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Valairn
2010-04-06, 11:18 PM
Tide Walker

Thanks to Krimm Blackleaf, The Demented One, and Fax Celestis for all their awesome homebrew work!

"Have you ever been in the middle of a hurricane at sea son? Let me tell you, I've been sailing for over fifty years, and nothing was quite so terrifying as when I met one of those sailors who had sailed with Besmara, and when I say met, I mean after he had sunk the boat I was on and killed most of the crew. He was like a hurricane, but he had a will, a will as capricious and terrible as the ocean that bore him."

Tide Walkers come from many backgrounds, but one tie binds them, their deep love for the ocean. Many who become Tide Walkers have had an encounter with Besmara the Pirate Goddess, but many others simply have learned the tricks through years of watching the waves. Not only are they in touch with the ocean itself they are deeply linked to the chaotic Maelstrom that surrounds the planes as well. The chaotic mess that composes the Maelstrom is an ocean in its own right, hiding secrets in its depths and roiling with a fervor even the mightiest storms cannot match. The Tide Walker is a man in between two worlds, personifying the capricious nature of the deep, while remaining ever tied to the land. He is like a missionary, bringing the power of the waves wherever he roams.

Religion: Tide Walkers revere any god who has some part to play in the ocean, but they particularly revere the Goddess Besmara(Pathfinder Setting) the Pirate Queen, who roams the Maelstrom looting all of the planes even the high towers of Heaven and the low depths of the Abyss.

Alignment: Tide Walkers must be Chaotic.

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(religion), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, Profession, Swim, Tumble

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
(4 + Int Modifier)

Proficiencies: Martial Weapons, Simple Weapons, Light Armor

{table=head]Level|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort[br] Save|Ref[br] Save|Will[br] Save|Special|Maximum [br]Maelstrom [br]Damage|Maneuvers[br] Known|Maneuvers[br] Readied|Stances[br] Known
1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Maelstrom Sword |1d6 |3 |3|1
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Armor of Waves |1d6 |4 |3|1
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Fluidity |1d6 |5 |3|1
4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Frozen Wave |1d6 |5 |4|1
5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|-- |2d6 |6 |4|1
6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Capricious Wind |2d6 |6 |4|2
7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|-- |2d6 |7 |4|2
8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|Crashing Wave |2d6 |7 |4|2
9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|-- |3d6 |8 |4|2
10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|Tide Walking |3d6 |8 |5|2
11th|+8/+3|+4|+7|+7|-- |3d6 |9 |5|3
12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Riptide |3d6 |9 |5|3
13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|-- |4d6 |10|5|3
14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|Great Swell |4d6 |10|5|3
15th|+11/+5/+1|+5|+9|+9|-- |4d6 |11|6|3
16th|+12/+5/+2|+5|+10|+10|Raging Maelstrom |4d6 |11|6|4
17th|+12/+5/+2|+5|+10|+10|-- |5d6 |12|6|4
18th|+13/+6/+3|+6|+11|+11|Pressure of the Deep |5d6 |12|6|4
19th|+14/+7/+4|+6|+11|+11|-- |5d6 |13|6|4
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|Tsunami Strike |5d6 |13|7|4[/table]

Martial Maneuvers - A may learn maneuvers from:
Ocean Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205)
Kaleidoscopic Dream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86163)
Devoted Spirit

For Maneuvers with DC checks, use Charisma instead of Wisdom.

Maneuver Recovery - A Tide Walker may recover maneuvers by sacrificing Maelstrom Damage Dice based on the table below. He may not benefit from the feat adaptive style normally. If you currently have multiple types of energy damage associated with your weapon, you may choose which dice to sacrifice. If he has no damage dice to sacrifice, he may instead use a full round action to recover a single maneuver.

Without Adaptive Style
{table=head]Dice Sacrificed|Effect
1d6|Regain Prepared Maneuver
3d6|Change Prepared Maneuver in Combat
[/table]

With Adaptive Style
{table=head]Dice Sacrificed|Effect
1d6|Regain 2 Prepared Maneuver
1d6|Change Prepared Maneuver in Combat
[/table]

Maelstrom Sword - When activated as a swift action, a weapon of Crashing Waves and Chaos appears in the hands of the Tide Walker, the sword appears to look like a longsword with a blade made of ocean waves of many colors, unless the wielder wills otherwise the weapon makes sounds as a crashing wave as well. The weapon counts as a longsword in all respects(19-20/x2), except for damage, it deals 1d6 + Cha damage. Attacks made with the Chaos Weapon are considered melee touch attacks and deal acid damage. The Weapon may be enhanced as a normal weapon. This weapon cannot be used by anyone but the Tide Walker.

Whenever a Tide Walker enters combat his sword starts at the beginning dealing 1d6 damage. Whenever he makes a martial strike, or moves 20' or more in a round, the damage dice for his weapon increases by 1d6, up to his Maximum Maelstrom Damage, the damage dice does not increase until the next round of combat. If he makes a strike and moves in the same round, the increases do not stack for determining how many dice to add to the weapon(in other words the Tide Walker may only gain 1d6 damage dice per round). For every round past the first that the Tide Walker does not move 20' or use a martial strike, he sacrifices 1d6 damage on his Maelstrom Weapon.

The Maelstrom sword uses your dexterity modifier to hit, and does not benefit from strength for to hit or for damage.

The Maelstrom sword is considered a light weapon. It cannot be power attacked with.
This is a supernatural ability.

Armor of Waves - When unarmored or wearing light armor the Tide Walker adds their Charisma bonus(if any) to AC. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the Tide Walker is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any medium or heavier armor, and when she carries a shield. This is a supernatural ability.

Fluidity - The Tide Walker's base land speed increases by 10', in addition whenever you are in a martial stance you are treated as if you are also in the Breath of the Sea stance from the Ocean Soul Discipline, even if you do not know the stance.

Frozen Wave - Whenever a Tide Walker is eligible to add damage dice to his weapon, he may opt to change the new damage dice's damage type to cold damage.

Capricious Wind - During a move action or a charge(including martial strikes that use charge attacks), you may opt to make attacks of oppurtunity against enemies as you pass squares where you threaten them, for each attack of oppurtunity you make, you sacrifice 1d6 Maelstrom Damage Dice, this includes any additional attacks you make for the duration of the round. These attacks of oppurtunity count against your maximum for the round.

Crashing Wave - Whenever a Tide Walker is eligible to add damage dice to his weapon, he may opt to change the new damage dice's damage type to sonic damage.

Tide Walking - Whenever a Tide Walker is within 20' of ocean water, he gains the benefit of the Freedom of Movement spell. (Yes he can put some in a jar or something and carry it around with him, if he wants.)

Riptide - The Tide Walker's base land speed increases by 10' again. In addition, whenever you move 20' or more and use a martial strike, as an immediate action you may sacrifice 2d6 Maelstrom Damage Dice to cause a great wave to rise up and carry the enemy of your strike to the position you began your turn in, the target takes 1d4 acid damage for every 5' moved in this manner. The wave is considered a bull rush with a +14 strength bonus, and as long as it succeeds it will keep pushing until it is in the square you started in. If he passes through squares in which an enemy threatens him, that enemy may make an attack of oppurtunity. This is a supernatural ability.

Great Swell - A number of times per day equal to her charisma modifier, whenever a Tide Walker gains an additional damage dice to her Maelstrom Damage, she may add an extra damage dice, you may only do this once per round.

Raging Maelstrom - As a full round action you may make a martial strike against a single enemy, if that attack succeeds you may then make a single attack on all enemies that suround you, at the start of the next round you lose all additional damage dice on your Maelstrom weapon. This is a supernatural ability.

Pressure of the Deep - Attacks of oppurtunity you take due to the capricious wind class ability no longer reduce your damage dice for the duration of that round and only take effect in the following round.

Tsunami Strike - You may opt to sacrifice 4d6 of Maelstrom damage dice(including this round) as a free action, during your next martial strike, you may as an immediate action use an additional strike.


Maelstrom Weapon Enhancement
For the cost of a +2 enhancement the Maelstrom weapon may be enhanced to have an additional 1d6 Maximum Maelstrom damage.
For the cost of a +1 enhancement the Maelstrom weapon may be enhanced to start combat with an additional d6 of damage, you may specify the addtional damage type as either acid, sonic, or cold, if you posess the class features to do so.


Changelog:

7 April 2010 - Specified that the weapon did not benefit from strength at all, and that it could not be power attacked with. Specified the action requirement of Raging Maelstrom.
Please review! I love me some feedback.

8 April 2010 - v2.0 of the class.

9 April 2010 - Cut damage dice in half, edited damage dice gain to only make it possible to increase damage by 1d6 per round, edited various costs of abilities to line up with new damage dice. Added a comment on potential weapon enhancements tailored for the Maelstrom weapon.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-06, 11:31 PM
This looks perfect for a PrC...but the viablity of a 20 level class seems oddly spread thin. Not in its application but in its over all set up.

What you have is a Barbarian ToB style, with way more focused "Fluff" so to speak. Great idea for a PrC class, as said, but its just to specific for a full class.

Valairn
2010-04-06, 11:40 PM
I disagree. This is not a barbarian with focused fluff anymore than a paladin is just a fighter with focused fluff. There are lots of classes with dead levels spread as such, and really there aren't nearly as many dead levels as may seem, there are maneuvers gained, stances, more maelstrom damage, there are lots of little ups to look forward to, now i could add more special abilities in and around the class, but I run dangerously close to just giving it too much.

Nobody ever complained that a wizard only got a bonus feat every 5 levels.

EDIT: And even more so, I have introduced a very unique mechanic here, which does not play well with other classes, I would have to make a base class, to get the proper progression of the mechanic, so that I could then make a prestige class for the base class I just made. That's a problem. I appreciate the suggestion though.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-06, 11:58 PM
I fail to see anything unique about this class. It looks like another soulknife fix honestly, albeit a strange one as you used ToB obviously.

I'm also confused as to why you gave it acid damage at the first level. Or at all for that matter.

It could in fact be better applied to a prestige class, especially since it is very closely tied to one specific discipline as other PrCs are. All the official ToB base classes have no abilities specifically tied to to one discipline. They're supposed to be more general than a PrC, which in turn are meant to be more specific.

No one questions the fact that wizards get a feat "only" every 5 levels because spells are that much more powerful and useful than anything else in the game.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:02 AM
You ever watch a wave head up onto a shore and the way it kind of cascades back down into the sea pulling the sand along with it. If you've ever watched acid run down the side of something, it can look kind of like that. You are crashing the waves down on a person, and as the wave goes back into the ocean it pulls away some of the sand, it just so happens that the sand is your skin. Enjoy!

EDIT: The three martial disciplines this class has access to, are all very powerful, Devoted Spirit on its own is considered to be the most powerful core discipline. Its in fact one of the reasons why the Crusader class has so many dead levels and access to the fewest Disciplines, cause it gets most of its awesome from the Devoted Spirit discipline itself.

Now I can kind of see the soul knife comparison, but even then this class really works nothing like the soulknife does.

Also there is only one very specific ability which pulls from one of the disciplines and the reason for that is, it was simply redundant to give the class water breathing and a swim speed, when it was technically already provided by the discipline. But I wanted to make it permanent so I did, in a way that is a bit of a compromise.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 12:05 AM
Sorry, I mis-spoke.

Its a fluffy barbarian/warblade mechanically better warlock/soul knife/swordsage.

As it stands, the class itself is way over powered. Great manuever progression. Equal general stats as the Sword Sage, free blade that he can wip out, which he can freely use with his manuevers..which the damage here just gets complelty out of hand.



Maelstrom Sword - When activated as a swift action, a weapon of Crashing Waves and Chaos appears in the hands of the Tide Walker, the sword appears to look like a longsword with a blade made of ocean waves of many colors, unless the wielder wills otherwise the weapon makes sounds as a crashing wave as well. The weapon counts as a longsword in all respects(19-20/x2), except for damage, which according to the Maelstrom damage table plus your cha modifier. Attacks made with the Chaos Weapon are considered melee touch attacks and deal acid damage. The Weapon may be enhanced as a normal weapon, but the cost is as if it is made out of cold iron. This weapon cannot be used by anyone but the Tide Walker. This is a supernatural ability.

Not to mention this is touch attack. Wow. I mean. WOW. I don't think I have to say how insanely unbalanced this ability is alone.

Then you get to this gem


Crashing Wave - As a move action the Tide Walker may change the type of damage his Maelstrom Sword deals to Sonic Damage. The Tide Walker may cancel this effect as a move action.

7d6 sonic damge. Mmmmm yes please. This ability is completly unbalanced. There is a reason sonic damage is so rare and often times far weaker in dice then other elemental types.


Raging Maelstrom - Once per day, you turn into a Raging Maelstrom, waves of chaos crash out of you in all directions. All creatures within a 20ft. radius of you must make a reflex save(DC 18 + Cha) or take 5d6 acid damage, 5d6 cold damage, and 5d6 sonic damage, save for half. This is a supernatural ability.

So...on top of all his other manuevers, a free sword that deals a crap ton of damage (Almost as much as sneak attack but way easier to use) he gets a massive blast that deals 15d6 points of damage. I've already said his moves are unbalanced, this isn't anywhere near as crazy as his Blade...but still. This is pretty wicked.


Tsunami Strike - Once per day, whenever you use a martial strike, you may as an immediate action use an additional strike.

The one a day saves this from tipping this class from unbalanced to Why Isn't Everyone Playing This Class.



As it stands. This class is the Swordsage but better. Thats not a good thing. This class is total cheese.



EDIT: And even more so, I have introduced a very unique mechanic here, which does not play well with other classes, I would have to make a base class, to get the proper progression of the mechanic, so that I could then make a prestige class for the base class I just made. That's a problem. I appreciate the suggestion though.

Whats exactly...unique about this class? :smallconfused:

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:07 AM
Compare to Eldritch Glaive, which deals untyped damage or typed depending on Eldritch Essence.

EDIT: Now as far as too much damage is concerned, I can take that hit, and am willing to tone down aspects of the class.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 12:08 AM
Warlocks don't get maneuvers. And Eldritch Glaive is subject to SR.

EDIT: They also only have a d6 HD and can't wear armor.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:10 AM
No particular reason I couldn't make it untyped and subject to spell resistance, I just liked the visual /shrug. Also I can easily just reduce progression on the blade itself.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 12:11 AM
Ok...giving one ability dosn't really..refute anything else listed above.

This class is just everything great about a handful of classes thrown togather to make a single class. It gets a free -TOUCH- attack based weapon, that deals sonic damage when ever it wants (making it lethal against objects and people alike) that can be enchanted like a normal weapon (Soulknife/Warlock)

It gets free AC and movement enchancments plus manuevers from as you refer to it "The Best Disciple" plus two other very strong ones. (Swordsage). Added on to the d8 hit die...this class is utterly beyond balance.

Then you throw on some other rather nasty powers...are you seeing where this class dosn't -just- have a damage problem?

Edit:
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the Tide Walker is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any medium or heavier armor, and when she carries a shield. This is a supernatural ability.

This ability is in fact -better- then swordsage and monk AC boosts. At this point the only answer I have is a sadly mangaled english lolwut?

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 12:12 AM
Okay, I shouldn't have mentioned the SR. Touch attacks are extremely useful. Stack those on top of awesome maneuvers and we've got problems. Not only that, this sword is absolutely free.

EDIT: Nerf the sword (make it a class stance dealy), and turn this into a PrC.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:13 AM
Calm down dude, if I thought it was perfect, I wouldn't have asked for criticism.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 12:15 AM
The only reason he's getting frustrated is because you're dodging the main points... :smallsigh:

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 12:22 AM
I'm not getting frustrated. :smalleek::smallconfused:

I'm stressing the points that are beyond broken.

But yes, you are dodging any criticism, so that does make me think your not really looking for it.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:22 AM
Okay.

I really did not balance this class around Tier 3 or lower.

I aimed for Tier 2 and probably hit low Tier 1. But this guy still loses to Tier 1 classes shenanigans, in fact all I have really going for me, is hp damage, I am not the only class that can do lots of hp damage, in fact a properly built fighter, can do similar.

Now I'm willing to discuss your problems, but I don't actually know what you think is reasonable(hp damage as an example). It could be we don't actually agree with where the line for balance lies at all. I'd rather hear something about flavor text, or how I could in fact make this class "unique."

Numbers are just numbers, to be tweaked at will, I can tweak numbers all night until you are content.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 12:24 AM
Okay.

I really did not balance this class around Tier 3 or lower.

I aimed for Tier 2 and probably hit low Tier 1. But this guy still loses to Tier 1 classes shenanigans, in fact all I have really going for me, is hp damage, I am not the only class that can do lots of hp damage, in fact a properly built fighter, can do similar.

The teir system is not a level of class balance. Its a theoretical guide to how much a single class can do. And even then, its widely debated at every corner of the hobby.

In other words. Basing a classes "balance" around a theoretical ideal concept of every situation synching up perfectly like the alignments of the heavens is doomed to failure every single time.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:26 AM
One more time.

I aimed for this class to be equivalent in power to a Wizard, lets start there. Is he better then a wizard?

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:38 AM
This ability is in fact -better- then swordsage and monk AC boosts. At this point the only answer I have is a sadly mangaled english lolwut?

From the SRD:

"When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. "

I would also note that for the monk this ability is extraordinary. Mine is supernatural, additionally so is my sword, and almost every other power i have. An anti-magic field and my class is entirely shut down, literally, I have nothing, even the majority of my strikes are supernatural abilities, and I have no way to defend against this.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 12:39 AM
Okay, maybe I was speaking more for myself when I said frustrated. But that aside, if you want tier 2 or 1, make a caster class. What you have here as Innis put it, is cheese.

Damage output is indeed the only thing he could do, while the wizard or sorcerer can quite literally play with the cosmos like a ragdoll. You can't really compare the two. This class does however outshine every other melee base class. If this class is allowed in any game, anyone who wants to play a melee class of any kind, will play this class because aside from casters there is nothing that can get anywhere near its level of combat ability.

Nerf the sword. Damage should not scale anywhere past 2d10, in fact, I don't even like this scaling damage. It doesn't make sense for a ToB class who has maneuvers that can buff up their damage anyway. Scrap touch attacks, that's more powerful than brilliant energy. Also scrap the Charisma to damage thing, maybe a smite ability, but definitely not on every attack.

Honestly, there isn't much to work with. I'd give more suggestions, but this class really needs to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch and I'm tired and cold right now.

EDIT:
From the SRD:

"When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. "

I would also note that for the monk this ability is extraordinary. Mine is supernatural, additionally so is my sword, and almost every other power i have. An anti-magic field and my class is entirely shut down, literally, I have nothing, even the majority of my strikes are supernatural abilities, and I have no way to defend against this.

The Monk can't wear armor. 'nuff said.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:47 AM
Not to mention this is touch attack. Wow. I mean. WOW. I don't think I have to say how insanely unbalanced this ability is alone.


Arguable, but a warlock can do this with eldritch glaive, with an essence essentialy creating the exact same effect, with reach!


7d6 sonic damge. Mmmmm yes please. This ability is completly unbalanced. There is a reason sonic damage is so rare and often times far weaker in dice then other elemental types.

7d6 sonic damage at level 18. Clearly an issue. Nothing deals 7d6 damage at level 18...... I hate being glib, but you've been a little insulting.



So...on top of all his other maneuvers, a free sword that deals a crap ton of damage (Almost as much as sneak attack but way easier to use) he gets a massive blast that deals 15d6 points of damage. I've already said his moves are unbalanced, this isn't anywhere near as crazy as his Blade...but still. This is pretty wicked.

I actually agree with this one, I modeled this ability after the emerald immolation ability of a Jade Phoenix mage, which does 20d6 fire damage and banish's outsiders.

I had originally made this ability to be a kind of aoe bull rush with potential acid damage, Would that be better?




The one a day saves this from tipping this class from unbalanced to Why Isn't Everyone Playing This Class.


Yes, one a day is all you really need anyway. Also 20 levels of nothing but this class is a hefty commitment and should be rewarded. That's why its the capstone, because its epic.



As it stands. This class is the Swordsage but better. Thats not a good thing. This class is total cheese.

I won't comment on this one, as its mostly opinion.




Whats exactly...unique about this class? :smallconfused:

What exactly is unique about a guy who carries around a sword made out of ocean waves that can breathe water and swim like a fish. Can create tidal waves out of the fabric of reality, and draws his power from elemental chaos? You tell me.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:49 AM
The Monk can't wear armor. 'nuff said.

But the swordsage can, and gains the same benefit. But if you want me to drop armor proficiency and force it to be unarmored only, it really isn't outside the bounds of the class's flavor.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:53 AM
Also scrap the Charisma to damage thing, maybe a smite ability, but definitely not on every attack.


What if I were to write this as:

Also scrap the Strength to damage thing, maybe a smite ability, but definitely not on every attack. The design is that this sword does not use strength. Should I clarify that you do not get strength bonus to damage?


Nerf the sword. Damage should not scale anywhere past 2d10, in fact, I don't even like this scaling damage.

I on the other hand, do like the scaling damage. I would rather drop the ability to enhance the weapon then drop the scaling. 7d6 deals an average of 21.5 damage, an average, I could smash that to friggin bits with any properly built character. And that's at level 18. Level 18, you know when wizards are stopping time and force-caging anything that moves. Now if I full attack, I generate the possibility of 3 attacks, or 60 damage in a round on average IF all the attacks hit. A power attacker does more in a round. I cannot make this damage go up without maneuvers.

Avasculate is a 7th level spell that can instantly wipe out half of a monster's current hp. Harm does 10 damage per caster level or 180 at this point. Rumors of damage are grossly exaggerated. There are better ways to number it up.

Now if you add in maneuvers, you can generate some really fantastic numbers without a lot of optimization, but I consider that a good thing, endlessly optimizing and scouring through twenty books just so I can make my character do what I imagine is not necessarily "fun."

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 12:54 AM
One more time.

I aimed for this class to be equivalent in power to a Wizard, lets start there. Is he better then a wizard?

This still dosn't compute. Every class is strong depending on a series of factors including DM, item avalibilty, Resources outside of items such as in game down time and what books are usable and which arn't.

Again, balancing one class against another's precived power level is doomed to failure.



What exactly is unique about a guy who carries around a sword made out of ocean waves that can breathe water and swim like a fish. Can create tidal waves out of the fabric of reality, and draws his power from elemental chaos? You tell me.

Wizard. Druid. Sorcerer. Archivest. Favored Soul. Cleric. So, nothing. Anything he can do, a spell can do. How exactly is he unique again? Oh..right...he's not unique at all.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 01:03 AM
This still dosn't compute. Every class is strong depending on a series of factors including DM, item avalibilty, Resources outside of items such as in game down time and what books are usable and which arn't.

Again, balancing one class against another's precived power level is doomed to failure.

I can marginally agree with that, but I designed this class to play with the big boys, in a field where the big boys are allowed to play without deliberately breaking the game. Work with that.





Wizard. Druid. Sorcerer. Archivest. Favored Soul. Cleric. So, nothing. Anything he can do, a spell can do. How exactly is he unique again? Oh..right...he's not unique at all.

Heh(my trap has worked!), so we agree then. Its all been thought up already, I simply built a package of flavored abilities into a single class, so I didn't have to multi-class into oblivion.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 01:10 AM
Calm down dude, if I thought it was perfect, I wouldn't have asked for criticism.

I can marginally agree with that, but I designed this class to play with the big boys, in a field where the big boys are allowed to play without deliberately breaking the game. Work with that.

These two statements are contradictory

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 01:11 AM
Heh(my trap has worked!), so we agree then. Its all been thought up already, I simply built a package of flavored abilities into a single class, so I didn't have to multi-class into oblivion.

Yes, but the intent of this exists already. Its called a prestige class. As my first post attempted to asses the situation.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 01:21 AM
These two statements are contradictory

No they aren't. One was a take on why would I submit a class to a public forum, if I wasn't asking for feedback. The other was a consideration towards a balance question, and attempting to direct feedback to aim for the appropriate "power level" which is clearly over 9000 apparently.


Yes, but the intent of this exists already. Its called a prestige class. As my first post attempted to asses the situation.

Prestige classes can in fact be used that way, so can base classes. I used a base class. Clearly no one should play psychic warriors you can just make a psion/fighter multi-class.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 01:25 AM
Prestige classes can in fact be used that way, so can base classes. I used a base class. Clearly no one should play psychic warriors you can just make a psion/fighter multi-class.

At the risk of arguing over basic quibbles, their not even closely related. A Psychic Warrior is to Psion as Paladin is to Cleric and Fighter.

What you have here isn't magic mixed with martial training. Its "A warrior that uses the chaos and fury of the ocean to kill crap dead." Thats prime PrC material.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 01:25 AM
Clearly you believe your class is perfect or you wouldn't be rejecting every single suggestion we've made and justify it by the fact that you WANT it to be over powered.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 01:29 AM
At the risk of arguing over basic quibbles, their not even closely related. A Psychic Warrior is to Psion as Paladin is to Cleric and Fighter.

What you have here isn't magic mixed with martial training. Its "A warrior that uses the chaos and fury of the ocean to kill crap dead." Thats prime PrC material.

And a paladin is more or less a Fighter/Cleric multi-class with a few flavor abilities added on, but a base class. I mean there is a reason that in Unearthed Arcana they had a "prestige" paladin. Because it clearly works as a prestige class concept. But it also works as a base-class concept, the difference between the two, is generally just in how many abilities are packed into how many levels, and whether or not there are entry requirements.

And the entry requirements for PrC's are really a similar cost to staying in a class long enough to get "the good stuff."

This is probably quibbling, but I started it so... /shrug quibble away, its my fault.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 01:31 AM
Clearly you believe your class is perfect or you wouldn't be rejecting every single suggestion we've made and justify it by the fact that you WANT it to be over powered.

I've asked for the line at which you measure overpowered is, we clearly have a disagreement on what overpowered means, do you think a wizard is overpowered, what makes him overpowered? IF you don't think a wizard is overpowered, then why is my class, when my class is clearly less functional then a wizard.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 01:33 AM
And a paladin is more or less a Fighter/Cleric multi-class with a few flavor abilities added on, but a base class. I mean there is a reason that in Unearthed Arcana they had a "prestige" paladin. Because it clearly works as a prestige class concept. But it also works as a base-class concept, the difference between the two, is generally just in how many abilities are packed into how many levels, and whether or not there are entry requirements.

This dosn't particularly help your argument, in so far as the Prestige Paladin is generally considered better then the actual base class.

Not to mention the Paladin -can- do things neither a Cleric, Fighter or mix of the two in various level builds could do.

Your class is, as said, the best of one very poor class. One very balanced class and the Swordsage which generally varies in balance from DM to DM. Doing things that generally no melee class can do.

There is -no- reason not to take this class the full twenty levels. In fact, anyone prestiging out of this class is a fool. They lose way to much and gain nothing this class wouldn't otherwise get by doing so.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 01:35 AM
This dosn't particularly help your argument, in so far as the Prestige Paladin is generally considered better then the actual base class.

Not to mention the Paladin -can- do things neither a Cleric, Fighter or mix of the two in various level builds could do.

Your class is, as said, the best of one very poor class. One very balanced class and the Swordsage which generally varies in balance from DM to DM. Doing things that generally no melee class can do.

There is -no- reason not to take this class the full twenty levels. In fact, anyone prestiging out of this class is a fool. They lose way to much and gain nothing this class wouldn't otherwise get by doing so.

The last point is actually a design mentality I have, I think there should be a reason to stay in a class for all 20 levels. Otherwise, why give it twenty levels?

EDIT: In addition, the capstone of the class is similar to the swordsages, which is dual boost, dual boost, is actually massively powerful, but people prestige out of swordsage all the time, even though there are lots of really good reasons to progress one to full.

EDIT2: There is another issue here, the main reason to take this class to twenty levels is the fact that its main mechanic, the sword, is only upgraded by this class. What if there were twenty prestige classes providing different Maelstrom weapon abilities in different packages, then suddenly there are lots of reasons to prestige out, this is what i meant when I said my class had a unique mechanic, what I really meant was "unsupported."

What if I dropped the ability to upgrade the Maelstrom Sword? How much fix would that be? After all, on its own, its just a slower progressed melee eldritch blast you can full attack with, which really just means a slower progressed melee-only eldritch blast.

EDIT: I do have one more quibble, you keep using the word balance, but I really don't know what you mean by that, one person's balanced is another person's pun-pun.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 01:47 AM
What if I dropped the ability to upgrade the Maelstrom Sword? How much fix would that be? After all, on its own, its just a slower progressed melee eldritch blast you can full attack with.

EDIT: I do have one more quibble, you keep using the word balance, but I really don't know what you mean by that, one person's balanced is another person's pun-pun.

1. I want you to look at that statement. I want you to look good and hard at it and see whats wrong with it.

2. No. Just...no. There are things that are -clearly- unbalanced. Anything that makes the rest of the party useless is unbalanced. And before you say "But the Wizard blah blah blah" I'm going to stop you. Its possible to make a "Bad" wizard. Its possible to make a "Bad" cleric or druid. And where I use the word "Bad" I mean the class is just as powerful as everyone else, and dosn't dominate the game. More or less, how the class was intended to be played, not played as a theoretical mind game of numbers for very bored people.

Your class can't go wrong. There's no way to mess it up. Its powerful out of the box at level 1. And it gets better all the way to 20. While thats fair, its -to- powerful, and to focused -not- to be a PrC.

In fact, there are PrC's that do just this but way less...overboard. I don't have my books, and I'm not going to take the time to go through all the PrC's that do what you want with this class but better. I've given you all the reasons this class is way over powered.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 02:01 AM
1. I want you to look at that statement. I want you to look good and hard at it and see whats wrong with it.

Eldritch Glaive provides the exact same ability, with a better damage progression, must I repeat this over and over?



2. No. Just...no. There are things that are -clearly- unbalanced. Anything that makes the rest of the party useless is unbalanced. And before you say "But the Wizard blah blah blah" I'm going to stop you. Its possible to make a "Bad" wizard. Its possible to make a "Bad" cleric or druid. And where I use the word "Bad" I mean the class is just as powerful as everyone else, and dosn't dominate the game. More or less, how the class was intended to be played, not played as a theoretical mind game of numbers for very bored people.
This largely runs back into... I designed it to be good out of the box, without having to read twenty source books, I fail to see how this is a bad thing, or somehow makes the class overpowered. Simply because someone can make a bad wizard, does not make the wizard class any less awesome. There are sub-optimal decisions to be made with my class largely in maneuver choice, but I covered over a lot of those sup-optimal decisions by designing around them, so you don't have to multi-class if you don't want to, just to make a mechanically functional character.


In fact, there are PrC's that do just this but way less...overboard. I don't have my books, and I'm not going to take the time to go through all the PrC's that do what you want with this class but better. I've given you all the reasons this class is way over powered.

I've heard two complaints.

1. You think this class is capable of too much damage.
I actually have a post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8239812&postcount=20). On why I disagree with that.

2. You think it should be a prc, because its "focused." Which is not really a problem, its a design preference.

How is the class too powerful, other then its damage numbers?

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 02:03 AM
I've asked for the line at which you measure overpowered is, we clearly have a disagreement on what overpowered means, do you think a wizard is overpowered, what makes him overpowered? IF you don't think a wizard is overpowered, then why is my class, when my class is clearly less functional then a wizard.

Wizard is only overpowered because of the sheer amount of options it has, not because he can end you in one turn. Because of the volume of options, there are more unchecked loopholes for him to abuse. Those abuses are what makes Wizard a tier 1 class, not the class itself. If you build a class to be on par with Tier 1 play with no optimization, can you see what would happen if players started to use that cheese?

Valairn
2010-04-07, 02:06 AM
But this class is definitely not within the tier 1 level of play.

Sure, some of the maneuvers I have are good, but are available to other classes, sometimes in more effective formats.

The damage I am capable of is admittedly strong, but not outside of the ability of a person optimizing for damage, in fact its less then that.

Some of the abilities I have are good, but can be duplicated by spells at similar level ranges, and I don't even have the same breadth of options available.

EDIT: As much as I am loving this discussion, I need to go to bed, work and stuff.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 02:17 AM
But this class is definitely not within the tier 1 level of play.

No. Nothing is in Teir 1 play. Because there is no such thing. Its -THEORY-.



Eldritch Glaive provides the exact same ability, with a better damage progression, must I repeat this over and over?

If you really must. It makes no difference now as the few times you've metioned it. Eldritch Glaive is weaker then Maelstrom Blade. On more then one level.

Not only that, but the -class- is stronger then Lock. Warlock has crappy AC. D6 hp and Eldritch Glaive is really just a semi-good option as opposed to other things the Warlock could be doing. In fact, its somewhat underpowered compared to a flying, perma-invis warlock raining death from the sky.

Keep using bad examples if you'd like, but it won't change the fact its apples to hand grenades.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 02:18 AM
If you can't see that this starts out at above the normal melee optimization, I can't convince you otherwise.

However, while Eldritch Glaive has higher damage and reach, it can't improve it much past a few magic items, giving it something like +4d6 damage over the Maelstrom Blade. The Maelstrom blade can easily outclass this by getting enchantments to further raise its damage which is much more powerful than a fistful of d6's. On top of that, He can power attack with it and has a larger repertoire of maneuvers than Warlock has invocations. Not to mention that there aren't many Warlock invocations that actually improve his damage output, while maneuvers were built to deal more damage.

Tomorrow, when I feel like building something, I'll show you how broken this is. Until then I'll argue with you no more.

EDIT: And sort of like Innis says, Tiers can only really be associated with the characters who are built with the class, not the classes themselves.

EDIT EDIT: Aside from this, it seems like you took three disciplines that have nothing to do with one another and crammed them into a 20 level prestige class that only has anything to do with one of them. I don't know who your DM is, but I know for a fact that he either isn't going to let you use this class, or is too stupid to realize that its ridiculously overpowered.

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 02:32 AM
EDIT EDIT: Aside from this, it seems like you took three disciplines that have nothing to do with one another and crammed them into a 20 level prestige class that only has anything to do with one of them. I don't know who your DM is, but I know for a fact that he either isn't going to let you use this class, or is too stupid to realize that its ridiculously overpowered.

Now now, the stupid claim is uncalled for Krazd, take a step back.

The rest of the statement is pretty much how I feel as well.

Kensen
2010-04-07, 04:37 AM
As has been stated before, the class is too focused for a base class. Paladins - I agree - are quite redundant, but they are a sacred cow which this class isn't. The name of the class (while kind of cool) is also too obscure for a base class. The name of a base class should be more descriptive, it should conjure an image of what the class can do. Prestige classes tend to have more focused abilities and fancier names.

As for the power level - I don't see a problem there if all classes and monsters are similarly pimped and each player at the table is ok with that. In some settings (such as shonen anime/manga!) every melee combatant is really badass.

However, there is one major problem I can see. If this class represents the power level melee combatants should have (instead of being the privilege of just one player at the table, for ummmm... some funny reason) it would mean that touch attacks become the baseline for melee combat because anything else is simply less powerful. And if touch attacks are so easy to get, why bother wearing armor anymore if everyone can bypass it anyway? (Be it mentioned that warlocks haven't introduced such a problem because Eldritch Glaive is just about the only powerful melee ability they get.)

The class is probably fun for homebrew games where there are no "normal" melee combatants present, but for the aforementioned reasons, this class would never, ever have been printed in an official 3.5 book. Granted, wizards are still much more powerful than this class, but WotC did introduce less powerful versions of wizards (beguilers, etc.) as an attempt to bridge the gap.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 12:57 PM
Compare to Krimm_Blackleaf's prc here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70397

There is a reason I mentioned Krimm's name first in my thanks. I stole the idea right from Krimm(shameful!). Take a look at the progression of my damage dice compared to the PrC's with a 20 level progression. It should be about the same. He loses one level of warlock to a full bab martial adept class, and then can transition smoothly into this prestige class. Now he doesn't get 9th level maneuvers(but he could, if he used another dual progression prestige class(there are a few out there)), but he does end up with a few of the best invocations. In addition he gains the ability to use martial strikes with a ranged eldritch blast!

So yes, my class is great. Its fantastic, but when we are discussing home brew, I clearly am well within my creative bounds.

And really what are we talking about here, this class does what? A bunch of damage, cool, damage is fun, but really I'm just a pimped out fighter and can every now and then do something quite flashy, big deal, a wizard can do more and better, more consistently without even entering into the cheesey realm.

The complaint leveled at Raging Maelstrom at its 15d6 damage? Its a full round action I can do once a day at level 16.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm

Lets take a look at horrid wilting, it does... oh 16d6 damage in an aoe, and you can prepare it more then once! And you can take this spell without any effort at all! It cost only 400gp to scribe this into a spell book?!?!?!

The reason I am not taking your complaints seriously, is because I actually deliberately put these abilities at spaces which there are similar abilities to be gained with comparatively less effort, who puts 16 levels into a single class to gain a run of the mill aoe?

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 02:06 PM
The reason I am not taking your complaints seriously, is because I actually deliberately put these abilities at spaces which there are similar abilities to be gained with comparatively less effort, who puts 16 levels into a single class to gain a run of the mill aoe?

Then why ask for a critique.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 02:24 PM
Maybe you could have offered some creative rather than balance focused input.

For instance, "You could grant access to a few water domain spells at such and such levels."

Or, "Maybe pare down the damage dice here, and replace it with abilities like, (insert some ability) here, "It would make the class fit the flavor better and reduce dead levels.

Yes, I'm critiquing your critique.

All of your complaints could be bottled up in two statements, "I wouldn't allow this in my campaign, it doesn't work with the power level I play at," and, "I really think this should be a prestige class."

The first one is understandable, but nothing I have done is particularly game-breaking according to the RAW.

EDIT: Additionally numbers are just numbers, if my numbers don't work, you are free to adjust them for your campaign, you could say, "I really like this class, but the numbers are too big for my campaign." All you would have to do is tune them down for your game, cool! Easy and tailorable, discussions about numbers aren't really interesting to me, since they are the easiest part of designing and tweaking a class.

The second one, is simply... useless. I didn't want to make a prestige class. Now if you have recommendations, for how I could make this "worthy" of base-class status from your perspective, I would love to hear it. Maybe you could tell me ways to fill out some of the dead levels? Maybe you could say, instead of having this ability at this level range, why don't you have a progression of abilities at such and such levels.

Those are really useful to me as a home brewer, because I don't always remember everything from every single book that I could include.

I mean for instance one of the original ideas I had for the class was a slow transformation into a water elemental type creature, but I felt that had been done to death through various turn into an outsider capstones, so I passed it over and tried to do something else you don't see a lot of.

the humanity
2010-04-07, 02:40 PM
nerf his AC. no metal, wooden, or leather armor, his wetness would rust and rot that. make him more immune to cold based abilities, but tougher against fire ones.

basically, make him have to fight like a wave- crash, retreat, crash retreat. make him easy to track, drip water, and all that. at 20th level, make him able to melt into water as a move action, not Tsunami Strike. that would make him able to run far easier, and would fit with the flavor.

I think the damage is fitting, but the endurance is what needs to go.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 02:46 PM
nerf his AC. no metal, wooden, or leather armor, his wetness would rust and rot that. make him more immune to cold based abilities, but tougher against fire ones.

basically, make him have to fight like a wave- crash, retreat, crash retreat. make him easy to track, drip water, and all that. at 20th level, make him able to melt into water as a move action, not Tsunami Strike. that would make him able to run far easier, and would fit with the flavor.

I think the damage is fitting, but the endurance is what needs to go.

I could just drop him to unarmored only, that is even thematically appropriate. Consider it done.

I hesitate to alter his subtype, which is what the cold immune, fire weak change would do.

A lot of the fighting style is bottled up in the maneuver system, the Ocean Soul does that fight style in particular. Riptide also does that as well.

I could make him drip water and such. I'll have to think about the capstone change, turning into stuff as a 20th level capstone has been done to death.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 02:54 PM
You didn't answer why you put in Kaleidescope Dream or Devoted Spirit, in terms of fluff, I can't grasp at all what the three disciplines have to do with one another. In terms of mechanics, all I can see is you grabbed your favorite three disciplines (one of them happening to be the strongest, go figure) then slapping it on this class which has much more freedom than a Warlock/ToB class.

EDIT: Don't use the fact that you only have three disciplines as an excuse. Because its not.

the humanity
2010-04-07, 02:55 PM
maybe letting him be given a 10xCHA mod (max 5)% mischance for weapons to slide through him as if through water as a capstone? that does not work against cold damage? for up to 10 rounds a day?

Innis Cabal
2010-04-07, 03:48 PM
Thats not how critique works.

the humanity
2010-04-07, 03:58 PM
Thats not how critique works.

those who give advice should be willing to flex, though remaining constant on their original points superiority is always good.

DracoDei
2010-04-07, 04:08 PM
Ok, so what I am hearing is that you don't want any more critique on balance, only on flavor?
Sometimes it helps to be extra EXTRA clear on that sort of thing...

the humanity
2010-04-07, 04:12 PM
what he wants is flavorful ways to nerf the guy.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 04:39 PM
You didn't answer why you put in Kaleidescope Dream or Devoted Spirit, in terms of fluff, I can't grasp at all what the three disciplines have to do with one another. In terms of mechanics, all I can see is you grabbed your favorite three disciplines (one of them happening to be the strongest, go figure) then slapping it on this class which has much more freedom than a Warlock/ToB class.

EDIT: Don't use the fact that you only have three disciplines as an excuse. Because its not.

Kaleidoscopic Dream is representative of him pulling his power from the chaotic Maelstrom that surrounds the planes. Since that is the general theme of those maneuvers, with its prismatic strikes and the like.

Devoted Spirit is obvious, he/she is devoted to the Ocean, water itself is often associated with healing, additionally there are chaos themed maneuvers within the Devoted Spirit discipline, additionally I wanted to include a core discipline in the maneuver set, and Devoted Spirit was the only one that fit. Additionally I didn't want to include Diamon Mind or tiger claw, since those maneuver sets have the potential to vastly increase attacks done within a round, which I knew would immediately break the bank on damage, imagine using the maneuver that lets you make infinite attacks in a round as long as you continue to hit with touch attacks, yep that's right, I considered damage being a potential game breaker.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 04:43 PM
what he wants is flavorful ways to nerf the guy.

More or less, that's exactly what i mean.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-07, 04:45 PM
Kaleidoscopic Dream is representative of him pulling his power from the chaotic Maelstrom that surrounds the planes. Since that is the general theme of those maneuvers, with its prismatic strikes and the like.
This relates to the ocean how?


Devoted Spirit is obvious, he/she is devoted to the Ocean, water itself is often associated with healing, additionally there are chaos themed maneuvers within the Devoted Spirit discipline, additionally I wanted to include a core discipline in the maneuver set, and Devoted Spirit was the only one that fit.

So because I'm a swordsage who's dedicated to knowledge and stuff, I should obviously get Devoted Spirit because I worship Boccob and pursue knowledge like a religious fanatic.

Honestly, Diamond Mind fits this class better. That was a horrible excuse :smallannoyed:

Valairn
2010-04-07, 04:52 PM
This relates to the ocean how?

You didn't read the flavor text did you?



So because I'm a swordsage who's dedicated to knowledge and stuff, I should obviously get Devoted Spirit because I worship Boccob and pursue knowledge like a religious fanatic.

Honestly, Diamond Mind fits this class better. That was a horrible excuse :smallannoyed:

No, because your role as a sword sage is not a melee healer. One of the flavor points of the class is that he can heal with his maneuvers, that is Devoted Spirit in a can, the Ocean is a source of life. He personifies the flowing waters of the world and planar chaos of the Maelstrom, and he is devoted to it, like a Crusader is devoted to things.

Also what part of, missionary for the ocean does not strike you as religious in intent?

EDIT: As a comment, I'm really tired of this argument, you clearly don't like this class or me it seems, and want to nitpick everything, without offering any potential solutions, I'm done with responding to your comments.

the humanity
2010-04-07, 05:34 PM
maybe a little more work on this thing, the healing strikes give you much more combat endurance. other than that it's great. I'd like to see some more element themed builds, maybe a Thunder Fist, a Sky Sweeper, and a Burn Witch.

whatever those will do.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 06:00 PM
maybe a little more work on this thing, the healing strikes give you much more combat endurance. other than that it's great. I'd like to see some more element themed builds, maybe a Thunder Fist, a Sky Sweeper, and a Burn Witch.

whatever those will do.

I was thinking about that actually. Would they each use a kind of Maelstrom weapon then?

I generally used Disciplines that were already finished for this class, maybe I could make some Disciplines that cover the theme's I'm trying to cover here.

Hrm.... sounds like an excellent project.

the humanity
2010-04-07, 06:12 PM
I was thinking about that actually. Would they each use a kind of Maelstrom weapon then?

I generally used Disciplines that were already finished for this class, maybe I could make some Disciplines that cover the theme's I'm trying to cover here.

Hrm.... sounds like an excellent project.

they'd use a variation, like an arcane ability, a natural weapon, or something. I think giving each one a type of class would be cool, the air could be a skill monkey rogue type for example, fire could run similar to a spellcaster, all that fun stuff.

I'd like in on this, I got a campaign I could use this for so well.

>>

<<

EPIC TEAM UP!!!

Valairn
2010-04-07, 06:44 PM
Do we want to go the path of making discipline's focused on each class?

the humanity
2010-04-07, 06:54 PM
yeah, and then we can cut that crusader Discipline out so we don't end up with too much cheese.
so far idea-
Tide Walker- fast warrior
Sky Sweeper- hard to hit rogue
Mountain Shield- tough warrior
Burn Witch- blaster type (eldritch mebbe?)

I'll try to make the Burn Witch myself I think, you pick one than we'll bounce them around for a bit.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 07:30 PM
Okay how many discipline's do we want each class to have?

EDIT: I was thinking 3 available discipline's for each. As an additional addendum, the reason this class has such... endurance(Devoted Spirit) is primarily because that's part of the thing about waves crashing on the shore, they just keep coming and coming, until the mountains fall down.

the humanity
2010-04-07, 07:42 PM
the cleric is the sea ;)

retreat to him, and reign terror on the enemy.

3 is good.

which one are you gonna work on next?

Valairn
2010-04-07, 07:45 PM
Well I was thinking about having a combining theme for all of them.

Maybe a discipline they all have access to. I'd kind of like them all to be linked to the Maelstrom as well in some way, so the theme is congruent throughout.

Hrm....

the humanity
2010-04-07, 07:52 PM
ok. maybe have bonuses that will only affect the maelstrom involved? the hard one to fit for that will be the Burn Witch, being an eldritch blaster. maybe a flaming whip thing would suit the theme better.


and what are we gonna call these guys?

Valairn
2010-04-07, 07:57 PM
Tempests seems appropriate. Chaotic expressions of their element. Though honestly the Tide Walker was not meant to represent water as an element, he's literally about the Ocean.

the humanity
2010-04-07, 08:04 PM
Tempests seems appropriate. Chaotic expressions of their element. Though honestly the Tide Walker was not meant to represent water as an element, he's literally about the Ocean.

hmm. so we make it more their manifestations in the real world. ocean, earth, sky, sun.

well, Desert Wind becomes way cool for this Burn Witch I'm making. even if it is a wind thing >_>

Valairn
2010-04-07, 09:44 PM
Instead of Earth I would go with Mountain. And instead of sky I would go with Storms. Something that has a character of its own, rather then just a simple element.

the humanity
2010-04-07, 10:21 PM
yeah, I suppose mountain> dirt.

storms are easier to mess with too.

Valairn
2010-04-07, 10:29 PM
Hrm..... Sun doesn't really seem right either. Its too far away if you know what I mean, I want something that is really... close to home. Fire isn't the easiest to do something like that with though. Desert's and forest fire's.... I can see where they got the idea for Desert Wind now hehe.

the humanity
2010-04-08, 12:10 AM
hmm. forest fires? I'm going desert then.

some flavor will change, probably some abilities too.

Valairn
2010-04-08, 01:47 AM
Don't go out of your way to make something to work with my system if you have a class with a flavor you want to make. If you want to "steal" something, feel free, sharing is fun!

the humanity
2010-04-08, 01:50 AM
"You see her? She can burn you with a thought, and grind you to sand. The bakers boy wouldn't take a no? Burned to a crisp. Her father hurt her mother? Barely survived the heat and sand. Her former paramour... well, we don't talk about that poor fellow."

to some, the hot, dry climate of the deserts are paradise, and of this eclectic bunch, the most fanatic are the Burn Witches, having learned to fuse themselves with sand, fire, and the Maelstrom, Burn Witches use strange magic and skillful combat to overpower those who stand in their way.

Alignment- any Chaotic. to embrace the maelstrom fully, one needs to be free from rules and regulations.
hit die- d6
class skills- balance, concentration, diplomacy, disable device, escape artist, knowledge (planes), intimidate, move silently, tumble, use magic device
skill points- 4+Int mod
skill points at first level- 4x(4+Int mod)
proficiencies- martial weapons, simple weapons
maneuver progression- same as Tide Walker
Desert Wind
_________
_________

Burn Witch
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Maelstrom Blast (1d6)

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Burning Glow

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Heat Affinity 5

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|--

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Solar Push, Maelstrom Blast (2d6)

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|--

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Sandblast, Desert Healing

8th|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6|Heat Affinity 10

9th|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+6|--

10th|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+7|Maelstrom Blast (3d6)

11th|
+8|
+7|
+4|
+7|--

12th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Sandform

13th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Heat Affinity 20

14th|
+10|
+9|
+4|
+9|--

15th|
+11|
+9|
+5|
+9|Maelstrom Blast (4d6)

16th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Improved Solar Push

17th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|--

18th|
+13|
+11|
+6|
+11|Heat Affinity 30

19th|
+14|
+11|
+6|
+11|--

20th|
+15|
+12|
+6|
+12|Sandstorm[/table]

Maelstrom Blast- a Burn Witch can create a ball of blazing hot light that she can throw at any opponent within 30 ft. this ball is considered a ranged touch attack that deals fire damage equal to the Burn Witches Maelstrom Dice. (for example, a 10th level Burn Witch deals 3d6 fire damage). She can use this attack as part of a full round action. you must have line of sight to use this ability.
Burning Glow- a Burn Witch is so in tune with the heat of the desert that she can put up a fiery aura around herself that burns those threatening her. As a full round action, a Burn Witch can deal damage equal to her Maelstrom Dice to each creature within 5 feet of her. (reflex 10+Cha mod+ number of MD) This ability provides no attack of opportunity, and lasts one round. A Burn Witch can use this as a Spellike ability 2x a day. Even when not in use, you can feel the heat the Burn Witch exudes.
Heat Affinity- by becoming the very tempest of the desert, a Burn Witch becomes resistant to it’s most dangerous weapon. At 3rd level, a Burn Witch has resistance to fire 5. at 8th this becomes resistance to fire 10, 13th it becomes 20, 18th it becomes 30.
Solar Push- having learned to harness the fire that burns through her body, a Burn Witch can create a powerful heat wave that scorches opponents as it pushes them back. Once every 1d4 rounds, a Burn Witch can imbue one of her Maelstrom Blasts with a bull rush. This bull rush is rolled as a separate attack. If either attack fails, they are both negated.
Sandblast- by fusing her own body into the maelstrom she controls, a Burn Witch can make her Maelstrom Blast very dangerous. a Burn Witch can add any number of d6 (up to equal to her charisma mod +1) to her maelstrom blast. doing so imbues her blast with sand, and all damage is considered slashing and piercing. by using this ability, the Burn Witch deals 1 con damage for each die added. this damage cannot be reduced or avoided.
Desert Healing- by embracing the warm sand of the desert, a Burn Witch can repair her broken body. by covering herself with sand, a Burn Witch can repair her constitution by infusing the sand into herself. this requires direct contact with the sand and 10 minutes of uninterrupted contact per point healed. if a Burn Witch is interrupted, she does not gain healing.
Sandform- calling upon the fire inside her, the Burn Witch’s skin begins to have a gravelly texture, and sand collects at her feet, falling from her sandlike body. As a swift action, a burn Witch may gain a +10 racial bonus to her natural armor. This ability lasts as long as the Burn Witch allows. For each round it was in existence, the Burn Witch takes 1 point constitution damage. this damage cannot be reduced or avoided.
Improved Solar Push- the Burn Witch may use Solar Push once per round.
Sandstorm- by raising her arms and letting fire and sand flow like water from her fingers, the Burn Witch blows away all opponents in a burst of heat, dust, and chaos. Once per day, a Burn Witch may deal 5d6 piercing and 5d6 fire damage (reflex half) to everyone within 10 feet of her as a move action. All characters who take damage are bull rushed away from the Burn Witch automatically. The Burn Witch takes 1d6 constitution damage every time she uses this ability. this damage cannot be reduced or avoided.

Valairn
2010-04-08, 10:46 AM
Fax's Thread that has all the code table's. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313)

The Tygre
2010-04-08, 10:52 AM
I heard a call for environmental variants on Desert Wind.

Krimm Blackleaf answers. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67570)

Valairn
2010-04-08, 11:08 AM
Ah yes I have read that.

But I'd like to make more specific discipline's that have a kind of actual fighting style associated with them. For instance Ocean Soul (Fax's Discipline) has a key set of maneuvers in it that you charge targets and you leave a water wake behind you that bull rush's enemies. Its really thematic, and I'm going to try and do that with additional discipline's.

EDIT: Also I got some ideas last night for this class to rework some of it, to be more thematic with less dead levels.

EDIT2: I also have an idea where the source of these powers come from. There is an island in the maelstrom that people are drawn to in their dreams, where they learn these powers, but because its in the dreams of the person, they may not remember it.

the humanity
2010-04-08, 12:40 PM
well be sure to explain all the ideas out!

the dream island sounds really cool, if a little on the trippy side.

updated Burn Witch, thanks for the link.

not liking how she looks at the 6-11 level right now, got any ideas on how I could make her more powerful there?

Valairn
2010-04-08, 01:42 PM
Version 2.0 of the Tide Walker is up. That may contain some ideas to increase her power level :D.

I think I really nailed the whole Tidal Force type combat style. And I successfully reduced the nasty first round of combat damage problem.

EDIT: For the burn witch, I honestly recommend allowing her to also deal (slashing or piercing) damage with her maelstrom blast(the blast becomes a sand blast instead of a fire blast) as an opt in. Fire damage is weak in DnD cause so many monsters resist it, so having another type of damage to deal could help her out a lot as far as power level is concerned.

the humanity
2010-04-08, 01:52 PM
ok good idea. I may implement that in a more one time kinda way, when she makes sand, she uses her very flesh and transforms it into sand for all her sand abilities so far.

Valairn
2010-04-08, 01:55 PM
I'd look close at what I did with the Tide Walker too, it might give you some good ideas.

the humanity
2010-04-08, 02:06 PM
well somebody's getting cocky.:smalltongue:

I'm gonna dwell on it a little more, I added sandblast, which I think makes this class far more reckless, but much more useful in a fight.

Valairn
2010-04-08, 02:18 PM
Its more of, since we are trying to build similar themes, it'd make sense if we drew off each others work.

the humanity
2010-04-08, 02:22 PM
I'm kidding, hence the :smalltongue:

what do you think of the flavor of the Burn Witch? what would you change?

Valairn
2010-04-08, 02:26 PM
Hrm... I'd have to give it some thought.

Valairn
2010-04-08, 04:19 PM
Honestly not knowing what your other two disciplines are going to be, gives me pause on saying anything, cause those disciplines could change the function of your class a lot.

the humanity
2010-04-08, 04:29 PM
Honestly not knowing what your other two disciplines are going to be, gives me pause on saying anything, cause those disciplines could change the function of your class a lot.

one will be the maelstrom discipline, the one that all these guys have.

I'm stuck between setting sun and stone dragon for the other, either could work.

Valairn
2010-04-08, 04:31 PM
Yeah how the maelstrom discipline works could change a lot of stuff.

the humanity
2010-04-08, 04:55 PM
well let's work on that before we do anything else then.

Valairn
2010-04-08, 05:12 PM
I'm trying to decide how I want it to work.

Valairn
2010-04-09, 10:43 AM
Made some major balance adjustments, yessss I do listen to my critics, I just wasn't ready to edit numbers yet, I wanted the class fleshed out better first.

Valairn
2010-04-09, 01:51 PM
Do we want to make a new thread for the new classes, more or less I think with the island, the combined themes, and the group discipline we are making a mini-campaign setting.

General idea is, there is an island out there in the Maelstrom, that draws people to it in their dreams. And they dream of a particular type of thing, so like my Tide Walker, dreams of the Ocean, and your Burn Witch dreams of the desert, and when they come back to their bodies, they are filled with power from the dream.

The Maelstrom Discipline I was thinking could be a kind of meta-discipline, kind of like a discipline that lets your other maneuvers really shine, so boosts and strikes which allow your next maneuvers to be more effective, and also effect your maelstrom damage(which is a mechanic that I think should be in all the classes)

For instance:

Maelstrom Strike - Make an attack that deals regular damage, if the attack succeeds roll 1d4, this changes your next martial strike to be an energy type according to the table below. In addition it also generates an additional effect based off the element it changes to.

{table=head]Result | Type | Additional Effect
1 |Acid |Deals 1d4 acid damage per round for 3 rounds
2 |Electricty |Stuns the target for 1 round(Fortitude save negates)
3 |Sonic |Deafens target for 2 rounds
4 |Fire |Deals 2d6 additional fire damage
[/table]
What do you think?

the humanity
2010-04-09, 06:34 PM
that's cool.

I like it a lot. unsure about having 4 threads running around, but they'll be quite useful.

Valairn
2010-04-09, 08:20 PM
It would be just one mega-thread.

the humanity
2010-04-09, 11:12 PM
given that there is no searchbar, it may be simpler with just one.

feel like editing the Burn Witch into the first post?

Mulletmanalive
2010-04-10, 06:20 AM
Worth pointing out that Manoeuvres + Touch attack = Broken.

Still at issue here.

Not even entirely clear why natural armour and being covered in metal is going to be of no protection against churning water. I honestly like the idea, the implementation makes no sense and trying to match powers with something that is only broken because of appauling and inconsistent spell design using Manoeuvres, which while i don't like, i admit are internally consistent, is bound to failure.

Valairn
2010-04-10, 11:43 AM
Would it be acceptable, if the ability was a touch attack when used in normal attacks, but would have to beat AC when using a maneuver?

the humanity
2010-04-10, 10:57 PM
that sounds quite fair to me.

not too complicated, and gives you a great reason to not be using fancy tricks- with warblades, the tendency is to use as much maneuver as you can.

Valairn
2010-04-12, 11:05 AM
I'll be throwing up the mega-thread here sometime in the next week, I imagine the Tide-Walker is going to undergo a 3.0 revision along the way as well.

Valairn
2010-04-17, 06:26 PM
Big post coming soon!