's Girlfriend" technically covers female lesbian / bisexual DMs with female partners.


Seatbelt's Post:


My group tends not to worry about sexuality. When we were younger we made penis checks (1D12 + con mod) to see how big it was and there were the requisite brothels and such. Now we're less interested in exploring sexuality and more interested in exploring dungeons.

Even though my groups have indeed been diverse in terms of sexuality, they haven't been significantly interested in roleplaying sexuality itself. I mean, they've played non-straight characters, but romance was always a minor point, and there were only a few instances where they wanted to "go to" a brothel.


Dracons' Post:


...One of them, my best friend, is no longer allowed to DM though. Seeing as he liked gay men alittle too much, and thus never had any female NPCs anywhere, and our characters would be raped by men until we magically fell inlove with said abusers. He tried to justfy it by saying we need to open our eyes and play different sexual orientations. He didn't understand that its not that we're against playing gay characters, but we were against playing a glorfied sex game period...

This is pretty disturbing. There's no reason why you should put up with that. I'm not looking to roleplay explicit sexual events in d&d, and I'd just stop playing with a DM who insisted on that. It sounds like your former DM didn't know where to draw the line.


Swordgleam's Post:


I really don't know why that is. Maybe the same switch in your brain that makes you gay (in women) makes you like math and the sound that polyhedrals make when they roll on a wooden table? Or maybe I just know a ton of gay geeks.

I don't think there's any reason to assume that there's a significant interaction between same sexed attraction and visuo-spatial perception. I would say your anecdotal experience is definitely skewed.


Decoy Lockbox's Post:


Funny story -- I was in a gaming group with 3 other people+DM, lets call them "Groucho", "Chico", "Harpo" and "Zeppo". Now, I had known Zeppo for quite some time, and had always sorta suspected that he was gay. Turns out he was, and right before one of our sessions he asked us if he could bring his boyfriend, who he had met on the XKCD forums, over to join in the game as a one-time character. He ended up joining the group on a longterm basis, so at that point the groupstraight/gay ratio in the group was 4/2. Later on, Zeppo and his boyfriend, who I shall call "Shemp", broke up; they were never meant for each other anyway, total odd couple. As the campaign we were playing progressed, it became apparent that Shemp and Harpo were getting a little friendly. Now, Harpo is the classic type of nerd who seldom speaks, doesn't take care of himself physically etc (we also had no idea he was gay). But low and behold, behind the scenes, there was some sort of bizarre romance transpiring. So Eventually Harpo and Shemp became a couple, and our group had, in the course of less than a year, gone from 0% gay to 50% gay.


It's definitely awkward / entertaining when real life drama mixes into a gaming group.

Taelas
2010-04-04, 08:23 AM
Okay, I'm looking through every single first gender pronoun in every PHB class.
Barbarian: He
Bard: He
Cleric: He
Druid: She
Fighter: He
Monk: She
Paladin: She
Ranger: He
Rogue: She
Sorcerer: He
Wizard: She
Male Pronouns: 6
Female Pronouns: 5
Bias my eye. It's about as equal as it can possibly get.

You'll notice that this is equal to the iconic examples. Iconic Barbarian (Krusk) is male, iconic Bard (Gimble) is male, iconic Cleric (Jozan) is male, iconic Druid (Vadania) is female, iconic Fighter(s) (Tordek and Regdar) are male, iconic Monk (Ember) is female, iconic Paladin (Alhandra) is female, iconic Ranger (Soveliss) is male, iconic Rogue (Lidda) is female, iconic Sorcerer (Hemett) is male, iconic Wizard (Mialee) is female.

There is no bias here.

Kuzimu
2010-04-04, 09:04 AM
I'm a straight female, and I'm the one among my friends that taught everyone to play DnD.

My then-boyfriend decided to DM, and he did give me special favors in the forms of customizing classes, so I accordingly nerfed my character to make up for it.

And currently, I'm teaching my new boyfriend to play DnD, but he only really likes one-shot campaigns. He also has inherited from me the desire to play crazy characters, such as an Exalted Aasimar Paladin designed for maximum annoyance factor to the other players in the campaign.

Ultimately, being the DM's girlfriend or boyfriend seems pretty commonplace where I'm from, simply because us geeks tend to stick together and date together. Just don't assume that one bad encounter with DMGFs and DMBFs should ruin it for you.

Look at it this way: for every one girlfriend that is dragged in to play by their BF, there are probably three who will make great players for years to come, who otherwise would not have learned how to play!

Surrealistik
2010-04-04, 09:33 AM
I know three gay players. Two of them DM. Matter of fact was how they met and got married/civil union whatever. One of them, my best friend, is no longer allowed to DM though. Seeing as he liked gay men alittle too much, and thus never had any female NPCs anywhere, and our characters would be raped by men until we magically fell inlove with said abusers. He tried to justfy it by saying we need to open our eyes and play different sexual orientations. He didn't understand that its not that we're against playing gay characters, but we were against playing a glorfied sex game period. We wanted to be heroes, kill dragons, etc. Not stare at Penis arrows, Penis swords, or be in a land where a handshake was to give a blowjob.

Oh dear god.

huttj509
2010-04-04, 09:44 AM
I am currently DMing a campaign for:

My steady girlfriend of 10 years
Her twin sister
Her dad (who was playing DnD before I was born, think we decided he had a 1976 printing or something, maybe '78)


I have noticed no issues, and nobody has voiced any to me.

In fact, um, I should snag food and get over there for today's session, I think today we'll get to the reveal of what was up with all the chess pieces with secret compartments they found (the Black Queen was sending messages to her minions).

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-04, 10:49 AM
ARE GIRLS PLAYING DnD??:confused: -- I think my brain just melted.:smalltongue:

During college, here are two things I learned:
A) Yes, there are a LOT of girls who play D&D/roleplay
B) No, this will not help me get a girlfriend :smallfrown:

This might be peculiar to my school, as we have somewhat of a reputation for being intellectual -- we have a world-class chess team but no football team, for example though.


Decoy: Give youself a pat on the back for crafting a game that morally grey and emotionally engaging.

Thanks, this actually means a lot coming from you (especially considering that it's my first real campaign). I know our paths don't cross very much on these boards, but I'm a frequent lurker on the relationship thread, and lets just say that I take your pronouncements with whatever the opposite of "a grain of salt" is.


You'll notice that this is equal to the iconic examples. Iconic Barbarian (Krusk) is male, iconic Bard (Gimble) is male, iconic Cleric (Jozan) is male, iconic Druid (Vadania) is female, iconic Fighter(s) (Tordek and Regdar) are male, iconic Monk (Ember) is female, iconic Paladin (Alhandra) is female, iconic Ranger (Soveliss) is male, iconic Rogue (Lidda) is female, iconic Sorcerer (Hemett) is male, iconic Wizard (Mialee) is female.

There is no bias here.

Wow....it all makes so much more sense now. I had seriously assumed that the gender pronouns in 3.x were just arbitrary, but this blows that whole theory up. I am enlightened.

Serpentine
2010-04-04, 11:00 AM
Thanks, this actually means a lot coming from you (especially considering that it's my first real campaign). I know our paths don't cross very much on these boards, but I'm a frequent lurker on the relationship thread, and lets just say that I take your pronouncements with whatever the opposite of "a grain of salt" is.Aw, thanks :smallredface: Was gonna say, I find the gender discrepency interesting, too. I'd be interested to see if that sort of thing would happen with other players. I wonder if it could have something to do with how you portrayed it? e.g. traditional = naturey and eco-friendly, progressive = mechanical and industrial?

2xMachina
2010-04-04, 11:07 AM
You'll notice that this is equal to the iconic examples. Iconic Barbarian (Krusk) is male, iconic Bard (Gimble) is male, iconic Cleric (Jozan) is male, iconic Druid (Vadania) is female, iconic Fighter(s) (Tordek and Regdar) are male, iconic Monk (Ember) is female, iconic Paladin (Alhandra) is female, iconic Ranger (Soveliss) is male, iconic Rogue (Lidda) is female, iconic Sorcerer (Hemett) is male, iconic Wizard (Mialee) is female.

There is no bias here.

Bias!

It's saying females can't be Barbs/Bards/Cleric/Fighter/Ranger/Sorc and males can't be Druids/Monks/Paladins/Rogue/Wizard :smalltongue:

Taelas
2010-04-04, 11:19 AM
:P

There's no bias in picking iconic examples of each class. There's only one of each, with the noticeable exception of fighters for some unfathomable reason (at least to me), and they're both of the same gender.

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-04, 11:47 AM
Aw, thanks :smallredface: Was gonna say, I find the gender discrepency interesting, too. I'd be interested to see if that sort of thing would happen with other players. I wonder if it could have something to do with how you portrayed it? e.g. traditional = naturey and eco-friendly, progressive = mechanical and industrial?

It was more like:

Traditional == "Great Thunderhawk Tribe" -- patriarchal, illiterate, unwashed, polygamous stone age hunter gatherers who regarded all non-barbarians* as sub-humans who could be slaughtered, raped and hunted like animals. However, all disputes between honorable barbarian tribes, as well as honorable barbarian tribesmen, were settled with non-lethal honor duels to first blood. Of course, modernizing would cause a barbarian tribe to lose their honor and become "townfolk", and therefore subhumans and acceptable prey for other tribes.

* barbarians as in culture (a specific culture to my setting), not as class. I renamed the class "Berserker" to avoid confusion on this. I also renamed the "warlord" class "marshall" so that the concept of a "barbarian warlord" would make more sense in the setting :smallbiggrin:

Progressive == "Thundertown" -- standard D&D psuedo-medieval setting mixed with some Roman stuff. The barbarian's village would become a fiefdom of a foreign lord (The 29-year old Lord Farnis R'Amaca of Amacara, a country he and his tribe, the Amaca, carved out of the frigid tundra only ten years ago), and then the standard stuff would ensue: nobles, titles, bathing, "civilized" methods of aggression (going to war on false pretexts to seize land, assassinating political rivals in their sleep). Strangely feminist, due to a quirk in the backstory of the influencing foreign power. Aggressively atheistic, due to another quirk in the backstory of the influencing foreign power. I could explain more, but the setting is a joint effect between me and my 7 players + 1 stenographer, so its getting pretty complicated :smallbiggrin: PM me if you want any more details.

It's probably important to know that the setting I'm using is essentially my interpretation of what life was like during the "Winter War" in the the 4e canon backstory. Just imagine the "Ice Age" Magic: the gathering set as a D&D campaign setting, with some extra idiosyncrasies thrown in, and you have a somewhat decent idea.

At the time the civil war happened, the party was 2 women and 4 men. One of the women was playing the head warrior's right-hand man, and the other was an elf fighter with a strong code of duty. Both of these players seem to respond very strongly to the idea of honor. And, as strange and perverse as the honor system of the barbarian tribes is, I guess they preferred it to the alternative. The male players saw the prospects for laws, public sanitation and literacy as being something worth casting their lot in for. And so the party split 4/2, with the woman's side (about half of the tribe's warriors, led by Galwat, the 7-foot tall, illiterate half-dragon neanderthal rapist berserker general who claimed to be the son of the tribe's patron spirit) being soundly trounced by the party's invoker, shaman, bard|sorcerer and cleric, along with the tribe's chief, shaman, and about half of the tribe's warriors.

I guess the guys thought that, even though some of the methods of modernization were going to cause heads to roll, they were necessary for the greater good. The women wanted to preserve the ancestral culture of the tribe, even if that culture was....a tad barbaric :smallamused:

I will now stop tooting my own horn. I'm just so proud of my players sometimes.

Swordgleam
2010-04-04, 12:41 PM
I don't think there's any reason to assume that there's a significant interaction between same sexed attraction and visuo-spatial perception. I would say your anecdotal experience is definitely skewed.


I'll be the first to admit my experience is likely skewed, however there is a scientifically proven link between being gay in females and visio-spatial skills. :smalltongue: For exampe, males are generally much much better at 3d mental rotation than females; however, gay females are far better at it than hetero females. I didn't want to get all science-y on everyone, but I can link some of the studies if you're interested. (Though I only know how to find them through PsychINFO, which you might not have access to.) It's an area of interest to me since I work in the neuroscience department and my favourite professor's specialty is hormones.


:P

There's no bias in picking iconic examples of each class. There's only one of each, with the noticeable exception of fighters for some unfathomable reason (at least to me), and they're both of the same gender.

Tordek is a dwarf, right? The reason they ditched Regdar is because he was a white human male that was on the cover of a lot of books and in a lot of art, and at that time, they were trying to move in a more diverse, inclusive artistic direction. (This is also around the time that you you start seeing a lot of art with Regdar getting horribly maimed, since the artists were pissed.) So they tried to switch to someone a little less white and male for their iconic fighter, but a last-minute change landed them with Tordek, who is a dwarf and therefore slightly more inclusive somehow.

There was a discussion about all this in the RPG blogosphere some months back, which is how I know. This also coincided with Gerrard (a near-anagram of Regdar) coming to prominence in the Magic stories and art, above Sisay, the black (or hispanic-looking? something like that) woman who was the captain of the Weatherlight.

I don't know where to find the links again, which is unfortunate, since it was fascinating to read about.

ref
2010-04-04, 12:46 PM
Thanks, this actually means a lot coming from you (especially considering that it's my first real campaign). I know our paths don't cross very much on these boards, but I'm a frequent lurker on the relationship thread, and lets just say that I take your pronouncements with whatever the opposite of "a grain of salt" is.

A spoonful of sugar?

Dracons
2010-04-04, 12:59 PM
A spoonful of sugar?

No, both of are white. Hmm.

Pepper? No.

Ash! No...

Hmm.

Tablespoon of blacken water. There we go.

Knaight
2010-04-04, 01:01 PM
Okay, I'm looking through every single first gender pronoun in every PHB class.
Barbarian: He
Bard: He
Cleric: He
Druid: She
Fighter: He
Monk: She
Paladin: She
Ranger: He
Rogue: She
Sorcerer: He
Wizard: She
Male Pronouns: 6
Female Pronouns: 5
Bias my eye. It's about as equal as it can possibly get.
Interesting. Any notes on what they did for the GM? I've seen a few other games with varying gender notation too, most notably Fudge, which uses He as the pronoun whenever a player is brought up, and She for the GM. They also have male PC characters in most examples, and female NPCs, which is very convenient and helps you keep track of who is who in the more complicated example, and who is the GM, yadda yadda yadda (For instance, the multiple opponents bit has three female pirates beating on a male PC. Which is accurate for the system, it has one of the harshest multiple opponent systems I've seen.)

Incidentally it was written by Steffan O' Sullivan, and published by Ann Dupuis, both of whom were involved in writing. Odds are Ann did more GMing, and from talking to her it sounds like she usually GMs, so its pretty clear where the stylization comes from, although it was picked partly for clarity and usefulness.

Swordgleam
2010-04-04, 01:15 PM
I've seen a few other games with varying gender notation too, most notably Fudge, which uses He as the pronoun whenever a player is brought up, and She for the GM.

If I recall correctly, it's Whitewolf's official policy to alternate gender pronouns every paragraph. I can't remember where I read that, though, and it might have changed.

Knaight
2010-04-04, 01:37 PM
That official policy sounds like more trouble than its worth, particularly if examples carry over from paragraph to paragraph. Chapter to chapter would be much easier.

Light-Hero
2010-04-04, 03:46 PM
I know I've made some jokes in this forum, but this story is actually true.

It was my cuisine and her boyfriend (later husband) how introduced me to tabletop RPG. And one of the first system they taught me were DnD 3e. At the time they even ran a game store together.

On the topic: Its still if you had a DM favouring a "significant other" right?, then to my experience it has its up and down. Down, when the relationship is "bad", but all situations around such a relationship is kinda like that. Up, when the relationship gones smoothly, "significant others" often make great viceGM (if you know what that is)

Off topic: Story about a Girl in a Tabletop RPG (TtRPG). I knew this girl how had never played TtRPG before and only sporadic hear about it, I'll call her "Freja". We played outside one summer day and she came looking at us as we (the guys) where making our characters (the system was of the GM's own making) and asked if she could join. We of course was shooked, some might have said something like "GIRLS PLAYING DND -- I think my brain just melted". Freja was... one of the hot and super fashioned dressed girl, that you would be last to suspect playing TtRPG. But our GM said yes and learned her the basics of his system. She didn't say a thing until he was done (well there were some questions on the game mechanics, just to be sure she had understood it all, she was completely new at this, remember). The she looked at our GM, that had started something "If you what to be a princess, then all right since your new and ...etc", without blinking and interrupted him by saying "Can I have a hammer". GM said "eh... What". Freja continued "A big hammer, I want to be someone how can wield a big hammer". The confused GM said baffled "Like a giant barbarian Amazon ??". Freja responds "What is an Amazon". When we explained it to her, she almost started giggling. She became what one could refer to as the classic barbarian role. A Maul hammering Amazonian, completely stripped of any feminine traits, whom she in real life had in abundance. So ingame she was the first to say "lets skullcrush the b*****s", and off game she was the queen bee you find at the club.
Their is no morale to thestory, but it whacked my world to see just oppositions meet.

And their is one iconic core class with both a female and male image. The wizard with Mialee, female elf, and that male gnome illusionist (I forgot his name).

JaronK
2010-04-04, 03:57 PM
For what it's worth, our gaming group has always been about 50/50 girls to guys. Our core group is 3 guys and 4 girls, but we have a number of guys and girls drifting in and out of the games.

Right now a lover of mine is the DM in one of our games... there's never been a problem as a result, though of course I've joked about giving sexual favors for in game bonuses (this is only a joke of course). That person is also starting up as a player in games I'm running, but I don't foresee any problems.

Our group is also VERY incestuous right now. Almost everyone in the group is now with one or more other people in the group.

JaronK

Dracons
2010-04-04, 07:02 PM
Our group is also VERY incestuous right now. Almost everyone in the group is now with one or more other people in the group.

JaronK

....Where is this group, and may I join?

DabblerWizard
2010-04-04, 07:17 PM
I'll be the first to admit my experience is likely skewed, however there is a scientifically proven link between being gay in females and visio-spatial skills. :smalltongue: For exampe, males are generally much much better at 3d mental rotation than females; however, gay females are far better at it than hetero females. I didn't want to get all science-y on everyone, but I can link some of the studies if you're interested. (Though I only know how to find them through PsychINFO, which you might not have access to.) It's an area of interest to me since I work in the neuroscience department and my favourite professor's specialty is hormones.

Swordgleam, I sent you a private message to continue discussing this point without completely detracting from the thread.

Back on topic: I once had a straight romantic couple as part of my group of players. They were able to keep their real life intimacy from having a notable effect on their in-game interactions. I'm sure, if either of them DMed, they'd continue being fair and equal towards the rest of the group.

Jarrick
2010-04-04, 07:48 PM
Our DM's girlfriend just kicked us (The players) out of their house... :smallfrown:

Lin Bayaseda
2010-04-04, 08:22 PM
This thread made me seriously think about getting a "My Wife is a tenth level Cleric" bumper sticker.

Kylarra
2010-04-04, 08:39 PM
If I recall correctly, it's Whitewolf's official policy to alternate gender pronouns every paragraph. I can't remember where I read that, though, and it might have changed.In Scroll of the Monk, they change pronouns in the same sentence.

Noodles2375
2010-04-04, 08:49 PM
This might be peculiar to my school, as we have somewhat of a reputation for being intellectual -- we have a world-class chess team but no football team, for example though.


Playing at UMBC I see :)

Knaight
2010-04-04, 09:15 PM
In Scroll of the Monk, they change pronouns in the same sentence.

That is really, really sloppy writing. Either they are using pronouns for two people without nouns in between, which is acceptable in certain contexts, and can be done well by good writers (which WW doesn't have, they just have good designers), or in the interests of gender neutrality they change the gender of someone over a sentence without announcement.

Kylarra
2010-04-04, 09:24 PM
That is really, really sloppy writing. Either they are using pronouns for two people without nouns in between, which is acceptable in certain contexts, and can be done well by good writers (which WW doesn't have, they just have good designers), or in the interests of gender neutrality they change the gender of someone over a sentence without announcement.It's probably just sloppy writing. It's pretty funny to read though.

Serpentine
2010-04-04, 09:57 PM
Off topic: Story about a Girl in a Tabletop RPG (TtRPG). I knew this girl how had never played TtRPG before and only sporadic hear about it, I'll call her "Freja". We played outside one summer day and she came looking at us as we (the guys) where making our characters (the system was of the GM's own making) and asked if she could join. We of course was shooked, some might have said something like "GIRLS PLAYING DND -- I think my brain just melted". Freja was... one of the hot and super fashioned dressed girl, that you would be last to suspect playing TtRPG. But our GM said yes and learned her the basics of his system. She didn't say a thing until he was done (well there were some questions on the game mechanics, just to be sure she had understood it all, she was completely new at this, remember). The she looked at our GM, that had started something "If you what to be a princess, then all right since your new and ...etc", without blinking and interrupted him by saying "Can I have a hammer". GM said "eh... What". Freja continued "A big hammer, I want to be someone how can wield a big hammer". The confused GM said baffled "Like a giant barbarian Amazon ??". Freja responds "What is an Amazon". When we explained it to her, she almost started giggling. She became what one could refer to as the classic barbarian role. A Maul hammering Amazonian, completely stripped of any feminine traits, whom she in real life had in abundance. So ingame she was the first to say "lets skullcrush the b*****s", and off game she was the queen bee you find at the club.
Their is no morale to thestory, but it whacked my world to see just oppositions meet.Go Freja! :biggrin: And good on you for honestly portraying yourself in a bad light/shame on your for being so prejudiced :smalltongue:

Dracons
2010-04-04, 10:04 PM
No one loves Dracons :smallfrown:

Serpentine
2010-04-04, 10:08 PM
No one loves Dracons :smallfrown:Nup. You smell :smalltongue:

Dracons
2010-04-04, 10:16 PM
Nup. You smell :smalltongue:

This coming from snake lady? Oh sad..... :smallfrown::eek:

Serpentine
2010-04-04, 10:32 PM
It's not my fault you're a stink-butt... butt seriously, what did you want attention about? Or just generally?

NMBLNG
2010-04-04, 10:54 PM
Let's stay on topic, children!

I DM one group and play in 2 others. My wife has played in the past, though system mastery/complexity has kept her from really getting into it. (Which we hope to solve with a 4e archery ranger).

In my experience, the only trouble comes is when people break up and being in the same group is awkward.

Dracons
2010-04-04, 11:06 PM
It's not my fault you're a stink-butt...

Why do you keep smelling my butt??


And yeah.... same right now. I'm still hurt by my ex doing that to me. I had one girl in my Intro to Pharmacy agree to go out with me, didn't answer her door, or calls on said date, then after I left sent a text that she just too nice to turn people down, and while I'm funny and cute, she just doesn't like me that way. Another woman agreed to date me, but only if I follow and love God. So I'm just going through a stink lately.

My DM was dating a girl, but he became like crazy stupid pyscho possive whiny and crying all the time, that she had to move across the country, block his number, block his myspace/facebook, and on any community, puts her new email in, and blocks all know emails of him, because he still trying to get in touch with her.

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-04, 11:37 PM
Playing at UMBC I see :)

You a fellow retriever? I'm always interested in meeting gamers on campus. Hell, we may already know each other IRL!

Noodles2375
2010-04-04, 11:47 PM
Former retriever actually, I took the 30minute drive down I-95 for grad school :)

Ormur
2010-04-05, 12:29 AM
So ingame she was the first to say "lets skullcrush the b*****s", and off game she was the queen bee you find at the club.
Their is no morale to thestory, but it whacked my world to see just oppositions meet.


I don't find it so strange she'd like to roleplay something very different from here real life.

The girl in my longest playing groups plays a leap attacking barbarian meatshield while we boys play the mages that hide behind her (okay not so much the druid but he still doesn't enter melee much either).

Solaris
2010-04-05, 12:50 AM
Any females here wanna be my girlfriend? I'm a depressed, misanthropic, slightly disabled, currently enrolled to be a pharm tech.


... yeah right. I'm never going to get another girlfriend. First one was the only one I'll ever have.
If I wasn't half convinced you were joking, that might well be the saddest thing I've ever seen.

... Even though I'm pretty sure I won't get another one for a long time either. Heheh. When all your buddies have stories about some bat**** insane thing you've done and they're all different stories, many of them mildly-to-moderately horrifying if you think too hard about 'em, the females tend to get scared off.

Commiserations, though, especially given your later post.


Hiii~~! I'm referred to in manlaw circles as a double-bagger; I don't have issues, I have subscriptions; all I want in a guy is tenderness and willingness to put up with me when I'm feeling teary and a steady income because while I'm strong and independent enough to earn my own money for luxuries I still have deep-seated ideas about guys being breadwinners; I'll never ever get a boyfriend because guys are self-centered jerks with like friends they won't share with me omg; do I look cute in this low-cut push-up bra TELL ME I'M CUTE DAMMIT.

[Disclaimer: The Quincunx is happily married, and knows the way to stay happily married is not to make such offers even to tweak noses, and is only a single-bagger thankyouverymuch, but assures you there are plenty of women in that class willing to be paired with you even here on the Playground.]
Even though I know you're joking, that was still disturbing.


Oddly, everyone I game with in real life plays straight characters, whether they play a character of their own gender or not. A lot of the people I game online with play gay characters, but not usually in long campaigns. I play about an even number of male and female characters, and it simply never (with the exception of one cleric) occurs to me to make them gay.
It's a game about killmaimery and roleplaying with a bunch of nerds. Somehow, I can't imagine sexuality comes up terribly often.


I think those commenting on the lack of political correctness are making an issue where one doesn't need to be made. If you have a similar story of a DM's significant other (or others since if we're being PC we have to include polygamists, too), post it and modify the title line if it's that big of a deal, or simply do as most do for threads they don't agree with: don't bump it.
Stuff and nonsense. Everyone knows political correctness is the best thing ever.


Those things are extremely different and have completely different levels of philosophical and practical consideration. I'm going to pretend you overstated yourself, as I do almost never
I'm inclined to disagree, and here's why:
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2104/img0576w.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/i/img0576w.jpg/)
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6311/img0577wj.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/img0577wj.jpg/)

Any female who could put up with all that pretty much has to be my mother, a saint, or a fellow gamer. I ain't into incest and I ain't missing heaven by inches, so there's just the one option left.


Why? Because I don't want to spend my valuable gametime explaining how to calculate AC or which feats to choose or how many HPs do they get when they Rage? Please.

It took me literally years to get to understand 3.5 really well and as Phoenix said, I like when things run smoothly, with everyone knowing what to do and not stalling the game.
And it took me about two read-throughs of the core books to learn how to play the game, another couple of months to get a thorough understanding of it. When I taught my buddies, it took them about a single session to go from having never gamed before in their lives to being able to make a half-decent character and play without asking questions more than once or twice an hour. Some cats might need longer, but just how valuable is that gametime?


I suspect that perception has to do with your views on the moral validity of caring about pronoun balance. Or in other words, 50% "she"'s looks like a lot because you're thinking there should be 0%.
Gosh darn the standard practices of the English language.
I use 'he' exclusively in gender-neutral settings. It's not sexist. It's just how the language works. But for the love of all that is holy, don't use 'he or she' or 's/he' or any of the other similar abominations.

Taelas
2010-04-05, 01:11 AM
Gosh darn the standard practices of the English language.
I use 'he' exclusively in gender-neutral settings. It's not sexist. It's just how the language works. But for the love of all that is holy, don't use 'he or she' or 's/he' or any of the other similar abominations.

I use singular "they" for gender-neutral settings.

Frosty
2010-04-05, 01:16 AM
I use singular "they" for gender-neutral settings.
I'm not sure if that's technically correct, even if it is commonly used.

Malificus
2010-04-05, 01:18 AM
I'm not sure if that's technically correct, even if it is commonly used.

It's not recognized for things like SATs or School tests, but its common vernacular. Complaining about that is like complaining about people calling magazines 'clips'.

Frosty
2010-04-05, 01:22 AM
I'm currently stydying for the GMATs, so correct language-usage and correct grammar are seared into my brain :smallamused:

Bogardan_Mage
2010-04-05, 02:03 AM
I'm not sure if that's technically correct, even if it is commonly used.
It used to be correct, and there's a movement to make it technically correct once more. Failing that, however, I favour "she" as a gender neutral pronoun because of how biology works (by the same token, "he" should be used as a gender neutral pronoun for birds).

Our group actually banded together to convince the GM's girlfriend to play. We did not regret it at all.

Taelas
2010-04-05, 02:10 AM
I'm not sure if that's technically correct, even if it is commonly used.

It most definitely is technically correct. "They" has both indeterminate number and indeterminate gender. That includes singular use.

Claiming it is grammatically incorrect is wrong, quite simply.

Using a generic "he" is just as grammatically correct. The question here is not regarding grammar, but style. Some claim it is inappropriate to use "they" as a singular pronoun. Others claim it is inappropriate to use "he" as a generic pronoun. Many feel it is clunky and inappropriate to use "he/she" or "s/he" or "he or she" constructions. It is completely and utterly grammatically incorrect to use portmanteaus and invented pronouns like "ze", "hir" and others (I shudder just writing those two).

Solaris
2010-04-05, 02:15 AM
It's not recognized for things like SATs or School tests, but its common vernacular. Complaining about that is like complaining about people calling magazines 'clips'.

Bad example. Just... bad example.

Superglucose
2010-04-05, 02:24 AM
I'm not sure if that's technically correct, even if it is commonly used.
It's entering usage now. The technically correct pronoun is 'it' but people are squeamish about using 'it' to describe people because as a whole humanity is arrogant and likes to feel itself "above" other animals, despite the fact that it is a) technically correct, and b) something they do anyways.

Examples:

"Oooh, a baby! What is it, a boy or a girl?"

"What kind of dog is it?"

*knock knock* "Who is it"

TL/DR: english has not just one but two perfectly serviceable singular gender-indiscriminate pronouns, so people need to stop inventing more.

</grammatical rant>

Taelas
2010-04-05, 03:48 AM
Those are all are idiomatic phrases. "It" in this case is a polyseme -- it has more than one meaning, but only one is the correct meaning in the context. An actual gender neuter pronoun does not have a "correct" meaning depending on the context; it is always gender neuter.

Superglucose
2010-04-05, 03:57 AM
Let me get this straight:

It is not a gender neuter pronoun. This is what you are saying.

taltamir
2010-04-05, 04:00 AM
After hearing that phrase, I got kind of curious...

How many of you are/have been romantically involved with the DM? Or have experienced a game where one of the players was dating the DM?

I'm curious because I'm sort-of-dating our current DM. With our group this is not a big deal, but I can imagine it being for some groups. So I was wondering what other people's experiences have been. :smallbiggrin:

been there... it usually does not work well. Although it can work at times.
To those who say they never heard complaints from the players:
1. its kinda hard to complain about something like that.
2. if the GF in question is helping the party, then being able to help the party more might actually be preferable by the PCs. (aka, thank god we have the GM's GF on the team or we would have never beaten those encounters)

Bogardan_Mage
2010-04-05, 04:02 AM
Those are all are idiomatic phrases. "It" in this case is a polyseme -- it has more than one meaning, but only one is the correct meaning in the context. An actual gender neuter pronoun does not have a "correct" meaning depending on the context; it is always gender neuter.
Um, what? "It" is always gender neutral. "It" does not have more than one meaning. Also, just thought I'd point this out because I foresee it becoming an issue, English doesn't have gender differentiated nouns so applying terminology intended for languages that do is obtuse.

taltamir
2010-04-05, 04:08 AM
it is less gender neutral and more genderless (if we go by its common usage and less of the concrete definition). there is a difference.
people prefer to call even dogs "he" or "she" because they have a distinct defined gender. A table does not and thus it is always an it.
also, most humans are incapable of discerning a dog's gender with one look so "it" is makes sense in that context.

And a fetus also does not have a gender until later in the pregnancy. (you could say the fetus is genetically a male or a female but sometimes that doesn't manifest correctly and and you get a female who is XY... they can have children btw and are completely normal healthy females).

they is gender neutral... it doesn't specify that there is no gender, but that the gender can be either female or male.

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 04:21 AM
And it took me about two read-throughs of the core books to learn how to play the game, another couple of months to get a thorough understanding of it. When I taught my buddies, it took them about a single session to go from having never gamed before in their lives to being able to make a half-decent character and play without asking questions more than once or twice an hour. Some cats might need longer, but just how valuable is that gametime?


Very valuable because it's rare. D&D is one of the Top 5 things I love to do with my free time and because we don't play often (enough) I prefer to be quality time. Spending it teaching people != quality time.

And I guess you and I have a different interpretation of the 'thorough understanding' phrase.

Taelas
2010-04-05, 04:24 AM
Um, what? "It" is always gender neutral. "It" does not have more than one meaning.
Yes, "It" is always gender neuter.

When I speak of using gender neuter pronouns, I do it in the context of whether it is appropriate as opposed to using generic "he" or "she" or any number of other constructs, i.e. whether it is politically correct. In the cases Sugarglucose mentioned, the gender neuter pronoun is used because the actual gender of the individual that is referred to isn't known, not because you actually want to be neutral. Using gender neuter pronouns because you do not know the gender involved is not what we were discussing. Of course you use it then.


Also, just thought I'd point this out because I foresee it becoming an issue, English doesn't have gender differentiated nouns so applying terminology intended for languages that do is obtuse.
I am not sure what terminology you're referring to.

PersonMan
2010-04-05, 05:07 AM
Very valuable because it's rare. D&D is one of the Top 5 things I love to do with my free time and because we don't play often (enough) I prefer to be quality time. Spending it teaching people != quality time.

And I guess you and I have a different interpretation of the 'thorough understanding' phrase.

I agree. My group hardly gets together, and one of us is a very green player who just doesn't seem to get more of a grasp of the mechanics over time. Adding more newbies would both make us less likely to meet and make us spend less time playing.

Even in my other, more reliably-playing group, I dislike having to occasionally stop and tell my mother how to do certain things, even when the others explain I don't like stopping/slowing the game. I'd pretty much refuse to let another complete newbie into the game unless they had a basic understanding of the rules and had played before, possibly just a one-shot with the recommending player or whatever, but that first game is important to rules understanding.

The fact that we're playing an Epic campaign doesn't help.

Kish
2010-04-05, 05:34 AM
Gosh darn the standard practices of the English language.

Because the "standard practices" are handed down from on high and unchanging.

I use 'he' exclusively in gender-neutral settings. It's not sexist.
I beg to differ. So does, afaik, every etymologist who studies gender terms.

DabblerWizard
2010-04-05, 06:42 AM
'They' works as a plural, gender neutral pronoun, but alas, that's as close as we can get right now.

There's simply no singular, gender neutral pronoun in English, that also can't be used with objects.

'It' is definitely singular, as opposed to 'those' which is plural, and both of them are gender neutral, but 'it' also refers generally to objects, or significant others that one really dislikes. :smalltongue:

If only we could splice 'they' to get a singular form, into 'the-' or '-hey' or '-he-'. Unfortunately those words also already exist.

Our last resort is to just make up a random word, like 'snoyricken', and say that that term, is a singular gender neutral pronoun for English. Then, we just have to use the word, and imprint it upon our children, because some Linguists believe that a term is "slang" if only one generation of speakers uses it.

Back on topic: I wouldn't mind having a significant other that enjoyed d&d. I'm pretty sure that I could avoid playing favorites... :smallwink:

lostlittlebear
2010-04-05, 06:53 AM
Maybe this is just a culture-bias thing, but from where I come from, there are very few people who play pen and paper RPGs - and among those very few there are no women. Period.

Or maybe there are and I just haven't seen them, but I've gamed quite a bit in my local community and I have yet to meet a girl who rolls dice.

Ravens_cry
2010-04-05, 07:04 AM
'It', as well as referring to objects, extreme juveniles, and outside species, neither things adult humans like being associated with, is also a much harsher sound then 'they'. They, he, she, soft sweeping sounds, like a straw broom.
It. . . isn't.
I use they, and despite it's technical inaccuracy, at present mind you, I find it the best way to refer to others in a non-gendered way. I find I use it most on the internet, where I don't know, and don't especially care to know, my fellow Interwebers real-world gender identity.

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 08:23 AM
Maybe this is just a culture-bias thing, but from where I come from, there are very few people who play pen and paper RPGs - and among those very few there are no women. Period.

I think it is. Where are you from?

Here, in Serbia, there are almost no girls who play and those who do play, aren't at all serious about it. Have no idea why is it so.

Serpentine
2010-04-05, 08:28 AM
Probably the lack of newbie-friendly games :smalltongue:

Lyth
2010-04-05, 08:31 AM
The women wanted to preserve the ancestral culture of the tribe, even if that culture was....a tad barbaric :smallamused:


That is exactly it, actually. It didn't help that my ancient history and anthropology beliefs were starting to kick in. Globalism and progression is not necessarily a good thing, people - but I am not getting into that here. :)



B) No, this will not help me get a girlfriend


No, but it definitely aids in us girls in getting boyfriends....I have no idea why guys wish to flock to us. [rant] It's really annoying to not fit in with most of the girls, only to hang out with guys whose only desire is to get in your pants - especially when the feeling is not mutual. Leaves a poor gamer girl with very few friends in the end. [/rant off]

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-05, 08:48 AM
Off-topic and insanely sexist:


I am currently DMing a campaign for:

My steady girlfriend of 10 years
Her twin sister


HOT.

On-Topic and Gender-Friendly:

I’ve had meh and bad experiences. My current group has only one internal relationship and they’re more likely to go extremely hard on one another due to the fact that they have extremely differing philosophies about gaming and character building AND they’re both…not very good at either ;) Luckily, they don’t DM often and they’re fun to play with (my group rotates DMs and campaigns fairly regularly), so really, no harm/no foul.

The bad experience was actually not at a tabletop, but via a forum. We were playing a freeform RP (which already is an invitation to disaster when it comes to power-level) and our GM got a new girlfriend! I was very very happy for him (he’s kind of a dorky lonely kid…I’m slightly older and tended to give him a bit of a younger brother treatment) but things went...south. The girl was…not that smart. And while I’m sure she was smart in Real Life or at least nice, she was a raging nightmare on the boards. She joined an RP run by a mutual friend and a moderator had to remove her from it, excising all of her posts from the thread as she started to disrupt things horrifically. She attempted to join a Megaman X-based noir-style RP (it was every bit as awesome as it sounds) as an Angel-Robot hybrid and then sent threatening PMs when she didn’t get it. In the game her boyfriend was GMing, she was given extreme plot importance…and the game bled players like an abattoir.

Iban
2010-04-05, 08:51 AM
I'm almost on the flip-side of PersonMan and Gorbash. The group that I'm DMing a campaign for is made up of 5 newbies (me included) and one pro. Personally I find the time spent learning is barely noticed as we are all learning together, which works really well because we all make the same mistakes at the same time lol.

Unfortunately we cant meet up all that often though :/


Oh and I'm gonna chip in a question to the whole gender debate: Does it really matter what gender is mentioned in the books?

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 09:05 AM
Probably the lack of newbie-friendly games :smalltongue:

Nah, it's just that it's not their thing around here. If I meet a girl and mention D&D, I count myself lucky if she knows what it is.

And even on these boards, I don't see many girls in the debates, let alone optimization topics. Just a curiousity.

SaintRidley
2010-04-05, 09:10 AM
It is completely and utterly grammatically incorrect to use portmanteaus and invented pronouns like "ze", "hir" and others (I shudder just writing those two).


Fun fact - hir was once the possessive form of the singular feminine third person pronoun as well as the possessive form of one of the plural third person pronouns.

So -

Sche - She
Hire - her (object)
hir - her (possessive)

and

He (plural third person subject)
Hem (plural third person object)
Hir (plural third person possessive)

(the above three were supplanted by the other pronouns employed for the exact same use - the They/Them/Their line)

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-05, 10:12 AM
That is exactly it, actually. It didn't help that my ancient history and anthropology beliefs were starting to kick in. Globalism and progression is not necessarily a good thing, people - but I am not getting into that here. :)

Yeah, and the whole genocide thing that happened beforehand certainly didn't help matters. Well, I tried my best to make both sides fairly appealing, and it looks like it worked. Though our other female player, shall we say "Marjolaine", is extremely predictable most of the time; she will always take the course of action that is more metal :smallbiggrin:




No, but it definitely aids in us girls in getting boyfriends....I have no idea why guys wish to flock to us. [rant] It's really annoying to not fit in with most of the girls, only to hang out with guys whose only desire is to get in your pants - especially when the feeling is not mutual. Leaves a poor gamer girl with very few friends in the end. [/rant off]

Well, I think the explanation is fairly obvious: for a lonely, geeky gamer guy, the idea of having a girlfriend who shares his favorite hobby seems like the best thing ever.


Nah, it's just that it's not their thing around here. If I meet a girl and mention D&D, I count myself lucky if she knows what it is.

And even on these boards, I don't see many girls in the debates, let alone optimization topics. Just a curiousity.

Though D&D and tabletop role playing are slowly growing in mainstream acceptance here in the U.S. (thanks, WoW!), normally telling a person that you play D&D is a social death sentence. You really have to know how a person will react before you out yourself as a gamer. Of course, there are some environments that are highly conducive to that sort of person (I.T. jobs, etc).

BadJuJu
2010-04-05, 10:31 AM
I played in a game where the DM's g/f played, annd it was awful. She was a CN wizard, so she would drop spells on us without thinking. She had a ring of elemental command, fire, so she was immune. Now in this story, there are things to consider.

1. Evil party. 2 Baneite clerics. We ddidn't like her very much, and said so repeatedly. We were going to assassinate her, but Bane interviened and made us her body guards...Yeah. A Red Wizard who followed Mystra.

2. it was a 19th level party. She had 450k worth of magic items. She was granted spellfire for free, no feat needed. I had a +1 Longsword, even though I had weapon focus Greatsword. He literally wouldn't let me buy a magic greatsword Like it would matter, he never let us have money. I finally got full plate, and then a Bebilith tore it to shreds the next game session. No enemies ever attacked her. EVER. An assassin ambushed the party, and chose a fighter looking guy over the mage.

3. In the middle of a plot line, if she didn 't like it, he would drop it and move n, the rest of us be damned.

Solaris
2010-04-05, 11:27 AM
I suppose I should actually say something on-topic. My ex-girlfriend and I met through online text-based RPGs, and I usually ran them. She didn't get any special favors, and our characters never had any sort of romantic relationships.


Very valuable because it's rare. D&D is one of the Top 5 things I love to do with my free time and because we don't play often (enough) I prefer to be quality time. Spending it teaching people != quality time.

And I guess you and I have a different interpretation of the 'thorough understanding' phrase.

I can understand without condoning or condemning. I enjoy infecti sharing the hobby with others, but just because I do doesn't mean you have to, too.

By 'thorough understanding' I mean knowing the game quite thoroughly, though I'm not exactly the type to look for gamebreaking builds. I started off knowing how to play AD&D (required a couple of sessions to learn, as my father knew how to play). My brother and I played just about every day during that period, so that helped me learn how to play. It's easy for me to train up new players because I'm just a good teacher and (mostly) these cats were fairly clever.


Because the "standard practices" are handed down from on high and unchanging.

Not unchanging, but I'll never change my methods of speech because of political correctness.


I beg to differ. So does, afaik, every etymologist who studies gender terms.

Then I say this to everyone who's offended by my use of "He": May all your problems be so large. I mean every word of that, too. Who does it harm, really? How does it harm?

Taelas
2010-04-05, 11:29 AM
It reinforces a sexist world view. It may not matter to you, but it matters to some.

Boci
2010-04-05, 11:51 AM
It reinforces a sexist world view. It may not matter to you, but it matters to some.

Unless you can actually prove using 'he' as a gender neutral term contributes to gender descrimination I don't think thats a fair accusation.

As far as the DM's girlfriend goes at the games I run, its usually fine. No one feels I blatantly favour her, although there are some minor issues. For example, one player complained I almost always okay her character concepts, but there were reasons for this.

1. She learnt DnD from me, so she took on certain aspects of my aproach to character creation.
2. She knows me better than anyone else, and she's inteligent so she can usually guess wether I will like a certain character or not.

Although I guess one must also consider that she can make her requests for a character when I am in a very good mood.

Taelas
2010-04-05, 11:53 AM
Unless you can actually prove using 'he' as a gender neutral term contributes to gender descrimination I don't think thats a fair accusation.

There is nothing to "prove"; it's a fact. Using generic "he" implies (regardless of the user's intention) that it is the more important pronoun.

WarKitty
2010-04-05, 11:57 AM
Nah, it's just that it's not their thing around here. If I meet a girl and mention D&D, I count myself lucky if she knows what it is.

And even on these boards, I don't see many girls in the debates, let alone optimization topics. Just a curiousity.

I'm a bit new on these boards, but I've found that a *lot* of girls hide their gender online. I do it in many places. Can be a huge hassle presenting as female online in geek circles.

Indon
2010-04-05, 11:58 AM
DM end of one of these, some while back when I was somewhat younger and far less mature.

I'm reasonably certain that my DMing was not adversely affected by the relationship. I wasn't the most stellar DM at the time anyway, but I'm pretty sure she didn't make it worse.

Meanwhile, another person in that group was crushing on said female (and she eventually left me for him, for reasons unrelated to RPGs). He manifested many of the symptoms of bad DMing in regards to her, even while they weren't together.


Have you guys(and girls, significant others, straights, gays, aliens whatevers) noticed that almost all classes is referred to as a "she" in the sourcebooks ?? Maybe the favouritism goes all the way to the top of Wizardz.:smalleek:

This is an intentional subversion on the part of many authors regarding the use of 'he' as the standard pronoun for both genders. In particular, I do believe it is part of White Wolf's writing standard.


In Scroll of the Monk, they change pronouns in the same sentence.

Well, to be fair, it's Exalted, and when you're dealing with that universe, you never know.


I'm not sure if that's technically correct, even if it is commonly used.

The they/them/their approach is both gender fair and easily understood, and what I prefer to write with for my homebrewing (though I do lapse sometimes).


No, but it definitely aids in us girls in getting boyfriends....I have no idea why guys wish to flock to us. [rant] It's really annoying to not fit in with most of the girls, only to hang out with guys whose only desire is to get in your pants - especially when the feeling is not mutual. Leaves a poor gamer girl with very few friends in the end. [/rant off]

It's a gender disparity feedback loop, really - a lot of that unreasonable interest is due to the scarcity of female players... which leads to driving off female players.

Boci
2010-04-05, 12:06 PM
There is nothing to "prove"; it's a fact. Using generic "he" implies (regardless of the user's intention) that it is the more important pronoun.

And describing the small burning pieces of fuel that separate from the main body of a flame as "sparks" contributes to ignorance. If someone's belief of masculine superiority is based on the "he" pronoun being used more often then they are clearly an idiot and would find another reason if "he" was only used to describe males. I just don't think it’s that big an issue, and there is no need to accuse someone of being wrong if they speak a different form of English to you. I do not go around correcting the grammar of Scottish people.

Kylarra
2010-04-05, 12:09 PM
Well, to be fair, it's Exalted, and when you're dealing with that universe, you never know.... fair enough. In my current game, I referred to one of our circle's Lunar mate as "she" and he looked relieved. The one player who was actually familiar with Lunars and specifically twin-faced hero just snerked.

Taelas
2010-04-05, 12:09 PM
And describing the small burning pieces of fuel that separate from the main body of a flame as "sparks" contributes to ignorance. If someone's belief of masculine superiority is based on the "he" pronoun being used more often then they are clearly an idiot and would find another reason if "he" was only used to describe males. I just don't think it’s that big an issue, and there is no need to accuse someone of being wrong if they speak a different form of English to you. I do not go around correcting the grammar of Scottish people.

It has nothing to do with the personal belief of anyone in particular. Using it reinforces a negative stereotype. How is this difficult to understand?

No, it is not a "huge" thing. It is not particularly important, and most people can easily look past it. This changes nothing. It still reinforces a negative stereotype.

Kish
2010-04-05, 12:13 PM
I just don't think it’s that big an issue,
Asking someone to prove that using 'he' as a gender neutral term contributes to gender discrimination is a great deal like asking someone to prove that fire is hot. You'll never find a reputable etymologist who says that male pronouns convey a gender-neutral worldview.

Boci
2010-04-05, 12:14 PM
It has nothing to do with the personal belief of anyone in particular. Using it reinforces a negative stereotype. How is this difficult to understand?

Still doesn't allow you to tell others that the form of english you speak it righ and theirs is wrong.


No, it is not a "huge" thing. It is not particularly important, and most people can easily look past it. This changes nothing. It still reinforces a negative stereotype.

Fashion culture is a far more significant cause of gender discrimination today. If someone says they like miniskirts are you going to hound them about "reinforces a negative stereotype"?


Asking someone to prove that using 'he' as a gender neutral term contributes to gender discrimination is a great deal like asking someone to prove that fire is hot. You'll never find a reputable etymologist who says that male pronouns convey a gender-neutral worldview.

Can you name a single case that would not have happened if everyone used he for males only? If not then accusing someone of being sexist for using a very common error is hardly fair.

Octopus Jack
2010-04-05, 12:17 PM
I'm going to add to the discusion and say i've never been in a group where people have been together, true it's a small group of four people who are all straight guys. Actually I really should get about expanding the group.

Well I hope my input gave you all great insight!

Taelas
2010-04-05, 12:18 PM
Still doesn't allow you to tell others that the form of english you speak it righ and theirs is wrong.
Which I did not do. I said: "It reinforces a sexist world view. It may not matter to you, but it matters to some."


Fashion culture is a far more significant cause of gender discrimination today. If someone says they like miniskirts are you going to hound them about "reinforces a negative stereotype"?
No, the subject does not matter that much to me. I was simply responding to Solaris' question as to how it could hurt.

Boci
2010-04-05, 12:21 PM
Which I did not do. I said: "It reinforces a sexist world view. It may not matter to you, but it matters to some."

Yeah, "saying your use of english is sexist" is completly different from saying "your use of english is wrong".

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 12:24 PM
I'm a bit new on these boards, but I've found that a *lot* of girls hide their gender online. I do it in many places. Can be a huge hassle presenting as female online in geek circles.

I don't see why it would be. Anyways, those who hide their gender aside, just check any optimization thread and you'll see that it's usually mostly guys who don't hide their gender.

I guess rules crunching isn't really a girl thing.

Gnaeus
2010-04-05, 12:25 PM
Re: Gender imbalance in sci-fi fandom. Clearly it is huge. For those gamer geeks who lament the lack of access to members of the opposite sex that this entails, I recommend widening your fandom. In my experience:

Fantasy literary cons are sometimes overwhelmingly female. I was really sad when I went to my first Harry Potter convention a couple of months after I was married. Very close to a 10-1 female-male ratio, and many of the males (like me) were there with their wives. Buffy cons can have similar ratios. Cos-play can also.

LARPS can vary, but in my experience usually run about 50-50. Maybe because of the dress-up element.

Tabletop and strategy gaming, as noted, tends to be overwhelmingly male. I would guess close to the inverse of the literary con ratio.

To check this, the next time you go to a big, multi genre con (like Dragoncon, or some of the big west coast cons, not a dedicated gaming event like Gen-Con) try forcing yourself out of the gaming floor and walk through some of the different tracks. It is kind of amazing how we segregate ourselves really.

Re DMs Girlfriend: I have seen this phenomenon mostly in LARPS, probably because (as noted above) they are much more gender balanced. Unfortunately, it is also a bigger problem in a LARP, because of the differences between LARPs and Tabletop:

1. A tabletop game usually has players who are roughly equal. Party members about the same level, doing the same stuff. A LARP usually has organizations and hierarchies. If the ST has to pick people to start the game in glamorous, role-play intensive leadership positions, the significant other will probably get one if they want one.

2. Tabletop games tend to be mostly cooperative. While players might get upset if the DM clearly plays favorites, there are rarely rules calls that are actively good for players ABC and bad for DEF. LARPs are often competative. If there is an unclear rule, and DM rules in favor of the partner, someone probably just got hurt by that ruling.

3. It is easy to get the APPEARANCE of favoritism in a LARP even if none exists. In a tabletop game, you probably have about 4-7 people. They all know and trust each other. They are likely to talk to the DM if there is a problem. In a LARP, you may have 20+ people. Some of them probably don't know the ST or the significant other well, and may actively dislike one or both of them. Any suspicions of bias may linger and fester.

4. In a tabletop game, people usually join at least in part because they are friends with the DM. In a LARP, they may not know the DM well. They may have joined before that person became a DM. That means that in the event of a breakup, they are much less likely to leave and find another group elsewhere. This has its own set of problems.

R. Shackleford
2010-04-05, 12:26 PM
Our group runs two games. In general, 'no girls allowed' is an unspoken rule, because eventually they'll spark drama if they aren't already dating someone, and if they are dating someone, then "if you have a girlfriend, you don't bring her to the comic book store period" subrule applies.

The superule is: "If you could be getting laid right now, you can skip out in DND that week."

Taelas
2010-04-05, 12:27 PM
Yeah, "saying your use of english is sexist" is completly different from saying "your use of english is wrong".

... yes, it is. One is based on fact, the other is a personal judgement.

Lamech
2010-04-05, 12:27 PM
It has nothing to do with the personal belief of anyone in particular. Using it reinforces a negative stereotype. How is this difficult to understand?

No, it is not a "huge" thing. It is not particularly important, and most people can easily look past it. This changes nothing. It still reinforces a negative stereotype.
This is something that needs an experimental study to support it, simply repeating oneself doesn't help make your case. I mean it seems logical, and using "they" might annoy grammar people so I use "they", but you haven't done anything to show your point of view.

On topic: I had a GM with a girlfriend as a player and I'm pretty sure he tried to get her killed a few times.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-05, 12:33 PM
Our group runs two games. In general, 'no girls allowed' is an unspoken rule, because eventually they'll spark drama if they aren't already dating someone, and if they are dating someone, then "if you have a girlfriend, you don't bring her to the comic book store period" subrule applies.

The superule is: "If you could be getting laid right now, you can skip out in DND that week."

My favorite part of the internet is that this post, which basically hangs a big old 'no girls allowed in our dnd' rule ALA "Our Gang" and "Get Rid Of Slimy Girls" is going to be looked over so we can keep fighting about whether or not two letters will lead to woman losing the right to vote and spending all their time in the kitchen.

Which is going to SUCK because I'm a better cook than my girlfriend and she keeps trying to make me eat tofu.

Gnaeus
2010-04-05, 12:35 PM
if they are dating someone, then "if you have a girlfriend, you don't bring her to the comic book store period" subrule applies.

I would get beaten if I went to the comic book store without my wife. And not in a good way.

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 12:38 PM
My favorite part of the internet is that this post, which basically hangs a big old 'no girls allowed in our dnd' rule ALA "Our Gang" and "Get Rid Of Slimy Girls" is going to be looked over so we can keep fighting about whether or not two letters will lead to woman losing the right to vote and spending all their time in the kitchen.

It's their gaming group, it's their right to invite/forbid someone from playing, I don't see the problem.

Boci
2010-04-05, 12:41 PM
... yes, it is. One is based on fact, the other is a personal judgement.

Can you provide an example of a case of gender discrimination that would not have happened if he was used only for males?


It's their gaming group, it's their right to invite/forbid someone from playing, I don't see the problem.

The arrogance in assuming that if a gamer girl without a guy comes to their group she will fall for one of them? Or maybe the sheer sexist act of banning someone from the group because they are female.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-05, 12:41 PM
It's their gaming group, it's their right to invite/forbid someone from playing, I don't see the problem.

My point being, the He/She debate is going to spark more concern about gender equality than a flat-out "no girls allowed!" declaration.

Kish
2010-04-05, 12:43 PM
My point being, the He/She debate is going to spark more concern about gender equality than a flat-out "no girls allowed!" declaration.
Probably because R. Shackleford didn't try to claim said policy isn't sexist.

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 12:49 PM
Or maybe the sheer sexist act of banning someone from the group because they are female.

Girls play D&D differently than guys. I can understand that someone doesn't want certain types of players in their games.


My point being, the He/She debate is going to spark more concern about gender equality than a flat-out "no girls allowed!" declaration.

That debate doesn't really belong to this topic, though.

WarKitty
2010-04-05, 12:51 PM
I don't see why it would be. Anyways, those who hide their gender aside, just check any optimization thread and you'll see that it's usually mostly guys who don't hide their gender.

I guess rules crunching isn't really a girl thing.

Try playing a girl on an MMORPG - you'll get it pretty quickly. :smallwink:

Seriously, for the number of places I've had trouble...usually it starts with "OMG girl!" reaction. Followed by sexually explicit remarks. Upon turning these down, the reaction is frequently that you must really be a 30-year-old fat dude living in his mommy's basement stuffing himself with potato chips. Or just keep it up, which is also really annoying, since you went to the board to talk about gaming or whatever, not to get hit on by a bunch of random geeks.

Needless to say I often take on male personas when I'm online. :smallbiggrin:

Boci
2010-04-05, 12:53 PM
Girls play D&D differently than guys. I can understand that someone doesn't want certain types of players in their games.

You make it sound as if people are predictably. There is simply no way you can catagorize the way every person will play based on their gender.

Taelas
2010-04-05, 12:57 PM
Can you provide an example of a case of gender discrimination that would not have happened if he was used only for males?
You are arguing a strawman. I did not claim it was involved in any "case of gender discrimination". I said it reinforces a sexist world view, which is a fact. It implies one gender is superior to the other, regardless of the user's intentions.

If you wish to suggest otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.

Winter_Wolf
2010-04-05, 12:58 PM
The DM-player romantic involvement scenario is very much like the practice of hiring a friend to work in your employ. There have been a number of cases where it's worked out perfectly well. There have been a whole lot more cases where doing so has either destroyed the relationship or destroyed the business.

In a business, either the employee gets special treatment and other employees resent it, causing trouble, or the employee doesn't get special treatment and feels like the "friend" is being unfair, while utterly failing to realize that the BOSS must take care of the business first and foremost, for the good of both the business and all the people being employed. Now, I have been a business owner in the past (a very thankless job indeed), and my friends would practically beg me to take them on as employees. What they failed to understand, was that while we are equals as friends, it's MY business, and if I have a problem with the way the EMPLOYEE is doing things, I'll let it be known and probably sack that employee. I've also been employed be people who employ family members or close personal friends, and the boss was a sentimental type. The personal relationship meant that the trouble employee was constantly screwing around and making things difficult for the rest of us, with no disciplinary action.

The point of that long spiel about business: replace BOSS with DM and EMPLOYEE with friend/lover/spouse/other type of SO and you have pretty much exactly the same situation. I would certainly never want to game with my wife, because I know her too well. Even more, I would do without rather than play in a game with a DM/SO component because the point of the game for me is to RELAX and HAVE FUN, two things which I simply cannot accomplish when I'm waiting for the inevitable outcome.

Like I said, sometimes it works, but a lot more often, it doesn't, and I have enough drama in my life without adding others' to it.

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 12:59 PM
You make it sound as if people are predictably. There is simply no way you can catagorize the way every person will play based on their gender.

You're right, I can't. But MOSTLY that's the situation.

Boci
2010-04-05, 01:01 PM
You're right, I can't. But MOSTLY that's the situation.

So wouldn't a "We generally do not allow girls" be preferable to "We don't allow girls".


You are arguing a strawman. I did not claim it was involved in any "case of gender discrimination". I said it reinforces a sexist world view, which is a fact. It implies one gender is superior to the other, regardless of the user's intentions.

If you wish to suggest otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.

So it "reinforces a sexist world view", that has no negative impacts that can be shown, and you take an issue with people who aren't too bothered about it?

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 01:05 PM
So wouldn't a "We generally do not allow girls" be preferable to "We don't allow girls".

Maybe they tried enough times and every time it was a disappointment and they don't want to risk it anymore?

Boci
2010-04-05, 01:08 PM
Maybe they tried enough times and every time it was a disappointment and they don't want to risk it anymore?

Maybe, its it still sexist and I wouldn't play in such a group, but as you said, their group, their rules.

WarKitty
2010-04-05, 01:08 PM
So it "reinforces a sexist world view", that has no negative impacts that can be shown, and you take an issue with people who aren't too bothered about it?

One thing I would point out here: it's almost impossible to definitively show *anything* about how language affects thinking. You can't really construct a proper double-blind study, because that would require two groups of people who natively speak the same language with no differences except the one being studied.

That said there is research showing that male is frequently treated as the "default" gender, and that in many situations people perceived to have more feminine traits are often seen as less competent.

So no, it's not possible to prove negative impacts because you can't study language that way, but it is possible to argue for them nonetheless.

Taelas
2010-04-05, 01:09 PM
So it "reinforces a sexist world view", that has no negative impacts that can be shown, and you take an issue with people who aren't too bothered about it?

Sexism has plenty of negative influence that is readily shown. Whether or not this is a great influence on it is another matter altogether, but the fact is, even if the impact is negligible, it reinforces such a world view.

When did I say I took an issue with people who are not bothered by this?

Boci
2010-04-05, 01:12 PM
One thing I would point out here: it's almost impossible to definitively show *anything* about how language affects thinking. You can't really construct a proper double-blind study, because that would require two groups of people who natively speak the same language with no differences except the one being studied.

I understand that, I am just wondering if they have anything to back up their claims, because to me, saying that using "he" gender neutrally is sexist sounds like making a monutain out of a molehill.


That said there is research showing that male is frequently treated as the "default" gender, and that in many situations people perceived to have more feminine traits are often seen as less competent.

I believe this. And I believe it has nothing to do with the use of "he" as a gender neutral term.

Sexism has plenty of negative influence that is readily shown. Whether or not this is a great influence on it is another matter altogether, but the fact is, even if the impact is negligible, it reinforces such a world view.

When did I say I took an issue with people who are not bothered by this?

Someone said "Whats the big deal with using he gender neutrally?"
You said it "Its sexist. You may not care but I do,"

Sounds to me like you took issue with it.

Frosty
2010-04-05, 01:13 PM
Gorbash, when you've collected a large enough sample size of female roleplayers and have studied how their role-playing differs from those of a control group of male roleplayers, please let us know. I highly doubt your N is big enough for any sort of generalizations here. I've only RP'ed with a few girls irl, and I won'tmaking any general claims about how girls rp. All I can do it recount how those specific girls, who may or may not represent girl-dom as a while, play.

Fawkes
2010-04-05, 01:14 PM
If you wish to suggest otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.

Uh, pardon the interruption, but if you're trying to change someone else's behavior, the burden of proof is on you.

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 01:23 PM
Gorbash, when you've collected a large enough sample size of female roleplayers and have studied how their role-playing differs from those of a control group of male roleplayers, please let us know. I highly doubt your N is big enough for any sort of generalizations here. I've only RP'ed with a few girls irl, and I won'tmaking any general claims about how girls rp. All I can do it recount how those specific girls, who may or may not represent girl-dom as a while, play.

Note that I said they aren't serious about rules crunching, I never mentioned role-playing. I've seen girls who roleplay ok, and guys who don't roleplay at all, but I've never seen a girl intrested in rules beyond the basics, not to mention optimization. Neither IRL nor on these boards.

Taelas
2010-04-05, 01:23 PM
Someone said "Whats the big deal with using he gender neutrally?"
You said it "Its sexist. You may not care but I do,"

Sounds to me like you took issue with it.
I did not say I cared. I argued a point, that does not make it my position by default.


Uh, pardon the interruption, but if you're trying to change someone else's behavior, the burden of proof is on you.
I am not trying to "change someone else's behavior". I am stating a fact which I have given a logical reason for, and said if he wishes to dispute said facts, the burden of proof is on him to show how they are not correct.

Lamech
2010-04-05, 01:57 PM
I am stating a fact which I have given a logical reason for, and said if he wishes to dispute said facts, the burden of proof is on him to show how they are not correct.You have stated something as a fact that may or may not be a fact. You have logic, but it does not mean your logic is valid or your assumptions are correct. To show something like this one would want need to preform a study, and I doubt it would be that hard. Its very easy to make something sound reasonable and logical when it is in fact, totally incorrect.

To show something like your claiming one needs evidence, which one gets by doing experimental studies. And the burden of proof is on you. Your making the claim you need to show it, NOT the other way around.

Indon
2010-04-05, 02:11 PM
Our group runs two games. In general, 'no girls allowed' is an unspoken rule, because eventually they'll spark drama if they aren't already dating someone, and if they are dating someone, then "if you have a girlfriend, you don't bring her to the comic book store period" subrule applies.

The superule is: "If you could be getting laid right now, you can skip out in DND that week."

But our subculture totally isn't sexist, guys.


My favorite part of the internet is that this post, which basically hangs a big old 'no girls allowed in our dnd' rule ALA "Our Gang" and "Get Rid Of Slimy Girls" is going to be looked over...
Having seen your point, I went back and commented on it to prove you wrong.

On a more helpful note, some general guidelines on how to deal with people of the opposite gender in a mature and adult fashion:

-Don't ogle, fondle, or otherwise sexually harass members of the other gender. Plenty of examples in the horror stories on the thread.

-Treat people like people, with their own individual opinions, ideas, and preferences, rather than as members of a group which comes with these things predefined in your mind.
Example:

Girls play D&D differently than guys. I can understand that someone doesn't want certain types of players in their games.
Don't do that.

-Do not exercise quid pro quo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quid_pro_quo) behavior (favoritism falls under this, but this is not limited to favoritism). Unwarranted favors are unprofessional and disruptive.


Try playing a girl on an MMORPG - you'll get it pretty quickly. :smallwink:
I run a guild in an MMORPG and it's a task to keep this kind of disruptive "pix or GTFO" behavior down.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-05, 02:19 PM
Having seen your point, I went back and commented on it to prove you wrong.


For a second, I thought I was in trouble and that you were arguing with me for some reason. I'm still confused. I intended to be proved wrong. And you're proving me wrong. But the arrogant jerk part of me doesn't want to be proved wrong. Even though I do.

Oh goddammit.

BRC
2010-04-05, 03:08 PM
Girls play D&D differently than guys. I can understand that someone doesn't want certain types of players in their games.

I'm currently DMing a group consisting of 2 girls and 2 guys. The female players do play differently than the male players. Then again, they also play differently from each other, and the male players play differently than each other.

In fact, I might as well say that No Two players are exactly the same. Differences between genders have nothing on differences between individuals.

I'm sorry, R Shackleford, but you are what's wrong with geek culture. I love your assumption that "Eventually they'll spark drama if they're not dating somebody", The assumption that women exist solely as romantic partners. I'm sorry, but Cooties have been cured, if you're unable to handle the opposite sex in a mature manner, I think that's your problem.

Solaris
2010-04-05, 03:12 PM
Let's take this argument about gender pronouns to another thread, shall we?

Fawkes
2010-04-05, 03:19 PM
I'm sorry, R Shackleford, but you are what's wrong with geek culture. I love your assumption that "Eventually they'll spark drama if they're not dating somebody", The assumption that women exist solely as romantic partners. I'm sorry, but Cooties have been cured, if you're unable to handle the opposite sex in a mature manner, I think that's your problem.

Yeah, if having a girl in the group leads to drama when two guys are fighting over her or whatever, that's really not her fault.

Gnaeus
2010-04-05, 03:24 PM
Lets not be too harsh on R. Shackleford. I mean, I don't agree with his group's rule and I certainly don't think that gender stereotypes will universally apply to girl gamers. But having seen a large number of them in play I feel that I could come up with a gaming profile that is more likely to apply to female gamers than to male ones (although there would certainly be crossovers).

I mean, gamers are people, who come from society, and society treats genders differently. The female president of MIT may be able to conclusively prove that women can do math as well as men, but if the school systems treat children differently (and they do), you may wind up with a male population that has been more encouraged towards number crunching. As the parent of 2 little girls, I can tell you that the societal marketing aimed at them to play dress-up and be pretty is everywhere. To say that we have not trained sexes to behave in certain ways or that these behaviors will not influence how they act in the gaming community is sticking your head in the sand.

To adapt a quote from Avenue Q (Everyone's a little bit Racist) "sexist jokes may be uncouth, but we laugh, because they're based on truth".

UndeadCleric
2010-04-05, 03:51 PM
And it took me about two read-throughs of the core books to learn how to play the game, another couple of months to get a thorough understanding of it. When I taught my buddies, it took them about a single session to go from having never gamed before in their lives to being able to make a half-decent character and play without asking questions more than once or twice an hour. Some cats might need longer, but just how valuable is that game time?

I know a few people, including myself who picked who were "able to make a half-decent character and play without asking questions more than once or twice an hour" within 3 or 4 sessions. Learning to make a excellent character took around 6 weeks.

DarkEternal
2010-04-05, 04:05 PM
I am a DM in with my circle of friends and my girlfriend did express some sort of an interest in the game(though of course, it was really nothing more but curiosity), but I told her flat out that she couldn't play. It wouldn't work. In my game at the very least, you people seem to have some good experiences, but I know that nothing good would have turned out from this experience.

Kylarra
2010-04-05, 04:08 PM
Our 4e DM is married to one of the other players. It seems to work out okay.

Sholos
2010-04-05, 04:19 PM
Note that I said they aren't serious about rules crunching, I never mentioned role-playing. I've seen girls who roleplay ok, and guys who don't roleplay at all, but I've never seen a girl intrested in rules beyond the basics, not to mention optimization. Neither IRL nor on these boards.

It's got to just be your area, then. The girl playing in my group is probably the most bloodthirsty of my players, and the one that delights the most in dealing out tons of damage. She's also the tank of the party.

Then again, she's also a programmer...

Altima
2010-04-05, 04:22 PM
Yeah, if having a girl in the group leads to drama when two guys are fighting over her or whatever, that's really not her fault.

Unless it's done in character, which can lead to glorious, glorious roleplay.

Of course, I've had groups where two guys fight over a third guy's female character (and a dwarf, to boot), and another with two male-playing women fighting over girl-playing guy in a hilariously stereotypical fashion.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-05, 04:26 PM
It's got to just be your area, then. The girl playing in my group is probably the most bloodthirsty of my players, and the one that delights the most in dealing out tons of damage. She's also the tank of the party.

Then again, she's also a programmer...

Sounds like the one in my group, minus the programming. Her and her boyfriend are both players, and she's way more aggressive. Also a Crusader (and the party's only healer) to his blasty sorcerer.

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 04:33 PM
It's got to just be your area, then. The girl playing in my group is probably the most bloodthirsty of my players, and the one that delights the most in dealing out tons of damage. She's also the tank of the party.


What does bloodthirstiness has to do with rules crunching and optimization? :smallconfused:

Malificus
2010-04-05, 04:41 PM
What does bloodthirstiness has to do with rules crunching and optimization? :smallconfused:

HULK VERY GOOD AT BREAKING GAME :hulkface:

Kylarra
2010-04-05, 04:49 PM
Well... my 4e DM's wife is also in our Scion game and her character is the [second] most optimized for delivering pain to a target. Her main downfall is that stunting with her sniper rifle is really really hard.

I think it mostly depends on how into the game the person is. That'll bring a corresponding interest in the rules and their character. We had this other girl and guy who had pretty well built characters, but since they weren't into them, tended to just fade into the bg or do basic attacks, which isn't terribly interesting in a Scion game. The girl ended up leaving the group and the guy ended up martyring himself so he could play something he liked better.

pffh
2010-04-05, 04:51 PM
Girls play D&D differently than guys. I can understand that someone doesn't want certain types of players in their games.


No they don't I've only played with a total of four girls (played with two dm'ed for two) and they game just like guys.

Girl 1: Drow sorcerer that squeeled with glee when she betrayed someone.
Girl 2: Not really interested in learning the rules preferred the rp
Girl 3: Favorite character of hers was a huge ogre barbarian that smashed stuff
Girl 4: The optimizer of the group, learned the rules in a couple of sessions and usually made powerful characters but also roleplayed very well.

I can make an almost identical list for 4 guys I've gamed with.

Sholos
2010-04-05, 05:07 PM
What does bloodthirstiness has to do with rules crunching and optimization? :smallconfused:

Rules crunching and optimization leads to better bloodletting.

Regardless, what you said is simply not true in the large picture. There are guys who "play like girls" and girls who "play like guys", which of course makes both of those statements meaningless.

Gnaeus
2010-04-05, 05:12 PM
No they don't I've only played with a total of four girls (played with two dm'ed for two) and they game just like guys.

Yes. They do.

There is no gaming behavior pattern that you can find in guys that you can't find in girls or vice versa.

But

If you took a group of 100 gamers of each sex and compared them, you would find certain behaviors to be more prevalent in either gender.

Why is the description of how the girl in Gamers, Dorkness Rising differs from her male counterparts funny? Because it is based on things that are observable in play.

Why do people call the healer the "DM Girlfriend" class (I just want to heal people and ride on a unicorn!)? Because some people live up to that stereotype. It happens. I have seen it. Not all. But enough to perpetuate the image.

Kylarra
2010-04-05, 05:16 PM
Yes. They do.

There is no gaming behavior pattern that you can find in guys that you can't find in girls or vice versa.

But

If you took a group of 100 gamers of each sex and compared them, you would find certain behaviors to be more prevalent in either gender.

Why is the description of how the girl in Gamers, Dorkness Rising differs from her male counterparts funny? Because it is based on things that are observable in play.

Why do people call the healer the "DM Girlfriend" class (I just want to heal people and ride on a unicorn!)? Because some people live up to that stereotype. It happens. I have seen it. Not all. But enough to perpetuate the image.Of course, the ironic thing about that citation of Dorkness Rising is that Joanna's character is probably the closest thing they've got to an optimized character, at least as far as individual prowess is shown in the movie.

kc0bbq
2010-04-05, 06:03 PM
Of course, the ironic thing about that citation of Dorkness Rising is that Joanna's character is probably the closest thing they've got to an optimized character, at least as far as individual prowess is shown in the movie.That's what makes the character not utterly stupid within the context of the thing.

But stereotypes (even negative ones) have some basis in truth, or they wouldn't exist as stereotypes.

Gorbash
2010-04-05, 06:07 PM
Rules crunching and optimization leads to better bloodletting.

Yeah well, I can't really take his word for it, I'd have to first see that build that's good as a tank and at damage dealing and then decide whether it's good optimizing or not. :smalltongue: