Would you penalize AoO vs VERY fast creatures?

[Melayl]

I was wondering if anyone has a houserule about creatures with very high movement rates gaining a bonus vs attacks of opportunity for moving through threatened areas. More specifically in regard to Charging a creature with reach, or charging past threatened areas to more squishy targets.

How fast would you have to move to impose an AoO penalty? How much would it scale with increased move? Yes, we can get into "ridiculous" speeds (1000+).

[Caphi]

Swap a feat for Mobility and call it good?

[Lord Vukodlak]

A faster creature wouldn't by any harder as long as you see it coming, If they were going one hundred miles per hour swinging would be unnecessary simply hold your weapon outward and let them slam into it.

Though I may apply a bonus to trip checks.

Of course anything that can move that fast should simply be able to go AROUND the enemy.

[absolmorph]

A faster creature wouldn't by any harder as long as you see it coming, If they were going one hundred miles per hour swinging would be unnecessary simply hold your weapon outward and let them slam into it.

Though I may apply a bonus to trip checks.

Of course anything that can move that fast should simply be able to go AROUND the enemy.
When you're walking at 100 ft/round (11 MPH), or running at 400 ft/round (45 MPH), it might not be that easy to turn...

[Melayl]

A faster creature wouldn't by any harder as long as you see it coming, If they were going one hundred miles per hour swinging would be unnecessary simply hold your weapon outward and let them slam into it. That might apply if they're travelling a long distance (i.e >100') to reach you. But if they start off 20' away and are suddenly travelling 45 MPH (400'/round, as absolmorph so kindly calculated), your reaction time will likely be insufficient. Unless you have a lance prepared to meet a charge, and an action readied to do it... It would be even more difficult to react to someone travelling 90+ MPH (800'/round).

[Ashiel]

No. I wouldn't give a penalty. If I was, I'd give bonuses to tripping them too, on the grounds that they're moving so fast it's hard to react; just to keep it balanced. But no, I personally, would not grant something a boon for a boon (they're already fast, so why keep pumping them up?).

That being said; have you considered that in a short burst they might not be able to reach full-speed? Acceleration vs top speed for instance? Or maybe that their increased surprise or speed is offset by the fact it also gives them less time to prepare for a counter-attack? The speed that someone can swing a weapon or move the tip of a spear is pretty fast too; even if the average warrior doesn't move very fast across land.

Additionally, if their reflexes are so insanely good that they can avoid it more easily, that's reflected by a high Dexterity score and is already factored into their armor class, and thus would be excessively redundant.

Food for thought.

[Worira]

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/worira/AmazingSpiderman071-19.jpg

No I would not.

[Binks]

That might apply if they're travelling a long distance (i.e >100') to reach you. But if they start off 20' away and are suddenly travelling 45 MPH (400'/round, as absolmorph so kindly calculated), your reaction time will likely be insufficient. Unless you have a lance prepared to meet a charge, and an action readied to do it... It would be even more difficult to react to someone travelling 90+ MPH (800'/round).

90 mph is 132 ft/s. Covering 20ft at that speed takes .15s, 151ms. That's well within the range of human reaction times, particularly if you expect them to move towards you and you've got good reflexes. 45 mph is a meer 66 ft/s, .3s to react, above the medium of human reaction times. And that's for an average non-fighter human, an adventurer should have better reactions than the average person.

I wouldn't penalize at <= 90mph because it's within the realm of human reaction times even if they go from 0 to their max speed instantly. Beyond 90 mph...well I'd be suspicious of anyone who got their character over 90mph as their likely rule-abusing somehow, but I still wouldn't assign any penalty as they're probably not going to go from 0 to max instantly but rather over a short period of time giving even more reaction time.

So no, I wouldn't give a penalty, because I would be very unlikely to allow that sort of speed in the first place and even if I did it's entirely possible to react to a 90mph object in 20ft (your reaction is just going to be very simple, sticking your arm or leg out rather than punching, but that'll be just as effective at that speed).

[ForzaFiori]

I don't see why there should be a penalty. It's proven in everyday life that humans can react to things going upwards of 100 mph in a short amount of time, if they expect it and are watching for it.

IE: baseball. A very tiny ball, travelling 100 mph (in MLB) at a person, and they still hit it. Granted, not all the time, but they swing at the right time. The missing is more due to its small size than its speed (unless its a change-up, but you can't slow down in a charge, it defeats the whole purpose). Even in the NCAA or HSL, pitchers sometimes break 90 mph, and there are people out there with a .400 batting average. If you made the ball human sized, I'd bet that average would skyrocket.

Since I would hope that any adventurer worth their salt would have a reaction time at least on par with a high school baseball player, I don't see why a person moving at 90 mph would be a problem, and if a PC manages to get much faster than that, they're using uber cheese that most likely shouldn't be allowed.

[absolmorph]

That might apply if they're travelling a long distance (i.e >100') to reach you. But if they start off 20' away and are suddenly travelling 45 MPH (400'/round, as absolmorph so kindly calculated), your reaction time will likely be insufficient. Unless you have a lance prepared to meet a charge, and an action readied to do it... It would be even more difficult to react to someone travelling 90+ MPH (800'/round).
I would like to point out that I was calculating using the absolute fastest a human character can get (I haven't figured it out for other classes)- Monk 18/Barbarian 1.
That puts their base land speed at 100', and 400'/round was them running.
If they're in combat and attacking, the fastest they'd get is 200'/round (~22 MPH) on a charge.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone else realized that the base speed for a monk can get ridiculous? Without the alignment change in the build I put earlier (L_ to N_ at level 18), they move at 90'/round, or 15'/second. That's about 10 MPH without moving fast.
Personally, I've always thought of the base speed as walking, which makes monks crazy fast walkers. Let alone running...

[Curmudgeon]

Personally, I've always thought of the base speed as walking, which makes monks crazy fast walkers. Let alone running...
No, the base speed is hustling.
Hustle

A hustle is a jog at about 6 miles per hour for an unencumbered human. A character moving his or her speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action is hustling when he or she moves.

[hamishspence]

The base speed is always before modifications for hustling.

A character with a 30ft per round base speed walks at 30 ft per round, and hustles at 60 ft per round.

So if a monk has a 90 ft per round base speed, then they have a 180 ft per round hustle speed.

Though if they are doing a standard action in the same round, then they might be hustling, as mentioned.

But not otherwise.

[Heliomance]

There really should be a penalty to hit a fast moving creature, especially with ranged attacks, and especially if the target is moving in anything other than a straight line. No matter how good you are, hitting a moving target is harder than hitting a stationary target, and hitting an unpredictably moving target is nigh-on impossible except by sheer luck.

[unre9istered]

There really should be a penalty to hit a fast moving creature, especially with ranged attacks, and especially if the target is moving in anything other than a straight line. No matter how good you are, hitting a moving target is harder than hitting a stationary target, and hitting an unpredictably moving target is nigh-on impossible except by sheer luck.

That's what the Dex mod in your AC is supposed to represent.

[The Glyphstone]

Unless I missed a decimal point, 90mph equates to a speed of 132ft./sec, or 792 ft./6-second move action. It's going to take some serious optimization to get a speed of 790+ft.

[hamishspence]

Or a very fast moving mount.

The Run feat can be used for flying or swimming creatures- if they move in a straight line.

[monkey3]

Why does this fast creature not have tumble?

By the way, I hate that tumble is not an opposed rule, so I house-ruled it in my world. Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.

It turns out to be an opposed roll where the tumbler has a +5 advantage if he picked max tumble ranks and is in all ways equal to the tumblee.

[Vorpalbob]

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/worira/AmazingSpiderman071-19.jpg

No I would not.

Seeing as we are getting into rediculous speeds, how would you rule someone doing what mr. speedy here is doing?

(also, what is that guy's name?)

[El Dorado]

Quicksilver

[Gametime]

Iron Heroes has the rule that you only provoke attacks of opportunity for moving more than one-quarter your speed into threatened areas.

For those of you who argue that it shouldn't be any harder to hit a faster creature, there is a difference between "possible to hit" and "exactly as easy to hit." A slowly moving object, all things considered, is easier to hit than a quickly moving one.

Now, I wouldn't recommend actually instead a bonus to defend (or penalty to attacks against) for fast creatures, because it's largely unnecessary bookkeeping, but it's a bit silly to say that speed has nothing to do with hitting someone.

[ken-do-nim]

Timely thread, I was just working on this very rule last night, albeit for 1E. I wouldn't apply a penalty if you can see the guy coming as others have said, but there are plenty of times when that is not the case. Also, it applies for retreats. If a monk is facing off with your character and decides to beat a speedy retreat, your character may not be able to hit him effectively because the monk heads off so fast. In 1E I have access to weapon length and weapon speed and I came up with a very effective rule for this situation, but in 3.5 this would be harder.

My philosophy on 3.5 is to just play it as written, because it doesn't give you the tools that 1E does to be more simulationist.

[Gorilla2038]

Why does this fast creature not have tumble?

By the way, I hate that tumble is not an opposed rule, so I house-ruled it in my world. Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.

It turns out to be an opposed roll where the tumbler has a +5 advantage if he picked max tumble ranks and is in all ways equal to the tumblee.

Off-topic, but perhaps you should just take the DC and increase it? Personally, DC15+opponent BAB seems to work quite well.

on topic, isnt that speed suppposed to represent the highest speed a person is moving and fully able to defend him/her-self?

[Darklord Xavez]

Well, fast creatures tend to have high Dexterity, and if they're taking a move action, they're not flat-footed, so (jots down numbers, does some math, takes bit of lemon cookie) I would apply double their dexterity modifier or give them +4 AC (whichever is higher) if they have already moved at least their speed this round.
-Xavez

[Heliomance]

That's what the Dex mod in your AC is supposed to represent.

Nope, your dex mod represents how good you are at dodging attacks. Otherwise, speed would be based on dex, and it isn't.

[Darklord Xavez]

Just the +4 AC it is then.
-Xavez

[ericgrau]

A 400' speed is 45 mph is only about 10 squares per second. 0.1 seconds is enough time to react to something, and depending on distance you may have more time than that. So for any practical speed I'd say no. For obscene speeds ok sure. I'd say have the attacker make a reflex save with a DC dependent on speed. Give the defender bonus AC based on how fast he is. Remember a 100' speed is a little over 10mph and 1 square per ~0.3 seconds, so the increase in save DC and AC should be a very small portion of the movement speed. I would guess DC 10 reflex starting at a 600' speed, +1 to save and AC per additional 200'.

[Melayl]

Wow. I didn't expect this many responses. It seems the general consensus is "No". I guess I'll go with that.

Although, I might explore Xavez's and ericgrau's suggestions a bit more.

Thanks for the feedback, everybody.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, it may be worthwhile to overall just grant creatures with immense speeds bonus to AC; 1000'/round is a lot. The problem is, this makes magicians' AC even easier to scale while warriors are stuck with the short end of the stick AGAIN. So it may be realistic, but it doesn't help.

[randomhero00]

Its realistic, but AoOs have never been realistic in the first place. So probably not. That's just how the game works. Unless you want to homebrew new rules for rounds, relative time, AoOs, and half the combat system. I learned a long time ago trying to apply real life logic to DnD is a dead end street.

[Otodetu]

Yes. Don't apply logic, just run with it, i am more surprised at how you would manage to gain a base speed of 1000ft. in a normal game.

[ken-do-nim]

Yes. Don't apply logic, just run with it, i am more surprised at how you would manage to gain a base speed of 1000ft. in a normal game.

This became a big argument at a game I was in when a wind walk spell was involved during play of Lord of the Iron Fortress.

Anyways, I think I've got it. If you can see the guy coming, then you basically ready an action and attack him as he goes by, no penalty. If your attack as he passes by is simply an attack of opportunity, then you can award a penalty to the attack roll based on high movement rate (I'd still reduce or negate it if the attack of opportunity is being taken with a reach weapon).

[Mauther]

Honestly, it may be worthwhile to overall just grant creatures with immense speeds bonus to AC; 1000'/round is a lot. The problem is, this makes magicians' AC even easier to scale while warriors are stuck with the short end of the stick AGAIN. So it may be realistic, but it doesn't help.

Whic is why you have SpeedBumpinator, a CR 15 Inevitable that enforces the speed limit laws of the multiverse and restricts all PCs to movement 50' or less.

[Eldariel]

Whic is why you have SpeedBumpinator, a CR 15 Inevitable that enforces the speed limit laws of the multiverse and restricts all PCs to movement 50' or less.

...but every damn PC exceeds 50'/round movement around level 10 when Haste becomes affordable...or Fly (and its 60')

[Mauther]

Nope, your dex mod represents how good you are at dodging attacks. Otherwise, speed would be based on dex, and it isn't.

You could infer the relationship off of the Fleet of Foot and Sprinter feats (Dex 15).

[Mauther]

...but every damn PC exceeds 50'/round movement around level 10 when Haste becomes affordable...or Fly (and its 60')

I meant 50' base. And the bumpinators are ground bound, so as long as flight is kept above 10' altitude your good. Besides their only abilities are Slow and Web. A whole nother branch of Inevitables handle flying.