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Keld Denar
2010-04-04, 05:50 PM
So, what would happen if you cast a Whirling Blade through a swarm?

For reference:


WHIRLING BLADE
Transmutation
Level: Bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2,
warmage 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Effect: 60-ft. line
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
As you cast this spell, you hurl a single slashing weapon at your foes, magically striking at all enemies along a line to the extent of the spell’s range.
You make a normal melee attack, just as if you attacked with the weapon in melee, against each foe in the weapon’s path, but you can choose to substitute your Intelligence or Charisma modifier (as appropriate for your spellcasting class) for your Strength modifier on the weapon’s attack rolls and damage rolls. Even if your base attack bonus would normally give you multiple attack rolls, a whirling blade gets only one attack (at your best attack bonus) against each target. The weapon deals damage just as if you had swung it in melee, including any bonuses you might have from ability scores or feats.

No matter how many targets your weapon hits or misses, it instantly and unerringly returns to your hand after attempting the last of its attacks.
Focus: A slashing melee weapon that the caster hurls.


and from the SRD


A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature. A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.

A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.

Traits
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.


So, swarms are normally immune to weapon damage, and its impossible to attack a specific number, but a Whirling Blade attacks EACH foe in its path. Would that mean it would actually be able to attack individual creatures in a swarm, despite what the rules state? I understand the intent of that, that, for example, slowing 15 members of a 1000 member swarm wouldn't do anything, but what if you were able to slow ALL members of the swarm? The reason area attacks like Fireball are extra effective against swarms is that they affect EACH member of the swarm individually.

Its kinda an immoveable object vs an unstoppable force situation, I guess. Unless someone is seeing something I'm not.

Icewalker
2010-04-04, 05:56 PM
Personally, I'd say that the specific phrasing of Whirling Blade as to attacking every foe/target rather than every creature suggests that it would get a single attack against a swarm. Also, otherwise you just individually cut in half every single little bug in that thousand. :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2010-04-04, 05:57 PM
I would resolve it as a single creature being attacked, because that is how D&D generally manages swarms (the whole group has a single HP pool, AC, space, etc) but on a successful hit apply the rules for attacking with an area attack, because the spell is a Line effect.

Keld Denar
2010-04-04, 06:04 PM
Yea, I could see that. Would Whirling Blade bypass a swarms natural resistance or immunity to weapon damage as well? Tiny swarms take half damage from non-swatting weapons, and Fine/Diminuative swarms take NO damage from ANY weapon.

arguskos
2010-04-04, 06:05 PM
Yea, I could see that. Would Whirling Blade bypass a swarms natural resistance or immunity to weapon damage as well? Tiny swarms take half damage from non-swatting weapons, and Fine/Diminuative swarms take NO damage from ANY weapon.
No, the spell isn't dealing the damage, the weapon is. Because of that, I'd say that the swarm still pretty much ignores the effect.

Optimystik
2010-04-04, 06:27 PM
No, the spell isn't dealing the damage, the weapon is. Because of that, I'd say that the swarm still pretty much ignores the effect.

This. The axe flies through the swarm with no discernible effect.