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Sergeantbrother
2010-04-05, 12:10 PM
I was thinking that for some arcane casting characters it might fit in with their flavor for them to know certain spells that are on other lists - such as the cleric or druid spell list. Now, its true that the sorcerer and wizard are already among the most powerful classes, and its not really my intention to make them more powerful. But I figured since clerics and druids are so vastly more powerful than wizards or sorcerers in every area aside from spells (hit points, base attack bonus, armored casting, perks like shape changing, etc.) that their spells must likewise be less powerful than those of arcane casters.

This would mean that an arcane caster isn't really gaining more by knowing those divine spells - since if an arcane caster is spending a turn casting a spell that a cleric can cast then for that turn he's a chump for casting the same spell that somebody with almost twice as many hit points and plate armor is casting. This is particularly true for a sorcerer who knows so few spells - learning a cleric spell may mean giving up a supposedly much better arcane spell.

I can potentially see that maybe there is a flavor reason that only the gods can heal, though that idea isn't consistently obeyed as bards can heal.

Can anybody think of a reason not to allow this?

Eldonauran
2010-04-05, 12:18 PM
Fluff-wise? No reason at all for not allowing it.

Mechanics-wise? It is always a good idea to keep arcane and divine spells seperated, or at least have any of the divine spells cast by an arcane caster be counted as arcane.

Many spells are on both spell-lists, its just important to make sure you count the spell as either arcane or divine and not both.

jiriku
2010-04-05, 12:19 PM
Yeah, bad idea. Your logic train is something like: since wizard spells are better than cleric spells, allowing a wizard to cast cleric spells would not make the wizard more powerful.

However, "more powerful" does not always mean "more dakka". Having more options can make you more powerful. Adding divine spellcasting to an arcane caster gives the character more potential solutions to every problem he faces. Even if the divine spells don't roll as many dice or affect as many 10-foot cubes or last for as many minutes or hours, they still do stuff the arcane spells don't do. That added versatility would significantly improve the power of a wizard or (to a lesser degree) a sorcerer.

Besides, if you want to cast arcane and divine spells in a single class, you can already do it. Play an archivist.

Eclipse
2010-04-05, 01:01 PM
Arcane casters casting heal and miracle? Nope, not broken at all.

Seriously though, as people have said, more options is the real trick here. Wizards are the most powerful class in the game because they have options, not because of individual spells being powerful... though they do have some nicely powerful spells which is a part of their power.

Incidentally, sorcerers can pick up a small complement of divine spells by using the domain access variant in Complete Champion. They lose one sorcerer spell known per level, to be replaced with the spell of the domain they choose. They also gain that domain power. Might I recommend the healing domain?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-05, 01:07 PM
Just to jump in on the band wagon here, both the Euridite and Archivist are considered to be up there in terms of class rankings due to their ability to grab spells and/or powers off of other people's lists for themselves. All non-warmage arcane casters are going to have a solid list of spells: more options for them won't really help the game as a whole.

ericgrau
2010-04-05, 01:22 PM
This would mean that an arcane caster isn't really gaining more by knowing those divine spells
Versatility. Take freedom of movement for example. Or since much of divine casting happens between fights, you are now the epic buffer/healer/remove X affliction-er AND you shine in the fight too. After all most of the time (but not always) these two goals use different level spell slots.

alisbin
2010-04-05, 01:30 PM
well, some spells are only available to cleric that i always felt SHOULD be available to all full casters, like spell resistance (why in the hell does a wizard not get this?)

Emmerask
2010-04-05, 01:36 PM
I was thinking that for some arcane casting characters it might fit in with their flavor for them to know certain spells that are on other lists - such as the cleric or druid spell list. Now, its true that the sorcerer and wizard are already among the most powerful classes, and its not really my intention to make them more powerful. But I figured since clerics and druids are so vastly more powerful than wizards or sorcerers in every area aside from spells (hit points, base attack bonus, armored casting, perks like shape changing, etc.) that their spells must likewise be less powerful than those of arcane casters.

This would mean that an arcane caster isn't really gaining more by knowing those divine spells - since if an arcane caster is spending a turn casting a spell that a cleric can cast then for that turn he's a chump for casting the same spell that somebody with almost twice as many hit points and plate armor is casting. This is particularly true for a sorcerer who knows so few spells - learning a cleric spell may mean giving up a supposedly much better arcane spell.

I can potentially see that maybe there is a flavor reason that only the gods can heal, though that idea isn't consistently obeyed as bards can heal.

Can anybody think of a reason not to allow this?

Giving tier one and two classes anything for free is a bad idea for gamebalance... should be reason enough :smalltongue:

dextercorvia
2010-04-05, 01:38 PM
You can also do this through use of the Arcane Disciple Feat from CD. Making them take a feat helps to balance this. Note that unless they know all spells on their list automatically, they still have to learn these spells the normal way.

Similarly some prestige classes available to Wizards grant access to specific domains. Divine Oracle comes to mind, as easy entry, but Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/MT 10/Whatever 2 also gives your wizard Divine casting. ;)

Eclipse
2010-04-05, 02:51 PM
well, some spells are only available to cleric that i always felt SHOULD be available to all full casters, like spell resistance (why in the hell does a wizard not get this?)

Because wizards get spell turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) and globes of invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) to defend against spells instead. Let's not forget mind blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) is basically immunity to almost the entire school of enchantment magic. Elemental resistance spells cover a large chunk of evocation. And that doesn't even get into things like mirror image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm) and greater invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm) protecting against most physical attacks, with stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm) for those time you absolutely must have DR/adamantine.

So, arcane casters already get a lot of protections, they just need to use them more carefully than spell resistance. And clerics are supposed to be better at protection anyway, as that is their (supposedly) primary role.

Edit: fixed mind blank to say immunity to enchantments. I drew a blank on that one and originally put illusion.

Kylarra
2010-04-05, 03:05 PM
There's also the domain wizard for an assortment of potentially non-sorc/wizard spells added to your list. Admittedly generally considered weaker than the normal specialists, but stronger than the generalist.

Darkfire
2010-04-05, 04:25 PM
Let's not forget mind blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) is basically immunity to almost the entire school of illusion magic.
Mind Blank makes you immune to all Enchantments but only 9 Illusions in core (patterns & phantasms are specifically mind-affecting; figments, glamers and shadows aren't)

True Seeing is what makes you immune to the majority of Illusions.

DarkEternal
2010-04-05, 04:27 PM
I really, really like the Archivist class, at least from what I read about it (Only played PHB I classes myself up to now), so you could try that one out.

Eclipse
2010-04-05, 04:49 PM
Mind Blank makes you immune to all Enchantments but only 9 Illusions in core (patterns & phantasms are specifically mind-affecting; figments, glamers and shadows aren't)

True Seeing is what makes you immune to the majority of Illusions.

Yes, you are right, and I have no idea idea what I was thinking when I wrote illusion instead of enchantment. :smallredface:

Jack_Simth
2010-04-05, 04:58 PM
Incidentally, sorcerers can pick up a small complement of divine spells by using the domain access variant in Complete Champion. They lose one sorcerer spell known per level, to be replaced with the spell of the domain they choose. They also gain that domain power. Might I recommend the healing domain?Incidentally, while there's no actual mechanics to explain how, a Sorcerer can pick up spells from other spell lists, per Core RAW. Unlike all the other casters, a Sorcerer draws their spells primarily from their spell list. No other caster has the qualifier.

Kylarra
2010-04-05, 05:07 PM
Incidentally, while there's no actual mechanics to explain how, a Sorcerer can pick up spells from other spell lists, per Core RAW. Unlike all the other casters, a Sorcerer draws their spells primarily from their spell list. No other caster has the qualifier.Well technically by core RAW, all casters can research a new spell, and that could duplicate an existing spell.:smalltongue:

nargbop
2010-04-05, 05:29 PM
Don't give license to powergamers, they make the game less fun. Wizards with Divine Power and Heal mean that the Cleric's player, who maybe isn't as outspoken, who maybe holds back because he hasn't memorized the dozen spell lists, will have less fun.

krossbow
2010-04-05, 05:36 PM
There's a prestige class called the mystic theurge which would like have a word with you for stealing its entire class for free :smalltongue:

TaintedLight
2010-04-05, 06:10 PM
Really? No love for the Rainbow Servant?

That class essentially does what the OP is talking about as a class feature.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-05, 07:54 PM
By RAW, wizards can already do this, though I don't know anyone that actually plays this way.
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizardís spellbook. No matter what the spellís source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spellís level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.Don't forget, though, that certain classes and creatures can cast a number of divine spells as arcane spells, thus opening them as copyable by a wizard if said creatures write scrolls, unless you don't extend the 'arcane magical writings' to all arcane spells, which is as reasonable as disallowing wizards to learn cleric spells under the quoted rule anyway.

To answer the actual question: Casters are good enough. Don't give them more stuff than the RAW already gives them.

Unless you want a game full of just casters, which is fine too.

obnoxious
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IonDragon
2010-04-06, 02:04 AM
RE: what Irreverent Fool said: The PHB also says that Sorcs can do something similar, but the mechanics are left open. Basically it says: "go ask your GM, but we think it's fine as long as you spend some time on it or something". Sorcs also don't get to just add spells to their spell list, they have to wait till they level up and either bump something off or gain a new slot for spells know.

taltamir
2010-04-06, 03:35 AM
Incidentally, while there's no actual mechanics to explain how, a Sorcerer can pick up spells from other spell lists, per Core RAW. Unlike all the other casters, a Sorcerer draws their spells primarily from their spell list. No other caster has the qualifier.

dragons are explicitly said to have "levels in sorcerer" which they use to take spells from "the sorcerer/wizard list as well as the cleric's".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Spells
A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.

So yes, a dragon can cast miracle as an arcane spell... (which is a lot safer than wish)

Eclipse
2010-04-06, 10:54 AM
dragons are explicitly said to have "levels in sorcerer" which they use to take spells from "the sorcerer/wizard list as well as the cleric's".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm


So yes, a dragon can cast miracle as an arcane spell... (which is a lot safer than wish)

This is true, but this is specific to dragons, which are clearly designed as a monster race/class combo. I don't think PCs are intended to have this, except in a few limited cases, such as the Rainbow Servant.

2xMachina
2010-04-06, 11:44 AM
dragons are explicitly said to have "levels in sorcerer" which they use to take spells from "the sorcerer/wizard list as well as the cleric's".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm


So yes, a dragon can cast miracle as an arcane spell... (which is a lot safer than wish)

... You just solved the problem of an easy Divine StP Erudite.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-06, 12:56 PM
But I figured since clerics and druids are so vastly more powerful than wizards or sorcerers in every area aside from spells (hit points, base attack bonus, armored casting, perks like shape changing, etc.) that their spells must likewise be less powerful than those of arcane casters.

This is false. BAB barely matters outside of Prereqs (Full BAB is very overrated), saves only matter for the first few levels, armor is more costly than just casting Shield/Mage Armor when needed (which is practical around 3rd level), and every member of the Big 6 gets the ability to change forms at their leisure due to spells.


Can anybody think of a reason not to allow this?

To be honest, CoDzilla is near the bottom of the Big 6. They get mentioned a lot due to how easy it is to optimize them into game breaker territory. In order of theoretical power (barring PrCs for the moment), the Big 6 is organized like this:

Psionic Artificer
Artificer/Spell-to-Power Erudite
Archivist
Wizard
CoDzilla

The Psionic Artificer is there because the MiC broke it by accident. Spell-to-Power is on par with the normal Artificer in terms of resources available (Infinite PP vs Infinite WBL).


... You just solved the problem of an easy Divine StP Erudite.


And this is a reason to ban Shivering Touch again.

Telonius
2010-04-06, 01:05 PM
I really don't want to give the Wizard the ability to have a Contingent True Resurrection active.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-06, 01:06 PM
I really don't want to give the Wizard the ability to have a Contingent True Resurrection active.

Not possible with the spell, but with the feat it's been a reality for some time.

Telonius
2010-04-06, 01:13 PM
Yeah, I meant the feat - haven't been keeping track of it, how does he manage to cast it as an arcane spell?

Clovis
2010-04-06, 01:30 PM
We've been homebrewing that for quite some time. My wizard has access to healing domain (and only that) and can cast 'heal xxx wounds' as per the rules concerning clerics without any multiclassing penalties; the only limitation is of course the WIS score. At first this was done because of lack of healing power in the party and we have not removed it even if we have a full cleric and a bard because i) for the background story and ii) it does not really detract from the cleric's role as the healbot, since my wis score is not so high.
On the downside, the local wizards' guild does frown upon all those that dabble in other sources of magic than hermetic, meaning that my wizard can never hope to ascend in ranks in the organisation. I guess this was the DM's way of balancing the game. Works for us.

Volthawk
2010-04-06, 01:34 PM
Psionic Artificer
Artificer/Spell-to-Power Erudite
Archivist
Wizard
CoDzilla


There's a Psionic Artificer?

deuxhero
2010-04-06, 01:39 PM
That's what Arcane Discipline and the bard list are for.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-06, 01:42 PM
There's a Psionic Artificer?

Magic of Eberron. It would have balanced the class out if the MiC didn't make a huge mistake.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-06, 01:47 PM
You're basically saying that Wizards don't have a big enough spell list. Do you really think anyone will buy that argument?

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-06, 06:13 PM
Magic of Eberron. It would have balanced the class out if the MiC didn't make a huge mistake.

You could mention what this huge mistake is, you know.

obnoxious
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Arakune
2010-04-06, 06:20 PM
You could mention what this huge mistake is, you know.

obnoxious
sig

Normal Artificers can only make magic itens based on spells. Psionics Artificers can make itens based on psionics powers (and take psionic itens creation feats) AND still make magic itens based on spells.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-06, 06:24 PM
Normal Artificers can only make magic itens based on spells. Psionics Artificers can make itens based on psionics powers (and take psionic itens creation feats) AND still make magic itens based on spells.

Just managed to find that bit. Who thought extending transparency to item creation was a good idea?

obnoxious
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Tequila Sunrise
2010-04-06, 06:32 PM
I've never seen a convincing argument against one long spell list for everyone. In theory it boosts versatility and therefore power, but any one PC has a limited number of spell slots.

There are already so many spells for every caster class (thanks to splat books) that the thematic and practical division between spell lists has blurred to the point of being a bad joke.

*Casts Energy Resistance (Fire)*

Eclipse
2010-04-06, 07:09 PM
I've never seen a convincing argument against one long spell list for everyone. In theory it boosts versatility and therefore power, but any one PC has a limited number of spell slots.

There are already so many spells for every caster class (thanks to splat books) that the thematic and practical division between spell lists has blurred to the point of being a bad joke.

*Casts Energy Resistance (Fire)*

This is precisely why I require my players to approve anything they do outside of core before allowing it in. I usually will allow it, but checking gives me an extra chance to make sure nothing too overpowered gets in.

Sergeantbrother
2010-04-06, 07:29 PM
I've never seen a convincing argument against one long spell list for everyone. In theory it boosts versatility and therefore power, but any one PC has a limited number of spell slots.

There are already so many spells for every caster class (thanks to splat books) that the thematic and practical division between spell lists has blurred to the point of being a bad joke.

*Casts Energy Resistance (Fire)*

That sounds like a good idea to me. With all of the books out there with cleric spells in particular and the fact that a cleric can memorize any of them, its insane.

Maybe a cleric or other caster with more non-magical powers than a sorcerer or wizard would not get as many spells per day or be able to cast as high level of spells. I'd also like to see everyone know a finite number of spells - so that clerics and druids have to select their spells instead of knowing every possible cleric and druid spell.

In some regard this kinda destroys the cleric, who may as well be a multiclass wizard-fighter who specializes in healing magic. Then again, I have often thought that the cleric fell short of the concept they are supposed to represent.