[3.5] magic system

[ryzouken]

In virtually every discussion of 3.5 balance, the issue immediately springs out "Magic is broken". I absolutely, positively agree with this statement. Identifying the problem is only the first step, however, next we need to develop solutions. This one is mine, and is inspired by d20 Modern's FX system. Please, assist me in identifying where issues still exist and where changes can be made.

The basic framework of D&D is mostly unchanged. Spells still have levels, you still only get to prepare or know a certain number of spells per day, the world continues to revolve. What differs is the details.
#1: Delete all spells of 7th level and higher. All of them. *evil cackle*
#2: All primary casters use a variant of the Bard's spell progression for spells per day. Rangers, Pallies, etc are unaffected and do their thing as normal.
clerics do their domain thing still
sorcerors (and other spontaneous casters that end with 6 base spells per day per spell level) gain +2 spells per day per spell level at all levels.
for classes with a restriction on the number of spells known, use the bard's values (sorceror, I'm looking at you.)
#3: Specific spells are adjusted or removed entirely as follows
Antimagic field is now dispellable by any dispel effects (Dispel Magic and its inheritors)
Celerity (if the PhB2 is used) and its line are banned.
Polymorph is treated like in Pathfinder: stat bonii based on the monster's racial stat bonii.

That's pretty much it. This system has the following benefits:
It greatly shallows the power curve of primary casters.
Death, while still a temporary condition at high levels, carries a penalty.
Powerful magic effects commonly feared or abused by players or DMs are removed.

Let me know what you think and whether I need to make any further adjustments. What's there is simple, but fairly inclusive, if I missed anything I'd love to know.

[Eldan]

"Boni", not "bonii".

And, well, it wouldn't solve much, sadly. Just ask people around here: the game can easily be broken with any number of fourth, fifth or sixth level spells. If you really want to make the game mostly balanced, I guess the option of just banning all classes other than tier 3 and 4 is probably your best option, even though it really limits the game and eliminates quite a few archetypes.

Otherwise, your best option is to go over every single spell ever printed and rework them all. People started that on these boards, but never really got far.

[lesser_minion]

I don't think 'quick fixes' really cover everything, and it's still frequently easier to work case by case on the casters that get submitted to you.

In this case, you've failed to address a lot of powerful low-level spells. Colour Spray is going to ruin a lot of low level characters' days, for example.

Personally, I don't think that spells above 6th level add much to the game - sure, they let you feel awesome, but the 6th level spells are already pretty damned powerful.

Aside from that, you've massively cut everyone's spells in order to account for these changes - you might want to consider playing an 'e12' system instead.

[erikun]

As you pointed out, the first step in fixing something is identifying the problem. While stating "Magic is broken" may be accurate, it doesn't tell us exactly what is broken and thus needs fixing. We need to identify what works and what doesn't. Otherwise, we will likely end up with a very different system that still has the same problems.

The way I see it, these are the problems with the current 3.5e magic system.

1.) It is both more effective to cast save-or-suck spells than swing a sword, and such spells can be cast in every encounter throughout the day. Either spells need to be modified to be roughly in line with melee, or need to be reduced so they can't be cast virtually all the time.

2.) Spells can easily replicate other class abilities, at times better than the class can on its own. See: Knock

3.) The formulas for spell damage and spell DC force all spellcasters to be single-classed. It keeps spellcasters from multiclassing with nonspellcasters, and basically forces spellcasters to take only full-progression prestige classes.

4.) Damage is a terrible option compared to... well, anything else you could possibly do.

These are the big issues that need to be addresses. The wizard's versatility of literally being capable of anything is also a problem, although perhaps to a lesser extent. Simply chopping off the higher level spell slots, while getting rid of a lot of redundancy, doesn't solve the inherit problem with spellcasting.

[Tinydwarfman]

"Boni", not "bonii".


If you want to get picky about it, neither of them are actual words.

[ryzouken]

Actually, I've addressed the low level color spray problem with the slowed casting progression ala Bard.

I didn't see too many SoD's at 6th level and less. Circle of Death, Flesh to Stone (technically) and Phantasmal Killer is pretty much all inclusive from core. Also, keep in mind that the Bard's slowed casting progression means casters get these later in the game and the DCs are going to be lower.

I'll keep looking at the rest of the critiques I haven't addressed here, these were just the quick ones I could offer a rebuttal for.


As to the Boni/Bonii debate, meh. It works, does it not? (besides, my handle alone should display my predilection for extraneous vowels. Par for the course. :smallwink:)

[Eldan]

Looking at level 4,5,6:

Cloudkill. Major Creation. Wall of Force. Telekinesis. Divine Power. Planar Ally et al.

And those are just the ones I can see broken applications for. I'm not a power gamer.

[ryzouken]

Cloudkill hardly counts as an SoD. Particularly given the level at which they'd receive it. They'd need to be 13th level to cast Cloudkill under my system, if they're facing anything that can be instakilled by it, they'd have instakilled it with anything else (or the fighter would've). The d2 Con damage is rough (d4 if they fail their save. Note that's a Fort save. Anything with a bad fort is going to likely be a construct or undead, thus immune.) but surpassable.

Major creation appears to need defining text as to what specific materials can be created. I'd also consider adding an xp component to it or something to avoid economy busting (though, economies already get borked with simple skill checks so...).

Wall of Force has a counter: Disintegrate. Further, it can (normally) be teleported past. I disagree that it counts as a borked spell, however, it should probably have a costly material component of about 350 gp of ruby dust to bring it in line with Forcecage. (1 Wall of Force = 1/4 of a forcecube, therefore, 1/4 of the material cost. ne?)

I've yet to get TK to work for me in a broken fashion. If someone can illustrate I can get a better idea of what needs changing or what changes to the magic system did to the spell. (Remember! Save DC's are easier to pass now that 6 is max spell level.)

Divine Power: meh. If the party cleric wants to walk up and go rawrasaurus, let him. Beats getting slapped by Slay Living. It should be noted that if I were extending my patches to feats also, Divine Metamagic would no longer let you bypass the maximum spell level, thus Divine Metamagic: Persist would not be able to make Divine Power 24 hrs. But that's neither here nor there. The spell, as is, isn't that broken.

Planar Binding: should probably have a costly xp or gp component. Probably the former. Or wish giving critters need to have more than 12 HD. It's a toughie.

[Anonymouswizard]

Cloudkill hardly counts as an SoD. Particularly given the level at which they'd receive it. They'd need to be 13th level to cast Cloudkill under my system, if they're facing anything that can be instakilled by it, they'd have instakilled it with anything else (or the fighter would've). The d2 Con damage is rough (d4 if they fail their save. Note that's a Fort save. Anything with a bad fort is going to likely be a construct or undead, thus immune.) but surpassable.

Or a sorcerer, or a wizard, or a bard, or a rogue. 4 with poor fort.

[ryzouken]

Of course, a 9,000 gp item (Necklace of Adaptation) completely and totally protects against the spell regardless. As does any ability granting poison immunity. Additionally, a 200gp single use item (Quaal's Feather Token: fan) will result in the target only needing to make a single save as the Cloudkill will then be dispersed. This assumes, of course, the subject is incapable of merely walking out of the cloud.

I've never seen Cloudkill cast in game to good effect. It is easily countered and underwhelming, even when not delayed four levels further by my slowed casting progression.

Anybody able to chime in on TK abuses and what to do with Planar Binding or Major Creation?

[Anonymouswizard]

For planar binding, possibly limits such as having to know the true name of the being you are summoning? Or a chance for spell failure? Planar ally is fine, as the DM can choose what creature is summoned.

[erikun]

Specific spells? Let's see.

Grease, Sleep, and Color Spray can still one-shot an opponent. Protection from X still grants immunity from the Enchantment school. Ray of Enfeeblement will still put a big dent into any melee opponent, and Enlarge Person is still an impressive buff.

At 2nd level spells, we still have Glitterdust and Web. Scorching Ray actually looks a bit better, given the lack of a saving throw.

3rd level has Explosive Rune bombs. Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud can disable opponents, especially if they can't leave due to Web. I suppose Hold Person is useful, and Ray of Exahustion still knocks a chunk out of STR and DEX.

4th level has Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Resilient Sphere, Shadow Conjuration, Bestow Curse, Enervation, and the ever fun Confusion. As you mentioned, Polymorph has been changed to not be as overpowering. Note that at this point, we're only looking at a -1 to spell DCs compared to normal; when the bard is looking at 4th level spells, everyone else is looking at 5th level. That doesn't seem like a very large hurdle to overcome.

5th level has Cloudkill, which is still dangerous. (Web + Cloudkill, Solid Fog + Cloudkill = 2 CON damage/round, unable to fight back) Feeblemind looks fun but is probably running into immunities at this point. Shadow Evocation, Waves of Fatigue, Baleful Polymorph.

6th level has more stuff, but seeing as this is the higest level of spells available, it doesn't seem too bad. Especially considering the effective -3 save DCs compared to the normal 9th level spells you'd be casting instead. Also, less spell slots. My biggest concern, though, is that this system would seem to encourage the use of metamagic reducers.