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ericgrau
2010-04-05, 10:33 PM
I used to think poison has a pretty good sweet spot from levels 4-12, but today's comic shows a very good application against a level 15 foe. My best guess is:

Dragon bile, DC 26, 3d6 strength, 1500 gp
Level 15 wizard fort save: 5 (base) + 3 (con) + 3 (cloak of resitance) = 11; 70% chance of failing the save

Ouch, at 70% success that's more than plausible. 1500 gp is a bit much, but ending the encounter against a foe that would otherwise outclass you is worth quite a bit more. And that's from just one arrow. Conceivably if the attacker also won initiative he could have gotten a full attack as well for a total of 5 arrows with scorpion venom or purple worm poison on them. And these may also deal damage, perhaps even con damage from wounding arrows. All before the wizard lets off a single spell, and all you need to do it is a sneaky class like a rogue, bard or ranger.

So now I wonder what other tricks people can come up with to make good use of poison at high levels. And what about contact poisons, inhaled poisons, ingested poisons and those with good secondary damage? What additional tricks could someone pull with these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison)?

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-05, 10:40 PM
Something available from level 1: warforged shaper using psionic minor creation to create literal bucketfuls of black lotus extract.

Even if the enemy fails only on a nat 1, getting hit with 1,000+ doses of 3d6 Con damage is bound to ruin anyone's day (except those immune to it, anyway).

Also makes those grappling the warforged less than happy, since he and all of his items are coated in it.

[edit] Oh, and combine with a second manifestation of PMC to create small flasks made from very thin amber, and possibly quintessence, to coat them in once they're filled. Lotus grenades that last forever!

Eldariel
2010-04-05, 11:00 PM
Well, obviously the same uses as always; poison someone's food with ingested poison, release inhaled poison in a social situation (or e.g. generate a trap that triggers when someone enters or exits or such; useful for when not wanting to be detected), use Contact Poison as Injury-poison except with the option of touch attacking against high Fort opponents or simply mixed with something harmless you accidentally spill on 'em or some such.

Of course, as the levels grow higher, the amount of people you want poison against immune again keeps growing (Heroes' Feast, Druid 9, etc.) as with just about every other non-straightforward approach, so the value drops considerably, especially against people with access to divine magical capabilities through either their own ability or service of someone with said ability.

As such, your original hypothesis regarding the level range was correct though even then, you are better off manufacturing your own poisons if you intend on using them heavily as the costs for effects truly worth adding are prohibitive. Though Druids, Wizards, various manifesters and characters with Vermin Trainer + high Handle Animal all have free ways of generating some, I suppose.


That said, yeah, on high levels the efficiency simply wanes as immunity becomes more available. I, for example, am dumbfounded V isn't under Extended Heroes' Feast effect right now even though Durkon is in the party. Well, that and his apparent lack of solid Contingency (e.g. on Resilient Sphere).

Optimystik
2010-04-05, 11:05 PM
Why yes, poison does kill bad wizards. And yes, V is a bad wizard.

Next question!

ericgrau
2010-04-05, 11:15 PM
Eh, in core wizards don't really have a defense without allies. Yeah, it is surprising that Durkon didn't prepare something though. Thing is neutralize poison is only a good defense in dungeons, as it is too short of a duration to last all day. Hero's feast really is their only option, and what if it just so happens that Durkon didn't prepare that spell? What if he wants to use his 2nd or 3rd highest spell slot on something that gives a bit more than a measly +1? Such as heal, greater dispel, wind walk, and a thunder domain spell. Whoops, level full. And swapping out any of these could have dire consequences on previous comic events. Making casters psychic is not a fair assumption. PCs and monsters can and do get caught by surprise, maybe even twice in the same session.

Optimystik
2010-04-05, 11:24 PM
Eh, in core wizards don't really have a defense without allies.
...
Making casters psychic is not a fair assumption. PCs and monsters can and do get caught by surprise, maybe even twice in the same session.

Contact Other Plane. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ContactOtherPlane.htm)

"Will at least one entity try to poison me today?"

Akal Saris
2010-04-05, 11:26 PM
Well, I'm going to toot my own horn a bit and link The Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0), by myself. It's about using poisons in 3.5, quite simply.

Secondly, poison immunity isn't actually that widespread. I remember a classic Ftr vs Wizard thread that ended with a fighter "win" because the wizard's laundry list of immunities neglected poisons (this then spawned another 10 pages of "But a REAL WIZARD would have been immune because the perfect player would have remembered poisons!"). And V doesn't have many options to get immunity on her own either, since the campaign doesn't have magic-marts and she's still only level 11.

Extended Heroes' Feast is a good idea, but it takes an hour to eat the food and it's too high level for Durkon to cast anyhow. Especially since he probably needs all his 6th level slots for Wind Walk and Find the Path right now. Also, the party wasn't expecting an ambush, and Xykon and his minions have never shown much interest in using poisons. From a metagame perspective, it makes perfect sense that they're not using Heroes' Feast at the moment. I'm with ericgrau on this one.

And another thing: Contingency (Resilient Sphere) would have gotten V killed in this instance - he'd get hit by the arrow, croak out the trigger (or maybe it would be triggered when he was hit) - and BAM! Suddenly Elan has no way to touch V and cast Neutralize Poison! 10 rounds later and 3d6 more Str damage = dead elf.

On poisons:

For mid-high levels (Maybe ECL 15 or so), how's this: a +1 Githcraft Silver Assassination, Toxic, Virulent Dagger and a Tooth of Leraje (Cost: ~33,000g for the dagger and 20,000g for the Tooth). The tooth gives a 24-hour Greater Magic Weapon (+5), so in total the dagger is automatically weapon finessable, pierces silver DR, has +5 attack/damage, +5 to poison DCs, allows you to use poisons without having Poison Use, each poison applied lasts two hits, and the secondary effect comes in 5 rounds rather than 1 minute.

So in other words, Dragon Bile would be DC 31, 3d6 Str, apply twice before wearing off, and would hit you with another jolt in 5 rounds (and then again from the second hit with poison). So 12d6 Str Damage (average 36!) in 5 rounds, and V probably needs a natural 20 to save against it.

Also, while Black Lotus Poison is a perennial favorite, it's also a low DC of 20, so unless you're using bucketfuls of it the DC is too low past level 12 or so. However:
* DC 44: Megapede Venom (DS)
* DC 34: Svakalor Venom, Greater (Dungeonscape)
* DC 33: Colossal Scorpion Venom)
* DC 33: Greensickness (Dungeonscape)
* DC 28: Colossal Spider Venom
* DC 27: Pit Fiend venom (Dungeonscape)
* DC 27: Colossal Purple Worm Venom (DS)
* DC 26: Dragon Bile (DMG)
* DC 25: Purple Worm Poison (DMG).
Ignoring the 3.0 poisons from BoVD that were updated in Dungeonscape, there are a lot of poisons which a mid-high level mage will almost certainly fail her save against. Greater Svakalor Venom is one of my favorites, since it's a DC 34 paralysis + Con damage. But Greensickness can also be made with Minor Creation, and it's DC 33, easily hitting DC 40-44 with a bit of effort.

A pair of poison-using builds that I'm proud of:

The "I can apply 10 poisons in a round, what can you do?" Duskblade.
Human Duskblade 20
Role: party tank/damage

Feats:
1st hmn: Master of Poisons
1st char: Poison Spell
3rd char: Obtain Familiar
6th char: Improved Familiar
9th char: Smiting Spell
12th char: Arcane Strike
15th char: Arcane Disciple (Artifice domain)
18th char: Open

Use of poisons: at early levels can apply one dose of poison over multiple rounds with chill touch. Then at 3rd can use his familiar's poisons as raw materials, and hit an opponent with 2 doses of poison in 1 round using Channel Spell with a poisoned touch spell and with a poisoned sword. At 6th he can have a combat familiar or one with a stronger poison, who can also deliver a poisonous touch spell for him.

At 9th he gains smiting spell, allowing him to release an extra touch spell in a fight (also carrying poison), and at 13th every opponent hit with the poisoned touch spell from channel spell in a full attack action is poisoned. Later he rounds out the abilities with some common gish picks. With channel spell, smiting spell, a spell storing weapon, a poisoned blade, and quick cast, he can hit 1 opponent with 5 poisons (and 4 touch spells) in a single round, and then apply 1 touch spell and poison to everyone else hit in that round. Talk about going nova! Finally, starting at 15th he can use Minor Creation and Fabricate to make his own poisons magically.

The Bag o' Potions Rogue
Human Rogue 1/Diviner 5/Unseen Seer 9/Alchemist Savant 5
Role: Skills/trap-finder

Feats:
1st hmn: Able Learner
1st char: Master of Poisons
2nd diviner bonus: Quick Draw (UA Fighter feats ACF)
3rd char: Two-weapon Fighting
6th char: Favored in House (Cannith)
6th diviner bonus: Rapid Shot (ACF)
9th char: Poison Spell
12th char: Brew Potion
15th char: Craven
18th char: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
BAB +9, CL 19, SA +4d6+20.
Use of poisons:can use his familiar's poisons as raw materials starting at 2nd level, and later can fabricate poisons himself. Basically, his schtick is throwing vials of poisons and alchemical substances with ranged touch attacks along with sneak attacks. At 20th level with a BAB of +9, he can throw 5 spellvials a round, each one containing a 3rd level spell laced with poison from poison spell as well as a poison or alchemical substance mixed with it, (so 10 poisons and 5 spells) as well as dealing 4d6+20 sneak attack on each hit (10d6+20 with hunter's eye, that ranger spell he gets from Unseen Seer). Plus, he casts as a 19th level wizard, you know - just for kicks.

ericgrau
2010-04-05, 11:27 PM
Contact Other Plane. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ContactOtherPlane.htm)

"Will at least one entity try to poison me today?"
Yo-, what, seriously? That's your Contact-Other-Plane question? Um, yeah,


Making casters psychic is not a fair assumption.


EDIT: Thanks for Poison Handbook link, I'll take a look.

Eldariel
2010-04-05, 11:31 PM
Eh, in core wizards don't really have a defense without allies. Yeah, it is surprising that Durkon didn't prepare something though. Thing is neutralize poison is only a good defense in dungeons, as it is too short of a duration to last all day. Hero's feast really is their only option, and what if it just so happens that Durkon didn't prepare that spell? What if he wants to use his 2nd or 3rd highest spell slot on something that gives a bit more than a measly +1? Such as heal, greater dispel, wind walk, and a thunder domain spell. Whoops, level full. And swapping out any of these could have dire consequences on previous comic events. Making casters psychic is not a fair assumption. PCs and monsters can and do get caught by surprise, maybe even twice in the same session.

Well, it's generally good practice to ensure that if an all-day buff covering big, hard checks exists, you have it. Extended Heroes' Feast is an excellent spell for Cleric to either cast (through Rod) or to prepare every day. Between Dragons, huge Vermins, Pit Fiends and such, high-level Fear and Poison have high save DCs and brutal consequences. The reason these abilities can be as strong as they are is really Heroes' Feast; an easy immunity button means they won't TPK the party even if the saves are very difficult to make (Colossal Monstrous Scorpion, CR 12, Poison DC 33 for 1d10 Con anyone? Though its CR is lowered by lack of intellect and flight too; though it still does enjoy a nice vertical reach - or Colossal Monstrous Spider, CR 11, Poison DC 28 for 2d8 Str). On the flipside, not having said immunity might TPK you.

And in Core, Wizards still have Contingency and a level 15 Wizard should have +6 Con item (first priority after Int +6 and CL booster(s), tho obviously outside NPC wealth), +5 Cloak (only 25k) and a wishless Luckblade (next obvious purchase; also provides a reroll). Which at least gives him +16 to the save, which is 55%; not amazing, but with a reroll, the first save shouldn't fail. And as that's all the attacks one can do on a surprise round, that should be enough.


And another thing: Contingency (Resilient Sphere) would have gotten V killed in this instance - he'd get hit by the arrow, croak out the trigger (or maybe it would be triggered when he was hit) - and BAM! Suddenly Elan has no way to touch V and cast Neutralize Poison! 10 rounds later and 3d6 more Str damage = dead elf.

Depends on activation of the Contingency. Also, Str-damage does not kill. Ever. No, not even then.

taltamir
2010-04-05, 11:38 PM
I used to think poison has a pretty good sweet spot from levels 4-12, but today's comic shows a very good application against a level 15 foe. My best guess is:

Dragon bile, DC 26, 3d6 strength, 1500 gp
Level 15 wizard fort save: 5 (base) + 3 (con) + 3 (cloak of resitance) = 11; 70% chance of failing the save

my level 13 wizard (level 12 actually due to item crafting) has 14 base con and amulet of +6, so a total con bonus of +5, +5 from cloak of resist +5, and a +2 from loremaster secret (only reason he doesn't get another +2 from rat familiar is because he has an improved familiar... imp to be precise)...
so total con bonus should be higher...

Also... V is level 15, even without +CL items his protection from arrows spell lasts 15 hours (he is shown casting it during the battle for azure city).
Adventure 15 hours, cast rope trick (lasts 15 hours), sleep in rope trick for 8 hours, prepare spells for an hour. 15 + 8 + 1 = 24 hours. He still has 6 more hours worth of rope trick... a lower level wizard will spend more hours in rope trick and less adventuring...

this applies to ALL the all day buffs. Overland flight is also hour/level... and other cool buffs.

so. this is all nice and good for a comics plot, but not effective in a standard DnD game.

Eldariel
2010-04-05, 11:39 PM
Also... V is level 15, even without +CL items his protection from arrows spell lasts 15 hours (he is shown casting it during the battle for azure city).

Magic Bolt.

taltamir
2010-04-05, 11:40 PM
Magic Bolt.

which magic specifically overcomes protection from arrows?

sofawall
2010-04-05, 11:42 PM
which magic specifically overcomes protection from arrows?

Any of them.

Eldariel
2010-04-05, 11:42 PM
which magic specifically overcomes protection from arrows?

Quote V: "It would appear to be a Strength-draining poison...on magical bolts, no less." Protection from Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm) grants DR 10/Magic. Yes, it's a lousy spell outside military conflict with lots of low-level mooks of potential relevance around.

Claudius Maximus
2010-04-05, 11:43 PM
Str-damage does not kill. Ever. No, not even then.

Shadows can kill with strength damage.

Eldariel
2010-04-05, 11:45 PM
Shadows can kill with strength damage.

Oh. Buggernation.

taltamir
2010-04-05, 11:46 PM
Shadows can kill with strength damage.

Thats the shadow's supernatural ability... not the str damage...
also, thanks for the correction, I forgot about it being /magic for protection from arrows

tsk... V must have forgotten to buff up his fort saves.

Eldariel
2010-04-05, 11:47 PM
Thats the shadow's supernatural ability... not the str damage...

He was correcting my "Str damage can't kill ever"-statement. Turns out using "ever" in the context of D&D is a bad idea. Who knew.

taltamir
2010-04-05, 11:48 PM
He was correcting my "Str damage can't kill ever"-statement. Turns out using "ever" in the context of D&D is a bad idea. Who knew.

well... in the context of DnD "always" doesn't mean always and so on (this is official actually... an alignment of "always" actually means usually... its right there in the MM)

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-05, 11:52 PM
One real trick with neutralize poison is to cast it on the creature that delivers poison not on the victim. Though when humanoids are applying it to weapons it isn't much good.

Looking at that arrows trajectory, I think it may have missed Elan anyway.

Akal Saris
2010-04-05, 11:55 PM
Contact Other Plane. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ContactOtherPlane.htm)

"Will at least one entity try to poison me today?"

This is one of those smart-alecky "A wizard can do anything!!" replies that really irritates me.

OK, so let's say V casts Contact Other Plane.

V gets about 7 questions in a casting, and I don't think that's going to be on the list. "Where is the person who gets groceries for the illusionist?" and "Has Xykon found his phylactery yet?" is more likely. On a more personal note, "Are my mate and children in danger?" is another question she probably asks every time.

Even if she used multiple castings and eventually asked that specific question, unlikely given that she -again- needs to use spell slots for more critical things like Teleport, there's a 12% chance to 66% chance that the casting will go wrong or have no answer. The answer might be blocked by specific things as well: the Goblin's deity, Tiamat (quite likely, given that it's a high level lizardman assassin), or the homebrewed epic Cloister spell all could easily prevent the divination from working properly. From a character standpoint, V probably doesn't prepare many divinations, given how useless they proved while she was trying to contact Haley and Elan.

And each casting has a chance of hitting her with a variant Feeblemind for a week to 5 weeks - she probably only fails the roll on a 1, but if she casts the spell 20 times - lets say she's paranoid and casts it twice a day, that means in 10 days - then she'll fail the check eventually. Then she's out of commission for a LONG time, and since a deity did it directly, there's probably nothing that mortal magic can really do to help her in that time period.

So no, Contact Other Plane does not make V invincible. It could even seriously hinder the party by sending them the wrong way or by knocking V out of commission, especially when he needs slots for Teleport or whatever.

Responding to other stuff:
-V is listed as level 14 in the class and level geekery thread. As an elf and a poor player, her con is under 12 and we don't know what her cloak gives (probably +3). So her fort save is almost assuredly horrible. As I mentioned, the game doesn't have Magic-Marts, only what the PCs find - so has a Headband +4, and apparently no +Con items. They're all undergeared for their level, in part because they've spent so many resources on the resistance fight, losing items in prisons and the like, and on resurrecting Roy.

-Yeah, my bad on str damage. To be fair, the only character I play who uses strength damage poison is a Master of Shrouds, who kills things with poisons and shadows. Point is, Resilient Sphere only makes the situation worse sometimes.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-05, 11:58 PM
As I mentioned, the game doesn't have Magic-Marts, only what the PCs find - so has a Headband +4, and apparently no +Con items. They're all undergeared for their level, in part because they've spent so many resources on the resistance fight, losing items in prisons and the like, and on resurrecting Roy.

Oh really it doesn't have magic marts, must I really poor back through the pages and show you when they've gone magic item shopping?

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 12:04 AM
Yo-, what, seriously? That's your Contact-Other-Plane question? Um, yeah,

Yes, seriously. If anti-poison spell slots are at a premium as you proposed (they aren't really, if you take the time to set up a Contingency), isn't it responsible to find out if you'll be needing them that day?

Speaking of Contingency, that's another useful tactic for the non-brain damaged wizard. From Complete Arcane:

"Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded."


OK, so let's say V casts Contact Other Plane.

I didn't bother reading the rest of your rant. Where did I say Vaarsuvius would be casting this spell?

Akal Saris
2010-04-06, 01:32 AM
First off, I just updated my handbook a few minutes ago, to add a bunch of stuff that had sort of piled up on my to-do list. Huzzah for that :smallbiggrin:


Oh really it doesn't have magic marts, must I really poor back through the pages and show you when they've gone magic item shopping?

Alright, I'll clarify: it has crappy magic-marts that sell under priced potions of Heroism :smalltongue: Seriously though, feel free to list the pages where they go magic item shopping, they're usually pretty funny.

Optimystik: Because your previous post was about V?

Short, non-V related version of the rant: Contact Other Plane has a chance of screwing up on each question, might incapacitate the caster for several weeks, and powerful spells and individuals can also mess it up. Use it sparingly and with a grain of salt, as it were. It's not the i-win button everybody seems to assume it is.

taltamir
2010-04-06, 03:40 AM
can a person with "overland flight" on who has been reduced to 0 str still fly?

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 05:31 AM
Optimystik: Because your previous post was about V?

So? I don't recall him knowing Contact Other Plane, and I doubt that spell would be useful in OotS with the gods as idiotic as they are. The OP was asking about poisoning wizards in general, not about poisoning Vaarsuvius.



Short, non-V related version of the rant: Contact Other Plane has a chance of screwing up on each question, might incapacitate the caster for several weeks, and powerful spells and individuals can also mess it up. Use it sparingly and with a grain of salt, as it were. It's not the i-win button everybody seems to assume it is.

Obviously not, but I'll take a 70-84% chance over flipping a coin any day.

Saph
2010-04-06, 06:07 AM
Short, non-V related version of the rant: Contact Other Plane has a chance of screwing up on each question, might incapacitate the caster for several weeks, and powerful spells and individuals can also mess it up. Use it sparingly and with a grain of salt, as it were. It's not the i-win button everybody seems to assume it is.

Hindsight is 20/20. Whenever something like this happens in the comic, we invariably get a few weeks worth of people claiming "Well of course, any REAL wizard would be prepared for this situation" (because as we know, tabletop gamers never make a mistake or fail to prepare for a possible danger). This is where the forum joke about Schrodinger's Wizard comes from.

Boci
2010-04-06, 06:32 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. Whenever something like this happens in the comic, we invariably get a few weeks worth of people claiming "Well of course, any REAL wizard would be prepared for this situation" (because as we know, tabletop gamers never make a mistake or fail to prepare for a possible danger). This is where the forum joke about Schrodinger's Wizard comes from.

It is undeniable that gamers will frequently grant perfect foresight to any wizard PC, but the fact that a wizard can solve almost any problem with X spells still counts for something, even if they may not always have it. The fighter does not have class features which allow it to neutralize practically any threat with minimal effort.



Secondly, poison immunity isn't actually that widespread.

But even if the creature isn't immune, its a scalling fortitude save versus the posion's static one. How much do the DC: 44 poisons you listed cost?

Also, you are aware you still poison yourself on a natural 1 when attacking? Posion use only allows you to put venom on a blade without risk, no mention of wielding it as far as I recall.


I remember a classic Ftr vs Wizard thread that ended with a fighter "win" because the wizard's laundry list of immunities neglected poisons (this then spawned another 10 pages of "But a REAL WIZARD would have been immune because the perfect player would have remembered poisons!").

The 20th level fighter build that used poisons? Yeah, would it have been too much effort to at least try and make it look like his build was not specifically tailored towards the single arena fight? (I am refering to the halfling thrower build that chucked poisoned daggers I saw in the fighter versus wizards threads, if he was a normal fighter who just happened to purchase a batch of poison then that is perfectly acceptable tactics).

Gorbash
2010-04-06, 06:53 AM
Dragon bile, DC 26, 3d6 strength, 1500 gp
Level 15 wizard fort save: 5 (base) + 3 (con) + 3 (cloak of resitance) = 11; 70% chance of failing the save


More realistic look would be: 5 (base) + 5 (con) + 2 (familiar) + 6 (superior resistance) = 18

And that's just the average. My 15th lvl Wizard (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=589) has Fort +22. And thanks to Elemental Body is immune to poison anyways.

sofawall
2010-04-06, 07:04 AM
More realistic look would be: 5 (base) + 5 (con) + 2 (familiar) + 6 (superior resistance) = 18

1: Why would you take a fort granting familiar instead of a hummingbird, raven or Imp?
2: That was describing V, not Wizardy McWizardton.

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 07:09 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. Whenever something like this happens in the comic, we invariably get a few weeks worth of people claiming "Well of course, any REAL wizard would be prepared for this situation" (because as we know, tabletop gamers never make a mistake or fail to prepare for a possible danger). This is where the forum joke about Schrodinger's Wizard comes from.

*shrug* It's not my fault V has a poor build. Honestly, how much of a leap is it for a Wizard to have an active Contingency if he becomes helpless? Plenty of WotC's own sample wizards have one.

There's a difference between Schrodinger's Wizard, and simple common sense.

Gorbash
2010-04-06, 07:31 AM
1: Why would you take a fort granting familiar instead of a hummingbird, raven or Imp?

Hummingbird is from Dragon Magazine, so not really present in every game.

And I'd take Fort granting familiar, well because he grants +2 on fort saves. I don't need him to use wands or whatever because I can cast Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and cast better spells.


That was describing V, not Wizardy McWizardton.

OP said that using poisons is a good way to dispatch a lvl 15 foe. I'm merely saying that 15th lvl wizard wouldn't be that easy target. V would, but like some said, he's a bad wizard. Average wizard will have AT LEAST +16 fort save (meaning 55% of succeeding that save) and Batmen will either be outright immune to it or have 20+ fort save.

Saph
2010-04-06, 07:35 AM
There's a difference between Schrodinger's Wizard, and simple common sense.

Well, your first response (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8230697&postcount=103) to the events of today's comic was to say that V should have used Protection from Arrows - which wouldn't have worked. After this was pointed out, your next recommendation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8231110&postcount=6) was to use Contact Other Plane - which is actively self-destructive. You're now saying that the correct answer's Contingency and that this is "simple common sense".

Now, there are two ways to read this. The harsh interpretation would be that by your own logic you have no common sense. The more generous interpretation would be to say that D&D strategy is complicated, and thus it's very easy to miss something; failing to have the perfect solution prepared in advance doesn't make you a moron. Personally, I think the second interpretation is more reasonable. What do you think?

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 07:50 AM
Well, your first response (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8230697&postcount=103) to the events of today's comic was to say that V should have used Protection from Arrows - which wouldn't have worked. After this was pointed out, your next recommendation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8231110&postcount=6) was to use Contact Other Plane - which is actively self-destructive. You're now saying that the correct answer's Contingency and that this is "simple common sense".

For the last time, my mention of Contact Other Plane had nothing to do with V.

Read the opening post of this thread - he is talking about wizards in general, not Vaarsuvius. If you honestly think COP works properly in OotS, you missed every single strip containing the gods.


Now, there are two ways to read this. The harsh interpretation would be that by your own logic you have no common sense.

Anyone can come to that conclusion by failing to read.

Saph
2010-04-06, 07:57 AM
For the last time, my mention of Contact Other Plane had nothing to do with V.

Read the opening post of this thread - he is talking about wizards in general, not Vaarsuvius. If you honestly think COP works properly in OotS, you missed every single strip containing the gods.

Anyone can come to that conclusion by failing to read.

I'm not trying to get at you, Optimystik. I'm trying to show that always having the exact correct solution prepared in advance is a lot more difficult than people think. Everyone makes mistakes - it's a given, particularly if you're trying to do several other things at the same time.

So to bring the topic back to the OP, it's possible that a given mid- to high-level wizard will be immune to poison, and it's also possible that they won't be. It's more complicated than whether you're a "bad wizard" or not.

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 08:16 AM
I'm not trying to get at you, Optimystik. I'm trying to show that always having the exact correct solution prepared in advance is a lot more difficult than people think. Everyone makes mistakes - it's a given, particularly if you're trying to do several other things at the same time.

So to bring the topic back to the OP, it's possible that a given mid- to high-level wizard will be immune to poison, and it's also possible that they won't be. It's more complicated than whether you're a "bad wizard" or not.

You don't need an "exact correct solution prepared in advance" in order to not be bad at your job.

As a wizard, your number one defense is your magic. So rather than plan for everything that could specifically befall you, you just need to prepare for a situation where you won't have your magic, and count on your magic to handle everything else. Your number one priority is not to let yourself become helpless.

I called V a bad wizard, because his options in this regard are severely limited. But my mention of COP was a response to the OP's blanket statement - "poison is an effective tactic against a level 15 wizard."

Even Xykon gets it. To paraphrase:

"Power isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just are.

If you can lose it by blowing one fort save, you never really had any power in the first place, see what I'm saying?"


My addition in bold. If all it takes to rob a level 14-15 wizard of all his power is smearing some gunk on a 40gp magic arrow, then he is a bad wizard. I stand by that statement.

Now V may yet prove me wrong (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html) and turn this fight around. I wait with bated breath.

Saph
2010-04-06, 08:28 AM
My addition in bold. If all it takes to rob a level 14-15 wizard of all his power is smearing some gunk on a 40gp magic arrow, then he is a bad wizard. I stand by that statement.

*shrug* Then by your standards, any wizard you played would probably be a bad wizard too, since that level of preparedness requires a reasonably accurate knowledge of how spells work. Your prerogative, though.

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 08:31 AM
*shrug* Then by your standards, any wizard you played would probably be a bad wizard too, since that level of preparedness requires a reasonably accurate knowledge of how spells work. Your prerogative, though.

Given that mine don't ban conjuration, and can thus escape/be useful even if dropped to 0 Str, we'll have to agree to disagree.

ericgrau
2010-04-06, 08:38 AM
Abandoning the party so you can teleport to mere safety and get hunted down again later - fighting alone - isn't much better. Unlike the Schrodinger wizard, your enemies don't need to be psychic to bring a dimensional anchor. V doesn't know where her other allies are; they are already at the meeting point.

Being royally screwed when caught unprepared is the essence of the core wizard right from the Player's Handbook. Being exactly what you're supposed to be does not mean the player is poor. Powergamers can get around this with enough books, but OotS seems to be mostly core. Theoretical optimization can get around this with hindsight, but this is not how reality works, besides being a direct contradiction to "when caught unprepared". That's the whole point: sometimes everyone makes mistakes or gets surprised or simply cannot prepare for everything even if they could prepare for each thing individually.

No, Durkon could not have feasibly prepared for it for multiple reasons, one of which I mentioned was that his spell slots were already used for things that are better the other 95% of the time. That's the Schrodinger's Wizard: As nice as poison immunity is there are too many critical things to get and you simply cannot get them all; except in theoretical discussion forums :smalltongue:. In this case we even have specific examples of what better spells Durkon has in fact prepared. Theory has hit a trap so specific that it can no longer handwave itself out of it with Schrodinger speculation.

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 08:50 AM
Abandoning the party so you can teleport to mere safety and get hunted down again later - fighting alone - isn't much better. V doesn't know where her other allies are; they are already at the meeting point.

So yell for them to touch you, and take them with you. That's the beauty of teleport - multiple passengers.


Being royally screwed when caught unprepared is the essence of the core wizard right from the Player's Handbook.

If that were true, why would they put Contingency in the Player's Handbook? The entire point of that spell is so you're not "royally screwed when caught unprepared."

For that matter, why put any divinations in the PHB at all?

ericgrau
2010-04-06, 08:57 AM
Arguably you have to touch them not vis versa, but regardless it is likely that the draconic assassin knew his target. Bringing a dimensional anchor, if necessary, would not require any powers of prediction. If anything not bringing one against any caster shows that he knows his target, or else it's because he hasn't hit round 2 yet in which case unless he goes dead last on initiative he will do so before the group has a chance to get away.

Remainder of post already addressed.

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 09:00 AM
Arguably you have to touch them not vis versa,

If they're touching you, you're touching them, by definition.


but regardless it is likely that the draconic assassin knew his target. Bringing a dimensional anchor, if necessary, would not require any powers of prediction.

Who's invoking Schrodinger now? :smallamused:

Anyway, I'm not faulting any wizard for being prepared, and having his preparations fail. I'm faulting a wizard that isn't prepared at all.

If you have a teleport as your escape plan and your opponent nails you with Dimensional Anchor, hey, at least you tried. That's a lot better than "gosh, I hope nobody restricts my movement in some way, but I'll just go ahead and not plan for that eventuality, that's too much work."

ericgrau
2010-04-06, 09:47 AM
... The Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)...
I liked the tricks to get the secondary damage to apply earlier. And the ways to boost the DC. And the great variety of poisons available. Keeps things quite interesting, especially for those who want to play with poisons a lot. But on to my next question, unless I missed it while skimming your guide:


Well, obviously the same uses as always; poison someone's food with ingested poison, release inhaled poison in a social situation (or e.g. generate a trap that triggers when someone enters or exits or such; useful for when not wanting to be detected), use Contact Poison as Injury-poison except with the option of touch attacking against high Fort opponents or simply mixed with something harmless you accidentally spill on 'em or some such.

Okay, I suppose my real question was how do you get to the monster's food? Scrying doesn't last very long if you want to try to find them when they're eating. Maybe you sneak through the whole dungeon and find their cooking pots? Is there a more straightforward way without the DM saying, "Oh, um, I didn't think about how they cooked their food. I guess it would be, here?"

Any ideas for simple traps to drop inhaled poisons? Balance them on top of a door that's been cracked open? :smalltongue: Ooh, just for lols you could then set up an empty vial coated with contact poison on the next door, to get the enemy when he tries to remove it. While you could chuck inhaled poison in combat instead most of their damage seems to be secondary. Any better ideas for simple traps?

Sliver
2010-04-06, 11:06 AM
Okay, I suppose my real question was how do you get to the monster's food?

Fill the bard with poison, throw bard at monster.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-06, 11:10 AM
Fill the bard with poison, throw bard at monster.

I think you mean the Fighter Truenamer. He'll at least be useful for a change.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-06, 11:27 AM
Heroes feast 1/day cost 14K according to MIC.

I'm surprised more adventurer's don't buy it.

Eldariel
2010-04-06, 11:29 AM
Okay, I suppose my real question was how do you get to the monster's food? Scrying doesn't last very long if you want to try to find them when they're eating. Maybe you sneak through the whole dungeon and find their cooking pots? Is there a more straightforward way without the DM saying, "Oh, um, I didn't think about how they cooked their food. I guess it would be, here?"

Depends on the monster, of course. Though this is more useful for killing humanoids, obviously. Especially when nobody suspects you. Playing an assassin is quite fun. Anyways, most humanoid monsters need some manner of food storage.

Sufficient castings of Greater Prying Eyes, Greater Scrying or simply some invisible stalking with a healthy dose of teleportation and flight is a decent start for e.g. seeking any manner of food storage. Clairvoyance can also help, and if you really have trouble locating the place, draw a map of the whole lair with squares and Commune or Contact Other Plane to figure in which square (on the map) the "kitchen" is. Drinking water (if they need such a thing) is quite possibly easier to poison though if they are fed magically, it gets a bit harder.

And most beasts will eat what they can hunt. Many eat carrion. If you know a lair's location, a poisoned carcass seems like an easy option. Sufficient application of poison should mean the chances of 'em eating the poisoned section is very high. Unseen Servant can be an interesting delivery method.


Any ideas for simple traps to drop inhaled poisons? Balance them on top of a door that's been cracked open? :smalltongue: Ooh, just for lols you could then set up an empty vial coated with contact poison on the next door, to get the enemy when he tries to remove it. While you could chuck inhaled poison in combat instead most of their damage seems to be secondary. Any better ideas for simple traps?

Well, any simple mechanical trap; pressure plate that breaks a vial, simple trapwire that opens a vent (or breaks a container or whatever), small airtight pit filled with noxious vapors (with the "roof" of the pit broken as someone steps on it), etc. First-grade mechanicals from trap school :smallbiggrin:

Sliver
2010-04-06, 12:33 PM
I think you mean the Fighter Truenamer. He'll at least be useful for a change.

The truenamer has no use because he wasn't made in the first place!

If I had a truenamer follower, I would force him to pay me to keep him around...

Boci
2010-04-06, 01:12 PM
Abandoning the party so you can teleport to mere safety and get hunted down again later - fighting alone - isn't much better. .

If you are helpless then why is teleporting away a problem? If your party will die without you, they will also die with your paralyzed body in the middle of the fight.

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 01:33 PM
If you are helpless then why is teleporting away a problem? If your party will die without you, they will also die with your paralyzed body in the middle of the fight.

Well, the enemy might trip over you and provoke an AoO. :smalltongue:

Boci
2010-04-06, 01:40 PM
Well, the enemy might trip over you and provoke an AoO. :smalltongue:

Or more likely when they coup de grace you.

Sliver
2010-04-06, 01:47 PM
Or more likely when they coup de grace you.

Mid-combat? If the DM takes a PC with poison, the effects will last long after the combat, so you can be sure that a CdG mid combat is more likely to be "I want to kill you" more then anything else... Sure, he could say that they were henchmen that the BBEG sent so that they lose something but really...

Most of the time it's too big of an effort (have to start turn next to, provokes...) and gives no boost to the one who does it unless it's really 2 rounds of helplessness... Otherwise, it makes no difference for an opponent that plans to live beyond that fight. Makes things worse actually, because it costs a round, more if he didn't start next to him.

Optimystik
2010-04-06, 01:53 PM
Mid-combat? If the DM takes a PC with poison, the effects will last long after the combat, so you can be sure that a CdG mid combat is more likely to be "I want to kill you" more then anything else... Sure, he could say that they were henchmen that the BBEG sent so that they lose something but really...

Most of the time it's too big of an effort (have to start turn next to, provokes...) and gives no boost to the one who does it unless it's really 2 rounds of helplessness... Otherwise, it makes no difference for an opponent that plans to live beyond that fight. Makes things worse actually, because it costs a round, more if he didn't start next to him.

Your dead weight lying around is still a tactical consideration for your allies. If they retreat, you are left with the enemy, free to be CDG'ed. If you teleport away, however, your allies are free to escape without having to keep themselves in danger for your welfare.

And all of that is assuming you don't just take them with you. Telling them to touch you isn't just possible with 0 Str, it's still a free action.

Akal Saris
2010-04-07, 12:26 AM
If Saph and ericgrau both agree with me, then I know I'm arguing the right thing :smalltongue:

Thanks for the comments on the handbook, ericgrau :) I'd like to add more on strategies, but I also feel like the handbook might be too long as it is already. Hrm.

For ingested poisons, I haven't gotten a chance to use them much in-game, except for lacing steaks with id moss to take out some guard dogs. We might be about to use them in a 2E game I'm in, Against the Frost Giants, where the halfling rogue will poison the giants' supplies and then we charge in the next day.

One option is to use the Mister from Drow of the Underdark, which for 150g lets you spray an ingested/inhaled/contact poison in somebody's mouth with a 5ft ranged touch attack. Ingested poisons grant a DC 15 reflex save and injury poisons only work if the target was already wounded, however. Honestly though, there are very few good ingested poisons anyhow - most of the best ones are contact or inhaled.

For simple traps:

Inhaled:
-A trip wire that releases a thin bottle filled with it from 15ft up.
-Putting it in an eggshell that cracks when you open the chest or step on it.
-A "heavy" inhaled poison at the bottom of a pit, mentioned already

Ingested:
-A water fountain in the middle of your fortress, filled with a clear poison. It fooled my PCs into drinking from it :P
-A pouch of it that covers the PCs in flour and ingested poison. Some of the poison will get on their fingers, hands, food supplies.
-Even better, a trap that launches a coconut cream pie at the enemy. Oh, you're so silly! When the enemy stops for the comedic "Mmm..." and licks his finger, it turns out the cream pie was filled with poison!
-A corpse that you drop in a convincing death scene, complete with broken equipment, a crumbled but still edible fruitcake, and a single vial labeled "Healing Potion." You know what's in the vial: an actual potion of cure light wounds. The fruitcake, however, is a wyvern venom pancake (the cake was a lie!)

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-07, 01:20 AM
And each casting has a chance of hitting her with a variant Feeblemind for a week to 5 weeks - she probably only fails the roll on a 1, but if she casts the spell 20 times - lets say she's paranoid and casts it twice a day, that means in 10 days - then she'll fail the check eventually. Then she's out of commission for a LONG time, and since a deity did it directly, there's probably nothing that mortal magic can really do to help her in that time period.

You take 10. It's an ability check.


That said, it's kind of dumb for V not to have tried using the spell when he was doing his massive divination kick.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-07, 02:11 AM
And another thing: Contingency (Resilient Sphere) would have gotten V killed in this instance - he'd get hit by the arrow, croak out the trigger (or maybe it would be triggered when he was hit) - and BAM! Suddenly Elan has no way to touch V and cast Neutralize Poison! 10 rounds later and 3d6 more Str damage = dead elf.

For someone who writes a handbook on ability damage poison, you make a pretty drastic error concerning what happens to elves who reach a Strength score of 0.

Akal Saris
2010-04-07, 02:31 AM
For someone who writes a handbook on ability damage poison, you make a pretty drastic error concerning what happens to elves who reach a Strength score of 0.

That day I went to a job interview, wrote a brief on a 1-hour deadline, worked on a powerpoint presentation for several hours, guided a visiting friend all around DC for about 4 hours, went to my 2 hour night class, and then posted to the thread at 2 or 3 am. It was a long day. :smallsigh:

I also admitted to the error at 4am when I re-checked the thread before bed and somebody else pointed the error out, so you're a little late and missed my apology. Again, mea maxima culpa.

Cursedblessing
2010-04-07, 02:58 AM
And all of that is assuming you don't just take them with you. Telling them to touch you isn't just possible with 0 Str, it's still a free action.

When your str score is 0 you are helpless and cannot move and you cannot take any actions except for purely mental actions. The last time I checked speaking was not a mental action, so even if it is a free action it cannot be done.
Now if you had telepathy(not common) or had cast rary's telepathic bond before hand(I have never even seen a wizard bother to learn it except to complete his pokedex, I mean spell-dex) thats a different story.

Gorbash
2010-04-07, 04:28 AM
And if you can't talk, you can't cast spells with V components (unless they're Silent).

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-07, 05:05 AM
That day I went to a job interview, wrote a brief on a 1-hour deadline, worked on a powerpoint presentation for several hours, guided a visiting friend all around DC for about 4 hours, went to my 2 hour night class, and then posted to the thread at 2 or 3 am. It was a long day. :smallsigh:

I also admitted to the error at 4am when I re-checked the thread before bed and somebody else pointed the error out, so you're a little late and missed my apology. Again, mea maxima culpa.

Oh, no worries. It just seemed like, I don't know... That kinda mistake seems on par with... say, Thomas Edison making a slip about the properties of light bulbs. It's such a fundamental part of the ruleset that it surprised me, considering that guides generally mean that you're trying to imply intimate knowledge.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 06:10 AM
When your str score is 0 you are helpless and cannot move and you cannot take any actions except for purely mental actions. The last time I checked speaking was not a mental action, so even if it is a free action it cannot be done.

The Giant clearly disagrees with you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html) Character with 0 Str, chatting up a storm.

And Strength 0 = helpless, not unconscious. Helpless != can't speak.

Gorbash
2010-04-07, 06:54 AM
The Giant clearly disagrees with you. Character with 0 Str, chatting up a storm.

The Giant doesn't really do things 'by the book', so not really a valid argument, since we're not discussing V's predicament but D&D characters and poison.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 06:56 AM
The Giant doesn't really do things 'by the book', so not really a valid argument, since we're not discussing V's predicament but D&D characters and poison.

"The book" says nothing about Str 0 characters being unable to speak.

Being tied up also makes you helpless, but without a gag you can talk freely. There's nothing in the helpless rules themselves that prevents speech.

Also, you're wrong - the Giant slips between the holes in RAW frequently, but he hasn't ever actually violated them. (Except medium-sized Goblins anyway.)

Gorbash
2010-04-07, 07:01 AM
By RAW, Str 0 means:


Strength 0 means that a creature can’t move at all. It lies helpless on the ground.

Whether it can speak or not depends on the interpretation of 'can't move at all'. My intepretation would be, since it explicitely says AT ALL (and lip movement, although subtle is still movement), that the character cannot talk, as if paralyzed.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-07, 07:03 AM
"The book" says nothing about Str 0 characters being unable to speak.

Being tied up also makes you helpless, but without a gag you can talk freely. There's nothing in the helpless rules themselves that prevents speech.

Also, you're wrong - the Giant slips between the holes in RAW frequently, but he hasn't ever actually violated them. (Except medium-sized Goblins anyway.)

And Anti-magic Field beating a Force Cage was iffy rules lawyering.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 07:12 AM
Whether it can speak or not depends on the interpretation of 'can't move at all'. My intepretation would be, since it explicitely says AT ALL (and lip movement, although subtle is still movement), that the character cannot talk, as if paralyzed.

And that's a fine interpretation, but not the only one possible - again, the Giant disagrees.


And Anti-magic Field beating a Force Cage was iffy rules lawyering.

RAW, it does beat Forcecage as that spell is not listed as an exception. So that wasn't a violation either.

Boci
2010-04-07, 07:30 AM
By RAW, Str 0 means:



Whether it can speak or not depends on the interpretation of 'can't move at all'. My intepretation would be, since it explicitely says AT ALL (and lip movement, although subtle is still movement), that the character cannot talk, as if paralyzed.

But breathing requires movement as well.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 08:10 AM
But breathing requires movement as well.

Away with you and your logic and reasoning!

Tehnar
2010-04-07, 08:12 AM
Paralyzed explicitly allows you to breathe.

And I agree that with perfect hindsight Wizards will have a answer to every problem, how ever that is impossible to achieve. As an example to this consider the thread in Phoenix_Rivers signature.

It just a little amusing to me that no one blinks at a caster using thousands of gold or xp for spell components, but complain of poisons costs (even without major creation abuse).

Gorbash
2010-04-07, 08:19 AM
You do realize that not a lot of spells require Gold/XP cost? And when they do, they're used rarely.

paddyfool
2010-04-07, 08:24 AM
I think the suggested poison is a very fitting one, given the strength damage and the probably-draconic nature of the opponent.

The rest of this thread I have no interest in.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-07, 08:37 AM
You do realize that not a lot of spells require Gold/XP cost? And when they do, they're used rarely.Even then a lot of them can be emulated by illusions. I mean, how many enchantment spells have excessive costs? Mostly evocation and conjuration (okay, and some necromancy, but we don't talk about that).

Boci
2010-04-07, 09:02 AM
Paralyzed explicitly allows you to breathe.

Isn't there a debate as to whether you're paralyzed when you have 0 strength?


And I agree that with perfect hindsight Wizards will have a answer to every problem, how ever that is impossible to achieve. As an example to this consider the thread in Phoenix_Rivers signature.

Yes and melee do not have the answer to every problem, with or without hindsight, accept blowing significant portions of their WBL for a result of caster could get, cheaper and their would be more powerful (higher caster level, better save DC, ect)


It just a little amusing to me that no one blinks at a caster using thousands of gold or xp for spell components, but complain of poisons costs (even without major creation abuse).

XP isn't really a problem since you will regain it so as long as you do not go crazy with those spells you should be fine. As for gp cost, there are not that many spells with cannot be covered by a material components pouch, and those that aren't are usually not recomanded in handbooks, such as forecage in treantmonk20's guide to wizards.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 09:13 AM
Isn't there a debate as to whether you're paralyzed when you have 0 strength?

That's 0 Dex, actually. 0 Str doesn't say anything about being paralyzed, only helpless and unable to move.

It's not unreasonable to extend that to speech, but neither is it unreasonable to alllow speech.