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View Full Version : Is Radiant Servant of Pelor broken?



KingoftheTrees
2010-04-06, 05:13 PM
I was on an old message board the other night and saw a few posts about how people thought it was... But I don't really see how exactly it is. Does anyone else have any thoughts or feelings on the subject?

Ashram
2010-04-06, 05:32 PM
Full spellcasting, d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, turns stack with those from normal cleric, proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, all light spells range doubled and the spell level increased by one for purposes of dispelling darkness, and (Eventually) free empowered and maximized cures on your Healing domain spell slots.

Keld Denar
2010-04-06, 05:32 PM
The basic idea is that it gets everything a cleric does, and then MORE. Much more, in some cases. The only thing it loses is the HD size goes from d8 to d6. Oh, for some reason, it also gets proficiency with ALL martial weapons.

Personally, I think its only a 5 level long class, as the benefits from 6th and up are minor or detrimental (till 10th). Compare to say...Sacred Exorcist as a full casting, full turning PrC and RSoP6-10 fall short.

krossbow
2010-04-06, 05:34 PM
Basically look at it this way:


A cleric is broken with 0 class features. Anything that gives it more for 0 cost will always be OP.

Boci
2010-04-06, 05:40 PM
So lets see:

Disadvantages: Must take one suboptimal domain, loses 1hp per level

Gain: martial weapons proficiency, in combat healing does not suck so much, one free suboptimal domain, can use DMM and still turn undead, boost to light spells, immune to all diseases even magical ones, +2 to will saves for self and allies, and special area attack against undead, although it seems pretty weak and does not appear to heal allies.

So yeah, definatly a net gain.

AbyssKnight
2010-04-06, 05:41 PM
The thing is that a Cleric (already one of THE strongest classes in 3.5) loses nothing taking it. And the prereqs cost almost nothing as well.

Neutral Good- a very common alignment for heroic PCs
Will +5- Clerics have strong Will saves, so Cleric 6 qualifies
Heal and Knowledge (Religion) are both class skills and commonly taken
Extra Turning- only 1 feat prereq and it only helps with DMM cheese
1st level divine spells are a given for Cleric and Sun is a decent domain
(Healing will probably be the 2nd)
Patron- Pelor is no issue for a heroic PC Cleric

Full Casting- no loss of casting
Turn Undead- no loss of Turning
these are the only two class features Clerics have, so a Cleric literally loses nothing

In addition, gets all martial weapon profs, extra Greater Turning, Radiance, Divine Health, aura of warding, EXTRA DOMAIN, empowered/maximized/both healing, positive energy burst.

The only down side is d6 HD, but with Cleric buffs can easily be overcome.

Shas aia Toriia
2010-04-06, 05:45 PM
There is no downside to the class. 1 HP a level is really not going to matter that much, especially since the healing buff you get makes up for it.

warmachine
2010-04-06, 05:49 PM
A continuation of the cleric class but more abilities at the small price of smaller hit dice and loss of a few class skills. Even the prerequisite of Extra Turning isn't onerous when it can power the turning based feats in the same book.

To add insult to injury, the class is nothing like the accompanying picture. If the class made armour unwearable and granted no weapon proficiencies, making you like the picture, it'd be a shift from warrior priest to healer/undead blaster and be the kind of specialisation that a prestige class should be.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-06, 05:49 PM
Regardless of broken-ness its just dumb.

"I follow the Lord of the Sun and Healing. Now pass me my greatsword so I can go and hack some **** to pieces."

krossbow
2010-04-06, 05:50 PM
Regardless of broken-ness its just dumb.

"I follow the Lord of the Sun and Healing. Now pass me my greatsword so I can go and hack some **** to pieces."


before you can heal, you must first create an injury to fix.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-06, 05:52 PM
A continuation of the cleric class but more abilities at the small price of smaller hit dice and loss of a few class skills. Even the prerequisite of Extra Turning isn't onerous when it can power the turning based feats in the same book.

To add insult to injury, the class is nothing like the accompanying picture. If the class made armour unwearable and granted no weapon proficiencies, making you like the picture, it'd be a shift from warrior priest to healer/undead blaster and be the kind of specialisation that a prestige class should be.

And of course not only do you ninja me, but you say it much better.

GARR I hate ninjas sometimes :smallmad: :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-04-06, 06:31 PM
Regardless of broken-ness its just dumb.

"I follow the Lord of the Sun and Healing. Now pass me my greatsword so I can go and hack some **** to pieces."

Makes sense. It's like an effective paladin, actually.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-06, 06:34 PM
Woah. I missed the martial weapon prof when I let my Cleric PC take this class. Also, I some how thought that it was a 1/2 BaB class.

Although he plays it as a glorified healbot so it didn't end up broken after all. Also, my other players tend to get mad when he does things other than heal them every round. But that's a gripe for another thread.:smallamused:

warmachine
2010-04-06, 06:42 PM
Woah. I missed the martial weapon prof when I let my Cleric PC take this class. Also, I some how thought that it was a 1/2 BaB class.
That's because you thought the picture was based on the class, showing a non-martial character. Now pick up a greatsword, fix your attack bonuses, go CoDzilla and show the fighter how it's done.

Optimator
2010-04-06, 06:48 PM
Clerics have always been warrior types. A Cloistered Cleric RSoP may be more fitting with the picture.

Kylarra
2010-04-06, 06:54 PM
Note that it's only broken overpowered in the sense that "pretty much strictly greater than the base class" is a measure of broken power. If you don't use the adaptation, Pelor doesn't really have the greatest of domains to choose from.

And RSoP isn't really giving you any gamebreaking powers like say incantrix does. I mean yes it is cleric++, but the majority of the bonuses are bonuses to healing, widely considered a waste of time in combat, and turning undead, widely used to power other feats instead of their original purpose.

I'm not denying that it is an awesome class, and that any NG cleric of Pelor shouldn't pretty much auto take it in campaigns where you expect there to be undead. :smalltongue:

edited replacing broken with overpoweredness and such.

Boci
2010-04-06, 06:58 PM
So to fix:

Hit die becomes 1d4
BAB becomes 1/2
Loses martial weapon proficiency and extra domain and all class features if they wear armour.

Kylarra
2010-04-06, 07:01 PM
So to fix:

Hit die becomes 1d4
BAB becomes 1/2
Loses martial weapon proficiency and extra domain and all class features if they wear armour.Well really to fix, my question is, "why bother?". Not to harp on this, but clerics are the lowest of tier 1 classes, and RSoP provides bonuses to situational and suboptimal tactics, except for the MWP of course, so what's the big problem?

IF you worship Pelor and IF you're NG and IF you expect there to be a lot of undead, then yes RSoP will seem quite a bit stronger than your standard cleric, but otherwise? Hardly a blip on the cheesedar at all.

Keld Denar
2010-04-06, 07:02 PM
Really, the best abilities are the extra uses of Greater Turning, the Radiance ability (combine with Radiant Assault or Sunburst), and the bonus domain. Bonus domains are ALWAYS good. Purification is probably the better choice unless you are up to your holy symbol in undead, due to the blanket +1 CL for all abjuration spells. Thats a qualify bonus right there. The Glory one is better if you ARE buried in undead because with a little work, its not hard to keep your effective turning level high enough to dust almost anything that shambles.

The biggest thing is that it doesn't trade anything for those abilities. Then again, neither does Sacred Exorcist, so....yea.

Boci
2010-04-06, 07:07 PM
Well really to fix, my question is, "why bother?". Not to harp on this, but clerics are the lowest of tier 1 classes, and RSoP provides bonuses to situational and suboptimal tactics, except for the MWP of course, so what's the big problem?

IF you worship Pelor and IF you're NG and IF you expect there to be a lot of undead, then yes RSoP will seem quite a bit stronger than your standard cleric, but otherwise? Hardly a blip on the cheesedar at all.

To make being a NG cleric of pelor who doesn't take RSoP an equally viable choice?

KingoftheTrees
2010-04-06, 07:07 PM
I was merely wondering, as I am currently playing a RSoP (Cleric 6/RSoP 6) and was wondering what the big deal about the class is. Personally, my only complaints are that my campaign (in fact it's the Savage Tide Adventure Path) WON'T be having that much more undead, plus I find myself not even really using martial weapons so that's not that big of a deal. I do like that it's kinda like a cleric ++. In fact, my character is even more specced out to be a Healbot... My DM let me take the Spontaneous Domain Casting (Healing) ACF from PHB2, so almost every spell I'll be casting to heal once I reach 16th (unless it's non-domain) will be maximized and empowered. No one in my group seems to think this is all too terrible. Heck, even my DM played as this class before (when he took Vow of Poverty) and said it's great. For healing and undead though. It pretty much does just those two things REALLY well, and one of them I won't get the chance to face. :( Maybe if we do Age of Worms though...

Mongoose87
2010-04-06, 07:09 PM
To make being a NG cleric of pelor who doesn't take RSoP an equally viable choice?

Anything with full Cleric casting is a viable choice.

Boci
2010-04-06, 07:11 PM
I was merely wondering, as I am currently playing a RSoP (Cleric 6/RSoP 6) and was wondering what the big deal about the class is. Personally, my only complaints are that my campaign (in fact it's the Savage Tide Adventure Path) WON'T be having that much more undead, plus I find myself not even really using martial weapons so that's not that big of a deal. I do like that it's kinda like a cleric ++. In fact, my character is even more specced out to be a Healbot... My DM let me take the Spontaneous Domain Casting (Healing) ACF from PHB2, so almost every spell I'll be casting to heal once I reach 16th (unless it's non-domain) will be maximized and empowered. No one in my group seems to think this is all too terrible. Heck, even my DM played as this class before (when he took Vow of Poverty) and said it's great. For healing and undead though. It pretty much does just those two things REALLY well, and one of them I won't get the chance to face. :( Maybe if we do Age of Worms though...

That is because you are playing your character as a healbot. If you were to play your character as a standard buff and slash cleric who happens to be able to heal better and has a couple of useful if not that powerful class features then you might see the problem with this PrC that others have.


Anything with full Cleric casting is a viable choice.

I said equally viable choice.

comicshorse
2010-04-06, 07:13 PM
Posted by Boci

Hit die becomes 1d4
BAB becomes 1/2
Loses martial weapon proficiency and extra domain and all class features if they wear armour.

I'd keep the HD at D6 but the rest looks good.My two cents

goken04
2010-04-06, 07:29 PM
Posted by Boci


I'd keep the HD at D6 but the rest looks good.My two cents

Let 'em keep the domain and the d6. Losing armor is enough of a kick in the teeth to balance out the class, imo.

erikun
2010-04-06, 08:24 PM
Radiant Servant isn't broken, but is is overpowered. That is, it gives up very little, and most of the things it gives up (domain, feat) it gets right back plus more. There is little reason not to take the prestige class, beyond having a better prestige class available.

Kylarra
2010-04-06, 08:27 PM
I don't think making a narrow band of cleric equally viable compared to a PrC specializing in those tactics is truly necessary, but if you really had to nerf it, kill the MWP and knock BAB down to 1/2, or up the requirements to get in. Saying "no you have to be a gimpy white mage if you want to be good at healing" is just stupid, imo.

JaronK
2010-04-06, 09:02 PM
Broken means there's actually something game breaking about the class. There's not. All you get is the ability to use in combat cures a little better... and those suck. So who cares? Lesser Vigor does out of combat healing better. With that said, sure, the class does in fact make you stronger than a Cleric, and Clerics are insanely strong. But the class doesn't really DO all that much.

JaronK

Kylarra
2010-04-06, 09:20 PM
Broken means there's actually something game breaking about the class. There's not. That's actually a good point, I'll amend my earlier statement of brokenness to the more apt description of "overpowered".

Philistine
2010-04-06, 10:10 PM
To make being a NG cleric of pelor who doesn't take RSoP an equally viable choice?

And again the question is, "Why bother?" There are enough reasons not to play a NG Cleric of Pelor in the first place - wanting to play an alignment other than NG, wanting your character to focus on any deity (or cause or principle) other than Pelor, or wanting to choose any domain not on Pelor's list - many of which are just better than those available to a NG Cleric of Pelor, and some of which outstrip even the full-blown RSoP (outside of the very niche applications of "in-combat healing with Cure spells" and "Turning Undead"). So if you're really concerned about making an NG Cleric of Pelor an "equally viable choice," RSoP shouldn't be your biggest worry.

ZeroNumerous
2010-04-06, 10:14 PM
I don't think making a narrow band of cleric equally viable compared to a PrC specializing in those tactics is truly necessary, but if you really had to nerf it, kill the MWP and knock BAB down to 1/2, or up the requirements to get in. Saying "no you have to be a gimpy white mage if you want to be good at healing" is just stupid, imo.

I don't really have anything to say one way or another about RSoP being broken, but I would like to point out that BAB reduction and MWP loss doesn't weaken the class as a single spell(Divine Power) negates the BAB loss. Meanwhile MWP loss is... Really not a loss at all.

Kylarra
2010-04-06, 10:18 PM
I don't really have anything to say one way or another about RSoP being broken, but I would like to point out that BAB reduction and MWP loss doesn't weaken the class as a single spell(Divine Power) negates the BAB loss. Meanwhile MWP loss is... Really not a loss at all.Oh I know that. :smallwink: But the proposed changes are akin to kicking you while you're down because you want to be good at suboptimal archetypes. Really the only thing that RSoP gets that most other "good" cleric PrCs don't is still advancing turning, Oooh aaaahhh.

Coidzor
2010-04-07, 12:25 AM
Radiant Servant isn't broken, but is is overpowered. That is, it gives up very little, and most of the things it gives up (domain, feat) it gets right back plus more. There is little reason not to take the prestige class, beyond having a better prestige class available.

Well, yes, it's Class Features Versus No Class Features.

Basically you want to punish people for wanting actual class features.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-07, 12:46 AM
Well, yes, it's Class Features Versus No Class Features.

Basically you want to punish people for wanting actual class features.

Most prestige classes trade base class features for prestige class features. Pretty simple concept, you get something in exchange for something else.

Now, with a class whose only class feature is full casting, full casting is the only thing they have to trade away. It's not fighter's fault that casting is the be all end all of D&D. If poor wimpy tier 5 fighter has to give up all his bonus feats to prestige, it's only fair that almighty Cleric-zilla should has to give up something.

When your only class feature is better than most characters entire class, you don't get to whine about wanting more features for free.

Dr.Epic
2010-04-07, 12:50 AM
I think it's highly powered.

krossbow
2010-04-07, 12:55 AM
Well, yes, it's Class Features Versus No Class Features.

Basically you want to punish people for wanting actual class features.

If that were true, then the cleric wouldn't mind giving up some of his "featureless" casting levels or the like.

The fact is, the cleric, by virtue of full casting, is op as is. To give him more for no price is just stupid.



If this prestige class is focused on healing and undead fighting, then the obvious penalty would be to limit his melee abilities, such as martial weapons or armor.

Kylarra
2010-04-07, 01:20 AM
The problem is that RSoP is probably one of the least egregious offenders of the fullcasting PrC group, to nerf it do to some perceived fluff issues (armor lol) and ignoring opportunity costs (worshipping pelor or similar sun god) is rather silly.

Is it pretty much strictly greater than a normal NG cleric of Pelor? Sure, assuming blasting undead and healing is your schtick.

Is this strictly greater than your average cleric? Not really, I mean sure it advances turning, but the majority don't use it. Plus you need to worship Pelor which prevents you from worshiping the concept of undeath and planning.

Is this strictly greater than your average cleric PrC? Not really.

You know what RSoP gets that most other cleric PrCs don't get? Advancing turning.

Most clerics either max turning or ignore it in favor of fueling other feats, generally devotions. So advancing turning is meaningless to the ones that aren't actively trying to boost their turn undead.

Other than the really oddly placed Martial Weapon Proficiency, which I already recommended dropping if it really bothers you, there's almost nothing that recommends RSoP to anyone that isn't planning on healing or turning undead.

To summarize my whole rant I guess, if Turn Undead is a powerful tool in your campaigns, then sure, RSoP may be more than a tad OP for your campaigns, but for the most part, it should be greatly overshadowed by a myriad of other fullcasting PrCs that grant actually powerful class features.

magic9mushroom
2010-04-07, 09:05 AM
Yes, it's powerful (more powerful than Cleric), but not game-breakingly so. A Cleric's strength is their versatility in casting and their ability to buff themselves, and RSoP doesn't provide a major boost to either.

So yes, it's more powerful, but not significantly so. Unlike, say, Dweomerkeeper.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 09:49 AM
Agreed with m9m, JaronK and Kylarra. It is "too powerful" in the sense that it doesn't really cost you anything to take it, but it is no more broken than a straight cleric.

The Adaptation makes it even better - Pelor's domains suck, but you can get any domain granted by a Sun deity. If you pick another deity/pantheon, like Apollo or Sovereign Host, you are refunded the domain you had to waste on Sun - getting goodies like Magic, Time, Creation, Celerity, Force, and even Travel.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-07, 09:49 AM
I think it's highly powered.lolz

Anyway OP. Yes it is broken. This class doesn't do what everybody thinks upon first read. Overall it doesn't do anything optimally. Clerics shouldn't be interested in proficiencies. Turning isn't as good as rebuking. Even more levels in cleric will progress casting. There are better ways of gaining domains, light halos, etc.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 09:57 AM
Turning isn't as good as rebuking.

DMM doesn't care which one you're using, actually.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-07, 11:22 AM
RSoP is one of my fave classes, although I often use Re-Horthanky for my parton and just adjust the name and prereq.

Why Re? Glory and Sun domains. Bonuses vs. Undead outta the Wazoo.

My fave combo is:

Race: Lesser Aasamir
Class: Cloistered Lightbringer Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Re-Horthanky 10/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1/Sacred Exorcist 2

As your Contemplaive Domain, I suggest Watery Death or the other domain that improves turning (undeath or deathless I think)

Doug Lampert
2010-04-07, 11:37 AM
That is because you are playing your character as a healbot. If you were to play your character as a standard buff and slash cleric who happens to be able to heal better and has a couple of useful if not that powerful class features then you might see the problem with this PrC that others have.
I once commented on another forum that if you made all the cleric's healing spells except Mass Heal was limited to self only or damaging undead, then a cleric with magic and travel domain would be the strongest class in core.

The counter-arguments can be summarized, "Yes, but that's because you're taking away everyone else's healing". I pointed out that there are four other core classes that get cure spells and that anyone with UMD can use a magic stick, and I hadn't done a thing to any of them. And was then told that the other classes were that much weaker without a dedicated heal-bot cleric and that's why this looked like it would be strong. Mere druids and the like don't count, they NEED their heal-bot cleric.

So I offered that you could have two clerics in the party, one a heal-bot and the other a real cleric, and asked what other character would be stronger than the non-healbot....

Throughout the discussion NO ONE disputed the basic claim. If a cleric isn't heal-botting he's the strongest character class in core only. His "weaknesses" are that he's missing a handful of spells a wizard gets, but he's got some doozies a wizard misses (silence at level 2, miracle at level 9), and he can use domains and items to duplicate the handful of actually useful missing spells.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 11:57 AM
RSoP is one of my fave classes, although I often use Re-Horthanky for my parton and just adjust the name and prereq.

Why Re? Glory and Sun domains. Bonuses vs. Undead outta the Wazoo.

Actually, you can get Glory no matter which sun deity you have - the class specifically allows you to pick Glory and Purification even if your deity doesn't normally offer those domains.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-07, 11:59 AM
Actually, you can get Glory no matter which sun deity you have - the class specifically allows you to pick Glory and Purification even if your deity doesn't normally offer those domains.

True, but I like the Khopesh...

Starbuck_II
2010-04-07, 12:02 PM
I like Incarnum domain from the class (every Diety has that domain according to MoI).

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-07, 01:37 PM
I like Incarnum domain from the class (every Diety has that domain according to MoI).

I don't ever use incarnum...Too complicated...

I'm just a Ravenloft Veteran who fears undead, so I deal several d12's in damage to them with Lightbringer, Faith in the Frost, Light of Aurifar, Improved Turning, Quicken Turning, and Exalted Turning...

Starbuck_II
2010-04-07, 02:01 PM
I don't ever use incarnum...Too complicated...

I'm just a Ravenloft Veteran who fears undead, so I deal several d12's in damage to them with Lightbringer, Faith in the Frost, Light of Aurifar, Improved Turning, Quicken Turning, and Exalted Turning...

No, Soulmelds in Incarnum are complicated. Incarnum domain = feat/spells.

Basically, you have soul energy called essentia. Things call for it, but it never gets used up. As souls are eternal.

[Incarnum] Spells have a basic effect and an augment by essentia effect (increased DC, damage, etc).
So it is similar to 4E Psionics, but basically it adds a point system to a spell slot/feat system.
4E Psionics has at wills they can augment to be stronger than encounters (but limited in points in low levels so can't do that often).

Example, Wall of Incarnum has a base effect: wall that deals essentia (or to non-incarnums wisdom damage) that touches it. Crossing the wall requires a will save (the damage happens no matter what).
Spells can't cross the wall.

If you augment it with essentia*, you increase damage of wall (but only if fail save).

* Reason to not augment it is, you only have so much essentia and till the spell's duration is up you don't get essentia back for further empowering of spells.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-07, 02:06 PM
No, Soulmelds in Incarnum are complicated. Incarnum domain = feat/spells.

Basically, you have soul energy called essentia. Things call for it, but it never gets used up. As souls are eternal.

[Incarnum] Spells have a basic effect and an augment by essentia effect (increased DC, damage, etc).
So it is similar to 4E Psionics, but basically it adds a point system to a spell slot/feat system.
4E Psionics has at wills they can augment to be stronger than encounters (but limited in points in low levels so can't do that often).

My DMs hate it, and I just got the book. Apparently, a Battledancer 1/Paladin of Slaughter 5/Hexbalde 3/Soulborn 7/Suel Archanamac 4 is a good combo...

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 02:08 PM
Soulborn

*vomits uncontrollably*

Starbuck_II
2010-04-07, 02:10 PM
You've made Soulborn a good class? I'm scared. That is a worse eldritch horror than Cthulhu you've unleashed. :smallbiggrin:

Kylarra
2010-04-07, 02:12 PM
My DMs hate it, and I just got the book. Apparently, a Battledancer 1/Paladin of Slaughter 5/Hexbalde 3/Soulborn 7/Suel Archanamac 4 is a good combo...I'm not really seeing the draw. Although given who I'm talking to, Soulborn probably has some absurd houserules applied to it, so I'll wait and see.