PDA

View Full Version : NWoD idea



Gareque
2010-04-06, 05:09 PM
I have a somewhat split gaming group who were brought up on 3.5 D&D.

I have tried running a V:TM game from oWoD, but some of the players disliked the idea of playing in a modern setting. So my immediate thought was V:TDA.

However, upon speaking to some of my players, people want to merge the systems and speaking to long term White Wolf gamers, the oWoD games don't merge well. The power balance is simply far too grand.

That said, my players each want to play different systems, one wants to play a mage, another a few werewolves and some vampires thrown in for good measure.

I have idea's floating about as to why each faction would put their pasts behind them (at least some of them, for the time being), which could prove intriguing, but I'd like to know what you all think a merged system could turn out like?

Also, one thing I have noticed from the WW:TF and M:T Awakening, is that it seems far too imbalanced on behalf of their powers. After all, mages and werewolves have far more difficulty in collecting new mana/essence than vampires have with vitae.

Is this simply how I am reading the rules and perhaps misinterpretting them? Or is it simply imbalanced in the favour of vampires?

If it is, how could you combat this? Simply place plenty of hallows etc for them to gather mana and essence? Or are there better ways without throwing it at the players? (Aside from having to resort to devouring humans/wolves, or killing them in a sacrifice).

Thanks in advance.

Gnaeus
2010-04-06, 05:27 PM
Merging lots of WOD systems is hard for experienced players. Hold off on it if you can until you have played some. See if you can keep it to one or two.

Werewolves and vampires aren't badly balanced, especially in NWOD. The were can usually own the vamp in combat, but the vamp is likely to have more non-combat powers at his disposal.

Mage is very hard to balance with the others in a campaign. It is a little like wizards versus fighters and rogues in 3.5. Vamps and weres advance linearly. Each new power is basically a small boost to a stat or a better version of the previous power. Because of the way mage powers work, each new point in a sphere is a geometric increase. Going from Fate 3 to Fate 4 makes you better at all your fate magic, but also opens doors to combo effects with all your other magic powers. The same XP will help a mage more than a Vamp or a were.

Gareque
2010-04-06, 05:44 PM
So if one were to allow mages, perhaps lowering the XP allowance for mages to help keep a balanced game?

I have RP'd and DM'd for approx a decade now and I feel I can handle it, at least feel the want to try it out. Perhaps it will fail miserably, but as long as everyone is enjoying theirselves, it's hard to see it as a failure I suppose.

comicshorse
2010-04-06, 07:01 PM
Posted by Gareque

Also, one thing I have noticed from the WW:TF and M:T Awakening, is that it seems far too imbalanced on behalf of their powers. After all, mages and werewolves have far more difficulty in collecting new mana/essence than vampires have with vitae.


Yes I'd say its easier for Vampires to feed than for Mages to gather mana BUT Vampires lose blood every night whereas Mages don't have to use Mana. Also vampires have the huge disadvantage of being completely helpless during the day

Which brings me to my second point when we tried a mixed V:TDA game the vampire players ended up being very bored as the Werewolves could work during the day when all they did was sleep

Gnaeus
2010-04-06, 07:27 PM
Which brings me to my second point when we tried a mixed V:TDA game the vampire players ended up being very bored as the Mages could work during the day when all they did was sleep

That one never bothered me as much as when my sneaky vampire would stealth up to scout the enemy and by the time I got there the mages had already checked the area with Space magic and blasted our enemies to ash from where they stood with the rest of the party.

comicshorse
2010-04-06, 07:29 PM
Ours was a Vampire/Werewolf game so we didn't have that problem. Thank god
Mages powers do seem to be in a different league to other supernaturals

erikun
2010-04-06, 08:11 PM
If you are looking at a more fantasy style game, you might want to give Changeling a look. It captures the fantasy feeling quite well, even in a modern setting, and you might be able to convince your Mage player to give a Changeling a try. I haven't played one myself, but I've heard very good things about the new Changeling: The Lost.

Note that C:tL requires the core new World of Darkness rulebook, though.

Gareque
2010-04-07, 03:46 PM
Thanks for the idea's.

Most of the players understand that it's bad manners at the least to leave other players doing nothing for entire sessions, so an agreement would likely be made saying play time would convene during the night, with the mages/werewolves catching up sleep during the day.

As for the mages powers, the mate who wants to play it comes up with a valid point. Whilst they have got an almost unlimited level of power, there is the problem of Paradoxes to cover. If they start hogging the limelight, paradoxes will become more frequent, making it more difficult.

Also, most players will find themselves following set paths in their mind (bar from metagamers), thus his idea would be for a necromancer, the focus obviously being death magic (so Moros).

As for changeling, I am thinking of allowing that as well, but only if I get the book before the game starts (or during in the case of a death).

I currently have nWoD core, V:TR, WW:TF and M:TAw

Gnaeus
2010-04-07, 04:04 PM
As for the mages powers, the mate who wants to play it comes up with a valid point. Whilst they have got an almost unlimited level of power, there is the problem of Paradoxes to cover. If they start hogging the limelight, paradoxes will become more frequent, making it more difficult.

In my experience, Paradox is rarely a problem for a mage who is a little bit careful. Most big supernatural fights don't happen in front of mundanes, creative players can break the world with coincidental magic, and mild paradox effects aren't killers. This will be even more true in the dark ages, where the common people believe in magic.


Also, most players will find themselves following set paths in their mind (bar from metagamers), thus his idea would be for a necromancer, the focus obviously being death magic (so Moros).

Thats good. But remember that it is like wizards or clerics in 3.5. They can blast for a long time, but if they suddenly decide to break the world, there is a good chance that they can.

Gareque
2010-04-07, 04:42 PM
That's a valid point.

There is always the ability of tearing their face off with a werewolf should they decide to try and break the system lol.

Even a mage would struggle in combat against a rabid werewolf in Garau form.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-07, 04:49 PM
Assuming he hasn't invested enough into Space to teleport. Otherwise he'll just warp to safety, then scry on Mr. Garou and Sympathetic Magic him into gooey wolf chunks. If he's feeling suicidal enough to try and grab some fur or something before leaving, it's a given.

Mages: What happens when you take D&D wizards and make them overpowered.

Kesnit
2010-04-07, 04:57 PM
My fiancee tried running a mixed nWoD game about a year ago and it was a disaster. Mages are way more powerful than any others. (Glyphstone put it very well.) Each of the supernaturals play differently and have different purposes, which makes coming up for a reason they would be together very difficult.

If you want to mix supernaturals, I would recommend having your players all play one type and you make the the others NPC's.

Kuma Da
2010-04-07, 05:00 PM
I'm just gonna put forth a suggestion here: mixed supernaturals isn't about balance. Say it with me. Mixed supernaturals isn't about balance.

Yes, these players are going to be coming from a dnd background, which means they're all going to want to play difference races as well as have different party roles. Yes, they're going to think the system is rigorously internally balanced and everything can play well together (I don't know why DnD players tend to think this.) And, yes, their first characters will probably be built more for power than for concept. That's all understandable. But if you're looking to give them a WoD experience, I would recommend not trying to tweak and balance the game. Just let things unfold, and meddle if it looks like someone's not having fun.

Also, from the way things sound, you've got a group that wants a classical fantasy feel in their gaming and is a little uncomfortable stepping outside of it. If you get the chance, try to watch some of the movies listed as inspiration in the source books with them. A lot of those films are great flicks in their own right, and they might convince your players that modern supernatural would be a cool thing to try out. If not, no loss. NWoD as written isn't everyone's cup of tea.

comicshorse
2010-04-07, 06:17 PM
Posted by Gareque

Most of the players understand that it's bad manners at the least to leave other players doing nothing for entire sessions, so an agreement would likely be made saying play time would convene during the night, with the mages/werewolves catching up sleep during the day.


That's not as easy as it sounds. Say the group are in hot pursuit of the bad guy is it really reasonable for the Mage's to just stop and let him get away because the Vampires have to go home.
Even worse often the Vampire's game will stop a lot earlier than dawn because they have to be back in their havens before dawn. If they've travelled four hours away from their havens then they have to start to head back five hours before dawn, The Mages don't have to so is it really realistic they just stop and twiddle their thumbs until the next night has fallen and another four hours have fallen for the vampires to travel back.
Summer it is even worse where the nights may be very short limiting the vampires time severely.
Also travel is very dangerous for vampires in the Dark Ages, sensible vampires do it as little as possible again not a problem for other supernaturals.
I don't mean to be negative but these are all problems we encountered

Gareque
2010-04-08, 12:24 PM
Posted by Gareque


That's not as easy as it sounds. Say the group are in hot pursuit of the bad guy is it really reasonable for the Mage's to just stop and let him get away because the Vampires have to go home.
Even worse often the Vampire's game will stop a lot earlier than dawn because they have to be back in their havens before dawn. If they've travelled four hours away from their havens then they have to start to head back five hours before dawn, The Mages don't have to so is it really realistic they just stop and twiddle their thumbs until the next night has fallen and another four hours have fallen for the vampires to travel back.
Summer it is even worse where the nights may be very short limiting the vampires time severely.
Also travel is very dangerous for vampires in the Dark Ages, sensible vampires do it as little as possible again not a problem for other supernaturals.
I don't mean to be negative but these are all problems we encountered

So far, the only one interested in Vampires plans on Gangrel. Easy to fix the travel issue with Protean.

Also, it's the storytellers job to ensure that 90% of the game isn't one person travelling to and fro certain area's. There are ways around chases during the day, such as underground caverns etc.

Or, placing areas easy to defend and access.

Ideally, if players are under the impression that each character is a necessary individual, they would just leave them there to die. At least, not in any games I've played (bar as evil characters of course).

Then, there's always the option of a vampire being chased. Short of the mage scrying then blasting, it'd be a bit more difficult to trace them.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-08, 12:35 PM
Don't vampires still have to sleep during daylight hours, even if they're underground or inside a building?

Gareque
2010-04-08, 01:26 PM
Hmm, unless I missed a rule, I know they can do it in V:TM. Not sure about Requiem, i just assumed.

Even if they removed the rule, I would reintroduce it.

In Masquerade, you could make a roll to remain awake during the day (via the expendature of 1 blood). In this, I would guess it's Composure+Resolve.

Aron Times
2010-04-08, 01:43 PM
Staying awake during the day is an extended Resolve + Composure roll with a target of five successes. If you fail any roll, you fall asleep. Alternatively, a Dragon with Coil of Banes 2 can spend a Willpower point to automatically succeed on staying awake the whole day.

BollaertN
2010-04-08, 04:16 PM
The way to run a World of Darkness game with Mixed Genres is simple enough.

Keep the mechanics and ditch the backstory.

Then, limit the things you put in.

You don't need 13 Vampire Clans, 13 Werewolf Tribes, and all the other stuff that is in the WoD universe. Make a limited amount available for selection and create your own homespun backstory. This allows you to far more easily run a game where Vampires, Werewolves, and Mages team up.

Since Magic is so powerful in the system, that is probably the one you will have the most trouble with and need to limit.

Keeping it simple is the key to success here. In one such game I played in, Vampires were almost all soulless monsters possessed by demons. Only a very rare few still had a soul and were on Path of Humanity (ie PCs). Think Angel from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Maybe you don't want to deal with all the Gaia spirit crap? Make Werewolves all be Homid-based and say it is actually the disease Lycanthropy.

Do whatever you need to do to make it work for you, its the rules mechanics that are best about WoD anyway, not the boated, soap-opera-esque storyline they built up over the years.

Edit: I recommend using the Requiem Era versions of the rules as well if possible, the mechanics are much cleaner and the back story is not nearly as convoluted. However, for a Mixed Genre game I still say that most of the backstory can be ditched. You don't want to try and pack 3 full games worth of backstory into one chronicle, take bits you like from each.

BollaertN
2010-04-08, 04:21 PM
Dealing with Vampires and Day is easy enough if you want to. Anything from crazy supernatural eclipses to ancient forests so thick that sunlight barely penetrates to subterranean passages. I mean, its a game, and its your story.

comicshorse
2010-04-08, 04:35 PM
As has been pointed out even if they can't see the sun it's still damn hard for vampires to stay awake during the day and that's if they plan to be awake for a few minutes

Solarn
2010-04-08, 05:01 PM
If you want to run a mixed WoD campaign, you should definitely go with nWoD. It's designed to facilitate crossovers and the powers of the different supernaturals are much more balanced. Also, you don't have to buy a ton of (sometimes contradicting) sourcebooks if you want to play a vampire.

Also, Prometheans Prometheans Prometheans Prometheans so much awesome.

Seriously, Mage and Changeling are the only oWoD games I miss, and the new Changeling is actually pretty good as well.

As for imbalances: other supernaturals might have fewer sources of power, but they use much less than vampires and can regain it much less conspicuously (sucking on a guy's neck = extremely conspicuous).

Gareque
2010-04-10, 10:15 AM
Nice points.

I will be rewriting the backstory anyhow, as it's going to be set in the dark ages, I need to come up with a history that will likely be completely different.

I am thinking of having it that humans have begun to notice all of the different supernaturals, that they are beginning to suspect and rise against it.

This is obviously a bigger threat than each other, so it would require at the very least, some kind of fickle alliance.

As for the mage, what I think I am going to do, is simply leave it as is for the first few sessions and see how it goes. I mean, the system is designed for them to work together, so I am wondering if game mechanics will balance it out.

If not, I can always update things later. Plus, there's nothing to say that ALL supernaturals agree with alliances, so it will essentially be a possible supernatural and human free for all with some attempting to sabbotage the alliances, others avoiding it entirely and humans stuck in the middle.

Although the idea kind of reminds me of Aliens Vs Predator lol...

comicshorse
2010-04-10, 12:22 PM
I am thinking of having it that humans have begun to notice all of the different supernaturals, that they are beginning to suspect and rise against it.


The Inquisition cometh !

Aron Times
2010-04-10, 12:34 PM
Nobody expects the Hunter Inquisition! :smallbiggrin:

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-10, 12:42 PM
With regards to the question of mana and vitea, Mages have it far more easy. A vampire has to risk exposure to feed. A Mage can just scour his pattern.

I'm currently playing an adept of space (4 dots) who's job is to break, enter, and steal for the Mysterium. Coupled with the fact he's a total adrenaline junky, I end up burning a lot of mana on various spells - notably teleport, what with 1 mana cost basic + paradox mitigation.

Pattern scouring is an oft missed rule, that lets you magically tear your body in exchange for mana. Mechanically, it means you lose one or more dot from a physical stat for a day, or take one resistant bashing damage, in exchange for mana on a 1:3 ratio (e.g 2 dots of strength = 6 mana)

Generally this, and occasional access to a hallow, covers all of my mana expenditure.

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-10, 02:40 PM
Nice points.

I will be rewriting the backstory anyhow, as it's going to be set in the dark ages, I need to come up with a history that will likely be completely different.

I am thinking of having it that humans have begun to notice all of the different supernaturals, that they are beginning to suspect and rise against it.

This is obviously a bigger threat than each other, so it would require at the very least, some kind of fickle alliance.

As for the mage, what I think I am going to do, is simply leave it as is for the first few sessions and see how it goes. I mean, the system is designed for them to work together, so I am wondering if game mechanics will balance it out.

If not, I can always update things later. Plus, there's nothing to say that ALL supernaturals agree with alliances, so it will essentially be a possible supernatural and human free for all with some attempting to sabbotage the alliances, others avoiding it entirely and humans stuck in the middle.

Although the idea kind of reminds me of Aliens Vs Predator lol...
If you intend to write the bulk of the fluff and rejigger things for inter-splat balance, there comes a point where you need to ask yourself "Why am I even bothering?" At a certain point, its not worth it to try to make it more like D&D; at that point, just play D&D.

If you do intend to keep doing this, though, you'll need a very good reason for why medieval European humans are, collectively, becoming aware of supernatural power groups. Communication between the various towns, villages, keeps and other settlements was slow and far from reliable back then, so it's not like groups of people in different places could put empirical observations together. People then weren't even terribly concerned with empirical observation. Some scholar somewhere, who lives and works with mages, might become aware of the existence of a greater picture, if not the picture itself, but a widespread "awakening" is far-fetched in an even slightly realistic enviroment.

And keep in mind every supernatural group has ways to make people forget about them. Often many ways. A widespread unveiling of the supernatural could only come about if there was massive, prolonged breakdown of order in the supernatural communities. The Seers of the Throne would have to spontaneously disappear; "keep the Sleepers down" is the whole of their job description, after all. And the Guardians of the Veil would have to have completely dropped the ball to let many dangerous leaks get out.

As for splat balance, while different supernaturals are of comparable power level most of the time, and have ways to resist each others nastier powers, they're not really designed to be balanced or to work with each other, they're just more conducive to crossovers than the Old WoD's were. High-power vampires are weak compared to the others because of the flaws the develop, and mages get a sharply increasing power curve as their Gnosis goes up and they master more rotes.

Fundamentally, I think you should concern yourself less with changing the game to fit the expectations of your players, and more with changing their expectations to fit the game. Get them out of their comfort zone a little. Go with the modern setting, play up the interesting and advantageous parts of it. Believe me, once you've played in a setting with cell phones and the Internet, you'll wish you had them when in other games. If it's really a struggle, you could resort to Changling: the Dreaming (NOT Changling: the Lost. Don't even think about touching that game with a group of people who've never played anything but D&D and have to be cajoled into trying a modern setting) which can have D&D-esque stuff going on if you play it that way.

Simply, don't snap the game in half and give yourself hours and hours of extra work just to give your players a slightly new experience. Get the to play the game on at least some of its own merits.

Solarn
2010-04-10, 02:53 PM
I would also like to add (although this has no bearing on the situation at hand, as your players would likely rebel against you if you tried), but the WoD has a system where the Storyteller is not only allowed, but encouraged to punish people who try to unbalance the game even if they follow the rules to the letter, so the balance issues in a crossover become less pronounced with a good Storyteller and an experienced group.

randomhero00
2010-04-10, 03:41 PM
I think it'd be difficult but totally doable to mix the genres. When I first started playing, I even thought they were supposed to be mixed. It just requires a few things and you have to be a good bunch of roleplayers (more than experience, actually have some skill at storytelling.)

One of the caveats is that the problem facing the group can never be standard while the situation is also standard. Or the mentioned balance problems will come into play. So for instance, if the problem is standard (hacknslash) then the situation much be unusual. Such as facing beings that only come out during the night. Or a situation that requires social engineering (vampires) brute strength (weres) and reality bending (mage.) Difficult but doable. Not all of these stages have to occur at once. Be aware of which race most recently had the spot light and make the next problem for someone else. This mostly require storyteller skill.

The second main caveat is breaking the game. This mostly requires player skill to avoid. They need to focus more on concept than power (especially the mage) and they all need to agree upon a happy level of power. If you look at a good fictional fantasy story the characters never do the best thing in every situation. They have weaknesses, quirks, etc. Your players need to be flexible and skillful enough to know when to apply said stuff.

For instance, say you are chasing the bad guys and dawn is approaching. The storyteller needs to be skillful enough to create good villains that the party can't face while fractured. The players need to be skillful enough to recognize it metagame wise, and then employ an in character weakness/quirk. Like the mage might be a less combative type that won't go into combat on his own (or refuses to kill with his powers). Or he is more concerned about protecting his friends than he is on finishing a mission/quest. etc.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Both players and storytellers need to be aware of the situation and have contingencies to keep it fun and balanced.

The most important thing is that you mention this to all your players before hand so you can all be in the proper mindset.

Let us know how it goes.

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-10, 06:01 PM
I think it'd be difficult but totally doable to mix the genres. When I first started playing, I even thought they were supposed to be mixed. It just requires a few things and you have to be a good bunch of roleplayers (more than experience, actually have some skill at storytelling.)

This is very true. You and your players need to be aware that different supernaturals aren't like different classes or races in D&D. It's not like werewolves are fighters and vampires are rogues and mages are wizards and they all have to work together to succeed. They each have their own fighting, sneaking and magic specialists, as well as people that can cover pretty much any other archetype. They work within their own societies for a reason. You have to be clear on this, and your players have to be very, very clear on it.



For instance, say you are chasing the bad guys and dawn is approaching. The storyteller needs to be skillful enough to create good villains that the party can't face while fractured. The players need to be skillful enough to recognize it metagame wise, and then employ an in character weakness/quirk. Like the mage might be a less combative type that won't go into combat on his own (or refuses to kill with his powers). Or he is more concerned about protecting his friends than he is on finishing a mission/quest. etc.

Be fairly strict about rolls for moral degradation, especially the mage's Wisdom. Remember, intentionally hurting someone with magic is a Wisdom 7 sin. Killing someone intentionally with magic is a Wisdom 4 sin at the highest without massive extenuating circumstances. And don't forget, while Humanity and Wisdom are pretty similar, Harmony is a completely different beast. Make sure the werewolves act like werewolves, and not like humans with magic transforming powers. If they do act like that, ding their Harmony. They'll start shaping up once already unfriendly spirits start getting on their case and turning hostile.


The most important thing is that you mention this to all your players before hand so you can all be in the proper mindset.

This, a thousand times. This ain't D&D. Make sure they know it.

Gareque
2010-04-11, 04:13 PM
Pattern scouring is an oft missed rule, that lets you magically tear your body in exchange for mana. Mechanically, it means you lose one or more dot from a physical stat for a day, or take one resistant bashing damage, in exchange for mana on a 1:3 ratio (e.g 2 dots of strength = 6 mana)

Generally this, and occasional access to a hallow, covers all of my mana expenditure.

Well actually, you can't burn 2 dots of str. You can only pattern scour 1 stat a day, though you can burn as much health as you wish. Although this is a bad idea done in excess as it is easier to kill you, as it is resistant damage.

Gareque
2010-04-11, 04:17 PM
I think you should concern yourself less with changing the game to fit the expectations of your players, and more with changing their expectations to fit the game.

To be honest, my intention is not to make the game anything close to D&D, my intention is simply to run a game with a feasible reason as to why the different factions may work together.

As the players prefer a sword/sorcery setting, I am planning on a dark ages setting where not only was sorcery already believed, but it was also feared far more.

As for changing their expectations? A storyteller who forces their players to do something they do not wish, will not remain storyteller for very long.

dragoonsgone
2010-04-11, 04:35 PM
You can always use the old tried and true mercenary group to get the different people to work together. All hired to do a job by some outside agency.

comicshorse
2010-04-11, 09:05 PM
Posted by Gareque

To be honest, my intention is not to make the game anything close to D&D, my intention is simply to run a game with a feasible reason as to why the different factions may work together.


The quickest way to get different factions to work together is an enemy gunning for all of them.
This could be the Inquisition or some other faction of supernatural's seeking to wipe out any challenges to their plans for the world ( demons are always good).
Similairly real historical events can be woven into your chronicle with a supernatural overlay. In a Dark Age's campaign the P.C.s were the Kindred of Alexandria and at one point were working with the local werewolves to deal with the Mongol invaders ( who we believed were under the thrall of a really old and powerfull Nosferatu)

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-11, 09:29 PM
To be honest, my intention is not to make the game anything close to D&D, my intention is simply to run a game with a feasible reason as to why the different factions may work together.

As the players prefer a sword/sorcery setting, I am planning on a dark ages setting where not only was sorcery already believed, but it was also feared far more.

As for changing their expectations? A storyteller who forces their players to do something they do not wish, will not remain storyteller for very long.

The thing is, in the middle ages, the various supernatural types have even less incentive to work together than in modern times. The amount of territory to go around means the groups aren't rubbing up against each other nearly as much, and know less about each other. The difficulty of communication makes coordination next to impossible. The antagonist factions (Belial's Brood, The Pure, The Seers of the Throne) are much stronger compared to the benign ones. Two of the three groups that are most likely to support intra-supernatural relations (The Cathian [sp?] Movement and the Free Council) don't even exist yet. There's little reason for them to work together at all.

What exactly do you mean by sword and sorcery? Do you mean the setting, or the actual play style? Because if it's mostly the setting they like, well, your idea may not be too bad, but you really have your work cut out for you. If it's the hack'n'slash, kill-everything-that-moves, PC-centered morality style they like, changing the setting is just setting both you and them up for serious disappointment and possibly resentment when their hack'n'slash expectations, fed by the setting, are subverted. Unless that's what you want, because while it's kind of mean, it might well make for an interesting game...

When I say change their expectations, I mean you need to make it clear to them that the WoD is very different from D&D. That they need to expect things to work differently in themes and execution, as well as mechanics. Making the setting more like D&D lulls them into a false sense of familiarity which will come back to haunt all of you.

grautry
2010-04-11, 09:31 PM
Well actually, you can't burn 2 dots of str. You can only pattern scour 1 stat a day, though you can burn as much health as you wish. Although this is a bad idea done in excess as it is easier to kill you, as it is resistant damage.

Eh, as far as I remember, there was a limit based on both scouring *and* healing based on Gnosis(healing without Life, that is). I think it went up to 4/day with 9-10 Gnosis.

Anyway, *I* certainly would worry about balance if I wanted to run a crossover game.

In NWoD anyway - mages can be seriously unbalancing, without even trying that hard. A mage with moderately good armour, moderately good Arcana shield and a moderately good defence has at least ~8-10 Defence total(less against firearms - but you can use bulletproof vests to reduce damage to bashing) which basically means that unless you're a professional soldier or a supernatural being(and pretty combat focused), it's just about impossible to hit them.

And that's the least of tricks a mage can pull off.

An fresh mage can raise massive amounts of zombies or other minions(especially if he has a rote), gain just impossible and legendarily story-breaking amounts of information(seriously, a mage can just know *anything* if he tries), hold their own in combat(or rip apart everything and everyone, if they're doing it right), do very well in social interactions(that's actually one of the only limitations that mages have - that Mind effects are pretty tough to make long lasting) and really, just pull such crazy crap all the time that you'll be screaming "WHAT?".

That's just apprentices(that's what 3-dot apprentices were called, weren't they? Long time since I played). Adepts are worse and master mages are sort of like lvl 21 DnD Wizards in that they have to be actively trying not to break the game in half and laugh at its ashes.

A lot of this happens because the mage extended casting rule have a geometric nature(for example, one additional success = *2 number of targets).

So, if you've got smart players then I propose you implement one of those house rules for mages:
1. The number of rolls a mage uses in an extended casting is limited by his Gnosis(Gnosis 3 = 3 rolls tops).
2. The number of targets/area/etc. in extended casting rises linearly rather than geometrically(+1 success = +1 target, for example).

Because, if you plan on running a crossover game then mages are simply the most powerful choice for the players.

Additionally, I often implemented that each Sleeper witness = +1 Paradox dice(currently it's flat +2 dice, regardless of the number of Sleeper witnesses) to curb the power of mages a bit, but that might not prove necessary for you.

Oh, and just so you're aware(someone mentioned it, I think) - Mana is pitifully easy to gain. Between auto-regenerating Artifacts, pattern scouring, Hallows that give you both mana and automatic -1 Mana cost on all spells cast all the time, Prime, Familiars and Oblations/Legacies(plus dozen other methods I've forgotten) you can be swimming in Mana if you just put a little bit of effort into it.

Anyway, that's my take on it. If other players don't mind being outshined(especially vampires, who've got to deal with some really sucky weaksauce weaknesses) then you'll be fine either way.

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-11, 09:42 PM
Additionally, I often implemented that each Sleeper witness = +1 Paradox dice(currently it's flat +2 dice, regardless of the number of Sleeper witnesses) to curb the power of mages a bit, but that might not prove necessary for you.


That seems excessive, even when dealing with min-maxers. I mean, it basically means you can't do Vulgar magic at all if there are more than about three Sleepers around. And Vulgar feats in public aren't really the problem with high exp. mages, after all. It's the sitting in the Sanctum, casting for a week magic that introduces problems.

Also, while Gnosis 3 mages could do all kinds of crazy things, they realistically only have enough Exp. to grow one or two areas. And if they do that, they're not raising their Gnosis or learning Rotes... I mean, yeah, high power mages are markedly more powerful then high power other supernaturals, but against each other, they're reasonable enough.

grautry
2010-04-11, 10:00 PM
That seems excessive, even when dealing with min-maxers. I mean, it basically means you can't do Vulgar magic at all if there are more than about three Sleepers around. And Vulgar feats in public aren't really the problem with high exp. mages, after all. It's the sitting in the Sanctum, casting for a week magic that introduces problems.

Well, my players and I were discussing the exact effects of Disbelief since they're quite murky in that regard(to be exact: does one Sleeper get one Disbelief roll once per ten minutes OR does one Sleeper get one Disbelief roll once per spell once per ten minutes).

Since the setting necessitated that there be *some* reason for mages to fear combat in public(the lethal nature of combat in NWoD practically guarantees that any fight will end in 2-4 rounds, unless you're getting really clever; which harshly limits the amount of punishment you'll get from Paradox) I took the first interpretation(it was originally the second) and added the additional paradox dice.

It worked out quite well, giving mages a sort of a fatal weakness. Just like vampires can't go out in the day, mages suck when confronted with mortals(sort of, Mind mages and some others just laugh and kill everything with their covert killer spells).


Also, while Gnosis 3 mages could do all kinds of crazy things, they realistically only have enough Exp. to grow one or two areas. And if they do that, they're not raising their Gnosis or learning Rotes... I mean, yeah, high power mages are markedly more powerful then high power other supernaturals, but against each other, they're reasonable enough.

Well, it's not such a complex task. If you've got Gnosis 3/Arcanum 3 then you've got a dice pool of at least 8 for extended casting(High Speech and all, might be more if I'm forgetting something else). That's 48-64 dice in the pool(depending on your interpretation of the limits of extended rolls, I don't think that rule was ever clarified either) which translates to anywhere between 14 and 32(if you happen to score some way to get Fate 4 rote quality, like say, from an ally) successes, which can do a LOT.

Going to use Death Arcanum as an example here - widely considered to be one of the more underwhelming Arcana(though I don't really agree). The least it can do is say, raise 32 zombies(5 suxx) for 48 hours(4 IIRC) with the rest(5) left over for potency/as a paradox/disbelief cushion/something... - pretty damn strong, wouldn't you say?

If you score 32 successes(shouldn't be too hard, find a Fate Adept who's either your ally or wants a favour from you in the future) then you can use 14 of those successes to raise 1024 zombies(you'd probably use the earlier 32 to dig up the corpses) for 48 hours with a LOT of successes left as a paradox cushion/potency stuff. Or just say 'F*** it, I'm going for the broke' and spend 20 successes to raise a million zombies(how you'd get the corpses - no idea, but the potential is there).

We're talking starting character here. That's not even a rote. It takes 6-8 hours, depending on how much you want to break the system.

And that's still forgetting the fact that even if you don't abuse the system like this, mages are still the most flexible(plenty of raw power as well) splat. They ALL have immensely good ways of gathering information and they all have dozens of tricks up their sleeves(whereas a beginning Vampire or a Werewolf/Changeling/etc. might have 3 or 4) and can deal with just about any challenge.

Even when they have to completely improvise, a competently build mage will deal with a problem just as well - or better - as any werewolf/vampire/changeling(barring some special circumstances like being forced to continuously use vulgar magic, which will backfire spectacularly, but that doesn't really happen all that often).

Mind you, I'm not saying M:tA is a bad system(although, yeah, mechanically it kinda is broken in a lot of places) - I love it. But, you need to take care with it - especially if you're planning on running a crossover.