Tell me about liches, bitches! ;)

[amanojaku]

Ok, the title's mostly a joke, so no I'm not calling anyone a bitch. Just couldn't resist the rhyme, y'know?:smallbiggrin:

Assuming I'm not into D&D and don't know more about liches than they're a way a powerful magic user cheats death by dinging his soul to his dead body and what I hear here, what are their weaknesses? It seems like they've got all advantages and no disadvantages.

(I'd have made them vulnerable to extreme cold as it might embrittle and shatter their bones, but apparently liches are immune to that for some reason I don't peep. Likewise a good sonic attack ought to shatter their bones since there's no flesh around them to serve as a vibration damper.)

It just seems that liches have a lot of advantages so either they have some serious disadvantages or they're unbalanced. BTW, can a PC be a liche?

Everyone seems to go on about how xykon is immune to this, that and everything else as a liche, so what does D&D have liches as being vulnerable to?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Yes, PCs can be liches. No they aren't that unbalanced, because they have 'Level Adjustment', essentially levels without gaining any levels. Although they are a pain to kill.

Any d20 srd can tell you what liches are immune to. I'd list it, but I'm too tired... I'd say d20srd.org if you need a site.

[Shpadoinkle]

The biggest drawback of being a lich is that you can't taste coffee (or anything else) anymore.


Yes, PCs can be liches. No they aren't that unbalanced, because they have 'Level Adjustment', essentially levels without gaining any levels. Although they are a pain to kill.

Also, yeah. Liches have a LA of something like 8. That is, they're counted as being 8 levels higher than they really are, without gaining any of the regular benefits. Instead, you trade these in for immortality (but not indestructability) and invulnerability to a LOT of things, as well as becoming highly resistant to magic.

Being counted as being 8 levels higher than you really are sounds nice, but it's actually bad. Imagine you took a first grader and counted him as being eight years ahead of where he really is in his studies. There's SO much stuff he's not prepared to deal with it's not even funny. Levels work kind of the same way.

To give you some perspective, anything beyond level 20 is 'epic,' and by that point you're basically getting into the realm of the gods and godlike beings. An LA of 8 is massive.

[Kish]

Liches aren't meant to be played. They're meant to be used pretty much the same way they are in OotS: Big-time villains are liches. That being the case, yes, Xykon lost very little in terms of mechanics upon becoming a lich, because it's not meant to be something anyone who isn't a villain (which, in most games, means an NPC) would ever consider doing.

[Zevox]

Also, yeah. Liches have a LA of something like 8. That is, they're counted as being 8 levels higher than they really are, without gaining any of the regular benefits.
+4, actually. Which is still pretty big.

But yeah, most templates, such as a Lich, grant only benefits, no drawbacks, save only for the level adjustment. Liches gain increased intelligence, wisdom, and charisma, a ton of immunities (cold, electricity, mind-affecting abilities, plus all the standard undead immunities like poison and critical hits), a fear aura, a paralyzing touch, a natural armor bonus, automatic d12 HD, and a lot more. The only thing like a drawback is that they lose their constitution score, which negatively impacts their HP and fortitude saves. However, the d12 HD and immunity to any fortitude save effects that don't also affect objects mostly cover that downside.

Oh, and it is also an expensive transformation (120,000 gp worth of materials and 4,800 xp to create the phylactery).

Zevox

[Moriarty]

(I'd have made them vulnerable to extreme cold as it might embrittle and shatter their bones, but apparently liches are immune to that for some reason I don't peep.

I don't quite get your logic, any cold extreme enough to make the bones able to be shattered would do the same to flesh. Except flesh begins to hurt a lot sooner than bones.

You could argue that a lich is imune to cold because his magic resistances reduce the impact of cold spells to a level at which the temperatures needed to completely freeze bones can't be reached anymore.

[Morthis]

There's a lot of races that have a lot of goodies and no downsides. They are (supposed to be) balanced by adding a level adjustment. Basically, if you're just a normal race without LA (like a human) and you're a level 10 wizard, as lich (LA 4) you'd be a level 6 wizard. Your effective level still counts as 10 though. Short of some specific builds, it's almost never considered worth it because class levels tend to pay off more, especially for casters.

[amanojaku]

I don't quite get your logic, any cold extreme enough to make the bones able to be shattered would do the same to flesh. Except flesh begins to hurt a lot sooner than bones.

You could argue that a lich is imune to cold because his magic resistances reduce the impact of cold spells to a level at which the temperatures needed to completely freeze bones can't be reached anymore.

Would magical resistance reduce the vulnerability to cold? If the cold itself was inherently magic maybe. If a magic effect produces cold indirectly maybe not.

[Vemynal]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

They also have a weakness to Bludgeoning and magic (enchantments from weapons)

I'd also point out that no character below level 12 can take on this template (though I don't remember why exactly, I think it was something to do with the gold or xp cost)

so your character is say 12, lets say everyone else in the party is level 13 to 14. You take on this template and become level 16. Your 2 to 3 levels higher then then rest of your party. Not because you can use more powerful spells but because you can't take an incredibly high amount of damage compared to others.

Problem is even if you all eventually reach level 20 (which due to the way exp is given out they would catch up with you) your still casting spells as only a level 16 caster.

This is why a lot of people will only take on this template when they are already level 20

[Studoku]

They also have a weakness to Bludgeoning and magic (enchantments from weapons)
It's not really a weakness. It's more a case of magic bludgeons are the only thing that can harm them.

[Vemynal]

heh yeah, DR 15 is pretty intense!

Curious how Roy is gonna get round it XD

[Captainocaptain]

Maybe he has a disrupting weapon? or Baneful against undead?
Come to think of it, what does the enchantment on his sword most likely do? (aside from being a +5 weapon)

[Starscream]

heh yeah, DR 15 is pretty intense!

Curious how Roy is gonna get round it XD

Eh, by mid to high levels a well built fighter is going to be doing damage in the triple digits.

Not that we have any reason to believe the characters are particularly optimized (a single classed fighter, a evocation wizard, a ranger who can't cast spells, and...Elan). The only ones who seem to be well built are Haley and Durkon. I was going to point out that Haley doesn't carry a melee weapon, which limits her flanking abilities, but now she has Crystal's dagger. And while Durkon is often used as a Healbot, he has also shown the ability to CoDzilla when he wants to.

Of course, The Giant has made it perfectly clear that story and jokes are much more important than mechanics (as they should be). So I imagine they'll do exactly as well as they need to in order to get the job done.

[Rutskarn]

If you're having lore problems I feel bad for you son, I've got 99 problems but a lich ain't one. I stole this.

[Shpadoinkle]

heh yeah, DR 15 is pretty intense!

Curious how Roy is gonna get round it XD

Remember the starmetal he got his sword reforged with occasionally triggers an anti-undead effect. What exatly this is has never really been expanded on, as far as I can recall, but it'll pobably at least make up for Xykon's 15 DR against slashing.

[Draconi Redfir]

if all else fails he could melt down his sword, and incase that greatclub he had earlier in the metal.

[Mystic Muse]

Remember the starmetal he got his sword reforged with occasionally triggers an anti-undead effect. What exatly this is has never really been expanded on, as far as I can recall, but it'll pobably at least make up for Xykon's 15 DR against slashing.

we're not sure what the starmetal does exactly. It might bypass his DR, it might dispel the Phylacteries defenses or it might turn Xykon into a frog.

oh wait, fighter.:smalltongue: (that and Liches are immune to Polymorph abilities except their own anyway)

[Magicyop]

we're not sure what the starmetal does exactly. It might bypass his DR, it might dispel the Phylacteries defenses or it might turn Xykon into a frog.

oh wait, fighter.:smalltongue: (that and Liches are immune to Polymorph abilities except their own anyway)

It doesn't turn him into a frog. Roy used it several times before, once when he was fighting Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html), Though I'm not sure that the green energy really did that much, it's clear that starmetal is good against fiends as well as undead. He used it the second time against the zombie dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), where it appeared to hurt the dragon. The most probably explanation here is that it bypasses the dragon's DR, or maybe does some sort of extra damage. It can't be positive energy, however, because the third time is when he went after Xykon himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) and seemed to again, do some damage. But it doesn't instantly destroy Xykon, he has to hit Xykon multiple times with it, and Xykon isn't even defending himself, and at the end, he doesn't seem all THAT hurt. So the starmetal is not some instant kill of liches. My best guess is that it simply bypasses the damage resistance.

[factotum]

I doubt it completely bypassed the DR. Roy hit Xykon at least 5 times with the green glow active (once in #434, four times in #442--the last stroke appeared to miss), yet the damage he did to Xykon was low enough that Tsukiko could heal it with Inflict Critical Wounds, which heals a maximum of 52 points (and that assumes Tsukiko is level 20 and she rolled maximums on 4d8, which is unlikely--a more reasonable estimate would be 28 hit points). Five hits with a +5 Greatsword bypassing Xykon's DR entirely would likely do a lot more damage than that!

[ThePhantasm]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been shut down just because of the title. Even if it is a joke, I thought that sort of language wasn't allowed around these parts.

[sneakattak]

If liches are dead, how are they living? Do they have a magic power crystal inside them or something. It just doesn't add up. They don't even have organs or a brain so how do they think. With no organs how do they breathe?! It doesn't add up I tell you!

[Eloel]

If liches are dead, how are they living? Do they have a magic power crystal inside them or something. It just doesn't add up. They don't even have organs or a brain so how do they think. With no organs how do they breathe?! It doesn't add up I tell you!

A wizard did it.

[sneakattak]

oh that makes sense.

[Kish]

A cleric, actually.

[sneakattak]

It was a necromancer actually.

[Kish]

Redcloak isn't a necromancer.

[sneakattak]

I know he's a cleric. I'm just saying necromancers practice dark arts and bringing someone back from the dead in some type of evil form is .

[Conuly]

The biggest drawback of being a lich is that you can't taste coffee (or anything else) anymore.

That, and you lose all your little fleshy dingle dangle bits. Xykon didn't mind, sure, but if he'd been in his 20s? He might've objected more strongly.

[Dvil]

Magic fingers.

[Tyrion L.]

Well, liches, though they tend to differ in appearance, in almost every series they've been in, die when their phylactery is destroyed. (Or, in some cases, revert to mortal form, and then become easy to kill, but that doesn't make sense.) I'd call that a pretty big drawback.

-Tyrion Lannister

[The Succubus]

If you're having lore problems I feel bad for you son, I've got 99 problems but a lich ain't one. I stole this.

:smallbiggrin: Do I hear the title of the final book?

[DeltaEmil]

Well, liches, though they tend to differ in appearance, in almost every series they've been in, die when their phylactery is destroyed. (Or, in some cases, revert to mortal form, and then become easy to kill, but that doesn't make sense.) I'd call that a pretty big drawbackWhere does it state that liches are destroyed when their phylactery is shattered into pieces? In most cases, you need to destroy the lich first, because he's going to guard his phylactery in some way.
And transforming back into a human? That's also completely new.

[Tyrion L.]

Where does it state that liches are destroyed when their phylactery is shattered into pieces? In most cases, you need to destroy the lich first, because he's going to guard his phylactery in some way.
And transforming back into a human? That's also completely new.

Eh, it was from World of Warcraft, it made no sense. There was a boss lich who, for a quest, you could destroy the phylactery of. It somehow turned him into a human, then he was...exactly the same. Same spells, same HP, same whatever. It was kind of stupid.

-Tyrion Lannister

Edit: And I looked at the monster manual, and, apparently, it does not say what happens if you destroy the phylactery first. I'm guessing it's DM's choice, if that scenario even happens.

[Morthis]

Either way, I wouldn't call it a weakness, even if the lich dies when the phylactery is destroyed. If you carry it on your person, well then it's no different from any normal human being, if your body is destroyed you're screwed. Except here you have the alternative of hiding the phylactery somewhere, and then doing something risky without any chance of actually dying.

[Kish]

Eh, it was from World of Warcraft, it made no sense. There was a boss lich who, for a quest, you could destroy the phylactery of. It somehow turned him into a human, then he was...exactly the same. Same spells, same HP, same whatever. It was kind of stupid.


You mean Ras Frostwhisper? Or Inigo? Or are you thinking of a boss I never met?

Ras, you have a quest chain to turn back into human because then he'll stay dead when he's killed. It involves a Keepsake of Remembrance, not his phylactery.

Inigo, you steal and destroy the phylactery of, but I'm pretty sure he remains a lich afterwards.

[Zevox]

Well, liches, though they tend to differ in appearance, in almost every series they've been in, die when their phylactery is destroyed. (Or, in some cases, revert to mortal form, and then become easy to kill, but that doesn't make sense.) I'd call that a pretty big drawback.

-Tyrion Lannister
Don't know what series you're thinking of, but D&D doesn't work that way. Destroy a Lich's phylactery in D&D and all you've done is ensure that destroying his body will kill him. The phylactery is a repository for his soul for occasions when his body is destroyed, nothing more.

Zevox

[Decoy Lockbox]

Don't know what series you're thinking of, but D&D doesn't work that way. Destroy a Lich's phylactery in D&D and all you've done is ensure that destroying his body will kill him. The phylactery is a repository for his soul for occasions when his body is destroyed, nothing more.

Zevox

Exactly. If you destroy the phylactery, you now are in a race against time to off the lich before he makes another phylactery.

In my days playing 3.x, I had the pleasure of icing a lich or two. In my experience, if the DM is deciding to not go nuts (i.e. "play a spellcaster to it's full ability), disintegrate is the spell of choice for killing liches. As undead, they have no constitution score, and as arcane spellcasters they have a very poor base fortitude save. This was of course much more effective in 3.0, before disintegrate became a direct damage spell.

Of course, if the lich is actually being played intelligently and has his buffs up (ray deflection, naturally), then another plan is probably in order :smallbiggrin:

[Blue Ghost]

Exactly. If you destroy the phylactery, you now are in a race against time to off the lich before he makes another phylactery.



Are you sure? I don't remember reading anything about liches being able to replace their phylacteries.

[Thanatosia]

Are you sure? I don't remember reading anything about liches being able to replace their phylacteries.
I believe this is one of those gray areas the official rules never clearly define, but some unofficial supliments (Libram Mortis?) flesh out.

[Red XIV]

Are you sure? I don't remember reading anything about liches being able to replace their phylacteries.
I guess that would be at the DM's discretion.

[Vemynal]

of course half the point to being a lich is to become a demilich:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

which let me squash now: I highly doubt xykon will ever become a demilich

[Optimystik]

If you're having lore problems I feel bad for you son, I've got 99 problems but a lich ain't one. I stole this.

Even so, thank you for reposting it :smallbiggrin:


I believe this is one of those gray areas the official rules never clearly define, but some unofficial supliments (Libram Mortis?) flesh out.

Libris Mortis is very much official (WotC seal and everything.) The only question is whether the Giant is using it.

Given Xykon's panic and concern over his phylactery, I'd guess the Giant isn't opposing the whole "only one phylactery, ever" rule.

[factotum]

Even if he CAN make another one, it took three months to turn him into a lich in the first place; presumably it would take a similar length of time to craft a new phylactery, and all the time that's being done Xykon is vulnerable. Given his talk about avoiding the Fires Below to V, I think being vulnerable to ending up in Hell is something Xykon wants to avoid rather badly!

[Kareasint]

Replacing a Phylactery is an expensive affair and the Lich will be tied to one place for time it takes to make it. Xykon can probably replace it. However, I believe that the first one has to be destroyed first. Xykon is still tied to it.

[2xMachina]

Even so, thank you for reposting it :smallbiggrin:



Libris Mortis is very much official (WotC seal and everything.) The only question is whether the Giant is using it.

Given Xykon's panic and concern over his phylactery, I'd guess the Giant isn't opposing the whole "only one phylactery, ever" rule.

Or he just doesn't know.

Redcloak was the one who researched it anyway.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been shut down just because of the title. Even if it is a joke, I thought that sort of language wasn't allowed around these parts.
Guess you thought wrong. If it wasn't allowed, it'd be blocked by the (already over-sensitive) profanity filter, wouldn't it?

And come on, there's a winky-face in the title and the OP even directly says that he meant no offence by it. I really don't see the problem.

[Ancalagon]

I find it hard to believe the strongest "disadvantage" of being a lich has not even been mentioned.

Becoming a lich is utterly and totally evil. You don't just "transform" into a lich... becoming one is one of the most evil deeds any living being can do.

It's simply "wrong" in regard to everything that is "meant to be".

That said, it's something that only a villian should be OR a very evil character whose point is only about being a very, very, very evil undead abomination (which means it's only going to work in very special and quite few campaigns).

OotS plays the level of evilness and utter inhumanity (!) of being a lich quite right and to the point.

[The Succubus]

of course half the point to being a lich is to become a demilich:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

which let me squash now: I highly doubt xykon will ever become a demilich

Hmmm....I agree its doubtful but it's not beyond the realms of probability. After all:

Following the events of SoD, he already has two souls trapped in a black gem - Xykon may well decide to add more to this collection.

[Ancalagon]

which let me squash now: I highly doubt xykon will ever become a demilich

Why? Demi-Lich is the epic version of a lich. It's probably not for "epic = low 20s" but Xykon is in his high 20s or even early 30s. Also, it'd give him even more Power than he has now. There's no point for him not to do it.

The only thing that prevents him from doing that change is simply the question: Does he even know it's possible (which again is probably purely based on if Rich wants to keep on drawing Xykon with his body or not).

[Vemynal]

here is why i said the above: Because as you mentioned Xykon is already in his upper 20's. The order is goign to need to be close to level 20 when they finally try to kill him to have any chance short of dues ex machina, so while I believe the order will defeat him eventually i also find it likely that durkon and V have at least 8th level spells if not possibly 9th as well when the Order takes him on.

Making Xykon a Demilich? (never understood the name by the way, the Demi part makes it sound weaker in my mind) would mean the Order would have to be level 22/23ish when they all finally confronted him, if not possibly higher

since everyone in the last 711 strips has gone up basically 4 to 6 levels (thank you geekery) I doubt that the Giant is going to be taking the Order into epic levels

It may become a plot point of Xykon trying to become one, but actually becoming one? doubt it

[2xMachina]

demi-
prefix
1. half demirelief Compare hemi-, semi- [1]
2. of less than full size, status, or rank demigod

It's part of a lich. Just the most important part.


They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich.

Still 1 phylactery to destroy. The soul gems are destroyed with the demilich.

[Ancalagon]

here is why i said the above: Because as you mentioned Xykon is already in his upper 20's. The order is goign to need to be close to level 20 when they finally try to kill him to have any chance short of dues ex machina, so while I believe the order will defeat him eventually i also find it likely that durkon and V have at least 8th level spells if not possibly 9th as well when the Order takes him on.

The order is already heavily outgunned. If it comes to a direct confrontation and Xykon goes into it taking it serious, he's blasting the order to bits. Even without the "demi".

I guess the story will be much more complex than "charge into the battle" - which is what player groups usually do. Even a prepared group is never going to pull something as elaborate and complex as we'll see in this story. Therefore, the level- and power-gap does not matter as much as it would matter in an actual game.

Without proper preparation and a good plan the order already has no chance at all vs. Xykon. And even with proper preparation a "plain fight" is probably not going to do the trick.

Point is: The demi lich would not change that much. The order would be "heavily outgunned" - something they already are. Whatever will give them the win... it won't be "dice".

[Vemynal]

eh we can agree to disagree then

[Optimystik]

Or he just doesn't know.

Redcloak was the one who researched it anyway.

Whatever he didn't know about lichification before being made one, he seems to have learned a few things once the process was complete. After all, he knew that destroying his phylactery wouldn't do anything as long as his body was intact, something that even Redcloak didn't know.

[2xMachina]

Whatever he didn't know about lichification before being made one, he seems to have learned a few things once the process was complete. After all, he knew that destroying his phylactery wouldn't do anything as long as his body was intact, something that even Redcloak didn't know.

I read it as

Redcloak knowing it too.

But yeah, I give that Xykon learned more about liches since Lichdome.

[Ancalagon]

But yeah, I give that Xykon learned more about liches since Lichdome.

Actually, he seems to have gotten much, much more clueful since then in many regards. It's like he had saved most of his skillpoints until the end of SoD (level 20+) and then spent it all at once on nice skills that give him "clue".

And what's even more dangerous is that Xykon seems to have started to actully actively start to "care" about things that can give him more power.

He instantly knew what a soul splice was and it can be assumed, given that soul splices seem to be not-well-known magical states, that Xykon also knows about many other more or less known magical states.
That Xykon knows about soul splices but not about demi-lichification seems to be a bit unlikely.

[Optimystik]

I read it as

Redcloak knowing it too.

Redcloak couldn't have known that phylacteries don't work that way, or else he wouldn't have tried to use Xykon's as leverage over him.

"Let him go," he said in the diner, "or I'll destroy the phylactery."

[amanojaku]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been shut down just because of the title. Even if it is a joke, I thought that sort of language wasn't allowed around these parts.

The word "bitch" has been used in the comic so it's fair game on the forums.

[Yuki Akuma]

Redcloak couldn't have known that phylacteries don't work that way, or else he wouldn't have tried to use Xykon's as leverage over him.

"Let him go," he said in the diner, "or I'll destroy the phylactery."

Alternatively, he was banking on Xykon not knowing how phylacteries work even though Redcloak knew perfectly well.

He was banking on Xykon backing down.

[Zevox]

Redcloak couldn't have known that phylacteries don't work that way, or else he wouldn't have tried to use Xykon's as leverage over him.

"Let him go," he said in the diner, "or I'll destroy the phylactery."
Sure he could have. He was expecting Xykon to be willing to back down due to the phylactery's importance - either because he wasn't expecting Xykon to fully understand how it works, or because he wasn't expecting Xykon to be willing to lose his phylactery if it meant remaining free of Redcloak's influence.
Zevox

[TheWerdna]

Even so, thank you for reposting it :smallbiggrin:



Libris Mortis is very much official (WotC seal and everything.) The only question is whether the Giant is using it.

Given Xykon's panic and concern over his phylactery, I'd guess the Giant isn't opposing the whole "only one phylactery, ever" rule.

The main thing is that any rule can be changed by the DM. In a campaign the DM has the ultimate authority, which is something most people forget. So even if a book says something cannot be done, the DM can change it.

[Ozymandias9]

The main thing is that any rule can be changed by the DM. In a campaign the DM has the ultimate authority, which is something most people forget. So even if a book says something cannot be done, the DM can change it.

I don't think anyone's forgetting that, they're just trying to puzzle out what is happening relative to the topic in this case. And published material is a good place to start.

[Morthis]

Redcloak couldn't have known that phylacteries don't work that way, or else he wouldn't have tried to use Xykon's as leverage over him.

"Let him go," he said in the diner, "or I'll destroy the phylactery."

When I first read it, I saw it was a threat to weaken him, not destroy him. Keep in mind that the human Xykon did not appear anywhere near as ruthless as the lich one. He was still evil, but the really evil stuff started when he became a Lich. During the original battle for the gate, for example, Xykon was acting in a rather friendly manner ("Hey RC, I saved you a druid"), and when RC confronted him about the goblins being killed, he simply joked a little about it. Basically, he treated RC as an equal in terms of who is in charge, not one of his minions. The lich Xykon would have treated RC like a minion, told him to shut it and animate those goblins as zombies.

So it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable for RC to believe that simply the threat of losing the phylactery would have been enough for pre-lich Xykon to step back in line. It's just that Xykon changed a lot more than expected with the lichification, and RC realized he made a terrible mistake (the scene with Xykon and zombie Lirian walking away from the diner pretty much says it all).

[amanojaku]

I don't know if a phylactery can be replaced, but knowing xykon his was made of super strong metals and had a load of enchantments on it that would be a major bitch to replace, so RC bet he'd hate to have to replace it even if it could be.

Judging from the look of horror on xykon's skull as it was falling towards the rift I'd doubt it could be replaced.

[Morthis]

I don't know if a phylactery can be replaced, but knowing xykon his was made of super strong metals and had a load of enchantments on it that would be a major bitch to replace, so RC bet he'd hate to have to replace it even if it could be.

Judging from the look of horror on xykon's skull as it was falling towards the rift I'd doubt it could be replaced.

No, it wasn't, SoD addresses this.

Minor SoD spoiler
Xykon knew very little about becoming a Lich, it was RC who did all the research, and RC who suggested it be made of his holy symbol. Even if it wasn't for that, they were in a pretty restricted situation and would not have had free choice of materials.

[factotum]

Alternatively, he was banking on Xykon not knowing how phylacteries work even though Redcloak knew perfectly well.

He was banking on Xykon backing down.


Or, perhaps Redcloak DID think destroying the phylactery would destroy Xykon, but Xykon knew better because he instinctively knew where his soul was at the time.

[Sholos]

Or, perhaps Redcloak DID think destroying the phylactery would destroy Xykon, but Xykon knew better because he instinctively knew where his soul was at the time.


I'm gonna make a crazy guess that the guy who knew how the ritual worked, being the same guy who probably has ranks in Knowledge: Religion out the wazoo, knows how phylacteries work and was simply trying to bluff Xykon. That makes far more sense than a high level cleric, who has created a lich, not knowing.

[Optimystik]

The main thing is that any rule can be changed by the DM. In a campaign the DM has the ultimate authority, which is something most people forget. So even if a book says something cannot be done, the DM can change it.

That goes without saying.
Until the Giant comes on record and says "In my world, this is how it works" or demonstrates such via the characters, then for us to toss out the books is premature.


I'm gonna make a crazy guess that the guy who knew how the ritual worked, being the same guy who probably has ranks in Knowledge: Religion out the wazoo, knows how phylacteries work and was simply trying to bluff Xykon. That makes far more sense than a high level cleric, who has created a lich, not knowing.

Knowing how to make a lich doesn't automatically give you more experience with being one than the guy who actually became one.

Don't get me wrong, I can see how Redcloak might have been trying to bluff there, but I'm still in favor of "can't be replaced" given Xykon's extremely protective attitude toward the item. Besides, making it replaceable is just one more complication the Order doesn't need, with the odds already stacked against them.

[Gandariel]

whoaaa a GREAT idea came in my mind thinking about Level Adjustments and strip 581 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html)



SPOILER (still don't understand how to spoiler something...)

the Order is about lvl 14 now...
Xykon becomes a Demi-Lich and, automatically, the order gets 6 levels, thus becoming epic.
it would be a veery lame joke, and it wouldn't solve the "kill the uber-powerful abomination" problem, but i think it would be neat, and it would be a good story advancement.

i already pictured it: after Xykon becomes a demi lich, we see a POOF!
the order gets new armor and items and a big glowing power around them.
while everybody is happy about this, Haley comments about the fact that she's not actually received all of her Wealth By Level, and a bunch of gold coins rain on her.

the next 6 strips would be about each character trying their new powers. (i'd LOVE to see what would Elan do)

[Optimystik]

SPOILER (still don't understand how to spoiler something...)

Like this


the Order is about lvl 14 now...
Xykon becomes a Demi-Lich and, automatically, the order gets 6 levels, thus becoming epic.
it would be a veery lame joke, and it wouldn't solve the "kill the uber-powerful abomination" problem, but i think it would be neat, and it would be a good story advancement.

Also known as the 8-Bit Theater method?
I disagree, I think the Order achieving Epic would kill all the dramatic tension, demilich or no demilich.

[Gandariel]

Also known as the 8-Bit Theater method?
I disagree, I think the Order achieving Epic would kill all the dramatic tension, demilich or no demilich.

but it would set all things for a good final battle...
AND btw, there could be a veeery interesting intrusion of a powered-up Linear Guild :D

[Ancalagon]

the Order is about lvl 14 now...
Xykon becomes a Demi-Lich and, automatically, the order gets 6 levels, thus becoming epic.
it would be a veery lame joke, and it wouldn't solve the "kill the uber-powerful abomination" problem, but i think it would be neat, and it would be a good story advancement

It would suck. Bigtime.

Also, it would not make any sense at all.

And it would suck. Bigtime. Really. It'd kill all the good storytelling up until that point. Instantly.

Why should the order get those levels anyway?

[ThePhantasm]

the Order is about lvl 14 now...
Xykon becomes a Demi-Lich and, automatically, the order gets 6 levels, thus becoming epic.
it would be a veery lame joke, and it wouldn't solve the "kill the uber-powerful abomination" problem, but i think it would be neat, and it would be a good story advancement.

i already pictured it: after Xykon becomes a demi lich, we see a POOF!
the order gets new armor and items and a big glowing power around them.
while everybody is happy about this, Haley comments about the fact that she's not actually received all of her Wealth By Level, and a bunch of gold coins rain on her.

the next 6 strips would be about each character trying their new powers. (i'd LOVE to see what would Elan do)

Can't say I'm a big fan of this idea. It would be too much too soon.

[Gandariel]

It would suck. Bigtime.

Also, it would not make any sense at all.

And it would suck. Bigtime. Really. It'd kill all the good storytelling up until that point. Instantly.

Why should the order get those levels anyway?

because the Demi lich template adds a +6 level adjustment

anyway i agree, actually it would be a bad idea for the whole comic, killing tension and so on.
but damn, i figured all that strip in my head and i needed to tell somebody xDD

[Shale]

That's not what LA means. A +6 level adjustment means the Xykon would be considered six levels higher than he "actually" is for purposes of EXP gains, determining encounter level and so forth.

[Optimystik]

That's not what LA means. A +6 level adjustment means the Xykon would be considered six levels higher than he "actually" is for purposes of EXP gains, determining encounter level and so forth.

The template does increase his CR though, so yes, the Order would have to gain some levels or be thoroughly outclassed.

(Well, more thoroughly than they already are, anyway.)

[Ancalagon]

Yes, but he talked about the ORDER getting those levels. For some... uhm... obscure reason.

[factotum]

It's fine for a second-string NPC character like Crystal to randomly level up for the sake of a joke. If the Order did it then that would be the WORST STORYTELLING EVER. Personally I don't insult the Giant by assuming he's a bad enough storyteller to do such a thing...

[Ancalagon]

I don't insult the Giant by assuming he's a bad enough storyteller to do such a thing...

... by assuming he'd even consider such a thing... :)

[Psychonaut]

I'm gonna make a crazy guess that the guy who knew how the ritual worked, being the same guy who probably has ranks in Knowledge: Religion out the wazoo, knows how phylacteries work and was simply trying to bluff Xykon. That makes far more sense than a high level cleric, who has created a lich, not knowing.

Just out of curiosity, since I've seen this mentioned before: what's the link between Knowledge (Religion) and liches? Knowledge (Arcana), I can understand, but as far as I know, liches aren't particularly associated with any D&D religion. (Except in the sense that a god might have undeath as part of its portfolio; but then, if Knowledge (Religion) worked like that, someone with high ranks in it would pretty much know about everything, from magic to murder to strategy to puppets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html).)

[Zxo]

because the Demi lich template adds a +6 level adjustment


Just in case, I'll attempt to write a "for dummies" explanation of level adjustment, because some non-players can have problems figuring it out from this discussion.

When a character gains a level, he gets more hit points, better saves, access to new spells/feats and other goodies. A character who has +2 level adjustment, when he gets enough experience to be level 10, is only level 8 - that is, he has access only to what a level 8 character would have access to in terms of spells, feats, skills and so on. He is 2 levels "behind", must work more to get the same level. This is a way of balancing special bonuses, powers, immunities and so on a level adjusted race/template gets, so in an encounter this character is as powerful as a non-adjusted level 10.

Hope this helps:smallconfused:

[Gandariel]

yes, but what happens if DURING an adventure someone picks up a template? for example lich? as a sort of compensation the others should get the equivalent of levels of this Level Adjustment... or what else?
i mean, we are a party of 5 people, all level 12.
i become a lich.
i'm still level 12 but being a lich i've got +4 level adjustment, so i am technically level 16, which is waay stronger than my teammates.
it would be a sort of (nonsensical and stupid) compensation to get 4 levels to the others, i suppose.

actually this has always puzzled me...

[Paŭlo]

yes, but what happens if DURING an adventure someone picks up a template? for example lich? as a sort of compensation the others should get the equivalent of levels of this Level Adjustment... or what else?
i mean, we are a party of 5 people, all level 12.
i become a lich.
i'm still level 12 but being a lich i've got +4 level adjustment, so i am technically level 16, which is waay stronger than my teammates.
it would be a sort of (nonsensical and stupid) compensation to get 4 levels to the others, i suppose.

actually this has always puzzled me...
As I understand (I didn't read the rules, as XP is not in the SRD):

First, you have paid for becoming a lich with the experience and material costs of creating the phylactery.
Second, you really are way more powerful than your teammates, but as the adventure goes on, you need more XP to get to the next level then them, so they'll level faster then you (if you stay together fighting the same enemies).
So, some levels further they will be about same effective level (= character level + adjustment) as you, but your character level is 4 levels under their ones.

[kusje]

Put it this way: If I find a uber 1337 item during an adventure, does it mean all my teammates should get an uber 1337 item too?

[Sholos]

Just out of curiosity, since I've seen this mentioned before: what's the link between Knowledge (Religion) and liches? Knowledge (Arcana), I can understand, but as far as I know, liches aren't particularly associated with any D&D religion. (Except in the sense that a god might have undeath as part of its portfolio; but then, if Knowledge (Religion) worked like that, someone with high ranks in it would pretty much know about everything, from magic to murder to strategy to puppets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html).)

Knowledge (Religion) covers the undead, like Arcana covers dragons and Nature covers animals. So, someone with high ranks in Knowledge (Religion) would know about how liches work.

[Trixie]

I find it hard to believe the strongest "disadvantage" of being a lich has not even been mentioned.

Becoming a lich is utterly and totally evil. You don't just "transform" into a lich... becoming one is one of the most evil deeds any living being can do.

It's simply "wrong" in regard to everything that is "meant to be".

That said, it's something that only a villian should be OR a very evil character whose point is only about being a very, very, very evil undead abomination (which means it's only going to work in very special and quite few campaigns).

OotS plays the level of evilness and utter inhumanity (!) of being a lich quite right and to the point.

Wrong. There are good elven liches, you know. Hell, they even have exclusive name and whole entry in one of the MMs.

And personally, I don't believe it is wrong.

[Optimystik]

Wrong. There are good elven liches, you know. Hell, they even have exclusive name and whole entry in one of the MMs.

I somehow doubt Xykon became a Baelnorn. :smalltongue: Or even that they exist in OotS.

[Ancalagon]

Wrong. There are good elven liches, you know. Hell, they even have exclusive name and whole entry in one of the MMs.

Well, yes, I know. It's in the Forgotten Realms MM. Luckily, Rich seems to agree with my estimation, so I still let this stand in regard to OotS (check Xykon's comment short before his transformation in SoD if you need an in-comic quote).

[doodthedud]

It would suck. Bigtime.

Also, it would not make any sense at all.

And it would suck. Bigtime. Really. It'd kill all the good storytelling up until that point. Instantly.

Why should the order get those levels anyway?

This is wisdom.

[Ancalagon]

This is wisdom.

I rather had hoped it was "obvious" instead... ;)

[talkamancer]

I rather had hoped it was "obvious" instead... ;)

Wisdom is obvious to the wise.

[Ancalagon]

Wisdom is obvious to the wise.

I had hoped it was obvious to the not-so-wise as well. ;)

[SoC175]

The word "bitch" has been used in the comic so it's fair game on the forums. Well, there are other words used in the comic that are not (e.g. Z's are for *******)

[Nimrod's Son]

Well, there are other words used in the comic that are not (e.g. Z's are for *******)
Well, that one has a double meaning, so whenever I've quoted that line I've bypassed the swear filter by little-known trickery and got away with it just fine. :smallwink:

The only grey area I've avoided is a certain word used by Xykon in SoD which is quite unambiguously a swearword. If it had appeared online I'd feel quite justified in using it in the forums, but since it's print only, I've avoided the temptation.

[Thanatosia]

I find it hard to believe the strongest "disadvantage" of being a lich has not even been mentioned.

Becoming a lich is utterly and totally evil. You don't just "transform" into a lich... becoming one is one of the most evil deeds any living being can do.

It's simply "wrong" in regard to everything that is "meant to be".

Why?

There is nothing in OOTS to indicate any reason why just becoming a Lich should be considered an evil act... it does not hurt anyone by the rules as presented. Because its 'against the natural order' or 'not ment to be' are such increadibly lame cop-outs to evil-fy Lichdom.... does this mean that anyone who's life is saved or extended by medicine, healing spells, or any form of intervention beyond bed rest is evil?

I once read a Ravenloft book detailing how Azalin became a Lich, and although its been MANY years since I read the book, I seem to recall the process required him to kill and absorb the souls of his entire home city... if the Lich Transformation requires anything like that, then yes, Lichdom would be an inherently evil act..... but in OOTSverse and general D&D mechanics such a system does not seem to be in place.

But as its presented in OOTS and the rules that I can see, where its just a magical ritual like most others where the only harm done to anyone is an xp cost paid by yourself and a bunch of gold spent, I see no reason to consider liches inherently evil - Xykon just happens to be an evil Lich. I"m not sure, but maybe the rules require you to be evil to conduct the lich ritual? In wich case there is still nothing inherently evil about becoming a Lich, its just exclusively available to evil people for whatever reason.

[Zevox]

I"m not sure, but maybe the rules require you to be evil to conduct the lich ritual? In wich case there is still nothing inherently evil about becoming a Lich, its just exclusively available to evil people for whatever reason.
More or less. The rules put Lich alignments as "any Evil," and say that "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character." Though the latter does seem at odds with the process we see in Start of Darkness, which mostly seems to involve the removal of organs plus casting a spell on him (and, of course, the creation of the phylactery), neither of which seems terribly evil given the process is undertaken willingly.

Zevox

[JoseB]

More or less. The rules put Lich alignments as "any Evil," and say that "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character." Though the latter does seem at odds with the process we see in Start of Darkness, which mostly seems to involve the removal of organs plus casting a spell on him (and, of course, the creation of the phylactery), neither of which seems terribly evil given the process is undertaken willingly.

Zevox

I can imagine that the "unspeakably evil" aspect of it comes from the spell itself. It may well happen that, in order to be able to harness the arcane powers that will infuse the newly-created lich with negative energy, one has to willingly allow oneself to be tethered to darkly evil powers, or has to agree to destroy a soul somehow... or perhaps the spell itself affects the whole world in some bad way (like BM in 8-bit theater, whose hadoken spell is powered by syphoning away love from the universe each time it is used) in order to get that energy, or whatever. I feel that something like that would be the "unspeakably evil" aspect of it.

The vagueness in the description of the process may be interpreted as being deliberate: The writers of magic tomes more or less generally available to proficient users will not give too many details, to prevent such an evil process to be easily reproduced (for a given value of "easy", of course...)

[Zevox]

I can imagine that the "unspeakably evil" aspect of it comes from the spell itself. It may well happen that, in order to be able to harness the arcane powers that will infuse the newly-created lich with negative energy, one has to willingly allow oneself to be tethered to darkly evil powers, or has to agree to destroy a soul somehow... or perhaps the spell itself affects the whole world in some bad way (like BM in 8-bit theater, whose hadoken spell is powered by syphoning away love from the universe each time it is used) in order to get that energy, or whatever. I feel that something like that would be the "unspeakably evil" aspect of it.
I don't think so. Being "tethered to darkly evil powers" sounds too much like getting the magic from a deity or fiend of some sort, which is inherently unnecessary with arcane magic, which is what most Liches use for their transformation; and certainly there's nothing to indicate Liches are dependent on any outside power in any way. And there's no indication of something like the "destroying a soul" thing in SoD - Redcloak is able to complete the process using only his magic and the material available in the cave, and certainly doesn't seem to kill any of the others in the process (Xykon does that afterward...), much less destroy a soul. And the last seems ridiculous - such magic would need to be epic in nature, and Liches can be created from any caster level 11+.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

The vagueness in the description of the process may be interpreted as being deliberate: The writers of magic tomes more or less generally available to proficient users will not give too many details, to prevent such an evil process to be easily reproduced (for a given value of "easy", of course...)

Or simply that they wanted DMs to come up with their own evil rituals, and not be pigeonholed into sacrificing virgins, torching orphanages, drinking unicorn blood or whatever.

[Sholos]

There's also the fact that creating undead is evil by itself, and here you're turning yourself into an undead. I imagine there's a massive influx of negative energy involved, and that also tends to be evil.