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balistafreak
2010-04-04, 02:21 PM
Apparently, this is a terribly broken super-awesome way to add lots and lots of benefits to a character, at minimal cost.

Let me go over it, both so I can mull over it and also to present to you what it entails.

Basics of Necropolitan

Necropolitan is an acquired template from the book Libris Mortis. Essentially, you give up life for undeath. It's that simple, fluffwise, but the mechanics are a bit more complicated.

When you become a Necropolitan, your type changes to Undead, and you gain the Augmented subtye, for what it's worth. (Apparently nothing, just a name.)

While your HD changes to d12, your Constitution becomes (-), so you have an average of 6.5 HP per HD. Equivalent is a d8 HD with a +2 Constitution Modifier, like a Ranger with 14 Constitution. A d10 HD with a +2 Constitution modifier (14 Constitution) is better (7.5 HP per HD) and isn't at all hard to grab, so becoming a tougher Fighter is not the purpose of this template.

Your BAB, saves, and skill points all remain the same, though, which is often a straight improvement over the standard undead subtype of 1/2 BAB, good Will save, and 4 skill points. (Ironically, it appears that a typical Necropolitan is a wizard. A straight wizard would appreciate 2 extra skill points.)

Also, you naturally heal hitpoint and ability damage like a living creature, despite being undead, which is a small advantage. You can't use the Heal skill to help you, though; then again, the Heal skill was pretty much useless already in the face of spells. Magical healing will have to come in the form of negative energy.

Becoming a Necropolitan involves a ritual, the costs of which are your biological life, one entire level ala Raise Dead, and an additional 1000 XP on top of that as a last insult. If you run out of levels and XP (aka try to become at Necropolitan right upon becoming level 2 with only 1000 XP to your name), instead of rising up as a Necropolitan, you explode with no method of resurrection. So yeah. Don't do that.

As an undead, you have*deep breath*:

Benefits!
Darkvision to 60ft.
Immunity to mind-effecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Immunity to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as ability damage.
Immunity to Fortitude saves that don't effect objects. Disintegrate will blow you to pieces, though.
Charisma modifier to Concentration checks. This is a nice bonus for many casters.
Can be Resurrected (as in the spell) into your original living form. What this might entail can get confusing.
No need to eat, breathe, or sleep, although casters still need eight hours of "rest". As long as the rest of your party is biological, this should not be a problem, and you might want to rest to get a few extra hitpoints anyways. Remember, you heal naturally!

Cons...
Vunerability to anti-undead effects such as turning. Nothing says "embarassing end" like getting turned by the BBEG and promptly exploding. Fortunately, Necropolitan gets +2 to turn resistance and +2 to will saves on Control Undead effects, but still be careful, anyways.
Aside from turning and Control Undead, there are plenty of other things that are specifically meant to kill undead. Like Disrupting weapons, which force you to make a Fortitude save (and yours really, really sucks!) or instantly explode, Don't get in melee with anyone with a glowing sword.
Speaking of Fortitude saves, don't get Disintegrated either. There's probably some sort of method of blocking this, but I can't think of it right now. Probably something involving Contingency.
And the big one: dropping to 0 hit points instantly kills/destroys you. Be careful out there.

The Necromancer makes the Necropolitan

In the same book as the Necropolitan is a line of feats starting with Corpsecrafter. Each of these feats adds benefits to "undead that the character creates". While it can be argued that a necromancer doesn't create an undead, but changes something alive into one, that would pretty much cross off every single undead in existence from the list.

Technically, these benefits cost you nothing, since the creator has taken these feats, and is only applying these feats to you. I suppose that if you could come up with a good reason/background, your DM might let you have some of them.

These benefits range start with +4 Strength and +2 HP per HD from Corpsecrafter. Additional feats give:

+4 Turn Resistance. Can't hurt.
+1d6 cold damage on natural attacks. Probably not relevant for you as a caster (unless you want to punch something in the face; a Necropolitan monk might be a curiosity), and the implications of being naturally cold enough to cause damage are unclear.
The ability to explode in a burst of negative energy when you die. This should never, ever, happen to you, but it might have some oddball implications.
+2 Natural Armor. That's awesome.
+4 to Initiative and a +10 ft. untyped bonus to speed. Improved Initative for free (and you can still take the feat proper for a total of +8, to never, ever, be last in combat) is always a good idea, and being faster all the time is nothing but awesome. Throw in the Quick trait (you'll still be just as tough if not tougher than a regular caster with a mere 5.5 HP per HD) for 50 ft. speed.

Make your creator a Dread Necromancer8+, and you'll receive +4 to Strength and Dexterity, as well as another +2 HP per HD. The +4's from Strength won't stack with each other, but you'll still get the additional Dexterity and HP.

Throw in a Desecrate into your creation, and get a final +2 HP per HD.

Now, obviously having all those bonuses will make you patently ridiculous. You'll be getting 12.5 HP per HD on average, just like you had a +6 Constitution modifier. You might out-Dexterity the party Ranger/Rogue, and these benefits make even a Necropolitan melee-type viable. But seeing as Necropolitans lend themselves to casters anyways, perhaps the greatest use is simply negating most of the -6 to Strength and Dexterity that being Venerable gives you.

Just don't say I didn't warn you when the DM throws your copy of Libris Mortis in the trash.

Implications of Becoming Necropolitan

You essentially have LA +1, maybe more like +1.8 if you became a Necropolitan at 3rd level. Go out and stomp a monster or two to fix that - XP is a river, after all, you gain more of it in a party when you're a lower level, shooting you back up fast enough. When creating a character initially, the fact that Necropolitans actually have LA +0 means that becoming a Necropolitan "whateverraceyou'rethinkingof" has no cost other than becoming, well, a Necropolitan. All of your class abilities will be just as powerful, you'll just also be undead.

You get a LOT of immunities at the cost of a few major weaknesses. Is there a term such as "glass wall"? Because you're tough, but can instantly die/suck in many ways that are irrelevant to the average breathing party of meatsacks. I mean people.

No Constitution scores means that you can dump the stat and laugh it off. When doing a point-buy, this means that you can put 0 points into Constitution and pretend you have. A Necropolitan d4 HD caster essentially gets a Constitution of 18 - 2.5 per HD + 4 yields the 6.5 per HD a Necropolitan gets.

You might want to keep your Dexterity up, at the very least, to keep your AC up and make hitting with ranged attacks easier.

Strength shouldn't be important because you shouldn't be a fighter, but it's not as if there isn't ever a use for more Strength.

Since Charisma is used for Concentration now, that stat might become a little more important for a non-Charisma caster. A Charisma caster probably has this as his/her highest stat already, so yeah.

Keep in mind that the biggest hit of aging, the loss of Constitution, is completely negated by becoming a Necropolitan. If you become Venerable before you become a Necropolitan, you can add even more points to your mental stats. Strength still isn't important for a caster (although get too low and you'll have to play the equipment subgame, which isn't fun at all) and at higher levels your Dexterity will be basically irrelevant, with enough BAB or items to get your AC up or make ranged touch attacks hit.

Basics of Spellstitched

Spellstitched is a bit grayer in terms of using it as a PC. Appliable only to an Undead, there's no Level Adjustment listed, only a Challenge Rating adjustment.

However, there's a set of crafting rules, namely a creation process that requires Craft Wondrous Item, a massive XP cost of 1000 + 500xWisdom of the affected creature (which WILL be high, especially if you're a PC, generally ranging from at least 4000 for a Wisdom of 6 to a level-crushing 10000 for a Wisdom of 18). Less relevantly, it takes days equal to the Wisdom score of the creature, but more relevantly, the creator needs to be able to cast the spells that are to be imbued (a spell-stitched's major feature), which is a huge question when it comes to creation.

Depending on the creature's base Wisdom, if 10 or higher, it can be imbued with spells that it can use as spell-like abilities, which must be from the Conjuration, Evocation, or Necromancy schools. Depending on the Wisdom of the creature, higher level spells can be imbued - you need a Wisdom of 19 to get the highest possible, a 6th level spell-like ability.

Uses per day are fixed regardless of Wisdom, however, and are able to be used less and less often as the level of the spell rises, from 4/day for 1st level spells and 1/day to 6th level spells. Caster level is equal to the creature's HD, which manages to nullify the effectiveness of many direct-damage spells and limit the usefulness of buffs (shortened durations) but usually fails to change things like save-or-sucks (you never needed Hold Person to last more than one round anyways before the poor sod got coup-de-graced). Take those for maximum usefulness.

This ability can range from relatively innocuous (something like Bless Water would be quite amusing to have as an undead, or perhaps Hide from Undead for even greater irony) to useful (buffs and such) to dangerous (you have three schools; find the most broken spell you can think of and have it as a spell-like).

One thing to note when picking your Spellstitched abilities (if you can, that is; your DM might want to do so himself) is that as spell-like abilities, they have no components whatsoever. No verbal, no somatic, no material, no focus, no XP. Casting these spells as Silent/Stilled is already pretty awesome, but being able to cast Animate Dead without shelling out for ridiculous amounts of Black Onyx? Priceless.

Less prominently but just as important is that sufficent HD (at least 4) grants you damage reduction 5/magic or silver (magic and silver at HD 12). (Note: this appears to be in doubt. Even RAI is apparently contested on this one, so feel free to discuss.)

More vexing is that you have Spell Resistance of 12 + Charisma modifier; vexing for both your foes and possibly your allies, if they want to cast something like a buff or hit you with some negative energy for a heal. Remember that dropping spell resistance is a standard action, which is face-palmingly bad in a combat situation when you could be using that standard action to kill something. You can still cast heals/buffs on yourself, though, without the standard action. Incidentally, it says nothing as to when spell resistance comes back up; instantly, I presume?

Oh, and you also get a further +2 to turn resistance (which is cumulative) and a +2 profane bonus to saving throws, which is nothing but gravy.

Implications of Becoming Spellstitched

If your party already thought you were weird for being an undead, this will only solidify their opinion. Assuming you can find someone to cast the spells you want to have, and is willing to pay the soul-crushing XP cost, you essentially gain many permanent bonuses at no opportunity cost, unlike when you became an undead, trading the pros and cons of being alive for the pros and cons of being undead. Spellstitched is nothing but gain, basically like a magic item that you always have. (Okay, so someone can "see the runes on your body" with a DC 15 Spot check, but seeing as you were undead already it's quite likely that that detail is more important to them.)

That's basically all there is to it. If you decided to become undead, there's no reason not to become Spellstitched at the first possible opportunity.

(Corpsecrafted) (Spellstiched) Necropolitans in Gameplay

Here I run out of theory-steam, having never played one.

Obviously, you're an undead, making social situations EXTREMELY awkward. Having a high Charisma and lots of social skills might help in a much more forgiving environment, but fully expect the torches and pitchforks wherever you go. Consider investing ranks in Disguise, although you'll most likely given a -2 penalty, unless you count being undead as a "minor detail". (Unlikely.)

You'll be the aforementioned "glass wall". Especially if you've managed to conceal the fact that you're undead, chuckle when someone tries to sneak attack you, or cast something like a Suggestion on you. (That being said, your DM needs to be smart in a non-PC bashing way to have this happen.) Then cringe the moment a cleric shows up and tries to turn you, or someone whips out a Disrupting weapon, or even when your hitpoints run low, because remember, you INSTANTLY EXPLODE. NO NEGATIVE HITPOINTS. AT ALL.

60 ft. Darkvision is always helpful. No exceptions.

Even "XP is a river" will have a tough time regaining your XP if you Spellstitched yourself. If you're doing it yourself, definitely Thought Bottle. If you want spells that you can't normally cast, consider lending out a Thought Bottle to the gallant soul who undertakes the deed.

As for being Spellstitched, there are some major questions that have to be answered before you can proceed. Just who made you? Why do you have the spells imbued that you do? If they were a PC, how did they regain the XP? Heck, if they were a Cohort from Leadership, what does that mean? Many of these are unanswered, which probably is a reason why Spellstitched seems to be so rare/frowned upon, as if not having a Level Adjustment was bad enough.

As for in gameplay, being Spellstiched doesn't affect too much socially. You're already an undead, after all. But at lower levels (perhaps even level 2/ECL 1 for you) being Spellstitched with a 5th/6th level spell can be stupidly good for obvious reasons. With no clear LA, it's unclear what you'd have to do to create a new character with Spellstitched.

The Legality of Making a (Corpsecrafted) (Spellstitched) Necropolitan

Ranked in order of most to least grey in terms of legality.

First of all, becoming a Necropolitan is generally impossible at 1st level. You'll need to have a few levels underneath your belt before the option even becomes possible.

Corpsecrafted offers a hojillion benefits for no cost, as long as you can find someone with the feats. That might be hard, but then again getting the benefits obviously means that someone had to do it, kind of like attempting to answer the chicken-egg question by producing the egg first.

Spellstitched has a massive XP cost that your DM might force someone in the party to pay, but then again you might find a way to have some poor NPC do it for you. Probably the poor schmuck awesome necromancer who Corpsecrafted you in the first place. If YOU Spellstitch yourself, the massive XP cost will have you dragging way behind, multiple levels even, desite the fact that "XP is a river", and don't forget that you won't have any spell-like abilities that you couldn't already cast. Kind of like shelling out for extra-spell slots. It's really in your best interest to Spellstitch things you normally wouldn't be able to cast, either if it's because they're not on your spelllist or they're above the level of spells you can cast.

Necropolitan is however clearly spelled right out, and a DM who refuses to let you undergo the ritual probably needs to spell the reason out.


1st

Extended Prestidigitation. Because having Prestidigitation all day long is cool. Sure, the effects are replicable with a cheap item, but having it innate is even cooler. That, and the 1st-level slot is cheap enough. However, since this is a "universal" spell, it's unclear about whether it can be taken. Does "universal" mean that you can take it with only three normally allowed schools, or does it mean that you can't, because it isn't one of those three schools? Hmmmm.

Lesser Restoration. Yes, this is a 1st level spell on the Paladin list. How you justify a paladin Spellstiching an undead is what we call a "creative exercise."

(Extended) Floating Disk. Because having a disk that floats around with you to carry your junk is awesome, just like Prestidigitation. Finding creative things to do with a disk is even better. Extending it might be useful, but your 2nd level slots are precious, so perhaps not.

Summon Undead Line. If Animating dead wasn't good enough for you, keep in mind with the Conjuration school you can just summon them in.

2nd

Wings of Cover. This is how you avoid getting blown to smithereens by a Disintegrate. As an immediate action, you grant yourself total cover from a single attack, which means that most targetted spells and attacks requiring a line of effect auto-fail. If you're in an area of effect, you still get +8 AC and +4 to reflex saves.

Gentle Repose. Like Prestidigitation, this might be better taken as an eternal wand or simply cast yourself, but this means that as an undead you don't randomly rot all over the place and stink.

(De)(Con)secrate. Bypass the material cost in the name of awesome. While Consecrating might be a terrible tactical decision, Desecrating is basically a standard-action buff for you, that fits under the Evocation school.

Continual Flame. Yet another material-cost bypasser, but probably the weakest of them all. Making lights in your spare time is probably not what you want to be doing with 2nd level spell slots.

3rd

Stinking Cloud. You don't breathe. Cast it centered on yourself and watch everyone suck around you.

Animate Dead. No material cost, and I don't think I have to go into detail about the usefulness of undead minions. Do it in an area you've already Desecrated for maximum efficency.

4th

Lesser Planar Ally. You don't need to pay an XP cost for this, although the implications of free Planar Binding might have your DM hit you in the face.

Wings of Flurry (Races of the Dragon). A classic Evocation spell that simply pwns. All targets you select in a 30ft. burst, centered on you, take (casterlevel)xd6 untyped (aka force) damage, Reflex halves. And if they are so unlucky as to fail that save, they're dazed for a turn. Totally awesome, and might I mention that the damage is uncapped? Since all your HD count for Spellstitched SLAs, this means this spell goes all the way up to 20. The only problem this spell has is that while it's a 30ft. burst, its a 30ft. burst centered on you, meaning that casting this means you're within 30ft of your targets. At least you have d12 HD and extra health from being Corpsecrafted. You did get yourself Corpsecrafted, right?

5th

Raise Dead. Forget 5K worth of diamonds, free rezs, here we come! Oh, and this makes raising random corpses you find viable. Get yourself a reptuation of returning people to life or something.

Revivify. The small-window counterpart to Raise Dead, it has the advantage of not causing level loss. You could take both, but that seems kind of wasteful.

(Un)Hallow. The casting lasts a year, and you can weave one of a dozen other spells into it. Like Raise Dead you sidestep an immense material cost. This is cool. Get it.

Cloudkill. While Raise Dead and (Un)Hallow might have already taken up your two slots, this is a more offensive option. Cast it and walk with it as it moves. You don't care - you don't breathe!

Revive Undead. If you're feeling attached to your undead, or *gasp* have party members who are undead right alongside of you, this replaces Raise Dead.

6th

Planar Ally. Like its little brother but worse.

Wall of Iron. The whole industry of breaking down Walls of Iron just got a lot funnier.

Heal/Harm. This is a classic spell that generally finds a use somehow. The implications of access to a spell that (generally) makes you die instantly (Heal) are also qute interesting.

Create Undead. Like Animate Dead, but better.

Circle of Death. This normally expensive offensive option just got a lot cheaper. Alternatively, take its anti-undeath counterpart, Undeath to Death, for the lulz.

Awaken Undead. This isn't a particularly powerful choice, but there's simply something cool about Awakening the undead you're Animating for free already. Oh, yeah, you're also Awakening them with no XP cost. Tactically the Intelligence score is a bit low to be of great use, and the +2 turn/control undead resistance is only situationally useful, but Awakening them also might let you relinquish direct control over them and still have them follow your orders, letting you "control" even more undead, so yeah.

That's all I can think of. Please answer the questions I've raised, point out any corrections that need to be made, and generally discuss either part of this apparently infamous combination. Thank you all! :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2010-04-04, 02:44 PM
Typically its understood that the best time to become a necropolitan is 3rd level. When you are Raised, you are treated as having lost a level. The rules for level loss are thus:


Level Loss
A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.

The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.


So, being revived as a Necropolitan would put you at the halfway point between 2nd and 3rd, or 2000 xp even. Then you apply the -1000 XP loss from the ritual which would put you at exactly 1000 xp, the exact amount needed to maintain level 2. Total xp lost is 2000 plus however far into 3rd level you were when you undertook the ritual.

If you waited till 4th level, you would drop to 3rd level at the half way mark, or 4500 XP. Then the loss of 1000 XP would put you at 3500 XP, for a net lost of 2500 XP, 500 more than if you had undergone the ritual at 3rd level. Every level above that results in a loss of 500 MORE xp than the level before.

Being lower level is a bit of a liability, especially given how fragile Necropolitans can be at low levels, but if your DM does xp strictly by the book (some do, some don't), you would recieve MORE xp from encounters your party overcomes due to the fact that you are lower level. This will help you bridge the gap with within 1k or so depending on how the levels fall with the challenges you face.

For example, if your party of 4 are all 4th level, and you are 3rd level because of the Necro transformation, and you kill a troll (CR6), your 3 party members would get 2400/4 xp = 600 each, while you would get 2700/4 xp, or 675 xp. There is an entire thread on this titled "XP is a river" somewhere over on the BG forums, IIRC.

Same principle with Spellstiching. By the time you are gonna think about it, about 8th to 12th level, the XP delta between levels is high enough that you'll be behind for a level or 3, but you'll eventually catch up.

Also, as a side note, you PERSONALLY never have issues affecting yourself with your own spells regardless of SR. In other words, you always automatically overcome your own SR, allowing you to buff or heal yourself with no chance of failure.

Volthawk
2010-04-04, 02:53 PM
Augmented doesn't have in-game mechanical effects, it just sorta makes it easy to know what you were like beforehand.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-04, 03:00 PM
First and foremost, when a template refers to HD it always refers to Racial HD unless it specifies character level or class levels. Therefore RAI a Spellstitched PC will not gain DR unless they're a race which has at least that many racial HD. This is not explicitly spelled out so there are boatloads of RAW arguments against it, but the designers have made it clear that this is how they intended templates to work.

Be sure your Necropolitan template was granted by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with the entire Corpsecrafter line of feats from LM, in the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present. That will grant the following additional benefits, free of charge:

+6 HP/level (Corspecrafter, DN, Desecrate)
+4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity (DN)
+4 Turn Resistance (Bolster Resistance)
+1d6 Cold damage with natural weapons (Deadly Chill)
+2 Natural Armor (Hardened Flesh)
+4 Initiative, unnamed (Nimble Bones)
+10 ft. base land speed, unnamed (Nimble Bones)


If the base creature is a Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Planetouched, or Spirit Folk, you can take the feat Magic in the Blood from PGtF and all of your 1/day racial spell-like abilities become 3/day instead. That means if your 1st and 2nd level Spellstitched spell-like abilities are split 1/3/day (rather than 2/2/day), it will instead become 3/3/day since anything granted by a template is considered racial. Your 3rd-5th level Spellstitched spell-like abilities will go from 1/1/day to 3/3/day, and your 6th level will also be 3/day. All for a single feat and maybe two ranks in Kn: Local since it is a regional feat, and keep in mind that it must be taken at 1st level.

You could use Lesser Aasimar from PGtF as the base creature, which gets everything the MM Aasimar gets except that it's Humanoid instead of Outsider at a +0 LA. That gives you bonuses to Wisdom and Charisma for better Spellstitched bonuses, and it qualifies for Magic in the Blood.


The only plausible course of character classes for this would be any kind of arcane spellcaster with the Tainted Scholar prestige class from Heroes of Horror. Being undead you'll be completely immune to the negative effects of taint. Your spell DCs and bonus spells will be based on your Corruption and Depravity scores, which can become nigh-infinite on an undead character, especially considering that the act of casting a spell will increase your depravity. A generalist Wizard would certainly be the strongest choice for this character.

balistafreak
2010-04-04, 03:18 PM
First and foremost, when a template refers to HD it always refers to Racial HD unless it specifies character level or class levels. Therefore RAI a Spellstitched PC will not gain DR unless they're a race which has at least that many racial HD. This is not explicitly spelled out so there are boatloads of RAW arguments against it, but the designers have made it clear that this is how they intended templates to work.

No damage resistance, then? Mmm. A loss.


Be sure your Necropolitan template was granted by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with the entire Corpsecrafter line of feats from LM, in the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present. That will grant the following additional benefits, free of charge:

+6 HP/level (Corspecrafter, DN, Desecrate)
+4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity (DN)
+4 Turn Resistance (Bolster Resistance)
+1d6 Cold damage with natural weapons (Deadly Chill)
+2 Natural Armor (Hardened Flesh)
+4 Initiative, unnamed (Nimble Bones)
+10 ft. base land speed, unnamed (Nimble Bones)



What. That's like... a hojillion bonus feats. But how would that fall under character creation? Making an NPC, sure, full stop, but I suspect that a PC would have to argue reaaaaaly hard to change this without being overpowered.


If the base creature is a Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Planetouched, or Spirit Folk, you can take the feat Magic in the Blood from PGtF and all of your 1/day racial spell-like abilities become 3/day instead. That means if your 1st and 2nd level Spellstitched spell-like abilities are split 1/3/day (rather than 2/2/day), it will instead become 3/3/day since anything granted by a template is considered racial. Your 3rd-5th level Spellstitched spell-like abilities will go from 1/1/day to 3/3/day, and your 6th level will also be 3/day. All for a single feat and maybe two ranks in Kn: Local since it is a regional feat, and keep in mind that it must be taken at 1st level.

That is also absurd. I'd like 3/day 6th level spell-likes, please... but does becoming Undead prevent you from taking this feat? Because it seems like it would. I'll go check later.


You could use Lesser Aasimar from PGtF as the base creature, which gets everything the MM Aasimar gets except that it's Humanoid instead of Outsider at a +0 LA. That gives you bonuses to Wisdom and Charisma for better Spellstitched bonuses, and it qualifies for Magic in the Blood.

I can't seem to find the actual Aasimar statline in PGtF. Maybe it's in Races of Faerun?


The only plausible course of character classes for this would be any kind of arcane spellcaster with the Tainted Scholar prestige class from Heroes of Horror.

Why? Just wondering. Perhaps mechanically that's super awesome, but storywise nothing really forces you to do this. Heck, even the whole Necropolitan/Wizard thing isn't necessarily true.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-04, 03:58 PM
No damage resistance, then? Mmm. A loss.
It also means Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial PCs don't get any spell-like abilities. Many people just ignore the whole only-racial-HD part, most out of ignorance, but it's not extremely unbalancing to allow class levels to grant abilities from level adjusted templates. Considering how expensive Spellstitched is, and how low its DR is compared to the level its gained at, it would work fine granting the DR for class levels.


What. That's like... a hojillion bonus feats. But how would that fall under character creation? Making an NPC, sure, full stop, but I suspect that a PC would have to argue reaaaaaly hard to change this without being overpowered.
The NPC has those feats, he turned your character (and many, many others) into a Necropolitan, and any undead he creates gains those benefits. It requires absolutely no investment on your part, those are all free bonuses. It would not be uncommon for the head guy in charge of making necropolitans for whatever sinister organization to have invested heavily in being able to create the best necropolitans possible. This is what he does professionally, he's likely been doing it for thousands of years, so of course he's going to be not just good at it, but the absolute best candidate for the position.


That is also absurd. I'd like 3/day 6th level spell-likes, please... but does becoming Undead prevent you from taking this feat? Because it seems like it would. I'll go check later.
Changing your creature type won't change your base race. A Gnome Necropolitan is still a Gnome, just an undead one. His creature type would read Undead (Augmented Humanoid (Gnome)).


I can't seem to find the actual Aasimar statline in PGtF. Maybe it's in Races of Faerun?
Page 191 details the changes for Lesser Planetouched. You use the Monster Manual Aasimar entry, modified according to what it shows in PGtF.


Why? Just wondering. Perhaps mechanically that's super awesome, but storywise nothing really forces you to do this. Heck, even the whole Necropolitan/Wizard thing isn't necessarily true.
Looking at the taint rules in HoH, being undead you automatically have corruption and depravity scores as it is. If you're an arcane spellcaster, you'd already qualify for Tainted Scholar. It is the most powerful choice mechanically, though the character may be a bit MAD starting out but you wouldn't need Int higher than 14 for the character to be playable before Tainted Scholar, and if you start high enough level to already have it you can have Int 11.

balistafreak
2010-04-04, 04:05 PM
Just had a thought.

Spellstitched Necropolitan Lesser Aasimar for minimum needed base stat, but it can be whatever Race that can get Magic in the Blood.

Get 19 Wisdom. A Venerable Lesser Aasimar only needs a base of 14 Wisdom to get this, which, while "special", is well within the Elite Array.

Be Spellstitched for Prestidigitation 15 times, and throw in 3x5 of whatever other spells you want, at 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th level as needed. I'm too lazy to think of what should go there, but you need all three 6th level slots for Hero's Feast.

Congratulations, you now have the world's best (admittedly now-undead) grandmother. Cleans like a devil, and makes three square meals a day, the likes of which you've never had before.

...

*pounds head on desk*

What was the purpose of that experiment?

balistafreak
2010-04-04, 04:49 PM
Considering how expensive Spellstitched is, and how low its DR is compared to the level its gained at, it would work fine granting the DR for class levels.

I'm not sure damage reduction 5/magic or silver is "low" at level 4 (4 HD), but it's surely not broken for the cost, I agree.


The NPC has those feats, he turned your character (and many, many others) into a Necropolitan, and any undead he creates gains those benefits. It requires absolutely no investment on your part, those are all free bonuses. It would not be uncommon for the head guy in charge of making necropolitans for whatever sinister organization to have invested heavily in being able to create the best necropolitans possible. This is what he does professionally, he's likely been doing it for thousands of years, so of course he's going to be not just good at it, but the absolute best candidate for the position.

Such a powerful organization would have little reason to let said super-necropolitans out of their grasp, though. Hmmmm. It's a nice thought. I'd love to use the super-necropolitan against the PCs, but as a PC, it would have generally have more HP than the barbarian (+6 HP per level as opposed to the maximum +4 that a barbarian probably would have normally), be better at combat besides (have a high base strength before becoming a necropolitan and you can have more than 18 strength), have more armor (+2 natural armor), have a free feat (Improved Initiative), and be just as fast as a barbarian besides (extra speed). Man, that'd be one mean necropolitan fighter.


Changing your creature type won't change your base race. A Gnome Necropolitan is still a Gnome, just an undead one. His creature type would read Undead (Augmented Humanoid (Gnome)).

Gotcha. But the idea taking in Magic in the Blood when you have none is simply amusing. :smalltongue:


Page 191 details the changes for Lesser Planetouched. You use the Monster Manual Aasimar entry, modified according to what it shows in PGtF.

So you can get +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, Darkvision, +2 Spot and Listen, Daylight, and elemental resistances with LA +0, all for the cost of being treated as a Humanoid and Outsider? That's the only change I see on 191, and that confuses me. It doesn't seem right still, but if that is indeed what you are referencing, you'll be right. It just doesn't seem very "lesser" to me. :smalltongue:


Looking at the taint rules in HoH, being undead you automatically have corruption and depravity scores as it is. If you're an arcane spellcaster, you'd already qualify for Tainted Scholar. It is the most powerful choice mechanically, though the character may be a bit MAD starting out but you wouldn't need Int higher than 14 for the character to be playable before Tainted Scholar, and if you start high enough level to already have it you can have Int 11.

Oh gods taint rules. Awesome builds aside, though, so there is no real fluff-reason, just optimization. Much as I like optimization, I try not to force the addition of further systems to get it, so that's probably the source of my antipathy. That, and tracking "taint" on the character I'm making makes me feel... well, tainted. So yeah.

As for my own questions:

Do bonuses from being Venerable transfer over into being Necropolitan? Because I can see a Council of Elders who benefit from their +3 to mental stats yet are still tough and kicking due to sidestepping the -6 Constitution. Heck, with the +4 to physical stats for an 8+ Dread Necromancer, the total -2 probably is nothing but a prominent annoyance, no more so than being nearsighted or something.

Unrelated to Necropolitans, but would you consider applying Venerable bonuses and penalties to a character is actually not that old as something odd/broken/cheesed out? I'm a sucker for the concept of the ill savant, and one who sidesteps being ill by becoming Undead (especially through a 8+ Dread Necromancer) is coming out way ahead.

Continuing in this vein, I'm of the mind to make him a Cloistered Cleric, at least base. Using E6 as a benchmark, he has six levels to play with. With endurance and long-term survivability in mind, I'd like to give him an at-will way to heal himself. The normal choice, Touch of Healing, is obviously going to be a very bad idea. I'm aware of the possibilities of a 1-level dip into Dread Necromancer for Charnel Touch, but that just seems horrible. Are there any ways to get at-will negative energy?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-04, 05:18 PM
Such a powerful organization would have little reason to let said super-necropolitans out of their grasp, though. Hmmmm. It's a nice thought. I'd love to use the super-necropolitan against the PCs, but as a PC, it would have generally have more HP than the barbarian (+6 HP per level as opposed to the maximum +4 that a barbarian probably would have normally), be better at combat besides (have a high base strength before becoming a necropolitan and you can have more than 18 strength), have more armor (+2 natural armor), have a free feat (Improved Initiative), and be just as fast as a barbarian besides (extra speed). Man, that'd be one mean necropolitan fighter.
They don't have to let him out of their grasp. One NPC has those feats, every necropolitan in the organization gets those bonuses, because that one NPC created all of them. The NPC himself actually gets none of those bonuses, because those feats do not grant himself anything, they only add bonuses to undead he creates. There is no limit to how often he can use them, so it costs the organization nothing for each necropolitan they create to have those bonuses. That one NPC who's invested all those feats gains a higher rank/status within the organization, which I'm sure he's happy about, and in exchange every necropolitan he creates including the character in question gains those bonuses.


As for my own questions:

Do bonuses from being Venerable transfer over into being Necropolitan? Because I can see a Council of Elders who benefit from their +3 to mental stats yet are still tough and kicking due to sidestepping the -6 Constitution. Heck, with the +4 to physical stats for an 8+ Dread Necromancer, the total -2 probably is nothing but a prominent annoyance, no more so than being nearsighted or something.

Unrelated to Necropolitans, but would you consider applying Venerable bonuses and penalties to a character is actually not that old as something odd/broken/cheesed out? I'm a sucker for the concept of the ill savant, and one who sidesteps being ill by becoming Undead (especially through a 8+ Dread Necromancer) is coming out way ahead.

Continuing in this vein, I'm of the mind to make him a Cloistered Cleric, at least base. Using E6 as a benchmark, he has six levels to play with. With endurance and long-term survivability in mind, I'd like to give him an at-will way to heal himself. The normal choice, Touch of Healing, is obviously going to be a very bad idea. I'm aware of the possibilities of a 1-level dip into Dread Necromancer for Charnel Touch, but that just seems horrible. Are there any ways to get at-will negative energy?

You keep your current stats when you become a Necropolitan, so -6 physical and +3 mental for being venerable would stick. Undead are not immune to unnamed penalties to their physical ability scores, so if you go past venerable after gaining necropolitan you would still get the standard bonuses and penalties.

If this is E6, nobody can be a Dread Necromancer 8+, though you could homebrew a capstone feat which grants Undead Mastery.

With either UMD or the Magic domain you could use Eternal Wands from the MIC, though no low-level arcane spells which deal negative energy damage come to mind. Someone with Lord of the Uttercold from Complete Arcane could make an Eternal Wand of Uttercold Lesser Orb of Cold, and you'd get Cold Resistance 5 from Aasimar. Someone could use Arcane Disciple: Destruction to make an Eternal Wand of Inflict Light Wounds, but that's a bit questionable. Maybe an organization of necropolitans would have someone on hand who was able to craft such an item, but otherwise good luck finding one.

balistafreak
2010-04-04, 06:35 PM
They don't have to let him out of their grasp. One NPC has those feats, every necropolitan in the organization gets those bonuses, because that one NPC created all of them. The NPC himself actually gets none of those bonuses, because those feats do not grant himself anything, they only add bonuses to undead he creates. There is no limit to how often he can use them, so it costs the organization nothing for each necropolitan they create to have those bonuses. That one NPC who's invested all those feats gains a higher rank/status within the organization, which I'm sure he's happy about, and in exchange every necropolitan he creates including the character in question gains those bonuses.

Looking back on my previous post, I realized something. I didn't say why I didn't think a super-necropolitans would be the norm. :/

To explain, I looked into the book for the ritual details. It takes a 24 hour ritual to make a necropolitan - and while it doesn't explictly state that the leader (aka our super-necropolitan maker) must be there the entire duration, it seems implied, else he wouldn't really be participating in the ritual, would he? A (larger) organization built around necropolitans might not have them all built to perfection (with a Dread Necromancer of Corpsestiching-awesome). While surely such an organization would have every reason to have a Corpsestitcher, to have him make every single one seems a bit daunting.

Then again, a smaller scale organization, something more akin to a "club", headed by such a Necromancer seems as good. Maybe he wouldn't have all the feats (if he dead, why isn't he at the head of a more powerful one? also, the cold enhancement seems a tad unnecessary, and plain annoying for intelligent undead outside of combat), but he might have some of them.


You keep your current stats when you become a Necropolitan, so -6 physical and +3 mental for being venerable would stick. Undead are not immune to unnamed penalties to their physical ability scores, so if you go past venerable after gaining necropolitan you would still get the standard bonuses and penalties.

Nice. What I meant about "sidestepping" was that you don't care about -6 to Constitution, because guess what! You don't have any!


If this is E6, nobody can be a Dread Necromancer 8+, though you could homebrew a capstone feat which grants Undead Mastery.

No, it's not E6, but I was thinking of it in terms of power; a heroicly fantastic character, but not earthshaking. Going by the whole:

1-5 Gritty Fantasy
6-10 High Fantasy
11-15 Wuxia Eastern Fantasy
16-20 Reshaping Reality Fantasy ala Cthulu

Then six levels is right where I want him. Tough enough to not randomly die, not powerful enough to do whatever he wants.


With either UMD or the Magic domain you could use Eternal Wands from the MIC, though no low-level arcane spells which deal negative energy damage come to mind. Someone with Lord of the Uttercold from Complete Arcane could make an Eternal Wand of Uttercold Lesser Orb of Cold, and you'd get Cold Resistance 5 from Aasimar. Someone could use Arcane Disciple: Destruction to make an Eternal Wand of Inflict Light Wounds, but that's a bit questionable. Maybe an organization of necropolitans would have someone on hand who was able to craft such an item, but otherwise good luck finding one.

Well, that's not awkward at all. :smallannoyed: There's got to be a feat-related way to get negative energy at-will... that isn't Charnel Touch. Heh.

But perhaps he doesn't need one. I think I've got the gist of him down now. Because I let my players grab ahold of my NPCs all the time, he needs to be as legal as I can get him to be.

Once upon a time, a long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, there was a human student at the great university of Kah, a place with literally millions of students. Not university of strictly magic (although yes, that was a subject), just one where people of all walks of life came to learn for the mere sake of learning, from the lowest goblin to the highest sphinx. Say a 10/14/8/17/17/13 statline (a 39 PB, in line with what most of my players have rolled), with the Frail flaw (even though this isn't really legal later). Probably Expert with ten Knowledge skills or something.

Of course, bad times always come eventually. Such a place of neutral learning could not last, and eventually a great evil warlord bordering on an eldritch abomination came and looted the place, not just of its physical treasures, but its greatest one of all: its minds.

The surviving students were put under a ritual that bent their physical energy into mental growth at an alarming rate. Once that was done, they were collected and subordinated into a huge nexus of thought, kind of like a supercomputer, used for research and calculation of various evil deeds. They would burn out in mere years, but at the rate the forces of evil were gathering minds, they'd conquer the world first.

Of course, various heroes of good made its inevitable appearance, and broke the nexus and freed the prisoners. However, they weren't able to break the life-to-mind ritual, being too busy with fighting off the evil and sealing it away. Most of the freed minds from the university died within a year, if not months. Our protagonist now has a statline affected by Venerable: 4/8/4/20/20/16, with death as the next step of aging.

Body failing him, now literally dying to learn, our protagonist does the most important study of his life, and figures out to become a necropolitan through a less-than-scrupulous organization. (He'll receive +4 Strength and Dexterity ala Undead Mastery. The extra hitpoints per level are burned on the Quick trait and paying off the "Frail" flaw he took while still a Human.) He undergoes the ritual, becoming a 8/12/-/20/20/16 necropolitan...

... and promptly wakes up to find the same forces of good that rescued him bursting into the ritual seconds to late to interrupt, hell-bent on purging "the cult".

Despite having no combat abilities to speak of, he manages to escape the scene, perhaps helped a little by being Quick. Now freed of his impending death, he goes straight back to what he had been doing in his conscious life: study. Bravely climbing back into the ruins of the university, he finds out the the place is dangerous now, basically its own dungeon. Dedicated to fixing the whole place up to its former glory, he cracks his undead knuckles and gets to work.

Somewhere in the middle of his work, the heroes of good that rescued then tried to purge him track him here, only to discover the work he's been doing and decide to leave him alone - he's not hurting anyone, and what he's doing is a noble cause, after all. Before they leave, though the cleric of the heroes sits down with our hero and has a long talk about being undead and what he is to do. When they depart, they leave a gift - they've Spellstitched him.

Centuries later, the (human, real-life) players around ECL 6-7 have come into the game investigating this evil that seems to be risking its escape. The old heroes are now all long dead. They track the history of the evil to what was supposed to be a dangerous ruin, in hopes of finding some clues.

Instead, they find our protagonist, who's taken the time to become a Factotum1/Cloistered Cleric5. Kind of slow level growth, but most of the XP he gained, he turned around spent on his work on restoring the place.

My plan is for him to ask the heroes in clearing out a particularly dangerous part of the ruin, in which they are ambushed by assassins from the growing cult worshipping the eldritch evil from yore. Our protagonist is NOT HAPPY at this reminder of his past. He cracks his undead knuckles, joins the party, and gets to work.


Feel free to poke as many holes in my character concept as possible.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-04, 06:43 PM
Can you play a changeling necropolitan and regain a mortal appearance?

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-04, 08:07 PM
First and foremost, when a template refers to HD it always refers to Racial HD unless it specifies character level or class levels. Therefore RAI a Spellstitched PC will not gain DR unless they're a race which has at least that many racial HD. This is not explicitly spelled out so there are boatloads of RAW arguments against it, but the designers have made it clear that this is how they intended templates to work.
Can you give me a cite for that, please?

Your interpretation makes a typical player character with the celestial creature template gain nothing whatsoever. That makes the heralds in races of stone, for example, have no reason to be celestial or fiendish.

balistafreak
2010-04-04, 10:24 PM
Made some edits. Put in lots of what Biffoniacus_Furiou said.

With all the character optimization out there, I'm surprised that Spellstitched Necropolitan doesn't come up that often. What's the issue? Too much reliance on outside factors? Being undead? Not as good as other choices?

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-04, 10:50 PM
Made some edits. Put in lots of what Biffoniacus_Furiou said.

With all the character optimization out there, I'm surprised that Spellstitched Necropolitan doesn't come up that often. What's the issue? Too much reliance on outside factors? Being undead? Not as good as other choices?

No listed LA means that your character advancement is now entirely in the hands of the DM.

balistafreak
2010-04-04, 11:32 PM
Well, that's true for Corpsecrafted and Spellstitched. Still, I'd expect to see more Necropolitan casters wandering around than I do.

And you can always Spellstitch yourself. (Possible) damage resistance, spell resistance, and save bonuses are all good in my book.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-05, 03:54 AM
Can you give me a cite for that, please?

Your interpretation makes a typical player character with the celestial creature template gain nothing whatsoever. That makes the heralds in races of stone, for example, have no reason to be celestial or fiendish.

Seconded on the request for citation. It may be RAI, but by RAW, hit dice are hit dice, no matter where they come from.

@balistafreak

+4 to Initiative and a +10 ft. enhancement bonus to speed. While the enhancement bonus to speed won't stack with a lot of things, Improved Initative is always a good idea, and being faster all the time is nothing but awesome.
It bears mentioning that the 'Nimble Bones' Corpsecrafter feat grants unnamed bonuses, not enhancement bonuses or 'Improved Initiative'. One of the nicest things about this feat is that this means skeletons created gain a total of +8, as skeletons gain Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. That is, unless there were errata I didn't look at.


No Constitution scores means that you can dump the stat and laugh it off. When doing a point-buy, this means that you can put 0 points into Constitution and pretend you have.

iirc, you can't go lower than 8 in point-buy. I see what you're saying now. Put 0 points into constitution.

On Spellstitching: A character can spellstitch himself. Since XP components from NPCs are horribly expensive, this may be the way to go. Or maybe a party member is willing to spellstitch you.

The main advantage to spellstitching isn't the 'extra slots', it's the fact that, as SLAs, these spells have no material components. Animate dead is a popular spell to stitch for this reason.

Other than that, I love it. Corpsecrafter applied to necropolitan is something that never occured to me before.

obnoxious
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PhoenixRivers
2010-04-05, 04:14 AM
First and foremost, when a template refers to HD it always refers to Racial HD unless it specifies character level or class levels.

Cite your source, because there's one that contradicts you.

Check Monsters and Class levels in the SRD.

A monster's HD include HD gained from Class levels AND racial HD. Can you show me anything saying that templates are an exception?

Coidzor
2010-04-05, 04:21 AM
Wait...

Wouldn't Magic in the Blood not work for a Spell-stitched templated Necropolitan since it's a 1st level character only feat, and Necropolitans can't be created as 1st level characters, meaning the SLAs can't be acquired until later?

Or does it apply its benefit to abilities gained after the feat is taken, then?

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-05, 04:32 AM
Wait...

Wouldn't Magic in the Blood not work for a Spell-stitched templated Necropolitan since it's a 1st level character only feat, and Necropolitans can't be created as 1st level characters, meaning the SLAs can't be acquired until later?

Or does it apply its benefit to abilities gained after the feat is taken, then?

Spellstitched does not add racial SLAs. This feat would not apply. I think there are other ways of achieving this, though.

obnoxious
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PhoenixRivers
2010-04-05, 04:58 AM
Augmented doesn't have in-game mechanical effects, it just sorta makes it easy to know what you were like beforehand.

Without (Augmented XXX), you'd lose the base race abilities.

For example: if Necropolitan didn't augment Human, then you'd lose the bonus skill point and feat when you became one.

balistafreak
2010-04-05, 10:00 AM
Seconded on the request for citation. It may be RAI, but by RAW, hit dice are hit dice, no matter where they come from.

I'll agree that the more I read, the more it seems that class HD should stack as well.


It bears mentioning that the 'Nimble Bones' Corpsecrafter feat grants unnamed bonuses, not enhancement bonuses or 'Improved Initiative'. One of the nicest things about this feat is that this means skeletons created gain a total of +8, as skeletons gain Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. That is, unless there were errata I didn't look at.

While I was simply making a comparison to Improved Initiative (same bonus, but not the same thing), I do realize I am incorrect about the enhancement bonus. What was I smoking?

... it was late. Going to fix that.


The main advantage to spellstitching isn't the 'extra slots', it's the fact that, as SLAs, these spells have no material components. Animate dead is a popular spell to stitch for this reason.

*jaw drops*

*flicks through SRD*

I can't believe I missed that.

Between (Un)Hallow, (De)(Con)secrate, Animate Dead, and Raise Dead (all money intensive spells), that's a huge amount of powerful spells for free. Spells that rightfully shouldn't be cast often at all will be cast every single day (well, hopefully not Raise Dead on party members :smallannoyed:)

Cast the two area buffs every single night you camp. Literally leave a swathe of (un)holy sites in your wake.

It's also a great moral question, one that might make a game memorable. Spellstitch an Undead with Heal, Raise Dead, Consecrate, and Hallow. What does he do with all these Positive Energy abilities? An excellent candidate for moral quandries - does he find ways to turn these spells for evil, or cooperate despite the fact that he wields forces that are literally anathema to his own being?

Alternatively, load him up with Harm, Slay Living, Desecrate, and Unhallow, but give him the same question.

The Postive Energy side has the benefit of not being quite gamebreaking as well. Heal generally doesn't auto-win an encounter, and Raise Dead for free, while awesome, is one of those spells that really shouldn't be cast very often anyways. The level-cost of death is already painful enough.

I just wish that I could shoehorn Atonement in there as well, but that's an Abjuration spell :smallsigh:.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-05, 03:13 PM
Heal generally doesn't auto-win an encounter, and Raise Dead for free, while awesome, is one of those spells that really shouldn't be cast very often anyways. The level-cost of death is already painful enough.

I just wish that I could shoehorn Atonement in there as well, but that's an Abjuration spell :smallsigh:.

What's stopping you from stitching abjuration spells?

Also: You can always stitch the lower-level spells to lesser undead that are controlled by the high-wisdom one. The Night Caller from Sunless Citadel (reprinted and increased in cost in Libris Mortis) is very useful for giving things minions without all the hassle of chain-of-command spawn: 2 zombies for anyone that feels like using the item. Once you've got your minions, pass on the item to someone else. If you're feeling generous awaken undead those zombies so they can use their abilities intelligently.

You said at-will at some point in the above post. The Spellstiched SLAs can be used a limited number of times per day, iirc, so even a harm spell won't be more than 'that one horrible attack the monster uses once in awhile'.

As for heal not auto-winning an encounter... well, that depends on the encounter. Also, for the undead with the moral dilemma, it may serve useful to have a spell with which one can destroy oneself in one go.

obnoxious
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balistafreak
2010-04-05, 06:50 PM
What's stopping you from stitching abjuration spells?

I quote, from Complete Arcane, pg 162: "Any spells selected must be from the conjuration, evocation, or necromancy school." No illusions, transmutation, abjuration, etc. This is probably because these three schools are the most "blasty" and least annoying when used against players - usually. After all, Spellstitched is apparently supposed to not be used for a PC.


You said at-will at some point in the above post. The Spellstiched SLAs can be used a limited number of times per day, iirc, so even a harm spell won't be more than 'that one horrible attack the monster uses once in awhile'.

Actually, I said "Spells that rightfully shouldn't be cast often at all will be cast every single day." As in, a spell such as Hallow, a spell that one normally wouldn't be preparing and casting every day, if Spellstitched, is going to be used every day simply because, well, why not cast it? It's not as if you can do anything else with the spell. Close, and it's easily misread (with almost no change in meaning) as "at will". I did the first time when I looked back. :smalltongue:

But if you're referring to the original post, I'll go back and fix those statements.


As for heal not auto-winning an encounter... well, that depends on the encounter. Also, for the undead with the moral dilemma, it may serve useful to have a spell with which one can destroy oneself in one go.

Okay, so if you're facing another undead, punching him in the face with Heal might end it there. But the majority of the time, I love the concept of an undead who has the ability to kill himself literally nothing more than a thought away... hanging over his head like the Sword of Damoclyes...

Incidentally, I'm stroking an imaginary goatee over the thought of adding the Evolved Undead template (Libris Mortis, pg. 100) to the list.

Like Corpsecrafted and Spellstitched, you're going to need a good story reason to take it: becoming an Evolved Undead means that you have existed as an intelligent undead long enough to become even more attuned to negative energy, granting additional benefits.

The main feature is that you have a list of 12 possible SLAs, of which you must have sufficent HD to cast as if you were a caster. Now, that statement is kind of vague, but RAI is quite clear - if you want to select Cone of Cold (a 5th level spell normally), you're going to need at least 9 HD. You can only cast it once per day, though. Although there is a system for selecting it randomly, the varying amounts of HD you'll need for the 12 abilities mean that you should probably just go and select it yourself. If you can already use the SLA, you simply gain an additional use, and if you can already use the SLA at-will, you must select another.

The other features are less flashy, but pretty useful. You gain +1 natural armor, +2 Strength and Charisma, and best of all permanent fast healing 3, making your encounter-to-encounter endurance ridiculous.

And if the DM complains, you can point to the very clear statement of "Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +1".

Now, are all of those abilities worth a level? Since this is an acquired template, all you basically have to say is "I'd like this SLA, so I'll apply this template instead of leveling once I get enough HD." I can see it being worth it for the stat boosts, but at the same time the loss of caster progression (as a Necropolitan, you are a caster, right?) is probably not worth the 1/day SLA you get. Hmmmm. :smallconfused:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-05, 06:55 PM
I quote, from Complete Arcane, pg 162: "Any spells selected must be from the conjuration, evocation, or necromancy school." No illusions, transmutation, abjuration, etc. This is probably because these three schools are the most "blasty" and least annoying when used against players - usually. After all, Spellstitched is apparently supposed to not be used for a PC.



Actually, I said "Spells that rightfully shouldn't be cast often at all will be cast every single day." As in, a spell such as Hallow, a spell that one normally wouldn't be preparing and casting every day, if Spellstitched, is going to be used every day simply because, well, why not cast it? It's not as if you can do anything else with the spell. Close, and it's easily misread (with almost no change in meaning) as "at will". I did the first time when I looked back. :smalltongue:

But if you're referring to the original post, I'll go back and fix those statements.



Okay, so if you're facing another undead, punching him in the face with Heal might end it there. But the majority of the time, I love the concept of an undead who has the ability to kill himself literally nothing more than a thought away... hanging over his head like the Sword of Damoclyes...

Incidentally, I'm stroking an imaginary goatee over the thought of adding the Evolved Undead template (Libris Mortis, pg. 100) to the list.

Like Corpsecrafted and Spellstitched, you're going to need a good story reason to take it: becoming an Evolved Undead means that you have existed as an intelligent undead long enough to become even more attuned to negative energy, granting additional benefits.

The main feature is that you have a list of 12 possible SLAs, of which you must have sufficent HD to cast as if you were a caster. Now, that statement is kind of vague, but RAI is quite clear - if you want to select Cone of Cold (a 5th level spell normally), you're going to need at least 9 HD. You can only cast it once per day, though. Although there is a system for selecting it randomly, the varying amounts of HD you'll need for the 12 abilities mean that you should probably just go and select it yourself. If you can already use the SLA, you simply gain an additional use, and if you can already use the SLA at-will, you must select another.

The other features are less flashy, but pretty useful. You gain +1 natural armor, +2 Strength and Charisma, and best of all permanent fast healing 3, making your encounter-to-encounter endurance ridiculous.

And if the DM complains, you can point to the very clear statement of "Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +1".

Now, are all of those abilities worth a level? Since this is an acquired template, all you basically have to say is "I'd like this SLA, so I'll apply this template instead of leveling once I get enough HD." I can see it being worth it for the stat boosts, but at the same time the loss of caster progression (as a Necropolitan, you are a caster, right?) is probably not worth the 1/day SLA you get. Hmmmm. :smallconfused:

Depends. With LA buyoff, it's not bad.

balistafreak
2010-04-05, 07:24 PM
Depends. With LA buyoff, it's not bad.

Wait, what?

LA buyoff means taking the template at 1st level and paying it off with the levels you gain afterward, right?

Well, see, there's one problem. You don't start as a Necropolitan, you become one. :smallannoyed:

Not to mention that if you need to buy off the LA, you probably don't have enough HD to use any of the SLA's provided by the template. Which... is kind of bad?

Unless my not-so-clear definition of LA buyoff is terribly off, of course.

As for a list of good Spellstitched spells, I'm going to start a list of cool ones to have, if not the "best". It currently operates under the assumption that multiple spell lists can be used to Spellstitch the same creature, which may or may not be true.

Remember, the only allowed schools are Conjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy.

NOTE: This post is no longer being updated. All further spell changes will be slotted into the OP.

1st

Extended Prestidigitation. Because having Prestidigitation all day long is cool. Sure, the effects are replicable with a cheap item, but having it innate is even cooler. That, and the 1st-level slot is cheap enough. However, since this is a "universal" spell, it's unclear about whether it can be taken. Does "universal" mean that you can take it with only three normally allowed schools, or does it mean that you can't, because it isn't one of those three schools? Hmmmm.

Lesser Restoration. Yes, this is a 1st level spell on the Paladin list. How you justify a paladin spellstiching an undead is what we call a "creative exercise."

Bless/Curse Water. There must be something useful you can do with free (un)holy water. Transmutation school. Should have guessed. :smallannoyed:

Summon Undead Line. If Animating dead wasn't good enough for you, keep in mind with the Conjuration school you can just summon them in.

2nd

Extended Floating Disk. Because having a disk that floats around with you to carry your junk is awesome, just like Prestidigitation. Finding creative things to do with a disk is even better. However, there might be better uses for your 2nd level SLA slots.

Gentle Repose. Like Prestidigitation, this might be better taken as an eternal wand or simply cast yourself, but this means that as an undead you don't randomly rot all over the place and stink.

(De)(Con)secrate. Bypass the material cost in the name of awesome. While Consecrating might be a terrible tactical decision, Desecrating is basically a standard-action buff for you, that fits under the Evocation school.

Continual Flame. Yet another material-cost bypasser, but probably the weakest of them all. Making lights in your spare time is probably not what you want to be doing with 2nd level spell slots.

3rd

Stinking Cloud. You don't breathe. Cast it centered on yourself and watch everyone suck around you.

Animate Dead. No material cost, and I don't think I have to go into detail about the usefulness of undead minions. Do it in an area you've already Desecrated for maximum efficency.

4th

Lesser Planar Ally. You don't need to pay an XP cost for this, although the implications of free Planar Binding might have your DM hit you in the face.

Wings of Flurry (Races of the Dragon). A classic Evocation spell that simply pwns. All targets you select in a 30ft. burst, centered on you, take (casterlevel)xd6 untyped (aka force) damage, Reflex halves. And if they are so unlucky as to fail that save, they're dazed for a turn. Totally awesome, and might I mention that the damage is uncapped? Since all your HD count for Spellstitched SLAs, this means this spell goes all the way up to 20. The only problem this spell has is that while it's a 30ft. burst, its a 30ft. burst centered on you. At least you have d12 HD and extra health from being Corpsecrafted. You did get yourself Corpsecrafted, right?

5th

Raise Dead. Forget 5K worth of diamonds, free rezs, here we come! Oh, and this makes raising random corpses you find viable. Get yourself a reptuation of returning people to life or something.

(Un)Hallow. The casting lasts a year, and you can weave one of a dozen other spells into it. Like Raise Dead you sidestep an immense material cost. This is cool. Get it.

Cloudkill. While Raise Dead and (Un)Hallow might have already taken up your two slots, this is a more offensive option. Cast it and walk with it as it moves. You don't care - you don't breathe!

Revive Undead. If you're feeling attached to your undead, or *gasp* have party members who are undead right alongside of you, this replaces Raise Dead.

6th

Planar Ally. Like its little brother but worse.

Wall of Iron. The whole industry of breaking down Walls of Iron just got a lot funnier.

Heal/Harm. This is a classic spell that generally finds a use somehow. The implications of access to a spell that (generally) makes you die instantly (Heal) are also qute interesting.

Create Undead. Like Animate Dead, but better.

Circle of Death. This normally expensive offensive option just got a lot cheaper. Alternatively, take its anti-undeath counterpart, Undeath to Death, for the lulz.

Awaken Undead. This isn't a particularly powerful choice, but there's simply something cool about Awakening the undead you're Animating for free already. Oh, yeah, you're also Awakening them with no XP cost. Tactically the Intelligence score is a bit low to be of great use, and the +2 turn/control undead resistance is only situationally useful, but Awakening them also might let you relinquish direct control over them and still have them follow your orders, letting you "control" even more undead, so yeah.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-05, 07:41 PM
I don't think you have to begin play with a Level Adjustment in order to buy it off later. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm) It doesn't explicitly say 'starting' refers to 'the LA you had when you gained your first class level'. I'd be willing to argue that 'starting' can refer to 'the LA you had before you bought any off'.

I've never actually used the Spellstitched template. I wasn't aware of the school restriction. Guess you start misremembering things after awhile. Must be how my grandpa shot down that 800 lb. duck.

obnoxious
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balistafreak
2010-04-05, 07:48 PM
Oh, wait, that's how Buyoff works again. See, normally I don't use buyoff, prefering to take other routes to power.

... so basically, for this +1 LA, if the character is to be 3rd level or higher, the LA is negated, letting me keep all my precious class levels.

Sweet.

And please help me fill in suggestions for the Spellstiched slots! I'm only going through Core right now, but I'd like to at least take a walk through the PHBII and the Spell Compendium.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-05, 08:38 PM
Let's see...

If you have multiple necropolitans in the party (and if you're doing this, there's going to be a lot of frowning other players, some of whom may decide to take a similar route with their next characters), then Revive Undead (Libris Mortis, page 70) is a nice one to get (Necromancy).

Wings of Cover (Evocation) from Races of the Dragon is, while 1/day, crazy-useful to have when you need it (it basically says "no" to whatever was thrown at you just now).

Contingency is a 6th level Evocation spell.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-05, 08:43 PM
Spellstitched does not add racial SLAs. This feat would not apply. I think there are other ways of achieving this, though.

obnoxious
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Why wouldn't they be racial? Your race is what kind of creature you are, and you are a spell-stitched necropolitan elf. Just like how a half-celestial elf has a race of "half celestial elf", and a half-dragon ogre has a race of "half-dragon ogre".

I can't really see anything else they could be. They certainly aren't granted by class levels or feats.

You'd also still get the bonuses even if you have the feat at first level, by the same logic that makes practiced spellcaster gives you scaling bonuses even if you take it at level three as a wizard2/fighter1, and take three more levels of fighter.

balistafreak
2010-04-05, 09:24 PM
I think the contention comes from what SLAs are associated with what races. You see, normally a Dwarf isn't going to use Drow SLAs, for example. But Spellstitched (and Augmented Undead too, for that matter) are additional templates, not replacements. It seems weird to benefit from a feat aimed at "natural" SLAs (elf, aasimar, tiefling, etc.) also apply for "additional" SLAs (the strange ones granted through being Undead and Spellstitched).

But I have no facts to back me, just my observations. Don't cite me as support.

Just a quick thoughts on playing an Undead:

You don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe, all hallmarks of the lack of Constitution score. But what about physical feats? Can you engage in the most strenous physical labor possible for your Strenght score for an indefinite period of time without ill effect, or will your undead frame begin to bend and break underneath the stress?

Can you run as fast as possible for an indefinite period of time? How does extreme heat/cold in climates (but not so extreme as to prevent life, think desert nomads or Eskimos) affect you?

Also, does not being able to sleep (and living forever as well, come to think of it) cause radical shift in how one perceives time? Could a Necropolitan get lost in a library for literally years until he reads every single book inside of it? Or would his mind wander from time to time, just like when he was alive, keeping him moving from task to task a little at a time? It's stated that long-lived races already view humans, the young race, as incredibly vivacious and always willing to try something new, so there's something to be said for age ----> dedication/inability to realize passage of time.

I had a great idea for a scene involving a Necropolitan character planting a seed in a garden patch along a library wall, entering and starting to read, and only coming back out when he heard a loud crash, namely the sound of the trunk of a huge tree grinding into wall. Time flies indeed.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-06, 02:03 AM
Why wouldn't they be racial? Your race is what kind of creature you are, and you are a spell-stitched necropolitan elf. Just like how a half-celestial elf has a race of "half celestial elf", and a half-dragon ogre has a race of "half-dragon ogre".

I can't really see anything else they could be. They certainly aren't granted by class levels or feats.

You'd also still get the bonuses even if you have the feat at first level, by the same logic that makes practiced spellcaster gives you scaling bonuses even if you take it at level three as a wizard2/fighter1, and take three more levels of fighter.

They are not racial SLAs. Your explanation is reasonable, but it is not RAW (or RAI). Furthermore, the races referred to in the feat have relatively weak non-scaling SLAs iirc, whereas a spellstitched creature tends to have powerful SLAs. (Not that what appears to be a weak feat hasn't been used to much more powerful effect in other cases.)

Fiendish isn't a race. Half-Farspawn isn't a race. Spellstitched isn't a race.

@balista
I like the tree/library thing. I've been wondering though, are necropolitans specifically immune to aging? If not, don't they still suffer aging as 'augmented X'? (it's late, I don't have my books out)

obnoxious
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TheMadLinguist
2010-04-06, 02:12 AM
No, but "half-starspawn elf" is certainly a race.

To quote wizards.com (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070109), "A character's race is the character's species. ". If half-elf is a race, then a half-dragon elf must also be a race.

Also, from the DMG: "how to read statblocks".

Name
Race and Class
CR
HD
et cetera

In every instance I have seen where a creature had a template applied to it, it was listed under the "race and class" section of the statblock.


The dragonkind races detailed in various D&D books (some of them appearing in more than one source) are as follows.
Races of the Dragon: Dragonborn, spellscale, kobold, draconic creatures, half-dragons.

TheCountAlucard
2010-04-06, 06:43 AM
But what about physical feats? Can you engage in the most strenous physical labor possible for your Strength score for an indefinite period of time without ill effect, or will your undead frame begin to bend and break underneath the stress?Let's see... the SRD notes that if you're lifting anywhere from your max load to twice that weight, you can only stagger around with it, and it cuts your movement down to 5 feet, but it doesn't say anything about how long you can do it. Also, not lifting-related, but it also indicates that an extended forced march causes you to take non-lethal damage. Since undead are immune to non-lethal damage... :smallamused:


Can you run as fast as possible for an indefinite period of time?Well, let's see what the SRD has to say about it...


A character with a Constitution score of 9 or higher can run for a minute without a problem.Since Constitution is a nonability for undead, they either can't run at all, or can run indefinitely, depending on how you look at it.

...and since it says this just a little further down...


A character can’t run for an extended period of time.Well, glad that's settled. :smalltongue:


How does extreme heat/cold in climates (but not so extreme as to prevent life, think desert nomads or Eskimos) affect you?Once again, the SRD has the answer! :smallsmile:


Cold and exposure deal nonlethal damage to the victim.Since you're immune to it... :smallwink: It's not until you're down to -20 degrees that the damage starts becoming lethal, which is also the same point at which characters no longer get Fortitude saves against it (which you wouldn't have to worry about, since undead don't have to make them unless they affect objects), but as long as you're above -20 degrees, you're good.

As for heat...


Heat deals nonlethal damage...Looks like you're good there, too... though once again, extreme temperatures deal lethal damage... to breathing creatures. :smallamused: Looks like you're good, then. :smallbiggrin:

balistafreak
2010-04-06, 09:39 AM
Well, I'm quite aware that undead are lethal to non-lethal damage, but that (realistically, at least as realistically as undead are in the first place) an undead won't pass out from stress or fatigue, and therefore push its body past its intended limits.

Specifically, it was said in some "Zombie Survival Guide" that a zombie will literally attack until its muscles disintegrate. See, swinging your arms around will eventually cause nonlethal damage as you tire. But an undead will (or can; he might stop if he's smart) do it until he breaks.

And the idea that the undead can't run simply seems wrong. Sure, "a character is not able to run for extended periods of time", but that's not including magic or other outside factors. If you had a spell cast that gave you immunity to nonlethal damage, wouldn't you want to run as fast as you could for the duration? Shouldn't the same idea then apply indefinitely to an undead?

In a way, that's like implying that undead can't charge either; when you charge, its similiar spending a move action to travel more than your hustle speed (aka running) and then your standard action to attack. Now, normally you can't full-speed RUN as a move action, which is why charging is special...

... well, hopefully you understand that. Even if the above made absolutely no sense, saying an undead can't run at all is kind of... strange. Well, zombies and their partial-actions-only aside. :smalltongue:

While undead may be immune to nonlethal damage, what about its cumulative effects? Nonlethal damage is nonlethal because a biological being can shrug it off in short order, but what about an undead that doesn't heal natur -

Wait. Necropolitans do heal naturally.

... now I've confused myself. :smallannoyed:

Volthawk
2010-04-06, 10:18 AM
Specifically, it was said in some "Zombie Survival Guide" that a zombie will literally attack until its muscles disintegrate. See, swinging your arms around will eventually cause nonlethal damage as you tire. But an undead will (or can; he might stop if he's smart) do it until he breaks.


Ah yes, the Zombie Survival Guide. Well, some of it is not so useful, as it puts undead in the context of them being mindless automatons, but some of it is useful. About tirelessness, it has this:



They will continue an act, with the same dynamic energy, until the muscles supporting it literally disintegrate.

balistafreak
2010-04-06, 11:43 AM
But then, since you're a Necropolitan, your "muscles" heal naturally?

So I can spend three hundred years doing nothing but move rock and stone?

Libris Mortis says nothing about aging once you become a Necropolitan. The SRD says "If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type." So, I'm thinking that while you keep your features of being your original race (Human feat and skill points, Elf-sense, etc.) you gain the traits (undead immunities) of being undead.

Then again, "trait" and "feature" are a bit fuzzy. :smallannoyed:

However, I think you can become aged first (become Venerable so you can get that natural Wisdom of 19 for 6th level SLAs) before becoming a Necropolitan, and "freeze" yourself in that state. You don't un-age, I would think.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-06, 04:37 PM
I think the Libris Mortis (or maybe I'm confusing it with the ECS concerning Warforged) says somewhere that an undead creature can't spend more than 8 hours crafting magic items since they lose focus and need to take a break or something. I think Xykon even comments on that here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html). This would imply that they can't simply read an entire library without realizing that time is going by, but I think this rule is silly.

Concerning the aging thing, what about the stereotypical lich that has been locked in a pyramid/tomb/whatever for several millenniums. Their stat blocks never have them with 0s for Str and Dex, which they should have if they keep accruing aging penalties.

strider24seven
2010-04-06, 06:00 PM
Arguably, liches (IMO) should grow better and stronger with age. Like wine and dragons.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-06, 06:09 PM
I think the Libris Mortis (or maybe I'm confusing it with the ECS concerning Warforged) says somewhere that an undead creature can't spend more than 8 hours crafting magic items since they lose focus and need to take a break or something. I think Xykon even comments on that here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html). This would imply that they can't simply read an entire library without realizing that time is going by, but I think this rule is silly.

It's specifically item crafting that's 8 hours a day, actually. No "why" is given... but given that it takes 8.25 to 9 hours to recharge spells, Crafting expends spells, and a "unit" of work takes 8 hours... it makes a sort of sense.

JoshuaZ
2010-04-06, 06:17 PM
Arguably, liches (IMO) should grow better and stronger with age. Like wine and dragons.

They do. In Libris Mortis (I hate the name of that book but that's a separate issue) there's a template that intelligent undead have a fixed percentage to gain every 100 years that they live. The template is the "evolved" template and gives undead some bonuses to stats and some minor spell-like abilities. I don't remember the formula for gaining it but it is something like 1% per every hundred years they've been alive or something like that. Indeed, arguably by RAW, this should happen for all undead whether they like it or not.

Oslecamo
2010-04-06, 06:22 PM
Arguably, liches (IMO) should grow better and stronger with age. Like wine and dragons.

They do. Just look at Xykon, killing half the stuff he finds! All those dead adventurers should be worth some good exp!:smallbiggrin:

balistafreak
2010-04-06, 09:26 PM
They do. Just look at Xykon, killing half the stuff he finds! All those dead adventurers should be worth some good exp!:smallbiggrin:

I don't think its age, so much as the study liches do in their undead time. That's the main cited reason for liches to become liches in the first place - unlimited time to study and gain further power.

Also, while I doing my trawling for awesome spells to take, I tripped over the quintessential damage spell Wings of Flurry. 30ft. radius burst centered on you (freakin' huge!), all your selected targets (not your friends... at least not most of the time :smallamused:) take (Casterlevel)d6 untyped (aka force) damage, Reflex halves. Fail your save and be dazed the next round, setting yourself up for - guess what - another Wings of Flurry. And again. And again. (Incidentally, being dragonblooded or of the Dragon type gives you +1 caster, although for our spellstitched purposes that might be a bit much to shoehorn in.)

This is simply a great spell to have, period, but its biggest draw is that the damage is uncapped, perfect for our Spellstitched needs.

Are there any other Evocation/Conjuration/Necromacy spells with uncapped numbers?

Magikeeper
2010-04-06, 10:32 PM
As it were, I’m playing an old aged spellstiched Necropolitan Illumian (Wiz 1/Archivist 1/ MS 1/MT 3) right now! It’s awesome. As for the corpse crafter feats, you might be better off taking the feats yourself and then convincing the DM to let you transform yourself. Sure, you have to do a number of things after dying , but there are some creative solutions to that. As both a DM and a player I hate relaying on mighty backstory NPCs giving out free stuff. Why can’t everyone else get free stuff then, eh?

Anyway, we started at level 3 (me at level 1 due to spellstiching), I had Corpsecrafter, Bolster Resistance, and Nimble bones with flaws, and I was a necromancer with the +hp variant. Toss in the slow trait and I get 1d12+7 HP per level. I then started retraining myself into an illusionist with different feats – he had already achieved what he wanted necromancy to give him, after all.
Another Note: 3rd level PC wealth is not enough for the 3000gp cost of the the ritual. If you start at this level I suggest asking your DM to let you take out a loan. Its easy to catch up at lower levels, so change into an undead as soon as possible.

Anyway, my spell choices were:

Spellstiched
1st - Grease x3, Mage Armor x1
2nd - Create Magic Tattoo x1, Wings of Cover x3
3rd - Animate Dead x1, Glowing Orb x1
4th - Dimension Door x1, Delay Death x1
5th - Revivify x1, Revive Undead(Deathbound domain?) x1
6th - Animate Dread Warrior x1

We used group crafting, the transference spell, and a party artificer to mimic any weird spells. I could of had delay death at level 3, but I wanted glowing orb so meh. Transference is important as the XP cost for spellstiching is insane (500xp per point of wis!). You want to hire a an NPC to help you, offer to group craft with him, and then use transference to pay part of the XP cost and pay of the rest at a 5gp:1xp ratio. I think Spellstiching is kind of like a graft, which is why it doesn't have an LA. It has crafting rules! I convinced the entire party to help pay for the spellstiching - what magic item casts revivify once per day??

Reason for spell choices

[b]Revivify – If you reach a player in 1 round you can bring them back from the dead without level loss. If you spellstich raise dead you will rarely be able to take advantage of it since no one likes losing levels. If you spellstich revivify you can safely cast it every day should you need to. Combine it with actual castings of gentle repose and your party might never need to pay for revivals again!

Animate Dread Warrior – Animates a humanoid with 3+ HD as a sentient undead under your control. They get (working from memory) +4 str, -6int, -4 cha. Oh, and they keep their class levels. Also, no limit on how many you can control. Don’t take this without speaking with your DM, but it might be the best 6th level spell choice. [Well, I think everything surrounding Necropolitan is a “speak with your DM” sort of thing.]

Revive Undead – Works on dread warriors. I’m pretty sure it also works on mindless undead.

Wings of Cover – A sorcerer spell you can cast as an immediate action to gain total cover. This block most attacks/spells. A nifty spell to have at all times. Works better if dragonblooded.

Craft Create Magic Tattoo – At higher levels this lets you raise your caster level by 1. That alone is worth spell slot, although it can do other stuff like boost saves and grant bonuses to attacks. Normally costs 100g in materials. Still require a skill rank in a relevant crafting skill.

Delay Death - I noticed that this can be cast on undead. By RAW doing so is pointless, since undead go boom at 0 rather than at -10, but I think you have a good shot at arguing RAI with your DM.

The rest of the spell choices revolved around the fact that I didn’t want to unbalance the party’s offence. Casting high level combat spells at low levels makes people unhappy. (Note: We use the dread warriors for out-of-combat stuff and as a yet-to-be-used reserve squad in combat).

Another great idea: Black Sand from Sandstorm deals 1d4 negative damage a round to any creature in contact with it. Anything it kills turns into black sand. And you can create the first batch of sand with a 2nd level cleric domain spell scroll (The spell-created sand is temporary). It also works for party members who took the Tomb-Tainted soul feat! So I have 1d12+7 HP per level and effective fast healing 1d4. :D

<If anyone is wondering, which is unlikely, about my comments in this and other threads in homebrew, I am both DMing a game and playing in a game right now>

Edit: The racial hit die requirement is not supported by RAW in anyway that I know. Nor do I not know of any proof that it was RAI for half-celestials to not gain spell-like abilities, although I admittedly have not looked for any.

balistafreak
2010-04-07, 09:10 AM
Great to see that other people are playing this combination as well! I thought I was the only one.

A few quick questions: I'm aware that MT is Mystic Theurge, but my brain fails me on MS. Elaborate for a poor guy? :smallbiggrin:

You said you/your party crafted yourself, but I'm quite curious as to how you managed to get all those high level spells. Sure, you had an Artificer, but you're only 6th level. Don't tell me you're that far beyond the rest of the party?

I'm aware that Grease is super, super, awesome, but that seems a bit much. A major draw of being Spellstitched is to get spells that you would normally never be able to cast... although as a Mystic Theurge with Archivist, you seem dedicated to ignoring that anyways, so yeah. :smalltongue:

I can't find where you're getting Craft Magic Tattoo as a spell. I can only find it as a feat. It seems great, though, and the flavor of it as a Spellstiched spell of its own is pretty cool.

Animate Dread Warrior has no control limit? I thought that any undead you didn't directly control would need a reason to stay under your command - say making them non-mindless and inspiring them to your cause. So yeah... your Dread Warriors seem like they might get a bit bored. Maybe. I dunno. Could you give me a source for it exactly?

I've never been a fan of Revivify - its basically a heal that you can cast a turn late. Close Wounds as a 2nd level spell accomplishes a similiar goal (healing out of normal time), but as an immediate action, with the weakness of not fully stopping death through massive damage. Maybe I'm too strong a proponent of the whole spells-are-quadratic idae, but I'd rather cast several Close Wounds over a few turns (keeping the target's health higher overall to avoid instant death through massive damage) than blow a 5th level spell in the middle of combat. Basically, you might run in and Revivify your friend, but then the next turn your opponent just coup-de-graces him... so yeah. I'd rather blow the offender to pieces first with that 5th level slot and Raise Dead later. Also, Raise Dead can be used outside of your party more often.

But I will cede that Revivify has its own awesome niche, and that I feel better having it on my spell list anyways. There will be times when I wish I had prepared Revivify. :smallwink:

Black Sand simply sounds evil. Heal yourself and kill your foes. Eeeeewww. Your party might be angry with you though... unless they're Tomb-tainted. :smalltongue:

And Wings of Cover solves our Disintegrate problem. I like.

I'll make some changes to my list later and move it into the OP; I'm a bit busy right now.

SethFahad
2010-04-07, 09:52 AM
Good work balistafr-iend!!! I've only read the necropolitan stuff and I'm...well...happy :smallsmile: I'll read the rest now.

Oh, and ever thought off Evolved Undead template? It's a +1 LA template, and you can take it again and again and... again...
And every time you take it you add:
you improve your Nat Armor by one
You gain fast healing 3 (this doesn't stack)
you gain +2str
you gain +2cha
you gain one of the following special attacks as a spell like ability once per day with a CL equal t your HD: circle of death, cloudkill,cone of cold,confusion,contagion,creeping doom, greater invisibility, greater dispel magic,haste,see invisibility, unholy blight.

did I say.."WOW!!!!" ??? :smallcool:

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-07, 09:54 AM
Revivify – If you reach a player in 1 round you can bring them back from the dead without level loss. If you spellstich raise dead you will rarely be able to take advantage of it since no one likes losing levels. If you spellstich revivify you can safely cast it every day should you need to. Combine it with actual castings of gentle repose and your party might never need to pay for revivals again!

:eek: gentle repose works with revivify?

Looking at the spell descriptions, I think that's a stretch, since revivify says it's limited by the soul's departure whereas gentle repose merely preserves the body.

If you get it past your DM though... wow. The revolving door into the afterlife just started spinning faster.

obnoxious
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SethFahad
2010-04-07, 10:11 AM
Well I'm done reading, I just need to...digest some things...

oh, and I see you've already mentioned the Evolved Undead. I think it's good trade heck it's free, specially if you are a sorcerer...

balistafreak
2010-04-07, 11:01 AM
Can someone tell me what feat lets you get an Animal Companion?

Ya know, because "Heal Animal Companion" (Spell Compendium) is a 3rd level Ranger spell. Now you don't have to feel so bad using it as a trap monkey... :smallamused:

You can also rip people's hearts out with "Heart Ripper", also from the Spell Compendium. It's a 4th level Assassin spell. At Short range, Fortitude save or die, because you just kali-mahed the poor fool. Against those with more HD than you, though, it only stuns them for 1d4 rounds (which might be death anyways, given the average adventuring party) and it obviously has no effect against those without hearts.

Finding awesome spells on secondary caster spell lists is fun! :smalltongue:

And I'm really not sure that Gentle Repose and Revivify work that way. Revenance and Revivify do, I think.

If you want to know, Revenance is a 4th level spell (once again from Spell Compendium) that acts as Raise Dead on a friend that has been dead for up to 1 round per level - it doesn't say if level is your caster level or the friend's level, but I think it's the second one. He is raised at half health with no level loss or penalties, and can be healed normally - he is not undead. Amusingly, he gets a +1 to attack rolls, damage, saves, and checks against what killed him. He stays alive for (casterlevel) minutes, upon which he dies again.

Of course, since he probably dies again after the combat is over, that's when you punch him in the face with Revifify. Huzzah!

And I'm pretty sure you can Revenance the poor sod repeatedly, although such a preparation of spells makes me raise an eyebrow. So you were planning for him to die repeatedly? :smallconfused:

Volthawk
2010-04-07, 11:01 AM
Wild Cohort. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-07, 12:54 PM
It's specifically item crafting that's 8 hours a day, actually. No "why" is given... but given that it takes 8.25 to 9 hours to recharge spells, Crafting expends spells, and a "unit" of work takes 8 hours... it makes a sort of sense.

But why can't the undead use the remaining time to begin prepping spells again? And what about undead artificers? As time for crating magic items is only relevant from an RP standpoint, what impact does crafting them faster really have on the game? The DM can just speed up the NPCs/plot if it gets to be a problem. I personally feel that the rule is silly.

balistafreak
2010-04-07, 09:00 PM
It's really unclear as to exactly what advantages an undead gets in day-to-day activities.

I still want answers on the whole undead focus thing. That, and the running question, because saying that undead can't run seems ridiculous to me.

olentu
2010-04-07, 09:12 PM
It's really unclear as to exactly what advantages an undead gets in day-to-day activities.

I still want answers on the whole undead focus thing. That, and the running question, because saying that undead can't run seems ridiculous to me.

That running thing would be rather strange since in the nonabilities section I recall that not having a con score means that one can run for an unlimited period of time unless of course the monster entry says different.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-07, 09:19 PM
:eek: gentle repose works with revivify?

Looking at the spell descriptions, I think that's a stretch, since revivify says it's limited by the soul's departure whereas gentle repose merely preserves the body.

If you get it past your DM though... wow. The revolving door into the afterlife just started spinning faster.

obnoxious
sig
There's some spell that lets you temporarily revive people with awful stats (like, single action per round, no class features, something like that) without much cost. Get that, bring someone back to life with it, and cast revivify the round when the duration expires

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-07, 11:31 PM
Raise Dead. Forget 5K worth of diamonds, free rezs, here we come! Oh, and this makes raising random corpses you find viable. Get yourself a reptuation of returning people to life or something.Zombie Jesus, hallelujah!

Magikeeper
2010-04-08, 12:38 AM
A few quick questions: I'm aware that MT is Mystic Theurge, but my brain fails me on MS. Elaborate for a poor guy? :smallbiggrin:

Master Specialist (now choosing illusion) Prc from complete mage.



You said you/your party crafted yourself, but I'm quite curious as to how you managed to get all those high level spells. Sure, you had an Artificer, but you're only 6th level. Don't tell me you're that far beyond the rest of the party?

Spellstiching: I don’t know about the spells, the DM lets the artificer use his skillchecks to fake any spell for crafting purposes. I've wondered if he shouldn't be able to fake such high-level spells.. anyway, I’ve never played an artificer myself, my only contribution to his PC was that obscure feat that gives an additional 25% off of a specific crafting type on top of the Eberron one (yay ¼ wondrous item prices! - doesn't help spellstiching though). Granted, we could have just gone to the church of greed we sorta work for and have found a willing NPC, but I dislike getting abilities from powerful NPCs. Whatever NPC ended up paying most of the XP cost was just fine. The artificer can’t make it anymore, but we pretty much demanded to have the dm let us keep sharing exp with the now-npc artificer. He basically lounges around in our base while getting treated like a king.



I can't find where you're getting Craft Magic Tattoo as a spell. I can only find it as a feat. It seems great, though, and the flavor of it as a Spellstiched spell of its own is pretty cool.

Whoops. It is called Create Magic Tattoo. I always get those two names mixed up. It’s in the Spell Compendium. 2nd level spell, 100gp material component, 24hrs, requires a rank in a relevant crafting skill.


Animate Dread Warrior is from Unapproachable East. The only limitation is that your commands beyond .. I think 15 words…. get screwed up. If you wind up with non-stupid dread warriors I would argue that the 15 words is a control limit, not a limit on their understanding. I.E., it limits what you can order them to do in an absolute you-must-obey fashion. That’s really more a flavor thing though, and it is not supported by anything. It just troubled me that we could end up with an int 14+ dread warrior that inexplicably couldn’t handle a 16 word sentence. One more limit – if you die they all go free. Simply ordering them about like minions might result in a revolt when you would rather they help revive you. Personally, we’ve been asking around and making up for the whole killing-them-thing.


Revivify is more awesome if you DM lets gentle repose work with it, which ours does. Also, save for the artificer the entire party has tomb-tainted soul. Close wounds would kill them. Furthermore, my party would prefer being able to come back from any kind of effect that can kill them, not just damage. Finger of Death? Ha! Wail of the Banshee? Ha! Oh-man-why-is-the-dm-using-vorpal-squirrels? Ha! Also, I’m planning this stuff for higher levels. You reach the point where the occasional person simply dies in combat if the DM is really challenging you. And at least myself and the other most active player dislike non-challenging combat.


Black Sand simply sounds evil. Heal yourself and kill your foes. Eeeeewww. Your party might be angry with you though... unless they're Tomb-tainted. :smalltongue:

Speaking of Black Sand, we put it on some goats to turn them into real black sand, and then I ate some of it. We're pretty sure the goat sand (and later people sand, we keep feeding stuff to the pile) exist beyond the spell duration. Living party members keep it in their socks, my familiar has a pouch tied to his tail (psychic reformation for tomb-tainted soul). The entire party basically has fast healing 1d4. One day we hope to animate the sand, as it is kinda becoming our shtick.

balistafreak
2010-04-08, 08:53 PM
There's some spell that lets you temporarily revive people with awful stats (like, single action per round, no class features, something like that) without much cost. Get that, bring someone back to life with it, and cast revivify the round when the duration expires

It's not awful stats, although it is a bit high level. (Not as high as Raise Dead, though.) It's Revenance, a 4th level spell. It lets you temporarily rez a party member at half-health, who also gets bonuses against the thing(s) that killed him. The party member could have been dead for up to 1 round per caster level, so its basically a Revivify enabler.

... I think I've discussed this before already. :smalltongue:

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-08, 09:29 PM
I might have been thinking of a different spell, but whatever.

balistafreak
2010-04-08, 10:04 PM
That running thing would be rather strange since in the nonabilities section I recall that not having a con score means that one can run for an unlimited period of time unless of course the monster entry says different.

Haha, I found it!

To quote the SRD:

"Constitution
Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run). "

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-09, 02:31 AM
Good work even if verbose. Don't care for the discussion, just wondering if this post in here ("http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7756367) of mine gave you the inspiriation (since everyone knows all permanent undead should be spellstitched)

balistafreak
2010-04-11, 03:17 PM
I just took a look at the "Stigmata" feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds (pg 46). Although it requires the pretty terrible feat of Nimbus of Light, this feat lets you take Constitution damage to heal your allies.

*crickets*

You are immune to Constitution damage.

I'm pretty sure this is NOT how the feat was intended to be used, but please tell me that there's no rule saying I can't take the feat anyways.

And in retrospect, the Nimbus of Light will let you walk around without getting the peasants to kill you, because you're freakin' walking around with a literal halo around your head.

... combine with spellstitching Raise Dead to truly make Zombie Jesus.

"I died for your sins, but I got bored, so now I'm undying for them as well."

Volthawk
2010-04-11, 03:18 PM
I just took a look at the "Stigmata" feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds (pg 46). Although it requires the pretty terrible feat of Nimbus of Light, this feat lets you take Constitution damage to heal your allies.

*crickets*

You are immune to Constitution damage.

I'm pretty sure this is NOT how the feat was intended to be used, but please tell me that there's no rule saying I can't take the feat anyways.

And in retrospect, the Nimbus of Light will let you walk around without getting the peasants to kill you, because you're freakin' walking around with a literal halo around your head.

... combine with spellstitching Raise Dead to truly make Zombie Jesus.

"I died for your sins, but I got bored, so now I'm undying for them as well."

But, you're not immune to Constitution damage, you don't have constitution to lose. Two different things.

balistafreak
2010-04-11, 03:25 PM
But you're not paying Constitution, you're taking damage for it. Which you happen to be immune to.

You heal someone, and as payment you take Constitution damage. You're immune to the Constitution damage, but that doesn't counter the healing.

I think. :smallconfused:

Also, the same ally can't benefit from your Stigmata more than once an hour, which means that the combo isn't that broken... it's not invincibility as long as you can take an action afterward, it's just a full-heal to anyone you can touch, once an hour.

And you can still die, so yeah.

Volthawk
2010-04-11, 03:29 PM
But you're not paying Constitution, you're taking damage for it. Which you happen to be immune to.

You heal someone, and as payment you take Constitution damage. You're immune to the Constitution damage, but that doesn't counter the healing.

I think. :smallconfused:

Maybe, but it still might not work, because of this:



You may take as many points of Constitution damage as you wish, as long as you remain alive and conscious.


Not 100% about that, though.

balistafreak
2010-04-11, 03:38 PM
As long as you remain alive, eh?

... I suppose undeath doesn't count here... :smallannoyed:

Someone should ask the Sage this question. It's quite relevant.

JaronK
2010-04-11, 04:16 PM
I just took a look at the "Stigmata" feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds (pg 46). Although it requires the pretty terrible feat of Nimbus of Light, this feat lets you take Constitution damage to heal your allies.

No good, it requires being exalted, which means you can't be undead (because good is racist like that. Vampire rights!).

JaronK

balistafreak
2010-04-11, 04:27 PM
No good, it requires being exalted, which means you can't be undead (because good is racist like that. Vampire rights!).

JaronK

I quote from the Book of Exalted Deeds:

"This book introduces a new type of feat: the exalted feat. Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures."

Where does it ban undead there? :smalltongue:

That being said, if someone ever tried to pull this in my game I'd slap them silly.