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taltamir
2010-04-03, 06:57 PM
I recall some very good arguments from this forum about paladin alignment restrictions.

In the temple of elemental evil game there is a drinking contest, if the party has a paladin and anyone in the party participates in a drinking contest the paladin falls.
There is now a debate on the circle of 8 mod community on whether to change this and how... it seems that most agree that if the paladin himself isn't drinking its ok, but many say that if the paladin himself does the drinking he should fall, opinions seem split about half and half to me.

So, can anyone give good ideas (especially if based in RAW) on why this should or shouldn't be the case?

here is the thread for the modding community in CO8. (note, this is relevant because co8 publishes an extensive mod that takes TOEE from unplayable to a rather polished game. To the point where atari themselves recommend it; or at least, used to, now its not listed on the atari website anymore).
here is the CO8 thread: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7956

Geiger Counter
2010-04-03, 07:02 PM
There is absolutely nothing in the paladins code of conduct that would punish the paladin if he or any of his allies consumed any fermented beverage. Unless he has taken a vow of sobriety or worships a god of sobriety.

/thread

comicshorse
2010-04-03, 07:04 PM
How about he shouldn't fall because that would just be stupid
I mean seriously what god is that petty

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:04 PM
where is the paladin code published?

Temotei
2010-04-03, 07:04 PM
If the context of the drinking contest ends with the paladin being able to do more good, then it's fine. If there's an equally able party member, it probably counts as a mark against the paladin, but I don't think drinking a liquid is enough to cause a paladin to lose all of their class features.


How about he shouldn't fall because that would just be stupid
I mean seriously what god is that petty

Ho ho! Look into Greek mythological stories.

Soranar
2010-04-03, 07:05 PM
Paladins are rolemodels. Drinking itself is not a problem, drinking to the point of drunkenness by accident is , again, forgivable.

However knowingly drinking yourself to oblivion, that's clearly chaotic behavior and I agree it warrants a fall.

If you want to be a paladin drunkard , play a paladin of freedom and worship Cayden Cailean.

gallagher
2010-04-03, 07:07 PM
if drinking were to cause a paladin to fall, there would be no dwarven paladins.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-04-03, 07:08 PM
Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

The ONLY possible (and still rather dumb) ways to argue that the Paladin falls is if strong drink is considered a (weak) poison and/or the game itself involves committing evil acts. If the drinking itself is considered the evil act, you are playing the wrong game.

comicshorse
2010-04-03, 07:09 PM
Posted by Temotei221

Ho ho! Look into Greek mythological stories.

The greek gods would probably make you fall for NOT getting drunl

deuxhero
2010-04-03, 07:09 PM
if drinking were to cause a paladin to fall, there would be no dwarven paladins.

There are Dwarf Paladins? I know a lot of Dwarf Clerics and a lot of Dwarf Fighters, but never heard of any Dwarf Paladins.

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:09 PM
There is absolutely nothing in the paladins code of conduct that would punish the paladin if he or any of his allies consumed any fermented beverage. Unless he has taken a vow of sobriety or worships a god of sobriety.

/thread

this is a pretty solid argument because co8 tries to stick to the RAW... I was not aware that WOTC actually published a paladin code. in which book can I find it so I can cite it there?

Lycan 01
2010-04-03, 07:12 PM
Yeah, I disagree with the paladin falling for his friends taking part in a drinking contest. I could see it being a problem if the Paladin does the drinking contest and gets drunk, since that can lead to plennnnnty of bad situations.

So yeah. Paladin's party in drinking contest? No fall. Especially if he keeps them under control after they get smashed. Paladin taking part in the contest? Maybe a fall, depending on his deity, if he gets willingly drunk (he might be or believe himself to be resistant enough to alcohol not to get drunk), and his actions while drunk. Paladin enjoying a few drinks but not getting drunk? No fall.

Ranos
2010-04-03, 07:12 PM
I've seen DMs shoehorning paladins into falling but...wow.
Edit : Oh, this is a video game. Nevermind then. But yeah, you've got a solid argument.

this is a pretty solid argument because co8 tries to stick to the RAW... I was not aware that WOTC actually published a paladin code. in which book can I find it so I can cite it there?
Well...the Paladin class description.

oxybe
2010-04-03, 07:13 PM
Posted by Temotei221


The greek gods would probably make you fall for NOT getting drunl

i'm pretty sure a paladin of bacchus would gain a level and a nice basket of fruit for doing so...

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:16 PM
Well...the Paladin class description.

I don't see anything in the srd about it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

But I did see something that greatly concerns me...

Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

A paladin may only have lawful good cohorts? That means any party that has a paladin must be made entirely of lawful good people (as verified by detect evil and detect chaos spells that the paladin gets). By RAW.

EDIT:
when you said code did you mean:

Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
because this seems to be rather incomplete, even including "and so forth"...

Jack_Simth
2010-04-03, 07:17 PM
The ONLY possible (and still rather dumb) ways to argue that the Paladin falls is if strong drink is considered a (weak) poison and/or the game itself involves committing evil acts. If the drinking itself is considered the evil act, you are playing the wrong game.
It could theoretically be argued that getting drunk is a chaotic act... but even then, one chaotic act does not make for a chaotic (or even necessarily neutral) person, so... yeah, pretty much.

In willingly getting drunk, you can definitely hold him accountable for mistakes made while drunk, but that's not part of the drinking contest itself.

I don't see anything in the srd about it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

But I did see something that greatly concerns me...


A paladin may only have lawful good cohorts? That means any party that has a paladin must be made entirely of lawful good people (as verified by detect evil and detect chaos spells that the paladin gets). By RAW.
Chohort is a game-defined term; see the Leadership feat. Fellow players don't qualify as Cohorts.

Soranar
2010-04-03, 07:17 PM
you forget that not all deities allow paladins

I don't see how Bacchus (if someone is chaotic in that pantheon, he is) would allow lawful "stick up his ... " worshippers

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-03, 07:19 PM
I don't see anything in the srd about it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

But I did see something that greatly concerns me...


A paladin may only have lawful good cohorts? That means any party that has a paladin must be made entirely of lawful good people (as verified by detect evil and detect chaos spells that the paladin gets). By RAW.

As-in the Leadership Feat, cheif.

Also, I think the SRD has lots of bits of Fluff trimmed away, or I recall hearing such.

comicshorse
2010-04-03, 07:19 PM
Posted by Taltamir

I don't see anything in the srd about it:

It's in the CODE OF CONDUCT section
EDIT
Damn already irrelevent

Ranos
2010-04-03, 07:20 PM
I don't see anything in the srd about it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

You must have missed it.


Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.




A paladin may only have lawful good cohorts? That means any party that has a paladin must be made entirely of lawful good people (as verified by detect evil and detect chaos spells that the paladin gets). By RAW.
Cohorts != party members. Cohorts are your underlings, you get them through leadership and the like. Party members are your equals.

Edit : Ninja'd by just about everyone else. Damn my reaction time.

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:20 PM
you forget that not all deities allow paladins

I don't see how Bacchus (if someone is chaotic in that pantheon, he is) would allow lawful "stick up his ... " worshippers

Well, they allow "worshipers". but each deity has a specific list of alignments allowed to its clerics (and AFAIK paladins too). Generally it is only 1 step away, in each direction (aka, LG god allows LG, NG, or LN)... but sometimes they allow a little more (such as a LG god allowing LG, NG, LN, or TN)

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:22 PM
It could theoretically be argued that getting drunk is a chaotic act... but even then, one chaotic act does not make for a chaotic (or even necessarily neutral) person, so... yeah, pretty much.

the COC does say that a paladin insta falls if he commits any one EVIL act. but does not say the same about chaotic acts.

However, some have argued that alcohol is evil... and it is certainly a poison (which by DnD RAW is [evil])

Mastikator
2010-04-03, 07:24 PM
Naaaah, as long as the paladin isn't like, stealing anything I don't think he should fall.
But he should be looked down upon by his peers for irresponsible behavior.

Edit- poison is only evil in the context of using it on other people. Poisoning yourself is not evil.

comicshorse
2010-04-03, 07:24 PM
" No Mr Paladin, I'm not evil I just had a couple of whiskeys earlier, that must be what you are picking up" :smallsmile:

Ranos
2010-04-03, 07:25 PM
However, some have argued that alcohol is evil... and it is certainly a poison (which by DnD RAW is [evil])
Is it ? I don't see any alcohol in the poison tables.

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-03, 07:26 PM
Does Alcohol even have any effect, by Core-RAW? :smallwink:

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:27 PM
Is it ? I don't see any alcohol in the poison tables.

oh snap... so true.
Alcohol is a poison by IRL medical definition.. but in DnD there are poisons, venoms, toxins, etc and if its not classified as any of those then it isn't any... So by RAW alcohol isn't a poison even if it is IRL.

krossbow
2010-04-03, 07:27 PM
Alcohol does NOT equal evil. In the players handbook or the book of exalted deeds i've seen nothing showing that a paladin is prohibited from doing so. Heck, IRL religions, JESUS CHRIST drank alcohol.


Alcohol consumption is seen as evil simply due to the evils that its excess (which would fall under the purview of engaging in gluttony) can cause being prominent in people's minds.
Unless your consumption of alcohol clearly would lead to you being unable to perform your duties, or another issue, it shouldn't be seen as an evil act. As an example: Drinking on your day off: good. Drinking on guard duty: bad.

Setra
2010-04-03, 07:28 PM
Does Ale have [Evil] next to it?

SMITE IT WITH YOUR TONGUE

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:29 PM
Does Alcohol even have any effect, by Core-RAW? :smallwink:

you can get a predisposition to use it as party of a depression disorder and a few other disorders which you can acquire via insanity.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm

Ranos
2010-04-03, 07:29 PM
" No Mr Paladin, I'm not evil I just had a couple of whiskeys earlier, that must be what you are picking up" :smallsmile:

So that unspeakably evil ritual to attain lichdom is actually one giant frat party ? :smallconfused:

John Campbell
2010-04-03, 07:30 PM
Code of Conduct:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates:
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
I don't see anything in there justifying falling for participating in a drinking contest, much less for associating with people who do.

It's not an intrinsically Evil act.

It's not dishonorable - unless he cheats at it.

Could possibly be disrespecting legitimate authority (i.e., laws against public intoxication), in some circumstances, but I don't think it could be considered a gross violation of that part of the code of conduct, except in very special circumstances (e.g., knowingly having a drinking contest in the temple of the god of moderation).

It could probably be argued to be a Chaotic act, but a few of those aren't going to shift a generally Lawful person over onto the side of Chaos and Right, or even Neutrality and Kinda Okayness, as long as they're occasional exceptions rather than the rule. Note that, unlike with Evil acts, there's no "one strike, you're out" rule for Chaotic acts, and occasional exceptions won't shift your overall alignment.

And if it's not evil, not a gross violation of the code of conduct, and not severe or common enough to shift the paladin's alignment away from Lawful Good, it does not cause them to fall.

And note that the bit about association doesn't include any clauses at all about falling...

edit: (Man, second page. There were three replies to the thread when I clicked the reply button.)

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:30 PM
" No Mr Paladin, I'm not evil I just had a couple of whiskeys earlier, that must be what you are picking up" :smallsmile:

you lie! SMITE EVIL! *slash slash*

krossbow
2010-04-03, 07:31 PM
Does Ale have [Evil] next to it?

SMITE IT WITH YOUR TONGUE



"I'm not having sex with the evil sorceress, i'm using SMITE EVIL with natural weapons on her."

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-03, 07:33 PM
you can get a predisposition to use it as party of a depression disorder and a few other disorders which you can acquire via insanity.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm

So it does nothing itself, but if you are using a variant rule, you might gain a predisposition to use alcohol. Which is to say, drink it. It's not really using, given that by RAW it has no effect whatsoever beyond being a drink.

:smallbiggrin:

Seems fine for Paladin consumption to me.

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:33 PM
Does Ale have [Evil] next to it?

SMITE IT WITH YOUR TONGUE

you win a cookie!
"I am not drinking... I am smiting evil... with my tongue"
mmm... now lets have a paladin apply this notion to prostitution :P


a coherent solid argument by the RAW

Thank you. i think this will work best... I have quoted it to the relevant thread in co8.

Roderick_BR
2010-04-03, 07:34 PM
There are Dwarf Paladins? I know a lot of Dwarf Clerics and a lot of Dwarf Fighters, but never heard of any Dwarf Paladins.
They are rare because the paladin code is more restrictive than that of "normal" dwarven clerics. I.E.: Even the dwarves think the paladin class is too uptight.

To the OP: As far as I know, according to the paladin's code in the Player's Handbook, a drinking contest shouldn't warrant a fall. I really don't see how, else than considering it an chaotic act. And that's a LOOOOOOOOONG stretch.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-03, 07:35 PM
"I'm not having sex with the evil sorceress, i'm using SMITE EVIL with natural weapons on her."

"Let me guess: Her tonsils are evil, and you were smiting them with your tongue." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html)

Soranar
2010-04-03, 07:36 PM
Does Ale have [Evil] next to it?

SMITE IT WITH YOUR TONGUE

actually you can smite objects regardless of their alignment

If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect

Geiger Counter
2010-04-03, 07:38 PM
Ninjas and alchemist savants use poisons ability and have no alignment restrictions.

taltamir
2010-04-03, 07:42 PM
Ninjas and alchemist savants use poisons ability and have no alignment restrictions.

That is because anyone can use poison... you simply become evil if you use it reguarly...
or more likely, the WOTC authors who wrote those classes thought that the people who wrote poison use is [Evil] in the book of vile darkness/book of enlightened deeds were smoking crack and that the whole thing is stupid and should be ignored. WOTC isn't known for being consistent.


"Let me guess: Her tonsils are evil, and you were smiting them with your tongue." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html)

"because she is younger and has higher charisma score" is epic win!

deuxhero
2010-04-03, 07:46 PM
Is it ? I don't see any alcohol in the poison tables.

Arms and Equipment guide notes that alcohol is a poison with a DC that scale by doseage. It's how Fistbeard Beardfist uses booze to trigger the poison healer feat.

krossbow
2010-04-03, 07:56 PM
"because she is younger and has higher charisma score" is epic win!



I have to admit, i haven't seen a strip as high quality as that one in a LONG time.

dota600
2010-04-03, 08:33 PM
"I'm not having sex with the evil sorceress, i'm using SMITE EVIL with natural weapons on her."

Let me help you with my Rod of Smiting!


actually you can smite objects regardless of their alignment

If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect



In effect, I can smite Skynet am I right?

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-03, 08:37 PM
PHB 44 -- Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she.....act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth).

As alchohol is literally a poison, this is all a matter of how harassed the GM is going to be. The provision in the code is clearly meant to prevent the usage of, say, a poisoned dagger against an opponent in combat, but its vague enough to that it could easily be interpreted to prevent a paladin from drinking. It seems that, even if they could, paladins wouldn't really be the drinkin' type anyway.

One of my favorite things about the old paladin code were the numerous things that it should have prohibited, but did not. For example, soliciting prostitution seems like it runs counter to paladin-ness. But if you look in the code, its a prohibition on that is nowhere to be found. I guess they figured that, what with all the strictness, paladins needed some sort of outlet to prevent them from pulling a Miko.

@ Dota -- Dude, awesome Berserk avatar! Who made it?

The Shadowmind
2010-04-03, 08:39 PM
Arms and Equipment guide notes that alcohol is a poison with a DC that scale by doseage. It's how Fistbeard Beardfist uses booze to trigger the poison healer feat.

Since poisoning yourself it not an evil act, but poisoning other is then the paladin should participate in the drinking contest to spare the use of poison on his comrades.:smallbiggrin:

dota600
2010-04-03, 08:45 PM
Since poisoning yourself it not an evil act, but poisoning other is then the paladin should participate in the drinking contest to spare the use of poison on his comrades.:smallbiggrin:

So, you can prevent someone from drinking by drinking their alcoholic beverage which in effect you are saving them from poison, which in effect makes you a good person.(?)

I am so going to be dwarf paladin.

@Decoy, I made it myself. :smallbiggrin:

Squark
2010-04-03, 08:50 PM
I'd say it definitely doesn't merit a fall (unless you worship the god of sobriety or something), and associating with someone who participated would be fine, but, depending on how strict I felt the paladin's god was, I might give them a disproving dream vision or something, since it isn't proper behavior for a paladin. Nothing a half-hours meditation or the like in penance wouldn't soothe over, but still enough to remind the paladin he's supposed to be setting an example for others, and drinking himself into a stupor is not the way to do it.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-03, 08:51 PM
PHB 44 -- Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she.....act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth).

As alchohol is literally a poison, this is all a matter of how harassed the GM is going to be. The provision in the code is clearly meant to prevent the usage of, say, a poisoned dagger against an opponent in combat, but its vague enough to that it could easily be interpreted to prevent a paladin from drinking. It seems that, even if they could, paladins wouldn't really be the drinkin' type anyway.

One of my favorite things about the old paladin code were the numerous things that it should have prohibited, but did not. For example, soliciting prostitution seems like it runs counter to paladin-ness. But if you look in the code, its a prohibition on that is nowhere to be found. I guess they figured that, what with all the strictness, paladins needed some sort of outlet to prevent them from pulling a Miko.

IMO Poisoning a dagger =/= unhonorable
poisoning someone's drink = unhonorable

Also I don't really think any WOTC material should even contain any reference to sex as even mentioning that sort of thing can harm their fun for all ages appeal, and even at the adult age range playing with carnal options in play is a very different sort of game.

deuxhero
2010-04-03, 08:59 PM
Let me help you with my Rod of Smiting!





In effect, I can smite Skynet am I right?

Skynet is a construct, thus a creature. It is likely evil though.

ericgrau
2010-04-03, 09:09 PM
The paladin could fall for engaging in the contest, getting drunk and then inevitably making a total arse of himself. Drinking isn't specifically disallowed, but there's gotta be something immoral about getting totally inebriated and out of control. Paladins also fall if they associate with someone who consistently acts in an evil manner or consistently break their code. He would not fall from an ally participating in a single drinking contest, but if such things became a habit he would. EDIT: Oh yeah, and it's often illegal or leads to illegal things.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-03, 09:19 PM
ToEE used the idea that alcohol=poision =fall.

They made the pally fall if party did it for no good reason. But I support Pally shouldn't.

John Campbell
2010-04-03, 09:21 PM
PHB 44 -- Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she.....act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth).

As alchohol is literally a poison, this is all a matter of how harassed the GM is going to be. The provision in the code is clearly meant to prevent the usage of, say, a poisoned dagger against an opponent in combat, but its vague enough to that it could easily be interpreted to prevent a paladin from drinking.
No, because what the code actually prohibits is acting dishonorably, not using poison in and of itself. Unless you can explain to me how administering a very mild toxin to yourself, with, presumably, the full knowledge and consent of the victim (you), is dishonorable - and not just maybe a little dishonorable, but grossly so (which are the conditions set out for falling) - I'd call shenanigans on that.

There are circumstances where I wouldn't even call outright lying "grossly dishonorable"... e.g., the old "Anne Frank in the attic and the Gestapo at the door" scenario. I'd expect a paladin to avoid lying as much as they can manage in a situation like that, but I wouldn't punish them for not being cunning enough to avoid actually lying while not revealing the truth, and if it comes down to a direct lie or betraying the innocent to their doom, the lie is not the dishonorable act. (And I'd be tempted to call a deliberate betrayal for the sake of not lying not merely grossly dishonorable, but actually Evil.)


It seems that, even if they could, paladins wouldn't really be the drinkin' type anyway.
Well, I'd say that someone who made a habit of drinking to excess would be unlikely paladin material. But "unlikely" doesn't mean "impossible", and one occasion does not a habit make.

The rules really don't require paladins to be uptight stick-up-the-butt prudish twits. That's the fault of DMs who beat them with the Fall Hammer if they're not played that way, and players who play them that way even under DMs who don't force them to - who I suspect combine to make a self-reinforcing vicious cycle.

edit to reply to:

The paladin could fall for engaging in the contest, getting drunk and then inevitably making a total arse of himself. Drinking isn't specifically disallowed, but there's gotta be something immoral about getting totally inebriated and out of control.
If he does something that warrants falling while under the influence, he'll fall. But getting under the influence is not, in and of itself, a fall-worthy act.


Paladins also fall if they associate with someone who consistently acts in an evil manner or consistently break their code. He would not fall from an ally participating in a single drinking contest, but if such things became a habit he would.
There are actually no consequences set out for violating the association guidelines, and violating them is not in the list of things that can cause a paladin to fall.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-03, 09:29 PM
Paladins are rolemodels. Drinking itself is not a problem, drinking to the point of drunkenness by accident is , again, forgivable.

However knowingly drinking yourself to oblivion, that's clearly chaotic behavior and I agree it warrants a fall.

If you want to be a paladin drunkard , play a paladin of freedom and worship Cayden Cailean.

One drinking contest is not enough to go from lawful good to chaotic or even neutral good. Paladins must never commit EVIL acts, they do EVIL they fail.
However chaotic acts WILL NEVER result in a paladin becoming fallen unless his alignment changes.

I would say that taking part of a drinking contest isn't proper for a paladin[unless he is a dwarf] but there is no reason for paladins to have to always act as self-righteous sticks in the mud. It even said that in Defenders of the Faith, they don't have to be that way.

Now for a Dwarven Paladin, taking part in a drinking contest would be considered very honorable.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-04-03, 09:34 PM
A little off topic, but still awesome: I wonder how horrified a dwarf community would be with itself if an 11th level elven monk easily drank the collective under the table.

Soranar
2010-04-03, 10:10 PM
Well here's a holy argument against drinking (personally I do, just for the sake of argument).

-drinking hinders your judgment (in both real life and DnD) which can make you do dishonorable acts (being dishonorable is vague, but as far as I'm concerned just being drunk is not very respectable, nevermind what some allow themselves to do once they are)

on this point alone, you shouldn't drink if you're a paladin

-alcohol is a poison which hinders your performance, it might make you unable to prevent an evil act or not even notice it's happening (sure humans are limited to start with, but that doesn't help)

while this is also questionable in small doses, being drunk definitely makes you incapacitated

-alcohol can permanently injure your body (see above) or indirectly cause injury to you or others (while cars don't exist in DnD, ramming/hitting someone by accident while in full plate can probably kill an old commoner)

krossbow
2010-04-03, 10:14 PM
(while cars don't exist in DnD, ramming/hitting someone by accident while in full plate can probably kill an old commoner)

You spit hard you can kill a commoner in D&D.

Soranar
2010-04-03, 10:34 PM
spit

improvised weapon or natural weapon, or natural weapon you're not proficient with?

nonlethal /or lethal damage?

I'm guessing non lethal, but you could still subdue one

range?

crit range?

Flickerdart
2010-04-03, 10:38 PM
Unless the Paladin can hold his liquor especially well, he will most definitely fall unless he can find a stable object to lean against, and even then it's a tossup.

AslanCross
2010-04-03, 10:38 PM
Paladins are rolemodels. Drinking itself is not a problem, drinking to the point of drunkenness by accident is , again, forgivable.

However knowingly drinking yourself to oblivion, that's clearly chaotic behavior and I agree it warrants a fall.

If you want to be a paladin drunkard , play a paladin of freedom and worship Cayden Cailean.

I hold this, pretty much. Unless the paladin's code of conduct contains a vow of sobriety or complete abstinence from alcohol, he should not fall.


if drinking were to cause a paladin to fall, there would be no dwarven paladins.

Then again, they never get drunk. :smallbiggrin:



Does Ale have [Evil] next to it?

SMITE IT WITH YOUR TONGUE


"My entire body is devoted to the work of ridding the world of evil. Even my liver. My liver is breaking this foul poison down into less dangerous substances."

Superglucose
2010-04-03, 10:41 PM
This seems like the shoe-horning of someone's overly-stringent moral compass into game form to me. Someone wants to say "DRINKING IS EVIL!" without outright calling out everyone on the forum.

Though I must add that personally I feel the "paladin's code" is way overplayed and should be toned back, as the way most people interprets the paladin code involves requiring int and wis to be dumpstats.

taltamir
2010-04-03, 10:56 PM
A little off topic, but still awesome: I wonder how horrified a dwarf community would be with itself if an 11th level elven monk easily drank the collective under the table.

I imagine that this is the sole reason for the existence of dwarf monks :P
plus, the diamond body ability is Su, this means it is magical and supressed by AMF. So they would just consider it cheating with magic.


Though I must add that personally I feel the "paladin's code" is way overplayed and should be toned back, as the way most people interprets the paladin code involves requiring int and wis to be dumpstats.

what an eloquent way of saying paladins are usually played as lawful stupid :P...
err, or was it stupid good? actually more like stupid stupid.

balistafreak
2010-04-03, 10:56 PM
Does Ale have [Evil] next to it?

SMITE IT WITH YOUR TONGUE

"Obviously, this ale must be evil. See, whenever I smite something, it only goes away if it is evil..."

*chug*

"... and clearly this ale is disappearing fast."

taltamir
2010-04-03, 10:58 PM
"Obviously, this ale must be evil. See, whenever I smite something, it only goes away if it is evil..."

*chug*

"... and clearly this ale is disappearing fast."

you have slain <Ale>, you gaint 12XP and find a healing potion.

Studoku
2010-04-03, 11:29 PM
where is the paladin code published?
The full code is published in three volumes, which can be borrowed from the paladin's order's library. Faliure to return the books on time or in the condition in which they were loaned causes a paladin to fall.

In all seriousness, paladins should be allowed to drink. It helps them deal with the crap they put up with.

Kris Strife
2010-04-03, 11:48 PM
So that unspeakably evil ritual to attain lichdom is actually one giant frat party ? :smallconfused:

Well, alchohol does function as a preservative...

Draz74
2010-04-03, 11:53 PM
Unless the Paladin can hold his liquor especially well, he will most definitely fall unless he can find a stable object to lean against, and even then it's a tossup.

Threadwin.

herrhauptmann
2010-04-04, 12:18 AM
My two cents:
Just drinking is not enough to cause a fall.
Getting challenged to a drinking contest, and participating is foolish, but not evil.
Constantly getting blitzed and acting like an idiot, is a chaotic act each time it happens. The things done while drunk could be evil enough to warrant a fall.
Spiking someone's fruit punch should count as giving someone poison. Evil.
Taking an alcoholic drink and spiking/swapping it with something stronger without informing the imbiber, should count as poisoning someone. If the imbiber is too drunk to understand what you've told him, it still counts as poisoning.
Drinking in moderation is not enough to cause a Fall.
Drinking if your god, social code, or the laws dictated by a duly constituted authority prohibit consumption of alcohol, is enough for a fall. Or at least the requirement for an atonement.

Falling because a party member participated in a drinking contest, is full of fail. It's as bad as saying, "Your continued sale of loot in a small town has caused the destruction of their economy due to inflation. People are suffering because of that inflation. You Fall." (Someone had a thread about using that to cause a party of all paladins to fall in record time)

snikrept
2010-04-04, 01:31 AM
Hmm, a paladin fall debate.


...but what if the booze is secretly made out of babies, what then?

:smallcool:

Frosty
2010-04-04, 01:52 AM
Paladins typically have the best Fort saves in the party, thanks to Good Fort progression and CHA to saves. They can hold their liquor just fine.

Monks and Druids can do it better though since they become immune to poison, and alcohol is a poison.

Kris Strife
2010-04-04, 01:54 AM
Hmm, a paladin fall debate.


...but what if the booze is secretly made out of babies, what then?

:smallcool:

Then who ever made it probably liked A Modest Propostion a bit too much.

TaintedLight
2010-04-04, 04:02 AM
My short answer: The paladin does not fall for participating in a drinking contest unless a few very specific things are happening.

My long answer: I can't think of many good reasons for a paladin to be participating in a drinking contest as-is, but what harm is being done? Is he willingly acting in what is perceived by his deity/church/personal code/culture as a chaotic and irresponsible manner? Is he neglecting some responsibility he has sworn to uphold by drinking? Are innocent people getting hurt as a result of his actions?

If the answer to all of those questions (and really any similar questions) is no, he probably shouldn't fall. Maybe he'll get a slap on the wrist or possibly stricter chastisement for it, but his job is to protect innocent people and punish evil. Yes, people probably look up to paladins as role models in most cases, but that doesn't mean they're infallible or don't want to enjoy themselves as much as the next guy.

If the answer to any of those same questions is yes, he's got bigger problems. He should NEVER be putting his own entertainment or pleasure-seeking before the cause of good and law, and neglecting that is a serious transgression. Maybe he had promised not to drink that evening because he was supposed to go to a high society event to make a favorable impression? That slur is really going to hurt his chances. What about if people are getting hurt in the ensuing drunken chaos that may follow? If he were sober, he could put an end to it, but it's much harder to react to things like that if you're drunk. And to think, if you had just stayed away from the drink, maybe Kivel the fletcher would still have two working hands rather than a crippled arm because you flipped a table over on it.

Deca
2010-04-04, 04:19 AM
I imagine that this is the sole reason for the existence of dwarf monks :P
plus, the diamond body ability is Su, this means it is magical and supressed by AMF. So they would just consider it cheating with magic.


But how would they know? I doubt that a gang of dwarves in a pub carry around Anti-Magic Fields with them.
Besides, even without the Diamond Body, that Monk's going to be taking the liquor well anyway thanks to the Monks good Fort Save.

Monks may be the perfect bar-crawlers. We have finally found a practical use for them.

Brewdude
2010-04-04, 04:28 AM
All the "alcohol is a poison" people have already been preemtively proven wrong by the guy who cited RAW poison tables, which do not contain alcohol. When they can produce a poison table that does include alcohol, that argument can be let back into the debate, but for now, it, and all conclusions that arise from it, are fail arguments.

So, is knowingly getting drunk a chaotic act? debatable.
Is knowingly getting drunk in a contest a chaotic act? No more than fighting is a chaotic act. The fact that it is a contest, in fact, renders it somewhat lawful, as contest have rules that must be followed.

Now, if he CHEATED at the alcohol drinking contest, then he would fall, but otherwise, he's fine.

Coidzor
2010-04-04, 04:37 AM
^: It's already been cited, Arms and Equipment guide from 3.0. Since it wasn't updated to 3.5, that's still the go-to source for rules of alcohol as a poison.


Monks may be the perfect bar-crawlers. We have finally found a practical use for them.

Except they don't actually get any benefit from alcohol besides the flavor of whatever it is they're drinking. And the calories. Though it's arguable if those are a benefit or if the immunity to the poison prevents the calories from being absorbed by the body.

Also, the idea that mixed drinks are more evil than ale, wine, or whiskey is kind of amusing. (since it's poisoning a drink that wouldn't otherwise be poisoned, you see)

Kris Strife
2010-04-04, 04:38 AM
And to think, if you had just stayed away from the drink, maybe Kivel the fletcher would still have two working hands rather than a crippled arm because you flipped a table over on it.

Lesser restoration can fix that and its a paladin spell. You only get one spell per day, it must be lesser restoration and you must use it to undo the damage. You have no other powers and must spend your days performing Kivel's job and supporting his family until he is fully healed.

hamishspence
2010-04-04, 05:09 AM
For the rules that say alcohol is a poison, that does ability damage- see Arms & Equipment Guide.

While BoED takes the general approach that poisoning others with ability-damaging poisons inflicts undue suffering, it also refers to vows of poverty or abstinence as:

"rooted in the belief that giving up the enjoyment of a good and natural thing can have spiritual benefits"

A Vow Of Abstinence forbids a character from "alcoholic beverages, drugs, stimulants such as caffeine, and intoxicants"

However, you don't have to have a vow of abstinence to be a paladin- so you could make a case that even by RAW, it can be OK for a paladin to drink.

SlyGuyMcFly
2010-04-04, 05:19 AM
" No Mr Paladin, I'm not evil I just had a couple of whiskeys earlier, that must be what you are picking up" :smallsmile:

So THAT's why alcohol is so popular amongst the shadier elements of society!

Seriously though, drinking in and of itself is at most a (very) mildly caotic act. As such, no reason to fall. However, a Paladin will be expected to behave as correctly blitzed as when sober, and the impairment of judgement is likely to increase the number of atonement-worthy actions.

So I'd say no, not fall-worthy in any way. The things the Paladin gets up to while smashed are an entirely different matter, and a good reason most Paladins won't drink much at all. But then again, good fort + cha to saves means they can handle their drink better than most.

The poor reflex save does mean they will tend to fall in the literal sense, though. But they do tend to have have high con, and a d10 hit die to deal with that.


Edit: Forgot to mention:



In all seriousness, paladins should be allowed to drink. It helps them deal with the crap they put up with.


This. Seriously. So much.

lord_khaine
2010-04-04, 05:21 AM
And for the people who are argueing IRL definitions of poison, then i would just like to remind you that the only difference between poison and medicin is the size of the dose.

Honestly, the only thing i have heard thats more stupid than a paladin falling for taking part in a drinking contest is the part where he falls because one of his friends participate.

Lord Loss
2010-04-04, 05:28 AM
Should a Paladin Fall for taking part in a Drinking Contest:

By RAW, no. It clearly states that a paladin falls for making evil acts (Drinking Contest could be interpreted as a chaotic act). Though his alignment must stay LN, he does not suffer in any way for the occaisional Chaotic act.
This in no way breaks the Pally's Code.

Now, the circumstances could chnge things. For instance, getting drunk intentionally while charged with defending a merchant caravan is another thing entirely. I would make him fall for it.

Finally, I don't seriously think any DM is enough of a Jerk to make him fall for that.

hamishspence
2010-04-04, 05:35 AM
and if engaging in a drinking contest would help others- by, say, winning the help of new potential allies, a paladin might be obliged to take part in it.

Taelas
2010-04-04, 05:57 AM
Drinking alcohol is not necessarily a Chaotic act (though drinking to excess certainly is).

Paladins can drink as much as they want, as long as they do not change alignment, and participating in a drinking contest isn't going to do that, even if everyone in the contest drink themselves into a stupor.

If he's an idiot and drinks while on a mission, he's STILL not doing anything that would cause him to Fall, in and of that fact alone.

hamishspence
2010-04-04, 06:01 AM
BoVD- killing others, unintentionally, through negligence is grounds for a Fall.

Should endangering others be grounds for a Fall? Possibly.

Mordokai
2010-04-04, 07:04 AM
In all seriousness, paladins should be allowed to drink. It helps them deal with the crap they put up with.

Very much this.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-04, 07:21 AM
My short answer: The paladin does not fall for participating in a drinking contest unless a few very specific things are happening.

My long answer: I can't think of many good reasons for a paladin to be participating in a drinking contest as-is, but what harm is being done? Is he willingly acting in what is perceived by his deity/church/personal code/culture as a chaotic and irresponsible manner? Is he neglecting some responsibility he has sworn to uphold by drinking? Are innocent people getting hurt as a result of his actions?


Well, in ToEE you drink till they pass so you can steal their stuff. So I guess it was a motives thing that made Paly fall.

Kish
2010-04-04, 07:53 AM
Well, in ToEE you drink till they pass so you can steal their stuff. So I guess it was a motives thing that made Paly fall.
Then they should Fall for stealing the other people's stuff, not for winning the drinking contest. It's not like the game ever asks why you're participating. The reputation gained says heavy drinking is contrary to the will of St. Cuthbert, which, applied to the "paladin falls" thing, seems to imply that you fall for doing something that displeased one particular Lawful Neutral god, which is profoundly :smallsigh::smallannoyed::smalleek::smallfrown: :smallmad::smallfurious: . It's just a shame the first D&D 3.5ed CRPG was so...bad.

Heliomance
2010-04-04, 08:22 AM
you forget that not all deities allow paladins

I don't see how Bacchus (if someone is chaotic in that pantheon, he is) would allow lawful "stick up his ... " worshippers

You don't need to have a stick up your dot dot dot to be a Paladin. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873326/Horik,_Human_Paladin_of....._Olidammara?)

Yora
2010-04-04, 08:27 AM
But what's the point of playing a Paladin without the stick? :smallbiggrin:

All you have left is a poor Fighter/Cleric substitute.

Soranar
2010-04-04, 08:48 AM
You don't need to have a stick up your dot dot dot to be a Paladin. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873326/Horik,_Human_Paladin_of....._Olidammara?)

homebrewed character concepts are not RAW ;)

Heliomance
2010-04-04, 09:13 AM
Nothing in RAW restricts any god from having a Paladin. There are restrictions on Clerics having to be within one alignment step of their deity, there's nothing similar for Paladins. In fact, being a Paladin of a given god has no mechanical impact - it's just being a Paladin and happening to follow a certain god.

Critical
2010-04-04, 09:19 AM
He should. On the floor.

ericgrau
2010-04-04, 09:22 AM
If he does something that warrants falling while under the influence, he'll fall. But getting under the influence is not, in and of itself, a fall-worthy act.
That's like saying drinking and driving is okay as long as you don't get into an accident. I really don't buy it. Unless the drinking is in a locked room where he is completely alone and can't get out until he's sober, the paladin has already made a highly irresponsible (and morally questionable) decision. Besides random wrong acts, he could easily be setting himself up for violating his code of conduct while inebriated. He should at the very least have a "designated teleporter" :smalltongue: to get him somewhere where he won't screw up.

sonofzeal
2010-04-04, 09:29 AM
That's like saying drinking and driving is okay as long as you don't get into an accident. I really don't buy it. Unless the drinking is in a locked room where he is completely alone and can't get out until he's sober, the paladin has already made a highly irresponsible (and morally questionable) decision.
"Drinking" is not like "drinking and driving". One is a valid personal choice, the other is recklessly irresponsible. I see absolutely no reason a Paladin can't get drunk with some friends, or where the rules force them to have a permanent stick up their arse.

Let's be clear - Paladins only fall for a particular, explicitly-spelled-out list of reasons. The big one is "willingly commits an evil act" (the rest of the code doesn't have quite the same penalty clause). Now, is drinking beer an "evil act"?

Emmerask
2010-04-04, 09:34 AM
"Drinking" is not like "drinking and driving". One is a valid personal choice, the other is recklessly irresponsible. I see absolutely no reason a Paladin can't get drunk with some friends, or where the rules force them to have a permanent stick up their arse.


Well a drinking contest is something different from sitting around with friends and having a few ales or some whine.
You drink until you can´t possible drink anymore and then you drink some more until unconscious ^^ So it is pretty irresponsible especially if evil monsters can attack any moment and kill you and your party :smallbiggrin:

Kish
2010-04-04, 10:04 AM
Really, now. No part of the paladin's code says "may not relax," "must be on guard at all times," "may not do anything that might or might not lead to code violations," or even, "must not do anything stupid." All these arguments lead to ridiculously straitjacketed paladins.

comicshorse
2010-04-04, 10:09 AM
Posted by Emmerask

So it is pretty irresponsible especially if evil monsters can attack any moment and kill you and your party

So a Paladin can fall for sleeping ?:smallsmile:

Looks like we have the ultimate quick, Paladin fall

sonofzeal
2010-04-04, 10:16 AM
Well a drinking contest is something different from sitting around with friends and having a few ales or some whine.
You drink until you can´t possible drink anymore and then you drink some more until unconscious ^^ So it is pretty irresponsible especially if evil monsters can attack any moment and kill you and your party :smallbiggrin:
As others have pointed out, "not on your guard" is a massively different thing from "committing an evil act". You'd have better luck arguing health concerns and alchohol toxicity, and even then there's a difference between "a bad idea" and "committing an evil act".

Seriously now. How did this thread get to four pages?

2xMachina
2010-04-04, 10:18 AM
Posted by Emmerask


So a Paladin can fall for sleeping ?:smallsmile:

Looks like we have the ultimate quick, Paladin fall

He falls asleep :P

comicshorse
2010-04-04, 10:20 AM
(Groan of pain)

Decoy Lockbox
2010-04-04, 10:25 AM
This thread makes me glad I don't play 3.x anymore. The #1 rule of paladins in 4e are "there are no rules!". Its like everybody is Cardinal Krozen from Eberron!

One thing I always wanted to do as a low-level cleric or druid in 3.x is to challenge someone to a drinking contest, then surreptitiously cast "delay poison" on both of us. We would begin drinking.....and just keep going, as the alcohol would have no effect during the spell's duration. Then, once my opponent had drunken far too much, I'd wiggle my nose and dismiss the spell on him, causing him to, most likely, fall face first into the table. Then, a few seconds later, I'd play possum to avoid suspicion and fall down too, with a smile on my face.

Of course, evil clerics and druids could wait until the other person has drunken enough to actually kill them before dismissing the spell. Then, as they walk coolly out of the tavern, turn, give an evil look and say "guess he should have known his limits:smallcool:", and disappear into the night.

John Campbell
2010-04-04, 10:26 AM
Well, in ToEE you drink till they pass so you can steal their stuff. So I guess it was a motives thing that made Paly fall.
Well, that's different. Encouraging someone to drink to unconsciousness so that you can steal their stuff is clearly dishonorable, and possibly grossly so. Particularly if the paladin is accepting their hospitality, or granting them his, in engaging in this drinking contest. Violating guest-right is anathema to any civilized being, and theft is the province of nithings.

A paladin - or, indeed, anyone with a modicum of honor - should decline their hospitality, kill them in an open fight, and then loot their stuff.


That's like saying drinking and driving is okay as long as you don't get into an accident. I really don't buy it. Unless the drinking is in a locked room where he is completely alone and can't get out until he's sober, the paladin has already made a highly irresponsible (and morally questionable) decision. Besides random wrong acts, he could easily be setting himself up for violating his code of conduct while inebriated. He should at the very least have a "designated teleporter" to get him somewhere where he won't screw up.
Why do you think they give him the special horse?

More seriously - no, it isn't anything like that. Drinking to excess, and drinking to excess and then operating heavy machinery that you cannot adequately control and that is potentially lethal to innocents around you are two totally different levels of irresponsibility.

And paladins do not fall for anything as extremely hypothetical as "could easily be setting himself up for violating his code of conduct". They fall for evil acts, for ceasing to be, overall, Lawful Good, or for actual, gross violations of their code of conduct. Nothing else.

Emmerask
2010-04-04, 10:34 AM
Posted by Emmerask


So a Paladin can fall for sleeping ?:smallsmile:

Looks like we have the ultimate quick, Paladin fall


Well sleeping is something you have to do in order to function as a human being (and being able to kill evil stuff) excessive drinking on the other hand is nothing you really need^^ (besides if you are asleep you can still make the listen checks to stand up and fight ;))

I would not say that a paladin would fall for taking part in that drinking contest.

What I doubt is that a paladin would actually take part in such a competition.
I would certainly not rp my paladin that way.

sonofzeal
2010-04-04, 10:42 AM
I would not say that a paladin would fall for taking part in that drinking contest.

What I doubt is that a paladin would actually take part in such a competition.
I would certainly not rp my paladin that way.
Ah, well, that's a little different and a bit more understandable.


Still... I mean, who are you to tell other people how they should rp their characters? Would it be out of character for a Paladin of Moradin to have a drinking contest? And, if it's okay for them, why not for other gods as long as that god has no specific objection? I can't comment on Cuthbert or Pelor's stance on alcohol, but unless either has a hard line anti-booze doctrine I think the player should be allowed to make that choice for their character.

Emmerask
2010-04-04, 10:50 AM
Well I would certainly not tell them you play your character wrong or anything ooc the character is theirs to play and the dms to judge if they fall or not ^^
But IC I would most likely make some remarks like "isn´t there a code of conduct in your order" or " aren´t you a paladin" or somesuch :smallwink:

2xMachina
2010-04-04, 10:57 AM
Well sleeping is something you have to do in order to function as a human being (and being able to kill evil stuff) excessive drinking on the other hand is nothing you really need^^ (besides if you are asleep you can still make the listen checks to stand up and fight ;))

I would not say that a paladin would fall for taking part in that drinking contest.

What I doubt is that a paladin would actually take part in such a competition.
I would certainly not rp my paladin that way.

Use 2 lvl 1 paladin spell: Lesser Restoration. Never need to sleep again!

Mordokai
2010-04-04, 11:13 AM
I would not say that a paladin would fall for taking part in that drinking contest.

What I doubt is that a paladin would actually take part in such a competition.
I would certainly not rp my paladin that way.

Funny, I find the concept of a happy lucky go round paladin much more amusing and interesting than another Miko. I can even imagine playing a grizzled veteran paladin that's somewhat dissapointed with the state he found himself and therefore drinks to excess. Or a newbie, just out of paladin academy, horrified by how different the world is from what they taugh him and it once again leads him to drinking.

It can be played straight or for comedy purpose. But in either case, I find a paladin that ends moderately drunk once in a while and still manages to stay on the right side of the line much more interesting character concept than your usual stick-up-your-arse-holier-than-thou paladin and would much rather play one.

LibraryOgre
2010-04-04, 11:24 AM
In the context of the game, the paladin taking part is arguably chaotic... it doesn't serve an actual game purpose for the party to get involved, except perhaps some minor mods in reaction (and getting to loot the unconscious NPCs, giving you free/cheap gear when you really need it).

It's "drinking for the sake of drinking".

Kish
2010-04-04, 11:25 AM
A paladin falls for committing a single evil act, changing alignment, or grossly violating his/her code of conduct. Not for committing a single arguably chaotic act.

Taelas
2010-04-04, 11:28 AM
That's like saying drinking and driving is okay as long as you don't get into an accident. I really don't buy it. Unless the drinking is in a locked room where he is completely alone and can't get out until he's sober, the paladin has already made a highly irresponsible (and morally questionable) decision. Besides random wrong acts, he could easily be setting himself up for violating his code of conduct while inebriated. He should at the very least have a "designated teleporter" :smalltongue: to get him somewhere where he won't screw up.

This is just wrong. You are fully responsible for your actions when drunk, if only because you are yourself responsible for your state of inebriation.

If he does something that should cause him to Fall while inebriated, then he Falls, otherwise not.

Bartonar
2010-04-04, 11:33 AM
How about he shouldn't fall because that would just be stupid
I mean seriously what god is that petty

Maybe the 'God of Sobriety' would care, but most wouldnt

My opinion. if you feel this is going to be an issue, be a paladin of Dionysus (or a God of Hangovers). Then you get Kudos for drunkenness :smalltongue:

Seatbelt
2010-04-04, 12:00 PM
here is the thread for the modding community in CO8. (note, this is relevant because co8 publishes an extensive mod that takes TOEE from unplayable to a rather polished game. To the point where atari themselves recommend it; or at least, used to, now its not listed on the atari website anymore).
here is the CO8 thread: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7956

You are evil sir. I have a 12 page paper on Turkish Nationalism and Feminism to research and you just DESTROYED my will to work.

Frosty
2010-04-04, 12:09 PM
You are evil sir. I have a 12 page paper on Turkish Nationalism and Feminism to research and you just DESTROYED my will to work.
Can I read your work afte you're done? (Yes I know I am incredibly geeky)

ericgrau
2010-04-04, 12:10 PM
I think most posters here have not seen Hangover :smalltongue:. Though technically that was roofies. Operating modern machinery is not the only bad thing you can do while crazy drunk. And really I think the contents of the temple of elemental evil are much worse to be staggering about in than modern machinery. This is a contest to go to your limit, not having a few beers with friends. I couldn't see a paladin justifying the lack of forethought unless he had an int of 6, regardless of whether or not he was lucky enough to be safe this time.

dota600
2010-04-04, 12:43 PM
I think most posters here have not seen Hangover :smalltongue:. Though technically that was roofies. Operating modern machinery is not the only bad thing you can do while crazy drunk. And really I think the contents of the temple of elemental evil are much worse to be staggering about in than modern machinery. This is a contest to go to your limit, not having a few beers with friends. I couldn't see a paladin justifying the lack of forethought unless he had an int of 6, regardless of whether or not he was lucky enough to be safe this time.

Being irresponsible is different from doing a recreational activity. Drinking in itself is a recreational activity but can be abused by doing it with the wrong reasons.

Ie: reasons that are not acceptable are doing it randomly("I feel like drinking") or just to show off is what made it bad. Drinking while in the wild or in hostile environment just to see if you can outlast the wizard also are reasons why you will see that said wizard being crucified at a stake by orcs when you woke up.

However, celebrating an occasion or just being glad to be alive are enough reasons to reward oneself. Maybe being a little rowdy or hooking up is good enough to see if your rod of smiting is still working(as long as you do not have a wife yet dum dum).

The motivation and the reason are the things that matters and will decide if drinking will be enough to warrant a fall or not.

Knaight
2010-04-04, 01:04 PM
Well here's a holy argument against drinking (personally I do, just for the sake of argument).

-drinking hinders your judgment (in both real life and DnD) which can make you do dishonorable acts (being dishonorable is vague, but as far as I'm concerned just being drunk is not very respectable, nevermind what some allow themselves to do once they are)

This was actually covered fairly thoroughly in Legend of the Five Rings. Basically drinking to excess happened semi frequently to Samurai, and was very dishonorable, but if they acted out it was illegal for the Peasantry to kill them, and it typically happened away from society. The listed reaction was that the peasants wouldn't kill them, just tie them up until they are sober. This could also apply to a paladin to some extent, with honor being a burden and alcohol a way out, but without that assumption it makes little sense.

Personally I wouldn't make a paladin fall, but then I have pretty much ignored most of the code from the beginning, and look at it in the respect of goodness and straightforwardness. Poisoning a drink might make one fall, not because it is evil, but because paladins are expected to act in a straightforward manner. The evil really depends on who is being poisoned and how well they can make sure that only the person being poisoned gets poisoned.

taltamir
2010-04-04, 01:59 PM
i wish more of you expressed this sentiment in the co8 forum :P
the side that says a drinking contest should cause falling is winning... (although it wouldn't get implemented since the head modder had this to say:


Keep in mind that the question is not only one of merit in the concept, but also in the execution. It may be fine for paladins to fall for getting drunk if they also fall for cutting off an innocent's head, but when that doesn't happen, it makes the former kind of hard to take. Which is partly why throughout the years of ToEE's existence, players have consistently shouted "WTF?!" when they run into the drinking contest scenario with paladins.

The original question was not "should paladins fall for getting drunk," but "in light of the fact that paladins don't fall for more serious offenses, should they still fall for getting drunk?"

Falling is poorly implemented in ToEE. We can do nothing about it, or fix it by making it consistent across the board (major work), or put a bandaid on it by stopping the more foolish instances of it from happening (not so much work).
So, yea... realistically the closest they can practically get falling to be consistent is to have the drinking contest not cause someone to fall.

Seatbelt
2010-04-04, 02:00 PM
Can I read your work afte you're done? (Yes I know I am incredibly geeky)

Yeah. Send me a PM. I also have a paper on Nationalism and Authoritarian Regimes/LEgitimacy if you want to read it. Its 8 pages longer. I got a B on it and I want to edit it down to be worthy of graduate school applications. So I could use some input.

taltamir
2010-04-04, 02:08 PM
You are evil sir. I have a 12 page paper on Turkish Nationalism and Feminism to research and you just DESTROYED my will to work.

MWHAHAHAH!
I will send you a link to tvtropes when you have your next project due :P

taltamir
2010-04-04, 02:09 PM
ok... I just posted a new perspective into that other thread which I think bears mentioning here, so let me quote myself:


it seems the consensus is now that a paladin should fall from a drinking contest (although, in that other forum the opposite is the case)...

But it seems to me both cases are just considering the morality of the issue rather then the game design aspect. This is a game... this means several things.
As Gaear said, the ability to implement various situations is limited.
It WILL be played by people of varying opinions on this moral issue and they will expect different result... the game penalizing them for drinking could be considered extremely offensive to some to the point where they rage quit the game, in fact some have expressed that exact sentiment. (I would like to point you at Arcanum's gnome conspiracy issue)...
Now the question is, can the game be made fun for all? I think it can with the following:
1. Give the option for the player to express that drinking is evil and should never be done. They give a little speech in the tavern, the drinking contest quest is marked completed (it is important that it is NOT marked as failed) with the result of "you refused to participate" and they get "teetotaler" instead of "champion of drinking contest" for their history. They also get the XP as if they won the competition.
2. Let the player participate in it normally... there is no falling involved.

A person who believes alcohol is EVIL and should cause the paladin to fall will chose option 1, he gets positive reinforcement from the game (aka, "quest completed" + XP), has fun, and continues on.

A person who finds the very notion of a paladin falling from a drinking contents to be ridiculous (or is playing a dwarf) will choose option 2, now he has fun too because he doesn't fall from it.
Whether you personally agree or disagree that drinking is EVIL, you could certainly agree that there is hefty debate on it and that its not co8's or TOEE's place to render this sort of moral judgement and shoehorn it into a game.

Plus making a paladin fall over this is a **** move. Because most people would never even expect it and wouldn't know any better. At absolute worst the game should simply not let you participate by having only one dialog option "as a paladin I may not participate in such debauchery" rather falling... neigh, intentionally being tripped in such a manner.

please note that while I am of the opinion drinking in excess is stupid but not evil, I respect other's opinion that it is evil, enough to say that they shouldn't be penalized for having that opinion. Thus the notion that if you vehemently refuse to join such a contest you still get your XP (the contest does not involve any reward other then XP... thus it is purely "roleplaying XP" as far as I can tell, and either joining in or giving a moralizing speech count as "roleplaying")

tyckspoon
2010-04-04, 02:18 PM
It has been mentioned that the contest also allows you to loot the unconscious bodies of the losing party. If the scripting engine allows it, I would suggest that *this* action causes a Paladin to fall, but that engaging in the drinking contest itself (for XP and to get it marked in the quest log) should not.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-04, 02:36 PM
Nah, this D&D, looting is a good deed. :smallbiggrin:

After all, how else would adventurers stay good?

Riffington
2010-04-04, 04:33 PM
Poisoning a drink might make one fall, not because it is evil, but because paladins are expected to act in a straightforward manner. The evil really depends on who is being poisoned and how well they can make sure that only the person being poisoned gets poisoned.
D&D seems to incorporate the notion that poison is evil. Certainly it's dishonorable and would make a Paladin fall.
Alcohol is in and of itself not a poison (it is a medication, though an excess dose may be toxic) but adding poison to a drink would be evil.


paladin of Dionysus

So Paladins (the LG type, not the Paladin of Freedom) is going to have an issue worshiping a chaotic deity. Failing to worship your deity is chaotic; worshiping a chaotic deity is a chaotic act. So while the rules don't explicitly say that you can't be a Paladin of a Chaotic or Evil deity, they do set you up to auto-fall if you do.

Taelas
2010-04-04, 05:06 PM
Worshiping a Chaotic deity is not a Chaotic action unless you specifically worship the Chaotic aspect of the deity.

♠Spade♠
2010-04-04, 05:54 PM
So Paladins (the LG type, not the Paladin of Freedom) is going to have an issue worshiping a chaotic deity. Failing to worship your deity is chaotic; worshiping a chaotic deity is a chaotic act. So while the rules don't explicitly say that you can't be a Paladin of a Chaotic or Evil deity, they do set you up to auto-fall if you do.

If this was true, why didn't the PHB or SRD say paladins were only allowed to follow lawful deities? Where does it say their choices of worship limited?

taltamir
2010-04-04, 05:56 PM
If this was true, why didn't the PHB or SRD say paladins were only allowed to follow lawful deities? Where does it say their choices of worship limited?

it could have been assumed to be obvious...

does a paladin even need a deity? clerics can do fine without one.

Kish
2010-04-04, 05:57 PM
it seems the consensus is now that a paladin should fall from a drinking contest
Wow, that's depressing. I'm tempted to ask you what this forum is so I can go argue with the people there because I don't have enough people to argue with, you see.

tyckspoon
2010-04-04, 06:00 PM
it could have been assumed to be obvious...

does a paladin even need a deity? clerics can do fine without one.

Not by the default rules, no- an SRD paladin is empowered by fate/the universal power of Good/his own belief in righteousness, but does not require any deific sponsor. Certain settings make it otherwise, and in those settings Paladins are not necessarily restricted to LG; Sune sponsors an order of CG Paladins in the Forgotten Realms, for example.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-04, 06:00 PM
If this was true, why didn't the PHB or SRD say paladins were only allowed to follow lawful deities? Where does it say their choices of worship limited?

It doesn't need to because outside of Faerun, no Divine caster needs a Diety. Paladins can be agnostic and still cast spells: they get their powers from their devotion to Goodness.

Kish
2010-04-04, 06:02 PM
Not by the default rules, no- an SRD paladin is empowered by fate/the universal power of Good/his own belief in righteousness, but does not require any deific sponsor. Certain settings make it otherwise, and in those settings Paladins are not necessarily restricted to LG; Sune sponsors an order of CG Paladins in the Forgotten Realms, for example.
Ah, no. In 3.xed, Sune sponsors an order of Lawful Good paladins despite being Chaotic Good herself. There are no non-Lawful paladins in the Forgotten Realms (though there are Holy Liberators and Blackguards).

taltamir
2010-04-04, 06:03 PM
Wow, that's depressing. I'm tempted to ask you what this forum is so I can go argue with the people there because I don't have enough people to argue with, you see.

i linked to it in the original post:
http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7956

shadow_archmagi
2010-04-04, 06:14 PM
Query:

Last I checked, nothing in the code prevents a chaotic act. Why should a paladin fall for doing something chaotic?

Taelas
2010-04-04, 06:29 PM
i linked to it in the original post:
http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7956

This site gives me a malware warning.

Knaight
2010-04-04, 07:49 PM
D&D seems to incorporate the notion that poison is evil. Certainly it's dishonorable and would make a Paladin fall.
Alcohol is in and of itself not a poison (it is a medication, though an excess dose may be toxic) but adding poison to a drink would be evil.

D&D agrees with me on the dishonorable point, as for poison is evil, the bit above what you quoted basically states I Ignore what D&D has to say if they can't make a decent argument. And I've yet to see one for poison being evil.

Malificus
2010-04-04, 07:53 PM
Not by the default rules, no

It's confirmed. My next paladin will be the Paladin of Love. STOP! IN THE NAME OF LOVE!

He only falls out of love.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-04, 08:05 PM
Yes, a paladin definitely should fall. After all, even if he wins the contest he'll still be really really drunk, and if I recall the layout of the module correctly, there are a ton of stairs, and I seriously doubt the paladin will make the dex check to avoid tripping successfully.

tcrudisi
2010-04-04, 08:11 PM
Definitely not. Drinking is not an evil act. It can lead to evil acts (drunk driving and killing someone), but the act of drinking is itself not evil.

Chaotic? Perhaps. But as others have said, chaotic acts don't cause you to fall unless your alignment shifts to Neutral. And it would take a LOT of drinking before someone's alignment shifted.

At least that someone would have a future as a Drunken Master.

Kish
2010-04-04, 08:16 PM
Yes, a paladin definitely should fall. After all, even if he wins the contest he'll still be really really drunk, and if I recall the layout of the module correctly, there are a ton of stairs, and I seriously doubt the paladin will make the dex check to avoid tripping successfully.
What if it's a dwarf paladin?

Kumo
2010-04-04, 08:19 PM
Yes, a paladin definitely should fall. After all, even if he wins the contest he'll still be really really drunk, and if I recall the layout of the module correctly, there are a ton of stairs, and I seriously doubt the paladin will make the dex check to avoid tripping successfully.

took me a second to get that joke.

A paladin shouldn't fall unless drinking/drinking in excess is illegal or he cheats at it. because chaotic acts do not cause a fall. A paladin is forbidden from comitting EVIL acts, neutral acts are just fine.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-04, 08:22 PM
What if it's a dwarf paladin?

Fun fact: dwarves aren't actually short. They just fall down the first time they get drunk and never stand or sober up.


This is exactly why they are medium creatures.

The Shadowmind
2010-04-04, 08:24 PM
A paladin shouldn't fall, because the rogue is holding him up while picking his pockets.

shadow_archmagi
2010-04-04, 08:31 PM
Changing alignment causes a fall.

A single chaotic act does not change alignment.

In fact, one can persistently do semi-chaotic things and still be lawful, as long as the lawful ones outweigh the chaos.

krossbow
2010-04-04, 08:32 PM
Except they don't actually get any benefit from alcohol besides the flavor of whatever it is they're drinking. And the calories. Though it's arguable if those are a benefit or if the immunity to the poison prevents the calories from being absorbed by the body.




Drunken master prestige class has to start somewhere!

Knaight
2010-04-04, 08:34 PM
took me a second to get that joke.

A paladin shouldn't fall unless drinking/drinking in excess is illegal or he cheats at it. because chaotic acts do not cause a fall. A paladin is forbidden from comitting EVIL acts, neutral acts are just fine.

I fail to see how drinking is inherently chaotic. Even how drinking in excess is inherently chaotic.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-04, 08:35 PM
The Greek gods would probably make you fall for NOT getting drunk.
No, no they wouldn't. They'd talk you into dressing up like a woman and then luring you to spy on a bunch of madwomen, then reveal you to them allowing them to catch you and rip you to pieces with their bare hands.

taltamir
2010-04-04, 08:38 PM
The problem is that people are arguing that it is an EVIL act.


Let me state a few positions.

I think the Paladin falling is inconvenient too. That's why they are rarely in my parties. I also agree that falling is inconsistently implemented in the game.

1. Public drunkeness is both a chaotic and evil act. It is chaotic because it is automatically disorderly and may be against the law and morality. (Depending on what 'morality' is.) It is evil because it is a selfish disregard for the welfare of others. (In our society it routinely results in destruction of property and the injury or death of innocents.)

2. A drinking contest's goal is extreme drunkeness. And there are ALWAYS additional consequences.

3. If you are part of a group that is engaged in wrongful acts, you are condoning those acts, if not abetting them.

Some say that all that is necessary for Evil is for Good men to fail to act. I say that if no one acts to deter Evil, there are NO good men present.

I knew that my position would be unpopular before I said anything. I feel the same as many people here do: this Paladin falling thing needs to be fixed.

I REALLY appreciate the opportunity to have had ny say in this matter. And thank you for doing me the honor of arguing with me.

Kumo
2010-04-04, 08:38 PM
I fail to see how drinking is inherently chaotic. Even how drinking in excess is inherently chaotic.

First, I crossed it out because i forgot the detail that comes right after that.

Second, it isn't unless the laws prohibit so, and the neutral point in my post works for good/evil AND chaotic/lawful

EDIT: the acts drunkenness causes is another story.

taltamir
2010-04-04, 08:40 PM
No, no they wouldn't. They'd talk you into dressing up like a woman and then luring you to spy on a bunch of madwomen, then reveal you to them allowing them to catch you and rip you to pieces with their bare hands.

or turn you into a female animal and impregnate you with a half human beast.

comicshorse
2010-04-04, 08:44 PM
Or turn you into a stag and have your own hunting hounds rip you to pieces.

They really were gits weren't they ?

taltamir
2010-04-04, 09:15 PM
Or turn you into a stag and have your own hunting hounds rip you to pieces.

They really were gits weren't they ?

yea, they were downright evil.

Kylarra
2010-04-04, 09:20 PM
It's worth pointing out again that this is a CRPG and while potentially in a real game, you could have varying motives for participating in a drinking contest, a CRPG is very black and white about the paths you can take, and "gotcha!" paths like this are inherently annoying all around.

krossbow
2010-04-04, 10:27 PM
See, this is the inherent issue with paladins.


We humans are fallible and Jealous creatures. we absolutely HATE IT when someone is better than us at something, especially when they really, and TRULY are morally superior to us (and by this i mean actual volunteer at the soup kitchen and help people for goodness sake type).

As such, we try to tear such beings down; to find faults. To attack, attack, attack, anything to avoid admitting our own weaknesses and failures.
To this extent, the paladin class's very EXISTENCE drives us mad; a paragon of good is doubly infuriating. To this effect players too often hold paladins up to extremely ridiculous standards of morality. If they actually act reasonably, and try their very best while not having a stick up their ass, people will immediately cackle and jump on them screaming for them to fall, holding this up as proof of their fallibility. On the other hand, if they do act as elitist and overly moral as people demand, they point to this as proof that they are a bunch of (%&holes, and that their being such is proof that morality itself is wrong, justifying their own failures in the process.





Too often we forget that paladins, just like the other PC's, are humans too. They laugh, they cry, they bleed. They have fun, they have sorrow, they have hopes and dreams. They are not always on duty, and its unreasonable to demand that they never have any recreation ever, demanding that they slaver away in servitude eternally for others.

Paladins do the unthankful job, for a world and people that hate them, expecting no reward or thanks, simply for one reason: IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.


Get off of paladins backs and cut them some slack DM's/other PCs. Paladins are only so horrible in your parties because you force them to be, and if you relaxed a bit in your standards, and let them act like obi wans, Roys or the like, things would go alot smoother for all of us.

comicshorse
2010-04-04, 10:32 PM
Don't you just hate it when somebody say's everything you were thinking BUT does it much better than you:smallmad:

Mordokai
2010-04-05, 02:03 AM
*post here*

You sir, are awesome and I applaud for this post. And I wish more people were like you. It would certainly make life of so many paladins and their players much easier.

Kumo
2010-04-05, 05:11 AM
Don't you just hate it when somebody say's everything you were thinking BUT does it much better than you:smallmad:

That's the only way any of points ever get across :smallfrown:

taltamir
2010-04-05, 05:08 PM
That's the only way any of points ever get across :smallfrown:

lol... this is so true. I love it when someone says everything I meant to say only more eloquently. It gets my point across better.

Thajocoth
2010-04-05, 05:49 PM
Who are they drinking against?

Lets say the villain has a group of kids tied up and a timed trap the paladin can't reach set to kill them. The villain proposes that, if the paladin beats him in a drinking contest, the kids go free, but if he loses, he joins the kids. So, by participating, the paladin is doing a good deed and should not fall.

Another scenario, the villain's head guard challenges the paladin to a drinking contest just for fun and profit. The paladin should be defeating the guard and getting to the villain. Doing otherwise is wasting time, and not doing the most good the paladin can do. It's selfish. I could see falling for that.

A 3rd scenario. The pally's in a tavern, there's no real work to do, and some drunk challenges him. The pally participates... He's not denying the forces of good anything, nor is he furthering the goals of evil. The pally has no reason to fall here.

Dr.Epic
2010-04-05, 05:51 PM
Yes.

If they did then they would never ever be any dwarven paladins.

TaintedLight
2010-04-05, 06:03 PM
Lesser restoration can fix that and its a paladin spell. You only get one spell per day, it must be lesser restoration and you must use it to undo the damage. You have no other powers and must spend your days performing Kivel's job and supporting his family until he is fully healed.

While you're absolutely correct that the damage can easily be undone, the fact that your irresponsible behavior was directly responsible for its transpiring is the more pressing fact. Is prudence not a virtue just as much as charity or justice?

Kris Strife
2010-04-05, 06:10 PM
While you're absolutely correct that the damage can easily be undone, the fact that your irresponsible behavior was directly responsible for its transpiring is the more pressing fact. Is prudence not a virtue just as much as charity or justice?

The point of my post was a much better punishment for the Paladin than simply taking away all of his powers flat out. He's forced to fix the problem he made, helps the person he harmed and hopefully learns a lesson in humilty to regain his powers, rather than becoming a fighter with out bonus feats because he got drunk. Hopefully he's learned to not drink (as much anyways) when out in public, the fletcher can resume his normal life, and the forces of good don't loose an otherwise stalwart defender just because he can't hold his liquor.

krossbow
2010-04-05, 06:11 PM
While you're absolutely correct that the damage can easily be undone, the fact that your irresponsible behavior was directly responsible for its transpiring is the more pressing fact. Is prudence not a virtue just as much as charity or justice?



At this point, your convicting the paladin because of Hypothetical evil he MIGHT do. By this logic, should the paladin Kill people because they "Might" commit evil in the future? "life is the crime, death is the sentence"?

You cannot hold someone hostage to the infinite probability of the universe. Otherwise you end up, as stated earlier, where the paladin simply sleeping is evil because a bandit or assassin might commit a crime during his rest period.

TaintedLight
2010-04-05, 06:12 PM
The point of my post was a much better punishment for the Paladin than simply taking away all of his powers flat out. He's forced to fix the problem he made, helps the person he harmed and hopefully learns a lesson in humilty to regain his powers, rather than becoming a fighter with out bonus feats because he got drunk. Hopefully he's learned to not drink (as much anyways) when out in public, the fletcher can resume his normal life, and the forces of good don't loose an otherwise stalwart defender just because he can't hold his liquor.

Ah, so a kind of "softer fall"? That does make good sense to me, when you put it that way :D.

TaintedLight
2010-04-05, 06:15 PM
At this point, your convicting the paladin because of Hypothetical evil he MIGHT do. By this logic, should the paladin Kill people because they "Might" commit evil in the future? "life is the crime, death is the sentence"?

You cannot hold someone hostage to the infinite probability of the universe. Otherwise you end up, as stated earlier, where the paladin simply sleeping is evil because a bandit or assassin might commit a crime during his rest period.

I wasn't trying to say that the paladin should fall for the possibilities, just that he should carefully consider the ramifications of the situations and possible consequences of the choices he makes. If nobody gets hurt, nobody got hurt and he can go about his paladin business as normal. If, however, he failed to appreciate a real risk of something happening as a result of his actions and went ahead with it anyways, I would call that a kind of willful endangerment. Perhaps not one deserving of a fall, but he still knew bad things could happen and ended up being responsible for it.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-05, 07:30 PM
Who are they drinking against?

Lets say the villain has a group of kids tied up and a timed trap the paladin can't reach set to kill them. The villain proposes that, if the paladin beats him in a drinking contest, the kids go free, but if he loses, he joins the kids. So, by participating, the paladin is doing a good deed and should not fall.

The paladin is cooperating with an evil being voluntarily. He falls.



Another scenario, the villain's head guard challenges the paladin to a drinking contest just for fun and profit. The paladin should be defeating the guard and getting to the villain. Doing otherwise is wasting time, and not doing the most good the paladin can do. It's selfish. I could see falling for that.

The paladin is putting his own desires above the greater good and being selfish. Yup, he falls. Oh, and the guard is Evil, so he double falls.



A 3rd scenario. The pally's in a tavern, there's no real work to do, and some drunk challenges him. The pally participates... He's not denying the forces of good anything, nor is he furthering the goals of evil. The pally has no reason to fall here.
The bartender waters the drinks he sells, so he's Evil, and buying his drinks thus supports an Evil being. The paladin falls.

See, that's how you handle paladins.
Sarcastic post is sarcastic?

Fargazer
2010-04-05, 08:58 PM
I feel like this thread's OP is simply here to destroy my dwarven paladin Urist's career.

My DM has already spotted it. If I try to start another drinking contest at my next session and fall for it, I'm blameing you guys.

Dervag
2010-04-05, 11:50 PM
Could someone please explain to me in words of three syllables or less why a paladin should fall for getting into a drinking contest? I am REALLY confused here.

Kylarra
2010-04-05, 11:52 PM
Could someone please explain to me in words of three syllables or less why a paladin should fall for getting into a drinking contest? I am REALLY confused here.
The
Programmers
Said
So.


>_>

Mordokai
2010-04-06, 12:40 AM
The
Programmers
Said
So.


>_>

The word of God? :smallbiggrin:

Kylarra
2010-04-06, 12:57 AM
The word of God? :smallbiggrin:
I really wish I'd thought of that [horrible] joke instead of just being snarky. :smallamused:

hamishspence
2010-04-06, 02:30 AM
the class forbids "associating with evil" not "co-operating with an evil being"

"Associating" usually being interpreted as "having an evil being in the party"

Since when is it Evil to buy something- anything- from an evil-aligned being?

I think there is such a thing as interpreting the code too harshly.

taltamir
2010-04-06, 03:32 AM
that depends on the dictionary... by some definitions a reoccurring villain is an associate of the paladin.

Coidzor
2010-04-06, 03:49 AM
Yup, then they fall for either not being strong enough to kill the villain or because they chose mercy which was the wrong choice to choose for the villain.

taltamir
2010-04-06, 03:52 AM
Yup, then they fall for either not being strong enough to kill the villain or because they chose mercy which was the wrong choice to choose for the villain.

I meant that the fact that they regularly encounter the villain, regularly talk to him, and engage in trade with him (I will trade you myself for the hostages)... all count as association via certain definitions of the word

that isn't to say the paladin DOESN'T fall for the reasons you described though :P... I mean, there are so many reasons why a paladin would fall... (all of them)

My favorite is the attitude:
If he is a stick up his bum guy - he falls for being an elitist who thinks he is better than others
If he is more relaxed - he falls for not being a stick up his bum guy, and thus imperfect... paladins are perfect you know!

speaking of fun paladins... there is one here: http://girlamatic.com/fivestar/2008/09/17/020301/
if you aim to read that comic, know that the chapters are not linked to each other, so you need to use the archive link at the top and select each chapter (which can then be browsed with forward and back buttons)... also, the page i linked is from the middle so go to archive and find the first chapter... but yea, fun paladins about in that comic.

hamishspence
2010-04-06, 04:39 AM
If he is more relaxed - he falls for not being a stick up his bum guy, and thus imperfect... paladins are perfect you know!

Not according to the various splatbooks (and novels)

BoED in particular points out that sometimes, its necessary for even exalted Good characters, to cooperate with evil ones toward a common goal.

Champions of Valor has a long list of typical flaws Good characters can have (which won't make them nongood- it will simply allow there to be more to the character than their alignment and class alone.)

As long as the Code is interpreted generously (with association being defined narrowly enough to avoid paladins Falling every time they meet an Evil character and do not kill them) paladins can work quite well.

Its worth remembering, that there are cases (in the novels and in the fluff) where paladins are members of organizations that accept both Good & Evil characters, such as Planescape's Society of Sensation, or the Church of Wee Jas. Hence, these paladins have to be able to play well with others.

dota600
2010-04-06, 05:26 AM
I wasn't trying to say that the paladin should fall for the possibilities, just that he should carefully consider the ramifications of the situations and possible consequences of the choices he makes. If nobody gets hurt, nobody got hurt and he can go about his paladin business as normal. If, however, he failed to appreciate a real risk of something happening as a result of his actions and went ahead with it anyways, I would call that a kind of willful endangerment. Perhaps not one deserving of a fall, but he still knew bad things could happen and ended up being responsible for it.

A wise person knows that he himself cannot stop all evil. Look at what happens to Anakin when he forcefully try to do "everything" that he perceives as good.


I meant that the fact that they regularly encounter the villain, regularly talk to him, and engage in trade with him (I will trade you myself for the hostages)... all count as association via certain definitions of the word

that isn't to say the paladin DOESN'T fall for the reasons you described though :P... I mean, there are so many reasons why a paladin would fall... (all of them)

My favorite is the attitude:
If he is a stick up his bum guy - he falls for being an elitist who thinks he is better than others
If he is more relaxed - he falls for not being a stick up his bum guy, and thus imperfect... paladins are perfect you know!

speaking of fun paladins... there is one here: http://girlamatic.com/fivestar/2008/09/17/020301/
if you aim to read that comic, know that the chapters are not linked to each other, so you need to use the archive link at the top and select each chapter (which can then be browsed with forward and back buttons)... also, the page i linked is from the middle so go to archive and find the first chapter... but yea, fun paladins about in that comic.

A little use of common sense will be enough to know whether your D.M is just being a giant *** hole or not.

That is the reason why many people who likes to play kenders or be chaotic stupid are not allowed to D.M.

John Campbell
2010-04-06, 08:27 AM
Again, there are no consequences listed for violating the association guidelines, and it is not listed among the three things that will cause a paladin to fall. (Ceasing to be lawful good, willfully committing an evil act, or grossly violating the code of conduct. The "Code of Conduct" is a different rules section than "Associates".)

Saph
2010-04-06, 08:38 AM
Could someone please explain to me in words of three syllables or less why a paladin should fall for getting into a drinking contest? I am REALLY confused here.

I'm just amazed this thread got to 6 pages. It's such an obviously stupid question that you'd think it would take about 0.5 seconds to answer "No!" and move on. :smalltongue:

ScionoftheVoid
2010-04-06, 08:47 AM
I'm just amazed this thread got to 6 pages. It's such an obviously stupid question that you'd think it would take about 0.5 seconds to answer "No!" and move on. :smalltongue:

And yet another forum has collectively answered "yes".

I do not think the Paladin should fall: drinking is not listed as an Evil act, it is certainly not Chaotic enough to force an alignment change (if it is Chaotic at all), any interpretation leading to the above could have a Paladin fall for breathing (air-bourne toxins), drinking alchohol at all (it is treated as a poison), or just exisiting and not managing to be absolutely Lawful Good at all times (punishing them for unknown acts of Evil, instant fall for Chaotic acts, certain interpretations of "associate" and falling attatched to association with Evil, not preventing all Evil acts possible, or being punished for possible consequences). It would be case-by-case at worst, and that is not feasible in a CRPG so no fall would probably be the better option. [/IMO]

Saph
2010-04-06, 08:52 AM
And yet another forum has collectively answered "yes".

Seriously? The one in the OP, or another?

ScionoftheVoid
2010-04-06, 09:23 AM
Seriously? The one in the OP, or another?

The one in the OP. I'm not going back through six pages or the discussion on the other forum to find out if I remembered this correctly, so I could be wrong. Having gone not far down the first page there it doesn't look like I'm right, but I was sure Taltamir mentioned it, page 3 or 4 maybe? Page four of this thread, reply #116.

hamishspence
2010-04-06, 09:37 AM
Again, there are no consequences listed for violating the association guidelines, and it is not listed among the three things that will cause a paladin to fall. (Ceasing to be lawful good, willfully committing an evil act, or grossly violating the code of conduct. The "Code of Conduct" is a different rules section than "Associates".)

Going by the text of the Atonement spell- it is implied that a paladin will Fall for nonwillful evil acts, as well.

Still- taking a drink- in itself- isn't evil- some acts are context-sensitive.

In 2nd ed, there was a "1 strike and you're out" rule for chaotic acts- a single Chaotic act, and the character falls, a single evil act (even an unknowing one, or one committed under magical influence like dominate person) and the character Falls, a single willful evil act, and the character Falls and stays fallen.

In 3.0, they dropped the "single Chaotic act causes you to Fall" rule

In 3.5, they dropped the "single willful evil act causes you to Fall and stay fallen"

But they didn't drop the possibility of falling for a nonwillful evil act- it is still present in the description in the Atonement spell.

Paladin rules have gotten less restrictive over time.

Going back to the original topic- even if alcohol works like a poison- (it was first suggested to be an evil act to administer poison to somebody in 3.0-3.5, in Defenders of the Faith, and reinterated in BoED) there is text in BoED to suggest taking alcohol is not an evil act.

Specifically- on relationships- it suggests vows of chastity, like vows of abstinence are rooted in the belief that giving up a good and natural thing can have spiritual benefits.

Thajocoth
2010-04-06, 12:17 PM
Going by the text of the Atonement spell- it is implied that a paladin will Fall for nonwillful evil acts, as well.

Still- taking a drink- in itself- isn't evil- some acts are context-sensitive.

In 2nd ed, there was a "1 strike and you're out" rule for chaotic acts- a single Chaotic act, and the character falls, a single evil act (even an unknowing one, or one committed under magical influence like dominate person) and the character Falls, a single willful evil act, and the character Falls and stays fallen.

In 3.0, they dropped the "single Chaotic act causes you to Fall" rule

In 3.5, they dropped the "single willful evil act causes you to Fall and stay fallen"

But they didn't drop the possibility of falling for a nonwillful evil act- it is still present in the description in the Atonement spell.

Paladin rules have gotten less restrictive over time.

And in 4e, there's no rules for a Paladin to fall and they can have any alignment. They say your alignment needs to match your deity, I think, but they don't say what happens if you act out of alignment.

hamishspence
2010-04-06, 12:29 PM
Or if your alignment changes after taking levels in the class.

I figure that powers remain present- this would ensure that "fallen" paladins can't actually be spotted using mechanical means- they still wield their powers. (Detect spells have also been dropped, so they can't be used either)

Instead, you have to identify them by their actions- might require a bit of detective work.

It's an interesting alternative to the earlier systems.

Lysander
2010-04-06, 12:38 PM
Here's the reason the paladin falls. It isn't an issue of good or evil. It's an issue of law and chaos.

Drinking that much causes you to behave chaotically. Therefore, a lawful person would not enter a drinking contest. Therefore, a paladin who eagerly enters a drinking contest is no longer lawful.

Now, I can see exceptions to this. If your society has a customary Festival of Drunkeness, or a culture of constant drinking, then it's lawful to participate. If you're being coerced in some way, that's not really a willfully chaotic act. But in a standard medieval society on an average day if someone offers your paladin a chance to get blitzed and the paladin's reaction is "WOOOOO! SPRING BREAK!" and they take off their plate mail and start chugging whiskey...they're probably chaotic.

DSCrankshaw
2010-04-06, 12:40 PM
Here's the reason the paladin falls. It isn't an issue of good or evil. It's an issue of law and chaos.

Drinking that much causes you to behave chaotically. Therefore, a lawful person would not enter a drinking contest. Therefore, a paladin who eagerly enters a drinking contest is no longer lawful.

Now, I can see exceptions to this. If your society has a customary Festival of Drunkeness, or a culture of constant drinking, then it's lawful to participate. If you're being coerced in some way, that's not really a willfully chaotic act. But in a standard medieval society on an average day if someone offers your paladin a chance to get blitzed and the paladin's reaction is "WOOOOO! SPRING BREAK!" and they take off their plate mail and start chugging whiskey...they're probably chaotic.

As has already been pointed out, a single chaotic act does not make you chaotic, and paladins don't fall for committing chaotic acts, only evil ones.

Chen
2010-04-06, 12:41 PM
I suppose a paladin using his deity enhanced fort save to drink against people who I suppose could be implicitly assuming there was no "magic" involved, could be considered cheating. Here he'd be breaking his code of conduct. Still probably isn't a gross violation of the code though so even with that interpretation he probably shouldn't immediately fall.

Kylarra
2010-04-06, 12:41 PM
But in a standard medieval society on an average day if someone offers your paladin a chance to get blitzed and the paladin's reaction is "WOOOOO! SPRING BREAK!" and they take off their plate mail and start chugging whiskey...they're probably chaotic.... or a Dwarf.

Lysander
2010-04-06, 12:50 PM
As has already been pointed out, a single chaotic act does not make you chaotic, and paladins don't fall for committing chaotic acts, only evil ones.

A single chaotic act does not automatically make you chaotic, but it can definitely be an indication of personality change. It's up to the player and DM whether to treat it as an alignment shift or anomalous behavior. There's plenty of DM discretion allowed.

The difference is this is a video game, so the DM discretion is out. Video game RPGs tend to make individual moral decisions major turning points. The alternative is to not make the paladin fall for any single act, instead give them law/chaos and good/evil points as they make various choices. With enough points towards chaos/evil their alignment shifts, but isolated incidents (short of murder) wouldn't shift it automatically.


... or a Dwarf.

I pointed out that a "culture of drinking" would have drunk paladins. I'm talking about how a standard default medieval human culture considers public drunkenness.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-06, 12:52 PM
A single chaotic act does not automatically make you chaotic, but it can definitely be an indication of personality change. It's up to the player and DM whether to treat it as an alignment shift or anomalous behavior. There's plenty of DM discretion allowed.

The difference is this is a video game, so the DM discretion is out. Video game RPGs tend to make individual moral decisions major turning points. The alternative is to not make the paladin fall for any single act, instead give them law/chaos and good/evil points as they make various choices. With enough points towards chaos/evil their alignment shifts, but isolated incidents (short of murder) wouldn't shift it automatically.

The KOtOR method? It gives dark side/light side points for almost every action.

Lysander
2010-04-06, 12:54 PM
The KOtOR method? It gives dark side/light side points for almost every action.

That seems most reasonable here. Taking part in the contest would give the paladin a point towards chaos, which by itself does nothing but adds up quickly if you make a habit out of that kind of behavior and don't engage in lawful behavior to counteract it.

taltamir
2010-04-06, 02:08 PM
I'm just amazed this thread got to 6 pages. It's such an obviously stupid question that you'd think it would take about 0.5 seconds to answer "No!" and move on. :smalltongue:

simple, its things like:


Let me state a few positions.

I think the Paladin falling is inconvenient too. That's why they are rarely in my parties. I also agree that falling is inconsistently implemented in the game.

1. Public drunkeness is both a chaotic and evil act. It is chaotic because it is automatically disorderly and may be against the law and morality. (Depending on what 'morality' is.) It is evil because it is a selfish disregard for the welfare of others. (In our society it routinely results in destruction of property and the injury or death of innocents.)

2. A drinking contest's goal is extreme drunkeness. And there are ALWAYS additional consequences.

3. If you are part of a group that is engaged in wrongful acts, you are condoning those acts, if not abetting them.

Some say that all that is necessary for Evil is for Good men to fail to act. I say that if no one acts to deter Evil, there are NO good men present.

I knew that my position would be unpopular before I said anything. I feel the same as many people here do: this Paladin falling thing needs to be fixed.

I REALLY appreciate the opportunity to have had ny say in this matter. And thank you for doing me the honor of arguing with me.

and


Well, IIRC a paladin falls if he fails to act LG. Drinking contest may not be "evil" but is certainly a chaotic action, not something a "stick-up-the-ass" character would proceed to do, so falling is completely justified. Besides, from a gaming standpoint, there need to be some sort of drawbacks for all the extra bonuses Pallys get over fighters.

But well, it's implemented spottily in TOEE, since after all it's not a game centered on text-based interaction, and reputation based on battle actions are somewhat hard to implement.

As for the alternative scenario for the contest, sounds pretty good. It'd probably need to have a pretty high CHA or diplomacy requirement to succeed though, alongside a class or alignment requirement. It's not that easy to just walk into a bar and then talk everyone there into refusing to drink for the rest of their lives. As a side-effect, it'd be cool if, say, the innkeeper doubled the inn-prices for you, or refused to give/auto-botch the Furnok quest, since he now hates you for negatively affecting his sales...

BTW, the "champion of drinking contest" says something about St. Cuthbert followers disliking you (just like Old Faith for Dragonslayer rep), but I never noticed it happen. It'd be nice if that could affect shop prices somehow, or whatnot. No idea if that's even possible to do though.

and from this forum


Paladins are rolemodels. Drinking itself is not a problem, drinking to the point of drunkenness by accident is , again, forgivable.

However knowingly drinking yourself to oblivion, that's clearly chaotic behavior and I agree it warrants a fall.

If you want to be a paladin drunkard , play a paladin of freedom and worship Cayden Cailean.

Not everyone is in agreement that making a paladin fall for drinking contest is unnecessary, pointless, mean, and probably against the rules. A good amount of people think they should fall. Either because alcohol is evil, or because paladins are supposed to be "stick up their bum" and "hold up to higher standards".

hamishspence
2010-04-06, 02:18 PM
Or, because, while alcohol may not be evil- and paladin's don't have to be "stick up the bum",

paladins endangering fellow party members by extreme drunkeness in a highly dangerous environment (the depths of a dungeon) is inappropriate.

Kallisti
2010-04-06, 02:18 PM
Alcohol is evil, and it is his clear duty as a Paladin to smite it.

With his gullet.

Seriously, a Paladin is allowed to be human as long as it doesn't interfere with his sacred duty.

Now, if he gets drunk enough to commit a crime, he's in trouble.

hamishspence
2010-04-06, 02:21 PM
Which is the main hazard of drinking enough to win a drinking contest.

If it was in town, the paladin wasn't "on duty" and there wasn't a risk to his neighbours, Falling would be harder to justify.

Maybe because there aren't rules for mental disarray from too much drink (might work something like a Confusion spell). As written, the only penalty is temporarily reduced stats.

Sliver
2010-04-06, 02:24 PM
Clearly, a paladin who is in the same party with someone who gets into a drinking contest won't fall.

A paladin who enters a drinking contest himself and ends up wasted and in the dumpster but doesn't harm anybody while being drunk gets his picture hung in the wall of shame at the kindergarten for paladins, where they show the danger of alcohol so further generations of paladins won't make the same mistake. So you are being an example and doing good, so you don't fall.

A paladin who causes real harm while being drunk goes on to fix it, but no insta-fall.

hamishspence
2010-04-06, 02:37 PM
A paladin who causes real harm while being drunk goes on to fix it, but no insta-fall.

Unless you're going with PHB Atonement "If the atoning creature commited the evil act unwittingly (or under some form of magical compulsion) atonement operates at no cost to you."

So it is possible to commit an evil act unwittingly- and it still counts as evil.

Under Restore Class, it says "a paladin who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her with this spell"

Not "willfully committing an evil act"

Implying the rule in the paladin class description is incomplete (which would make sense, since it is an exact copy of the text in the 3.0 version- which was directly contradicted by the 3.0 version of Atonement- which made it clear that the paladin could only atone for evil acts if they were unwitting, or committed under magical compulsion).

3.5 removed that "only" but it didn't remove the possibility of Falling for unwitting evil acts.

BoVD said something similar about causing death through carelessness- "the paladin isn't exactly a murderer, but they should probably Fall until they have made some kind of atonement"

taltamir
2010-04-06, 02:40 PM
BoVD said something similar about causing death through carelessness- "the paladin isn't exactly a murderer, but they should probably Fall until they have made some kind of atonement"

the funny thing is that the paladin doesn't need to make atonement, he needs to get a casting of the spell with the same name. :P

hamishspence
2010-04-06, 02:46 PM
Champions of Valor pointed out that the spell is there to simplify things- if the DM prefers, the character might being able to get their powers back by doing things- apologizing to the victims- making restitution to them, and going on a quest- instead of just getting the spell.

The spell simplifies things if there isn't time for extended roleplay- but in-universe, the character should be proving themselves deserving of forgiveness, to the forces that grant them their powers.

Fiendish Codex 2 states flatly that the spell alone won't do it:

for minor evil deeds, the acts of atonement get the characters' power back- and ends the taint of evil deeds- for more major ones, the character must perform acts of atonement and get the spell. The spell alone is not enough.

Nightson
2010-04-06, 03:24 PM
I think a lot of people in this thread have never gotten really drunk before.

Mordokai
2010-04-06, 03:25 PM
Or maybe they got really drunk too often...

Yukitsu
2010-04-06, 03:33 PM
I think a lot of people in this thread have never gotten really drunk before.

I would, but I don't get the fort save bonus from charisma and don't have fort as my class save like paladins do, so I wouldn't be able to pass as many saves against the effects like a paladin could.

paddyfool
2010-04-06, 03:35 PM
Incidentally, I seem to recall that the best way to make book on that particular drinking contest was to nick all your fellow competitors' stuff after they pass out. How about making that a fall-worthy offence, but honourable participation perfectly OK?

(Apologies if this has been said already).

taltamir
2010-04-06, 06:57 PM
I think a lot of people in this thread have never gotten really drunk before.

I never have... although, twice in my life I drank 8-9 shots of vodka (over the course of a night); 3 more times I drank under 6 shots (4 shots within 1 minute on an empty stomach hits you harder then 10 shots over 3 hours with food)... but I am a big guy of russian descent... I didn't puke, I wasn't wobbly, I wasn't acting stupid, I walked a straight line perfectly, and I didn't have a hangover; I did it in my house, when I was of legal age, in party where everyone was drinking... In all of those cases I cut myself off when I felt I had enough to drink. I decided not to drink even in such cases because it is just a waste of my liver and money.

But I am going off on a tangent. I never got hammered, I never expect to... it certainly seems like a stupid thing to do that I have no interest in... However, just because I have no interest in it or I think it is stupid doesn't make it EVIL, or even CHAOTIC... I strongly oppose the notion that you should penalize a paladin for drinking. Now, if the paladin got drunk and committed an evil dead? sure, he falls. Being drunk is no excuse... but saying drinking = falling because he COULD commit an evil deed under the influence is complete BS. Might as well say its evil not pluck out your own eyes because seeing what others have could drive you to commit an evil deed.

hamishspence
2010-04-07, 02:26 AM
I think of it as "Drinking off duty is fine (usually), drinking on duty is very definitely not fine"

If the paladin was on watch while the others were sleeping- and they drank enough to significantly affect their senses- then they are endangering the rest of the party.

Just as a sentry who drinks on duty would get court-martialled, and possibly shot, so a paladin who drinks on duty should probably Fall.

SethFahad
2010-04-07, 02:58 AM
Answering out of my head, I think participating in drinking contest is chaotic behavior, so falling in this category of actions, means falling from grace...

still a paladin may fall from grace if she "grossly violates the code of conduct".
I don't know if drunkness, or a similar "fleshly" act (not spiritual), means violation of the so called code of conduct...

I think it's DM call... if it was only a single occation...then it's ok I guess.
But if it becomes a way of life... then sorry, you are an X.

hamishspence
2010-04-07, 05:02 AM
It wouldn't be too hard to imagine a society where participating was lawful behaviour-

if most of the adults of the society do it- and failure to do so was looked on with a bit of suspicion- and the character is conformist, so they do so despite not being especially fond of drink.

Also- there's very little in the Code of Conduct that might cover it- just "act with honor" which doesn't actually say very much one way or another.

Occasional chaotic acts which aren't gross violations of the code, won't make a paladin fall.

Only in 2nd ed (and maybe earlier) did paladins fall for committing any Chaotic act.

BoED makes it clear that there is nothing inherently wrong about "fleshly, non-spiritual acts"- vows of poverty, chastity, abstinence, are rooted in the belief that "denying oneself things that are good and natural can have spiritual benefits"- not the belief that these things are evil.

SethFahad
2010-04-07, 05:46 AM
Only in 2nd ed (and maybe earlier) did paladins fall for committing any Chaotic act.

Maybe it was 2nd ed I had in mind...

Still, a Paladins life, must be an (good) example for everyone. A boozer, drunkard Paladin is not...
There is no Honor in a pub-crawling tippler. :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-04-07, 06:14 AM
Kor in Deep Space Nine seemed to manage the issue of combining being honorable with living life to the fullest (including drinking a lot). Though his friends disapproved of his behaviour.

Different cultures emphasise different aspects of honor. "Set a shining example" might take a back seat to "never break your word" or "never act in a cowardly fashion"

Adamaro
2010-04-07, 06:35 AM
tltr.

No. Just no. Even gin-sodden paladin who still does good deeds (or refrains from doing evil ones) and does not break the law (unless law is evil), remains as is. At least in my book.

hamishspence
2010-04-07, 06:43 AM
Refraining from evil deeds is not enough to be Good- you have to do Good deeds as well.

A paladin who drinks a bit more than is healthy is passable- but if it can be argued that their drinking has gotten people killed (for example, they drunk too much while on watch, the party was caught by surprise, and some members were killed)- they should probably Fall until they atone.

I can accept the "heroic drunkard" paladin- but not if they get badly negligent.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-07, 07:01 AM
Guys, ToEE was 2nd edition: so now we have the answer drinking was choatic so that was why the Pally fell.

Matthew
2010-04-07, 07:13 AM
Guys, ToEE was 2nd edition: so now we have the answer drinking was chaotic so that was why the Pally fell.

They are talking about the D20 computer game conversion. There is nothing so contrived in the actual module (which was first edition, for those counting).