the Ritual and Tsukiko (SoD spoilers)

[Captainocaptain]

Ok, so the Ritual needs a high level arcane and a high level divine caster. And it seems likely that both will die in the casting. So couldnt Redcloak and Xykon use Tsukiko for both parts of the ritual and then only she dies?
Maybe Xykon figured out that the caster of the ritual will die, or maybe Redcloak told him. but what if Tsukiko is just being set up for the slaughter?
Is Xykon that diabolical? Would Redcloak do that?
what do you all think?

[Zxo]

Ok, so the Ritual needs a high level arcane and a high level divine caster. And it seems likely that both will die in the casting.

Xykon does not know that (yet?), he was told that the ritual gives control of the Snarl. Redcloak doesn't care if he dies if only his deity gets control of the Snarl. So no, I think for now Xykon has given the ritual to Tsukiko only to try to learn what it really does.

[kusje]

And it seems likely that both will die in the casting.

Where did this come from?

[Captainocaptain]

In SoD, when Redcloak explains the ritual, there is a panel with the casters being killed by the snarl right after the ritual is performed. (at least i think thats whats shown.) But Redcloak also tells Right-Eye that it is very likely both casters will die.

[Elfey]

Part of it is what the ritual really does.

Redcloak has been lying for 30 years to Xykon about the nature of the ritual. See Redcloak needs a high level Arcane caster, and is willing to do anything, anything at all to make the ritual work. Xykon thinks it's taps into the snarl and gives them both control of the Gates.

What it really does is plane shift the gate under the control of the Dark One. I'm guessing the final part of the ritual is the plane shift to the private demiplane of the Dark One.

[DeltaEmil]

No. The Dark One is not interested in the Snarl appearing into one of his private demiplanes...

Also, the nature of the Snarl might have changed, which even the gods might not know.

[Herald Alberich]

In SoD, when Redcloak explains the ritual, there is a panel with the casters being killed by the snarl right after the ritual is performed. (at least i think thats whats shown.) But Redcloak also tells Right-Eye that it is very likely both casters will die.

That's because of the high probability that something will go wrong. If everything goes according to plan, the casters live.

[Zevox]

In SoD, when Redcloak explains the ritual, there is a panel with the casters being killed by the snarl right after the ritual is performed. (at least i think thats whats shown.) But Redcloak also tells Right-Eye that it is very likely both casters will die.
Redcloak says no such thing. The image you are referring to is paired with Redcloak explaining to the Right-Eye that "Once released, [the Snarl is] a nonstop killing machine." It's a purely hypothetical image of what would happen if the Snarl were released.

We in fact know full well that the ritual will not kill the casters. Redcloak discussed with Right-Eye what will happen when the ritual is complete and Xykon realizes he's been had, remember? (Specifically, he said that the ritual would transfer control of the Gate to the Dark One, and Xykon isn't powerful enough to challenge a god, so once the ritual is complete, it doesn't matter what Xykon does.)

Zevox

[Snake-Aes]

Is Xykon that diabolical? Would Redcloak do that?
what do you all think?

Yes, both of them wouldn't blink an eye to do that if it was convenient or amusing to them.
But currently there's no reason to. Redcloak knows that he might die if the ritual goes wrong, but since that is also a victory for the Plan, he doesn't care much. Xykon is, as far as we know, oblivious to the Plan's goal, and likely will remain such to the very end OR figures out a way to put the ritual under his own needs. Xykon has no reason to keep redcloak around other than the ritual's promise of power.

[Kish]

As Zevox says, "The ritual kills the casters" is a very persistent and entirely incorrect meme, and so there's no reason to have Tsukiko perform the ritual.

[tomandtish]

It's also highly probable that the ritual requires both casters at the same time. Tsukiko could either cast the divine portion or the arcane portion, but not both at once.

[Joerg]

I wonder about something else: if (hypothetically) Tsukiko took over the divine part of the ritual, would control of the Gate actually shift to the Dark One, or would whatever god Tsukiko worships be the receiver?

Either the receiver is targeted by something inside the ritual (then Tsukiko could perhaps recognize that part or even change it) or the receiver could simply be the god who provides the power for the casting.

In both cases, if Tsukiko ever finds out what the ritual really does, there will be a conflict between her loyality to Xykon and her loyality to her god. There's also the question what the other gods will do if they are informed about the Dark One's plan via Tsukiko.

[WowWeird]

Good point! And what if she worships a principle, like Chaos or Good? There isn't a conscious mind to control it...

But besides that, where is everyone getting the idea that Tsukiko has the Gate Ritual? I don't see a problem with it, but the evidence I've seen doesn't seem conclusive. What am I missing?

[Morthis]

I find it extremely unlikely that Tsukiko could take over the divine part. Only RC knows it, and it's entirely possible that it can only be performed by the bearer of the Crimson Mantle. Since all this comes from the Dark One, I doubt he would imbue a human with the knowledge, even if they put on the cloak.

[Tyrion L.]

Besides, would Redcloak even LET Tsukiko try the ritual? He doesn't exactly trust her.

-Tyrion Lannister

[Morquard]

Tsukiko only has the arcane part of the ritual, comic 709 made that pretty clear.
She might be guessing at the divine part, and may be able to actually create a working divine part, but there's no saying what would actually happen then.

Also a ritual created by a god might require a spellcraft check far above Tsukiko's ability to full comprehend.

[Herald Alberich]

But besides that, where is everyone getting the idea that Tsukiko has the Gate Ritual? I don't see a problem with it, but the evidence I've seen doesn't seem conclusive. What am I missing?

She has half a ritual. It's an arcane half, and she's figured out the other half is divine. She got this half-ritual from Xykon.

We know the Gate ritual requires two powerful casters, one arcane and one divine. This is not common and has no precedent. Logically, the ritual she has is the Gate ritual, for otherwise we would have introduced another rare, arcane/divine, two-caster ritual that we'd never heard of before. Possible, but unlikely, not when we already have one of those, and it's of central importance to the narrative.

[denthor]

Here is a better question? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html)

How does the Monster in the Dark know it is only half a ritual?

comic 700 second panel from the bottom.

[Ancalagon]

How does the Monster in the Dark know it is only half a ritual?

Well, apparently (this has been discussed) it does have quite some clue on magic. Be it arcane or divine.

[Kareasint]

Since the knowledge of the Ritual came from the Mantle, I doubt the ritual would confer control of the Snarl on any other deity but the Dark One even if Tsukiko was performing the Divine caster part. I cannot see a deity writing a spell like this and leaving a loophole that lets someone else have the toy.

Keeping the Divine portion of the Ritual to himself is Redcloak's trump card. Xykon knows that he cannot kill Redcloak as long as he needs Redcloak for the Ritual. I am not sure if Xykon would use Tsukiko even if there is a chance of getting zapped. He thinks the casters will control the Snarl when the Ritual is completed.

[Ancalagon]

Keeping the Divine portion of the Ritual to himself is Redcloak's trump card. Xykon knows that he cannot kill Redcloak as long as he needs Redcloak for the Ritual.

Actually, that theory was already kicked out of the window in the comic itself.
And it even goes further: Xykon already told Redcloak he could just kill him and give the cloak to the next best goblin.

[Elfey]

Here is a better question? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html)

How does the Monster in the Dark know it is only half a ritual?

comic 700 second panel from the bottom.

He's been in their presence a long time, and they've discussed it infront of him before. I think explicitly in SOD, but he's been their pet for long enough he must have heard it during their long attempt to access the Gate Dorkunan had.

[Kish]

He's been in their presence a long time, and they've discussed it infront of him before. I think explicitly in SOD, but he's been their pet for long enough he must have heard it during their long attempt to access the Gate Dorkunan had.
They have never discussed the ritual in front of him. Unless it happened offstage. I consider, "The creature in the darkness recognized that Tsukiko had half a ritual because of something Xykon or Redcloak had said previously, and it's not a hint to what he is," an extremely low-percentage scenario.

[denthor]

He's been in their presence a long time, and they've discussed it infront of him before. I think explicitly in SOD, but he's been their pet for long enough he must have heard it during their long attempt to access the Gate Dorkunan had.

The above does not jibe with facts the Monster in the dark lived next to the gate at Dorkunans tower and never knew it was there.

It could be an idiot sevant with magic. That is only thing I can come up with

[Elfey]

The above does not jibe with facts the Monster in the dark lived next to the gate at Dorkunans tower and never knew it was there.

It could be an idiot sevant with magic. That is only thing I can come up with

He heard them talking about it though, and he does pay some attention to that. There's also the whole vision thing, where he didn't understand what they meant by gate because all he saw was 'a hole in space' or something like that.

MitD has been with them enough to hear lots, but hasn't bothered to think about it until recently. Maybe if he thought he'd understand they meant the gate before.

[Optimystik]

I'm going with "idiot savant" myself.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm going with "idiot savant" myself.
Yep, I'll throw mine on that pile as well.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I wonder about something else: if (hypothetically) Tsukiko took over the divine part of the ritual, would control of the Gate actually shift to the Dark One, or would whatever god Tsukiko worships be the receiver?

Either the receiver is targeted by something inside the ritual (then Tsukiko could perhaps recognize that part or even change it) or the receiver could simply be the god who provides the power for the casting.
Or, since neither Tsukiko nor Xykon realise that the point is to give control to the Dark One they simply open it and release the Snarl. And the universe gets destroyed.

[Zxo]

Or, since neither Tsukiko nor Xykon realise that the point is to give control to the Dark One they simply open it and release the Snarl. And the universe gets destroyed.

Only if the ritual goes wrong. The Dark One does not want to destroy the universe, he wants to force the other gods to give a better deal for goblinoid (all humanoid?) races.

[Ancalagon]

Or, since neither Tsukiko nor Xykon realise that the point is to give control to the Dark One they simply open it and release the Snarl. And the universe gets destroyed.

Wrong.

Xykon still thinks he and Redcloak will be able to control the Snarl - that's what Redcloak told him.

[Zerter]

"It could be an idiot sevant with magic"

The monster is obviously intelligent. If stuff comes natural to you, you're gonna assume that it is the same for people you look up to, which in his case is pretty much everyone. He's honestly shocked that Tsukiko does not get the ritual and probably that other people might not get a bunch of other stuff he is aware off (and which he does not realise they are not aware off).

[RecklessFable]

Redcloak will probably not let Tsukiko become powerful enough to perform the ritual. Actually, neither would X since he doesn't like competition.

However [Speculation Alert] X might very well figure he can manipulate T enough that RC becomes irrelevant.

X isn't stupid, and he actually does do research when needed. He might know more than he is letting on.

[Ancalagon]

Redcloak will probably not let Tsukiko become powerful enough to perform the ritual. Actually, neither would X since he doesn't like competition.

Please explain?

Also, how do you know Tsukiko is not already powerful enough to perform the ritual.

[Elfey]

Nature of her class is that it gimps her development as both arcane and divine. She can do both, she's got a lot of spells, but because she's split between the two she can't do both as well as a pure caster in that field.

In 3, 3.5 pure casters win because of they can always out put more power. Likely she's too low to use the necessary damage of both. But... that may change by the time Team Evil gets a gate, because they level too.

[Kish]

Where does the idea that damage output has anything to do with the ritual come from?

[Ancalagon]

I rather meant the idea that Xykon cares. Redcloak is not going to rebell against Xykon's will, at least not for this, and Tsukiko becoming as powerful as Xykon? We are talking about some 15 more levels she has to get (assuming Xykon does not get more until than).

That's not going to happen as long as the story runs...

[RecklessFable]

Please explain?

Also, how do you know Tsukiko is not already powerful enough to perform the ritual.

She is human. He'd kill her if she became a threat to The Plan without a second though.

[Morthis]

She is human. He'd kill her if she became a threat to The Plan without a second though.

What does being human have to do with anything?

Where have you seen any indication that Xykon will kill his powerful high level servants as long as they obey him? Have you seen any indication that Tsukiko might stop obeying Xykon? I sure haven't seen any of that. To say Xykon would kill her is pure speculation based on absolutely no evidence what-so-ever.

[SoC175]

Actually, that theory was already kicked out of the window in the comic itself.
And it even goes further: Xykon already told Redcloak he could just kill him and give the cloak to the next best goblin.
And if the Dark One is not pleased by that Xykon can repeat this as many times as he wants without the new wearer gaining the ritual.

[Ancalagon]

And if the Dark One is not pleased by that Xykon can repeat this as many times as he wants without the new wearer gaining the ritual.

Well, that's not really Xykon's problem, I think.

He's so powerful now he does not really need the Ritual anymore to conquer the world.

[Garwain]

Xykon does not understand the divine part. That's why Tsukiko is hired because he wants to know what the whole ritual actually does. His trust in Redcloak isn't that great.

The MitD however, is apparently a pretty caster himself, having enough knowledge(?) to understanding the ritual and see the gates in their true form. If MitD reveals himself (to himself) one of both parties might become unnecesasry.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Logically, the ritual she has is the Gate ritual, for otherwise we would have introduced another rare, arcane/divine, two-caster ritual that we'd never heard of before.
Well, both Lirian (a divine caster) and Durokan (an arcane caster) collaborated on making the gates. So one might conjecture that creating a gate around a rift is that other “rare, arcane/divine, two-caster ritual.” Indeed, this is likely the reason the Control the Gate ritual requires just such a setup.

But…

This is unlikely to be what Xykon handed to Tsukiko. The only way Xykon would have access to the rituals involved in creating a gate would be from plundering Durokan’s library back when he was occupying Durokan’s dungeon. Since Durokan was collaborating with Lirian and not playing power games (like Xykon and Redcloak are doing), any notes Durokan had would likely include the divine half as well. Xykon wouldn’t require Tsukiko to figure it all out on her own.

Just wanted to throw that observation out there…


What does being human have to do with anything?
Aside from the fact that Redcloak is insanely speciesist, there’s the fact that the Plan is to elevate goblinkind by tearing down humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes and whatever other races got the good land. The whole thing’s a race war; individual humans may make appropriate allies of opportunity, but they are still the enemy.

[DeltaEmil]

Redcloak could just have handed Xykon the instructions for the ritual. They had control of Dorukan's Gate for years before the Order of the Stick appeared and stopped them. It's just that the holy seals prevented them from controlling it via ritual.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Redcloak could just have handed Xykon the instructions for the ritual. They had control of Dorukan's Gate for years before the Order of the Stick appeared and stopped them. It's just that the holy seals prevented them from controlling it via ritual.
Well, the idea is that he did hand Xykon the instructions for the arcane half of the ritual. Redcloak’s certainly not going to give Xykon the entire thing, though. Holding on to the divine half is the only thing that’s kept him moderately necessary to Xykon. Of course, as has been pointed out, there’s even a flaw there.

[pendell]

Redcloak could just have handed Xykon the instructions for the ritual. They had control of Dorukan's Gate for years before the Order of the Stick appeared and stopped them. It's just that the holy seals prevented them from controlling it via ritual.

Redcloak can't do that ... SOD


... because he's been lying to Xykon since their first meeting.

He has told Xykon that the ritual will allow them to control
the Snarl and make Xykon the ruler of the world.

In fact, judging by the artwork, the result will be not just the death, but the
annihilation, of both Xykon and Redcloak, their souls destroyed by the uncontrolled Snarl. The ritual WILL, however, give the Dark One the ability to control when and where the snarl will be released. It gives the Dark One a loaded gun to point at the other gods.

It is unlikely either Xykon or Redcloak will survive the ritual's culmination by very long at all.

Xykon probably isn't going to be pleased with that.



... which means, once he learns that Tsukiko is translating the ritual for herself, it is in Redcloak's best interest to eliminate her before she can tell Xykon the truth. Given her passionate love for the undead, I'm sure she would spill the beans on any threat to his existence, especially from that two-bit spineless priestling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shale]

That illustration shows what will happen if The ritual goes wrong and releases the Snarl. If it goes properly, the gate will just vanish, to reappear wherever the Dark One wants it. Xykon and Redcloak will survive just fine...well, until Xykon realizes what happened. Then Redcloak's toast.

[DeltaEmil]

By that time, Redcloak has stopped being any goblin cleric. Instead, he became Redcloak, forever and impotent to do otherwise.
Not that Xykon would understand the divine part in the first place, anyway. It becomes clear that the divine part needs to be done first, as Tsukiko and Xykon find outt.

But recent events might make Xykon re-evaluate Redcloak's usefulnes as well as any possibility for betrayal.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

That illustration shows what will happen if The ritual goes wrong and releases the Snarl.
Hell, even if everything goes wrong, there’s no indication that bit of speculation by Redcloak will come to pass. The Snarl’s not exactly clawing at the rifts anymore (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html).

[Herald Alberich]

Well, both Lirian (a divine caster) and Durokan (an arcane caster) collaborated on making the gates. So one might conjecture that creating a gate around a rift is that other “rare, arcane/divine, two-caster ritual.” Indeed, this is likely the reason the Control the Gate ritual requires just such a setup.

Oh, yes, there is that one, isn't there? You're correct in all respects, and I'd add that unlike the Control the Gate ritual, the Gate Creation ritual does require both casters to be Epic (to the best of Redcloak's knowledge). That's another reason Xykon wouldn't have Tsukiko study it if he had it, because it'd be rather beyond her.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Oh, yes, there is that one, isn't there? You're correct in all respects, and I'd add that unlike the Control the Gate ritual, the Gate Creation ritual does require both casters to be Epic (to the best of Redcloak's knowledge). That's another reason Xykon wouldn't have Tsukiko study it if he had it, because it'd be rather beyond her.
Oh, yeah. There’s that, too. :smallsmile:

[Xacal]

Hey, I think I'll throw this idea out there:
Xykon smells a rat.

What if, hypothetically speaking, he somehow got Redcloak's half of the ritual? Of course, it being divine magic, he can't understand it, but, if, due to some doubts he's developed concerning RC in the past few strips, he's somehow gotten suspicious.
Obviously, one doesn't tend to kill one's second in command on a wild hunch, so he gives the ritual half to Tsukiko to see if she can turn anything up?

Meh. Just an idea, and I suppose an improbable one at that. If it were the case, RC would have to kill Tsukiko if she gleaned the truth of the ritual, or RC would be killed by Xykon.
Still, a possibility.

[Herald Alberich]

What if, hypothetically speaking, he somehow got Redcloak's half of the ritual? Of course, it being divine magic, he can't understand it, but, if, due to some doubts he's developed concerning RC in the past few strips, he's somehow gotten suspicious.
Obviously, one doesn't tend to kill one's second in command on a wild hunch, so he gives the ritual half to Tsukiko to see if she can turn anything up?

The half Tsukiko has is the arcane half, so it can't be Redcloak's half. She figured out that the other half is divine by looking at the arcane half.

[Zxo]

Oh, yes, there is that one, isn't there? You're correct in all respects, and I'd add that unlike the Control the Gate ritual, the Gate Creation ritual does require both casters to be Epic

Where does it say so?
The only reference I'm aware of is about high-level casters and this may be interpreted in different ways - I suppose a mage in early teen levels is a high level caster for most of the population.
Xykon and Redcloak wanted to do the ritual at Lirian's gate back in Start of Darkness, when Redcloak didn't even have access to Heal. I'm not following Class and Level Geekery threads, but I doubt he's epic even now.

[Herald Alberich]

Where does it say so?
The only reference I'm aware of is about high-level casters and this may be interpreted in different ways - I suppose a mage in early teen levels is a high level caster for most of the population.
Xykon and Redcloak wanted to do the ritual at Lirian's gate back in Start of Darkness, when Redcloak didn't even have access to Heal. I'm not following Class and Level Geekery threads, but I doubt he's epic even now.

The Gate Control ritual is the one they wanted to do, and we don't know what level the casters need to be.

The Gate Creation ritual requires Epic casters, or at least Redcloak thinks it does. That's why they didn't simply stay at Lirian's rift and recreate the Gate.

:xykon: "Focus, Redcloak. Can we remake the Gate?"
:redcloak: "Maybe, if we were both Epic level, but that would require months of research! Maybe years!"

Quotes might not be exact; I don't have the book in front of me.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The Gate Control ritual is the one they wanted to do, and we don't know what level the casters need to be.
Non-epic Redcloak is willing to go for it, along with a possibly-not-yet-epic Xykon. Meanwhile, he balks at the possibility of recreating the gate on the basis that it may require epic casters. We can be certain the minimum level is below 21.


Where does it say so?
The only reference I'm aware of is about high-level casters and this may be interpreted in different ways - I suppose a mage in early teen levels is a high level caster for most of the population.
Even out-of-character, most folks consider “high-level” to be above level 10.

In any case, it seems Xykon is of the opinion that Tsukiko may be high enough level for the Control ritual. So she’s certainly what Xykon considers “high-level,” and we can expect his perception to be a bit skewed, as he’s already epic.

[Zxo]

The Gate Control ritual is the one they wanted to do, and we don't know what level the casters need to be.

The Gate Creation ritual requires Epic casters

Ok, I mixed up the two.

With Tsukiko, I think Xykon just wants to know what exactly the ritual does. I guess it is possible to understand what a spell does without being able to cast it, the way you can have sufficient knowledgle to work out how a device works, but not enough to be able to build it yourself.