Best way to portray a Samurai? [3.5]

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Would it just be Fighter or Warblade? CW Samurai is teh suck, I'm aware, but I'm wondering what would be the best way to portray one in E6.

EDIT: For those who only read the first post, I want to avoid the use of the ToB entirely.
Also, this is for E6.
And the style I'm going for is the novel/miniseries Shogun.

[Zombimode]

First question: what IS a Samurai to you?

[trmptfnfr]

Crusader seems fitting for the stereotypical samurai.
Their abilities are all based on being unwavering badasses, sort off what the Samurai has come to represent.

Though an excellent case could be made for warblade too.

I guess you will have to answer Zombimodes question first.

[imp_fireball]

I was thinking of retooling the samurai. Although for your purposes, warblade would do the trick. You can add in crusader too if you want to make them particularly lawful/faithful/whatever.

Anyway -

Samurai should have combat styles and depending on the style they choose (which appropriates at given level points), they can empower themselves in that manner. There's more to a samurai then staring somebody down and looking all stoic (which is pretty much all complete warrior does).

The standard signature move of the samurai is there weapon draw and attack, all in one smooth movement.

CW interprets this as, quick draw - but only with the katana and wakizashi (I don't even remember if they remembered to include wakizashi in there) - complete crap in other words.

Instead, make it quick draw with katana and wakizashi - and then allow a them to make an attack as a swift action with either one of them. The katana counts as a light weapon for this purpose as well, meaning you can perform sneak attacks/sudden strikes with it. Make sense? Samurai really love katanas.

At higher levels, if they use this ability against someone they have higher initiative than, then they can make two attacks in a swift action. How rad. :smallcool:



Offense combat style -

Power lunges - Multiple 5ft. steps per round. Full attacks galore.

Repetition Ki - Combine Ki with sword strokes that work. Assuming you made a critical strike, you can threaten automatically the next round, however you have to take 10 on the given attack. So if you hit while taking 10, then you roll to confirm without the need of determining whether or not you threaten.

Relentless in the Kill - Sacrifice attacks of opportunity for additional attacks on a full attack action. Each additional attack imposes a -2 penalty to all attacks. At higher levels, this does not require a full action.

Mounted - Mounted combat and archery as selectable bonus feats.

Debuff Style

Blood Makes Fear - Everytime you kill somebody, you gain a +1 to intimidate for that round per kill. Douse yourself in the blood as a move action and you get to keep half of those bonuses for the rest of combat.

(whatever the Japanese word for 'emotional intensity' is applying to samurai demonstrations in real life... starts with a Z) - Intimidate as a swift action.

Icey Fingers Clutching the Heart Atwixt the Ribs - Intimidate is more powerful, and does more then its usual affects. At high levels you can panic enemies depending on degree of success.

Cold Stare - Use Wisdom instead of Charisma for intimidate. You can project the fact that you are of very clear understanding that your opponent is weak and pathetic rather then having to make yourself seem scary.

Tank/Buff Style

Stance - Acquire dwarven stability. If you are a dwarf already, stacks with dwarven stability.

Stoic - Like paladin's divine grace but uses wisdom instead of charisma. Or constituion - whatever attribute seems more appropriate to samurai (depending on MAD, of course).

Dominate Self - Basically iron heart surge. At high levels, you can gain temporary SR, or gain an additional move action to buff it further, etc.

My Duty is My Life - Greater defense and/or offense against chaotic aligned creatures.

[Lawless III]

I usually go with Swordsage. But, as Zombimode already mentioned, it's really a matter of your perception of a samurai.

[imp_fireball]

I usually go with Swordsage. But, as Zombimode already mentioned, it's really a matter of your perception of a samurai.

Yah sword sage is all about using swords and being a sage. Hence, the wis attribute, hence the whole 'perfection' angle rather then the duty sorta thing.

Also, they've got more maneuvers then warblades who are straight up tankers, but meh.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

For the design I'm thinking, very stereotypical.

Scale armor, katana, possibly wakizashi and yumi as well, but definitely katana. Quickdraw and the ability to intimidate would be excellent, but a way to do that better than the CW version would be great. PsyWar might be able to do it, but I worry about the loss of BAB.

The idea is that he's one of the islanders from a pseudo-Japanese culture that's been colonized by another culture and converted to the worship of Pelor. The colonizing culture is pseudo-Spaniards, so I'm aiming to make him similar to one of the Christian samurai converted by the Jesuit priests, as depicted in the book "Shogun".

EDIT: I also kinda want to avoid ToB for this particular build, as I want to keep it simple for now. I've already got a Warblade in a PBP, so I'd rather not right now.

[JaronK]

Warblade. Avoid Tiger Claw manuevers. Take White Raven Tactics (cause it's awesome) and focus mostly on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart manuevers. Good to go.

JaronK

[Zombimode]

For the design I'm thinking, very stereotypical.

Scale armor, katana, possibly wakizashi and yumi as well, but definitely katana. Quickdraw and the ability to intimidate would be excellent, but a way to do that better than the CW version would be great. PsyWar might be able to do it, but I worry about the loss of BAB.

This stereotypical pop-culture image is fine of course.

A more historical approach would be a mounted archer or a polearm fighter.

[Lawless III]

Yah sword sage is all about using swords and being a sage. Hence, the wis attribute, hence the whole 'perfection' angle rather then the duty sorta thing.

Also, they've got more maneuvers then warblades who are straight up tankers, but meh.

a) Given that most DnD games are fantasies, not period pieces, a "samurai" is no longer a slave to historical accuracy. So,IMHO, Samurai Jack and Samurai Champloo are both legitimate places to draw inspiration for a samurai in your DnD game.

b) Even arguing for historical accuracy, many Samurai were Buddhists, so perfecting oneself would be a realistic ideal for them. (Not to mention the romanticizing of Ronin and that whole approach to Samurai.)

In summation, a swordsage could as much be flavored a Samurai as any other ToB class.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Would the OA Samurai be better for this? As stated, I really don't want to use ToB.

[JaronK]

The only problem with Swordsages is the limited amount of armor. Then again, a Samurai likely wouldn't walk around the country side in full armor anyway, so it might work.

But yeah, in war you'd use a bow or pole arm. Katanas were personal weapons that were easier to carry than pole arms, so they were a personal defense weapon. Wakasashis were the next step down, used when in close quarters (such as in a hallway).

Not that there's anything wrong with being Samurai Jack... in which case the light armor is fine.

JaronK

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Would the OA Samurai be better for this? As stated, I really don't want to use ToB.

OA Samurai could work, though you'd have to adapt the Rokugan clan bonus feat lists to fit your setting, or just give them access to the Fighter feat list. Most characters who take this class will either just dip 1-2 levels for the Daisho and maybe better saves/skills at 1st level, or take enough to get into Iaijutsu Master to abuse Iaijutsu Focus damage. Even then, Factotum makes for a better IF build, so OA Samurai is best left as a 1 or 2 level class. For E6, the ancestral daisho is horribly gimped unless you allow a virtual level advancement for it. Even then you're probably better off going something like OA Samurai 2/ Warblade 4 to get a 3rd level stance without spending a feat on it.

[Yukitsu]

a) Given that most DnD games are fantasies, not period pieces, a "samurai" is no longer a slave to historical accuracy. So,IMHO, Samurai Jack and Samurai Champloo are both legitimate places to draw inspiration for a samurai in your DnD game.

They are decently accurate for late era, non-soldier mercenaries in Japan anyway, so it's not as though that matters.


b) Even arguing for historical accuracy, many Samurai were Buddhists, so perfecting oneself would be a realistic ideal for them. (Not to mention the romanticizing of Ronin and that whole approach to Samurai.)

They were mostly Shinto for most of their history.

PRC mashup of wild plains outrider, order of the bow initiate and cavalier is probably the best representation. Any class to get in would be fine.

[Tyrmatt]

While it's hardly super-optimal, I always put the Kensai Fighter as the "traditional" samurai, dating back to 2E.
Have a glance at this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866298/The_Kensais_Handbook) for a handbook on starting out.

[sonofzeal]

Honestly, I've always rather liked Fighter/Monk gestalts for the Samurai. Note too that the bow was one of the key distinctive Samurai weapons for a large section of their history. I'd let him flurry with his sword, use Decisive Strike (PHB2 monk variant) with a bow, and possibly even use Stunning Fist with either.

Of course, that all depends on general campaign power level and whatnot.

[awa]

keep in mind separating Shinto and Buddhism was something that didn't really happen till latter on most samurai would have been a mixture of the too becuase you didn't say im Shinto or im Buddhist you said this is the way the world functions as much as the sun rising and setting its just a fact of life.

Also if you don't want to use tom of battle the oriental samurai is not bad Compared to a fighter) its got a better will save and more skill points and all it loses is one feat.

[Godskook]

What's your DM's rules on multiclassing? Cause a CW Samurai isn't a bad 2 level dip, and then you can grab something else to round out the character. 2 feats in 2 levels is pretty good, and not only that, you're getting TWF without prerequisites, which may or may not be valuable to you and your rolls.

[sonofzeal]

keep in mind separating Shinto and Buddhism was something that didn't really happen till latter on most samurai would have been a mixture of the too becuase you didn't say im Shinto or im Buddhist you said this is the way the world functions as much as the sun rising and setting its just a fact of life.

Also if you don't want to use tom of battle the oriental samurai is not bad Compared to a fighter) its got a better will save and more skill points and all it loses is one feat.
Depends on the time period, really.

Honestly, I like the current arrangement (which is pretty near to your description). To my understanding, the default is for people to have Shinto ceremonies for birth, for coming-of-age, for marriage, and then have a Buddhist funeral. Shinto is seen as more about life and living, and Buddhism as more about the internal and the beyond.

I'm not Japanese and don't live in Japan though, so take that with a healthy grain of salt.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

What's your DM's rules on multiclassing? Cause a CW Samurai isn't a bad 2 level dip, and then you can grab something else to round out the character. 2 feats in 2 levels is pretty good, and not only that, you're getting TWF without prerequisites, which may or may not be valuable to you and your rolls.

Multiclassing is completely open, it just has to make sense. So CW Samurai followed by four levels of Fighter or Monk would be good. Monk would lose an attack and gain unarmored AC and some unarmed tricks, Fighter would get mad feats. There's probably a better way to do it, maybe even Archery Ranger, allowing for sword and bow goodness.

[Godskook]

Multiclassing is completely open, it just has to make sense. So CW Samurai followed by four levels of Fighter or Monk would be good. Monk would lose an attack and gain unarmored AC and some unarmed tricks, Fighter would get mad feats. There's probably a better way to do it, maybe even Archery Ranger, allowing for sword and bow goodness.

Also note that Samurai 2 has no class features that are 'lost' when moving into a non-lawful alignment. That means that you could also dip barbarian for pounce at no penalty. Which with full BAB and TWF, would be pretty decent.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Considering the setting, actually, CW Samurai 2 / Barbarian 4 would be fitting, as all non-Iberians are perceived as somewhat barbaric. Also, Samurai can totally get angry. Whirling Frenzy would be even better, as it emulates Flurry with the katana. Call it something other than rage, like No Mind, and it all fits nicely.

Anyone see any way this could be improved?

[Knaight]

Sounds excellent to me. Given that we are talking about E6 here, you can eventually cover all the angles as well. Whirling Frenzy, Pounce, and CW samurai 1 and 2 cover the two weapon fighting side very well with a few feats, make sure to take skills in ride, some knowledges, etc, use Open Mind if necessary, and then dabble in archery and polearms later. A Barbarian makes a remarkably good archer, given the additional movement, the avoidance of heavy armor that takes it away, and enough hit points to get in archer duels with relative safety. Rage even helps to some extent, assuming a composite bow built for it.

[deuxhero]

Would the OA Samurai be better for this? As stated, I really don't want to use ToB.

Knight (PHBII, and free as an excerpt) works pretty well as far as non-ToB goes (why you would want to play a non-ToB melee I don't know).

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Knight (PHBII, and free as an excerpt) works pretty well as far as non-ToB goes (why you would want to play a non-ToB melee I don't know).

Sometimes I just don't like using maneuvers. I play melee to avoid tracking extraneous information, like spells, and maneuvers counteract that.

[ghashxx]

The knight class seems like it'd be your best bet when combined with some archery and the feat that actually allows you to draw and strike in the same move, leaving your foe flat footed in the process (Flick of the Wrist). However, this only applies to light weapons and katanas are not light weapons...though it's not overpowered or anything so whatever.

But yeah, definitely the knight class with some re-fiddling.

[taltamir]

1. play a fighter, crusader, swordsage, barbarian, etc...
2. have a master, call him daimyo
3. refer to yourself as a samurai.

[The Glyphstone]

1. play a fighter, crusader, swordsage, barbarian, etc...
2. have a master, call him daimyo
3. refer to yourself as a samurai.

What is this 'Japan' that you speak of?

[randomhero00]

If you want to play a realistic version of a samurai:

1. Use a bow as your primary weapon in battle

2. Use a polearm as your secondary

3. Use a Katana as your tertiary

4. And lastly have some skill in grappling

Best class would be straight up fighter with feats focusing on the above.

[taltamir]

What is this 'Japan' that you speak of?

Did I ever say japan? I am obviously referring to azure city. besides which... the op asked about samurai specifically.

Samurai (侍?) is the term for the military nobility of pre-industrial Japan

[Maeglin_Dubh]

If you want to play a realistic version of a samurai:

1. Use a bow as your primary weapon in battle

2. Use a polearm as your secondary

3. Use a Katana as your tertiary

4. And lastly have some skill in grappling

Best class would be straight up fighter with feats focusing on the above.

I don't intend to be fully-historically accurate, though. I would like to play a fighter this versatile someday, but for this character I want him to be immediately and stereotypically identifiable.

[JaronK]

Unfortunately Warblade really is the best "stereotypical samurai." Diamond Mind maneuvers are basically samurai themed. But with that said, what about OA Samurai 2/Factotum 4? That would admittedly only give 5 BAB, but you could max Iajuitsu Focus while having a wide variety of skills, so that's something.

JaronK

[sonofzeal]

I know it uses some ToB rules and you don't want that, but....

Speaking as an iaidoka myself, this homebrew class (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19524758/Custom_Samurai_Class) is the best attempt at capturing Samurainess I've ever seen in 3.5 D&D. Seriously, I highly recommend it.

[Harperfan7]

Diamond Mind swordsage with unnerving calm.

[taltamir]

I don't intend to be fully-historically accurate, though. I would like to play a fighter this versatile someday, but for this character I want him to be immediately and stereotypically identifiable.

show this picture to your buddies and tell them this is what he looks like:
http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/culture/images/samurai.jpg

the only stereotypical thing about samurai is the way they dress, and that they wield a katana as their primary weapon (despite being historically wrong, as said before katana was a their 3rd choice..)
Clothe fluff is FREE... so just write on your character that his armor and clothes looks like a samurai's armor and give him a katana.


If you want to play a realistic version of a samurai:

1. Use a bow as your primary weapon in battle

2. Use a polearm as your secondary

3. Use a Katana as your tertiary

4. And lastly have some skill in grappling

Best class would be straight up fighter with feats focusing on the above.

a fighter is indeed a very good choice, he gets a ton of feats.
A fighter who at level 1 chooses "improved unarmed strike" and "exotic weapon proficiency: katana" is for all intents and purposes a historically accurate samurai. Arm him with a bow, polearm, and a katana...

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Superior Unarmed Strike for some real shenanigans.


Also, Improved Disarm and Snatch Weapon would allow for some 'no sword' maneuvers.

[Math_Mage]

(whatever the Japanese word for 'emotional intensity' is applying to samurai demonstrations in real life... starts with a Z) - Intimidate as a swift action.

Zanshin, if nobody's mentioned it already.


My Duty is My Life - Greater defense and/or offense against chaotic aligned creatures.

Should have a name based off of Bushido. "Honor unto death", perhaps--I'm just stealing from the Wiki page at this point.

[FlamingKobold]

Step 1: Go to homebrew board.

Step 2: Find "Samurai Redux" by Bhu. It's an amazing and balanced class.

Step 3: Get it approved by your DM.

Step 4: Be awesome.


If you want to rage, a better class would be the Sohei, which gets "Ki Frenzy."

[Krazddndfreek]

Step 1: Go to homebrew board.

Step 2: Find "Samurai Redux" by Bhu. It's an amazing and balanced class.

Step 3: Get it approved by your DM.

Step 4: Be awesome.


If you want to rage, a better class would be the Sohei, which gets "Ki Frenzy."

+1 to this. Bhu's Samurai Redux is the most extensive and ambitious project I've ever seen. He has a huge hosts of feats and PrC's for it as well.

[imp_fireball]

Maybe I should give my garbage list to Bhu and he can put all that in there somewhere.

[FlamingKobold]

Maybe I should give my garbage list to Bhu and he can put all that in there somewhere.

He might already have a lot of it. His work is extensive and totally amazing. Check it out.