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Paulus
2010-04-05, 11:41 AM
Well, I recently made me a thread in homebrew which got few replies and it made me start thinking. You see I'm in the process of taking Invocations for a spin and was on the whole they look great. I prefer the system to prepared and spont casting in fact. I even prefer it over point systems like Psi and Factotum. But the only problem is there is not much melee to be had with invocations.

For that matter there is very little invocations to be had period. Only two classes that I know of use them. Which brings me to my question to you.
For those who have actually played either the Warlock or the Dragonfire Adept. How do you feel about Invocations compared to the other systems and or do you know of any other classes that would benefit from Invocations? Whats your general opinion on Invocations anyway?

Kuzimu
2010-04-05, 11:48 AM
Invocations are great for the most part, but they are often "Selfish," that is, self-focused, or just straight up melee like the Blast and Shape invocations.

The DFA has some good invocations, and there are fun, flavorful ones in Complete Mage (i.e. one that lets you talk to animals and do wild empathy.)

Take a look at this if you need more invocations!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125678&highlight=invocations

Critical
2010-04-05, 11:57 AM
Invocations are great because you can use them the whole day! :smallbiggrin: Of course, spell-casting is still better, but Invocation-user can pretty much outlast anything. Also, pretty much any class can benefit from invocations.

Optimystik
2010-04-05, 12:35 PM
Invocations are quite well-balanced - strong enough to be useful, but weak enough that unlimited use doesn't make them overpowered.

There's an awful lot of untapped design space there as well. The epic invocations (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) give an idea of what the class is capable of - invocation combos that result in brand new powers if you finish the set.

Paulus
2010-04-05, 12:48 PM
Kind of makes you wonder why they didn't go anywhere else with this, or make classes that could use them.

I would personally love to see a melee class that can use the utility defense side of Invocations. No Dragonfire or Eldricth blast in other words. Anybody seen anything like that?

Also thanks for the links!

lightningcat
2010-04-05, 12:53 PM
I mentioned this on the Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146389) thread, but I would like to see a invocation based Hexblade. The two ideas just seem to go together in my head.
But I've not seen any melee or gish class using invocations.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-05, 12:55 PM
I mentioned this on the Hexblade thread, but I would like to see a invocation based Hexblade. The two ideas just seem to go together in my head.
But I've not seen any melee or gish class using invocations.

Are you familiar with the Glaivelocks?

Though yeah an invocation using hexblade seems like a nifty idea

Optimystik
2010-04-05, 01:01 PM
For a melee-oriented class with an invocation flavor, look no further than Binder.

A (shudder) Truenamer gish can pull off some semi-decent tricks as well, so long as he focuses the Utterances on himself.

Escheton
2010-04-05, 01:03 PM
tome of battle is sorta build around that. Not really invocations, but reuseable maneuvers. But it fits the flavor I think.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-05, 01:15 PM
I mentioned this on the Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146389) thread, but I would like to see a invocation based Hexblade. The two ideas just seem to go together in my head.
But I've not seen any melee or gish class using invocations.

Give me some time and I may be able to dig up an old Hexblade fix I found that used invocations.

If the laws of nature would I allow it, I would bare Google's children. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2565.0)

Paulus
2010-04-05, 02:11 PM
For a melee-oriented class with an invocation flavor, look no further than Binder.

A (shudder) Truenamer gish can pull off some semi-decent tricks as well, so long as he focuses the Utterances on himself.

Urgh... just looking at Binder always makes me wince because I always auto fail my 'defeat laziness' skill. The same reason I don't like prepared nor spont casting is the reason I dislike Vestiges and Maneuvers. Paper work paper work paper work!

Invocations I get, almost on a video game level. Pick this and this, and there you go. Not that I'm saying I am too lazy to learn the new stuff, but honestly one just gets tired of it. I admit unabashedly to being a casual gamer mainly due to time constraints, barely being able to play and all, and I've little time or for that matter patience for learning new systems.The reason I like Invocations is because they are clear cut and easy to understand and use. Like Skills, like Feats, like Combat. Simple easy to use, a few choices and there you go.

Comparatively Binder seems so severely complicated. Combination upon combination to fulfill whatever role I desire to fill also comes with it the roleplaying application of which vestiges to use and changes the way my character looks. It's not TOO much to learn, but in the wake of Invocations it's a bit too much to learn.

Optimystik
2010-04-05, 02:31 PM
I used to feel the same way (and still do about Incarnum, sadly) but that's what handbooks are for (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0) :smallsmile:

It's not just a useful class crunch-wise either - the RP possibilities are limitless.

Also, Binders have even more support than Warlocks, so they are very worth learning. Epic Binders (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a) blow epic warlocks out of the water, and the Class Chronicles give them great stuff too.

(One day, I'll take my own advice, read Sin's Incarnum writeups back to front, and learn the ins and outs of that book...)

Paulus
2010-04-05, 02:45 PM
I used to feel the same way (and still do about Incarnum, sadly) but that's what handbooks are for (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0) :smallsmile:

It's not just a useful class crunch-wise either - the RP possibilities are limitless.

Also, Binders have even more support than Warlocks, so they are very worth learning. Epic Binders (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a) blow epic warlocks out of the water, and the Class Chronicles give them great stuff too.

(One day, I'll take my own advice, read Sin's Incarnum writeups back to front, and learn the ins and outs of that book...)

I suppose this is where I sheepishly mention that I was specifically referring to the handbooks when I spoke of combination upon combination. Heh. Honestly I've looked at both Tome books, magic and battle, and found the same problem with both. People either use them or they don't. Reason being is that they basically upgrade the original system and address some of the faults, but do so but introducing a completely new system.

Like, say you have a country road you enjoy walking down. It's a nice road, calm, quiet, and serene but it has pot holes and does get muddy when it rains. That's core.

Tome of magic/battle and Incarnum is paving that road, with sidewalks, tolls, and road signs. Now you must learn what the sign's mean, and yes there are still pot holes. But there is also a lot of traffic now because so many people also use this road. Some people may like that, love taking drives and what not. Whereas very few use the unpaved road, pot holes and muddy as they are, and yet still some prefer it.

I'm a walker on that country road myself, but I don't mind putting down some gravel from the other books.

Analogies. ah~

Optimystik
2010-04-05, 03:13 PM
ToM is different from the other alternate systems though - it doesn't actually introduce any new mechanics. Everything in ToM uses the standard DMG "Extraordinary, Spell-like, Supernatural" formula.

Incarnum introduces new mechanics (Essentia, Chakra Binds); as does ToB (Maneuvers, Stances.) There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it does present more of a learning curve than a system built solely with existing pieces. Personally, I feel that ToM is the second-best* jumping-off point to learning a new system. It's not like you have to track "Binding Points" or learn a "Mystery Recovery" mechanic.

*the best being Invocations, naturally.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-05, 03:20 PM
ToM is different from the other alternate systems though - it doesn't actually introduce any new mechanics. Everything in ToM uses the standard DMG "Extraordinary, Spell-like, Supernatural" formula.

Incarnum introduces new mechanics (Essentia, Chakra Binds); as does ToB (Maneuvers, Stances.) There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it does present more of a learning curve than a system built solely with existing pieces. Personally, I feel that ToM is the second-best* jumping-off point to learning a new system. It's not like you have to track "Binding Points" or learn a "Mystery Recovery" mechanic.

*the best being Invocations, naturally.

:smallconfused: by that logic, ToB and incarnum stuff isn't new either, as their abilities are also either Ex, Su, or spell like.

Binding (choosing what passive and active abilities you have at the beginning of the day) is fairly similar to incarnum as a base mechanic idea, although they are presented in different ways.

Optimystik
2010-04-05, 03:57 PM
:smallconfused: by that logic, ToB and incarnum stuff isn't new either, as their abilities are also either Ex, Su, or spell like.

I already listed the additions ToB and Incarnum made. At least try to address my post when attempting to refute it.

krossbow
2010-04-05, 03:58 PM
I mentioned this on the Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146389) thread, but I would like to see a invocation based Hexblade. The two ideas just seem to go together in my head.
But I've not seen any melee or gish class using invocations.

I have to admit, my group also thinks that the hexblade and warlock, with curses and invocations/blasts, seem like whole class that was divided in half.

nedz
2010-04-05, 04:54 PM
Warlocks are not really good for melle, even the Glaivelocks are quite fragile.
The're much better at infiltation/counter infiltration.

The class is an interesting 2, 4 or 6 level dip but not very survivably in my experience. Good to combine with Scout. Best use here is to get some interesting powers for your character and not rely too much on the blast.

If you are going for the Eldritch Blaster route then you need Eldritch Lance and one essence. Without 'Lance you have no range, and you need essence to jack up the 'spell' level of the blast.

I've run a few now - mainly as antagonists so as a PC it may be different.

Interesting idea to combine them with Hexblade - I must look at that.

I did run a Demonbinder, but I couldn't see much point in taking more than one level of this ?

bartman
2010-04-05, 07:13 PM
If you are going for the Eldritch Blaster route then you need Eldritch Lance

Where would one find the Eldritch Lance?

JasonP
2010-04-05, 07:16 PM
Where would one find the Eldritch Lance?

I think that is supposed to be Eldritch Spear, one of the Least Blast Shape Invocations in Complete Arcane.

bartman
2010-04-05, 07:24 PM
I figured that, but just wanted to be clear, never know what people have homebrewed

nedz
2010-04-05, 07:36 PM
Oops - sorry it is called Eldritch Spear

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-05, 09:04 PM
I'm a HUGE fan of Invocation-based classes. In fact, I homebrewed four of the base classes to be invocation based: The Wylder (re-written Druid), Bard, Arcanist (to replace Wiz/Sorc), and Priest (to replace Cleric).

Unlimited healing from the Cleric was kinda unbalanced, but I couldn't figure out a way to limit it. The Arcanist was closest to the Warlock in terms of abilities, although they picked up an invocation every level, but had 1/2 BAB and d4 HD. Same thing with the Priest, 1/2 BAB, 1 invocation per level, d4 HD. Wylder and Bard both had 3/4 BAB and 12/20 invocations like a Warlock does.

Optimystik
2010-04-05, 09:32 PM
Unlimited healing from the Cleric was kinda unbalanced, but I couldn't figure out a way to limit it.

The same way the Touch of Healing reserve feat did - let it only take the target up to a percentage of their maximum.