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Geiger Counter
2010-04-03, 03:14 PM
I've been looking up the alternate paladin versions in unearthed arcana and they seem a little ilconceived. Firstly how good people see evil is very different from how evil people see good. I can understand why a good character would not want to associate with an evil character, not just because they might slit their throat in their sleep and take all their gold and enchanted items but because they hate all that they are. However it is not logical for evil characters to hate good just because. Who wouldn't want to be around someone kind and helpful, it makes more sense for evil characters to kill other evil characters simply to eliminate competition for whatever.

The spirit of the regular paladin's non association with evil characters seems to me to avoid paladins allowing someone else to do their dirty work. Paladins of honor make it their business if a party member turns to evil. However this is not the case at all for evil paladins, in fact by adventuring with good characters and committing evil acts along the way makes the good characters guilty of not preventing those acts and might dam them.

It makes absolutely no sense for an evil paladin to fall by committing a good act. They might do so to improve their reputation. Helping their allies is a good act. Killing other evil creatures is a good act.

So basically I want to know how DMs handled the other paladins or just the regular paladin.

Kylarra
2010-04-03, 03:28 PM
Paladin of Tyranny is the best of the lot (including normal Paladin). It has enough caveats to allow you to do whatever is necessary for the betterment of your status without falling.

Ashram
2010-04-03, 03:57 PM
See, your statement "Killing evil creatures is a good act" is only good by WotC's standards. You can have a completely evil reason for killing an evil creature, and that in itself makes it an evil act. Speaking of Paladin of Tyranny, devils do this kind of thing all the time. Evil killing evil isn't good; it's fortunate, but not good.

Along with the "Evil paladins might do good to advance their position", you're forgetting the key part in that: "To advance their position". Doing a good act is only good insofar as your intentions; doing a good act because you want to help someone is a good act, and doing it because you're a self-serving bastard is another.

All in all though, the "evil paladins" are best relegated to NPCs, especially the Paladin of Slaughter.

Eclipse
2010-04-03, 04:25 PM
I have paladins follow the same one step rule as clerics do, and allow them the same rules for falling as a cleric as well. As far as I'm concerned, they're another way to portray holy warriors of the church for those who would prefer to be less caster oriented.

The Unearthed Arcana variants + original work fine for the four extreme alignments, and other abilities just have to be fiddled with for the paladins who aren't at the extremes. Paladins neutral on the ethical axis have to choose between lawful powers and chaotic powers at character creation, and those who are neutral on the moral axis have to choose between good and evil powers at character creation. After that, it's just mixing and matching the appropriate powers from each variant. Naturally, I'll review afterward to make sure there isn't some cheese this allows, but I haven't seen anything cheesy come of it yet.

HunterOfJello
2010-04-03, 06:02 PM
I really like all of the different paladin types from Unearthed Arcana as long as the paladin isn't forced into a "1 strike and you're out" clause.


I think the best way to run things is as a person associated to an ideal, not an alignment and the ideals, especially Freedom, that UA presents are break backdrops for a paladin to be dedicated to.

GoatToucher
2010-04-04, 12:21 AM
At their roots, Paladins are all about following a code of conduct and setting an example to others. When you consider paladins of other alignments,leave aside the paladins themselves for a moment, and consider the motivations of the deity who would empower a paladin.

In my opinion, chaotic deities are right out. First and foremost, a chaotic deity forcing someone to conform to a code of conduct misses the point somewhat. Chaotic deities foster personal freedom, which is undermined by a strict code of conduct.

Deities that are neutral on the Chaos/Law axis would similarly have their
"whatever it takes to make sure that people are safe/ I can do ill deeds with impunity/ balance prevails" imperative somewhat undermined. Further, the idea of an iconic figure setting forth an his holy quest to be noncommittal also misses the point a bit.

This leaves us with Lawful deities. Laws = code of behavior. Lawful good and Lawful Neutral gods are altruistic to a degree, in that they believe that the world benefits most from people obeying the law. Lawful Evil gods believe that their own powerbase benefits most from people obeying the law. These deities might very well empower people to set forth as a paragon in service to the greater good/ their god's will.

I remember seeing an old Dragon article describing Paladins for every alignment. No dice, in my book.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-04, 12:33 AM
At their roots, Paladins are all about following a code of conduct and setting an example to others. When you consider paladins of other alignments,leave aside the paladins themselves for a moment, and consider the motivations of the deity who would empower a paladin.

In my opinion, chaotic deities are right out. First and foremost, a chaotic deity forcing someone to conform to a code of conduct misses the point somewhat. Chaotic deities foster personal freedom, which is undermined by a strict code of conduct.

Deities that are neutral on the Chaos/Law axis would similarly have their
"whatever it takes to make sure that people are safe/ I can do ill deeds with impunity/ balance prevails" imperative somewhat undermined. Further, the idea of an iconic figure setting forth an his holy quest to be noncommittal also misses the point a bit.

This leaves us with Lawful deities. Laws = code of behavior. Lawful good and Lawful Neutral gods are altruistic to a degree, in that they believe that the world benefits most from people obeying the law. Lawful Evil gods believe that their own powerbase benefits most from people obeying the law. These deities might very well empower people to set forth as a paragon in service to the greater good/ their god's will.

I remember seeing an old Dragon article describing Paladins for every alignment. No dice, in my book.

What about paladins without a deity?
Also, the way you are describing LE gods sounds more like the NE heads of a lawful organization. On lawful evil there is Cardinal Krozan and the whole Well intentioned Extremist Archetype. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist)