Ihala
2010-04-07, 01:06 AM
I am sure most of you know about E6 and know at least a little about it, so I will not spend a paragraph explaining it. For those of you not in the know, I direct you to Google.
I intend on creating a game using the basics of the E6 idea, with a couple of notable alterations. One I plan to use what I call a staggered gestalt. Up to level 6 everything would be done identical to normal D&D. However at level 6 you stop gaining character levels. Instead, when you would reach level 7, at 21,000 experience, you gain a level in a new class as a gestalt, and gain the benefits of either being a full six levels in your class or 5/1, whichever is more beneficial. All classes are considered gestalted together and so if you have one level 6 class and 5 level one classes, the 5 level one classes will only count for level one.
For example a level 6 wizard who at 21000 experience became a level 6 wizard/1 fighter would gain 6 hit points (max hit points and times 4 skill points are counted retroactively for simplicity and fairness sake), Armor and weapons proficiency, and 2 to his fortitude save (this would be 1, because at level 5 wizard he only gains 1 fortitude, so he is going from 2 to 1+2=3, but I use fractional bonuses, so instead the fighter level adds 2.5 and the wizard level will add 5/3). His base attack would stay the same, as well as his will and reflex saves. If at 8th level he takes a level in rogue, he will take the greater benefits of 1 level in fighter, wizard or rouge at level one, and for his other 5 levels use wizard stats. This is to say that if, for example, we have a level 6 wizard/1 fighter/1 ranger/1 paladin/1 (ex)barbarian, the base attack would be 3.5 rounded down to 3. If he were to instead be a level 6 wizard/4 fighter, he would have a base attack of 5 (4 for fighter and 1 for wizard).
For characters at level 6 or below this does not apply. A level 3 wizard/3 rogue is treated normally. In such a case your highest level class plus your next highest and so on will be added together to define your "core" 6 level class, with the primary class (defined later) taking the highest level slots (explained in the next paragraph).
So if this character were to become a 3 wizard/3 rogue/2 fighter, with wizard as his primary class) he would use the base attack of a fighter for his first two levels, the base attack of a rouge for level 3, and the attack bonus of a wizard for levels 4-6. This is because wizard is his primary class and takes up higher "level slots" than rogue. Hit points would be similar, 10+d10+d6+3d4. Skill points would remain the same, 3rd level rouge (multiply by 4 for level one) +3 levels of wizard, with fighter class skills. Some sort of skill retraining will be allowed for this purpose.
You may be asking what I mean by primary class. One of the beautifully nostalgic things about 6E for us 1st and 2nd edition players is that only fighter types get multiple attacks per round. I want to keep it this way. Another factor is V complains that she spent decades learning the arcane ways, but Elan can learn it instantly by gaining a level, it is much easier to be a fighter, go kill some monsters, and instantly gain arcane power. In the time it takes to learn your first level of wizard, you could kill monsters and be a 10th level wizard, with a level in fighter to boot.
So now, whatever your very first level is, is your primary class. Only your primary class may exceed level 4 (so you may only have 3rd level spells in your primary class as well). In addition your secondary class is whatever class, other than your primary class first reaches level 4, if any. Thereafter no other class, but your primary class (which may be lower level than your secondary) may be higher than three. Additionally, you may only have two classes, other than your primary class at level 3 or higher. Thus all limits taken into account a character may have one class at level 6 (first class), one at 4, one at 3, and any number at 2. This may seem convoluted and clunky just to preserve a small piece of nostalgia. You're right, it is. You might also point at that I only need one restriction for classes above 4, the secondary and tertiary class are not needed for the nostalgic purpose. Again you would be right.
Additionally, rather than spending experience on these gestalt levels, one can spend 5000 experience for a free feat, as intended by E6. The normal feats will be supplemented with many new ones designed specifically for the concept of an E6 game, most notably for the magic system. Also an ability increase can be purchased for 8000 experience in the form of an inherent bonus (all inherent bonuses stack, to a maximum of +5; wishes may be gained over time and affect the same score. As an aside wish now costs 10,000 experience to cast.)
Before I can discuss the feats, I must first speak about the magic system, or at least a small part of it. All classes will cast spontaneously and will use a mana system similar to, but not exactly the same as, the WotC psionics system. Mana is an arbitrary number from a table, based on class and level, plus 1/2 caster level*Key Ability Modifier. To cast a spell a caster must have a key ability of 5+2*spell level. Magic item bonuses to not count; wishes and tomes do. Thus dimwit magic users of first edition return, and the high level magic users who lack the brains to unlock high level magic also return. In a normal 20 level game a wizard with a starting 18 intelligence can, at level 20, get the 23 intellgence required to cast 9th level spells.
That said, now the feats I wish feedback on can be discussed, in a general way. Firstly the prerequisites for all feats discussed here will require a caster level of 6 in the class that the feat applies to. This means that only a character's primary class can benefit from the feat. The feats aim at letting a level 6 character cast level 20 magic, by taking feats. Firstly a opening feat, with no immediate benefit, is required to take any other feats mentioned here. What this does is takes the characters feat for gaining level 6 away (effectively), meaning that all other feats in this "tree" must be earned by spending 5000 experience points each.
The first feat will increase the amount of mana a character can spend on a spell (called mana channeling) by 2 points. As with psionics a caster is limited to his level in mana. So a level 6 wizard casting a level 2 spell, costing 3 mana, use metamagic feats worth a total of +3 mana on it. With this feat it would increase to +5, thus he could empower it for example, using 7 mana. This feat in no way grants higher caster level or additional mana. It may be taken repeatedly.
(Should it only increase it by 1 mana?)
The second feat increases the caster level of a character by one for purposes of spell effects. It does not increase the amount of mana he may use in a spell nor the level of spells he may cast. This feat may be taken multiple times.
The third feat increases your caster level by 1 for the purpose of what level spells you may cast. Thus for level 9 spells a 6th level sorcerer would have to take this feat 12 times. Also to cast a spell requires that your effective caster level (controlled by the second feat) be at least equal to the level normally required to cast the spell. So the sorcerer would then need 12 of this feat and 12 of the second. Also a 9th level spell costs 17 mana. The sorcerer would need 6 of the first feat (+12 channeling) to be able to cast a ninth level spell. So he would need to invest 30*5000=150000 experience to cast 9th level spells. And note he still has the mana total of a level 6 sorcerer.
The fourth feat addresses a new rule. Spells that are above mortal level (4+) are draining on the body and mind. When casting a spell above 3rd level a spell deals 1d6/level above 3rd damage to the caster (no save). Additionally he must make a will save against his own DC (10+spell level+ability modifier) or suffer 1 point of ability damage to his casting ability per die of damage he took. This feat raises the level of spell he may safely cast by one. So with 6 of this feat our sorcerer may cast his 9th level spells with impunity.
A fifth feat increases the characters mana reserve by 6 points and may be taken multiple times.
The above means that a wizard who wants earth shattering, ninth level magic can conceivably gain it, but let's look at what it takes to have casting power on par with a 20th level wizard. Firstly, a normla 20th level wizard requires 190,000 experience. Our E6 wizard needs 15,000 for level 6. Then he needs 7 of the first feat to be able to channel 20 mana per spell. Next he needs 14 of the second feat and 11 of the third. Then he will need 6 of the fourth feat because even with his massive power, he still only has 6d4 hit points, the 6d6 backlash could be fatal. This comes to 38 feats, or 190,000 experience. Also assuming he began with an 18 intelligence and increased it at 4th, he has only a 19 intelligence, 4 points lacking for 9th level magic. So to increase it is 4*8000=32000 more experience. So the total needed is 15000+190000+32000=237000 experience points; enough to be a 22nd level wizard. Not to mention he still only has 25+(3*Int Mod) mana to use and is still squishy with 6 four sided hit dice. Another factor to consider is that while he needs as much experience as a level 22 character, he will be gaining much fewer experience points in an encounter, because he and his allies will be less capable than a party of non E6 adventurers.
My next idea for the game involves changing how magic works and making divine and arcane magic actually different. Because all classes are spontaneous now, divine casters with their complete spell list have a huge advantage.
However clerics and druids don't cast spells, they pray for miracles, they pray for beings of great power to cast spells for them and leave the direction up to them. But what happens when their prayers fall on deaf ears, or, worse their actions are not supported by their deity? Divine classes (clerics, druids and paladins; rangers use a unique sort of magic, like bards. It is arcane, but does not follow the same rules wizards and sorcerers must follow) have a new attribute, piety, which represents their standing with their deity. It is tracked similar to experience, and has different levels, but can go up or down, and even be negative (resulting in negative levels). Other classes may optionally track piety and it can be beneficial if positive (Perseus received much divine help, especially from Athena) or detrimental if negative (Odysseus was sent up and down the Mediterranean by Poseidon). Piety would be tracked in regards to the values of the Olympians as a whole or according to the values of a single patron deity; tracking a separate score for each deity would be too much hassle, even for me who has somewhat successfully ran Bruce Galloway's Fantasy Wargaming and rated-PG-FATAL.
I have not yet set up a mechanic for this "appeal" to a deity, but I think it should be some fixed DC, such as 10, with modifiers to the rolls such as add level, add piety (positive or negative), subtract spell level, add/subtract special circumstances (sacrificed a bull for a commune spell, sacrifice experience/piety for the spell, angered the deity recently, etc.). Though they are not the ones casting the spell, they still expend mana if the appeal succeeds. This mana is a concrete representation of the normally abstract relationship between the deity and the power he gains from worship.
As far as wizards and sorcerers are concerned, making them both spontaneous gives a huge advantage to the wizard, even if the sorcerer has 150% the mana of the wizard. However spells available to scribe into a spellbook are scarce in this world and, additionally, a wizard no longer gets 2 free spells of his choice per level, but instead only gains one random spell of a level he can cast (he may choose the level). At first level a wizard begins with read magic, 5+int modifier of random 0 level spells and 3 random first level spells, one "attack", one "defensive", one "utility" and one first level spell of the wizard's choice, his thesis upon graduating his apprenticeship. Magic scrolls are scarce, as are teachers, if you want to use magic but aren't lucky enough to be born with it, you have to take what you can get. Note that this means the wizard, limited to level 6, will need to find a physical copy of 4th+ level spells to cast them. Independent research takes months and can only be done up to 3rd level magics. Additionally sorcerers get one additional spell known of each spell level, generated randomly. Their normal spells known are selected as usual.
Mana is not gained by sleeping, but rather through magical and religious ceremony. Clerics, paladins and druids pray or enact religious rites, Wizards study and recite magical formulas, sorcerers may do any of the above or even engage in wild dance. Each method grants magical power in it's own way. Each method will grant a point of mana over a period of time (usually measured in minutes), up to your normal operating level of mana (comparable to spells per day). However, unlike spells per day, a magic user may choose to exceed his normal allowed mana, by up to double. Every point of mana gained over the normal limit takes twice as long as normal. Additionally a magic user running hot like this is prone to losing some of his stored magicaly energy without casting a spell, and it can even be dangerous (looking for a mechanic for this still).
An example: A wizard can study and gain 1 point of mana for every 12 minutes of study. A level 1 wizard, with no bonus mana for intelligence, needs only 24 minutes with his book to refresh his spells. With an hour and 12 minutes he can double his mana to 4. Much quicker than needing 8 hours to regain even a single spell. However consider a 20th level wizard with a 23 intelligence . He has 435 mana. If he were to blow it all it would take him 87 hours of study to refresh his mana reserves. And note that this is intense study. He still requires food, drink, sleep and must answer the call of nature, not to mention the mental fatigue from pouring over the equivalent of quantum physics and 9 dimensional equations. To replenish his reserves fully would take at least 5 days.
My third part of the post has to do with the setting. I intend to run a heroic Greek game, so that the PCs might step into the shoes of Perseus, Jason, or Leonidas. So I ask you for any ideas or information you might have on ancient Greece and their neighbors.
Everything I have said one my first two points is changeable if anyone has a better idea, which for some of it, I am sure there is some blatantly obvious better way of doing it that I can't see. I am well aware that it is needlessly complicated, but I like it that way. if you have a less complicated suggestion, please, by all means share it. Simple is better than complex, but I want it to be able to do what I want.
(Previewing this, I have a feeling that it will be tl;dr...)
I intend on creating a game using the basics of the E6 idea, with a couple of notable alterations. One I plan to use what I call a staggered gestalt. Up to level 6 everything would be done identical to normal D&D. However at level 6 you stop gaining character levels. Instead, when you would reach level 7, at 21,000 experience, you gain a level in a new class as a gestalt, and gain the benefits of either being a full six levels in your class or 5/1, whichever is more beneficial. All classes are considered gestalted together and so if you have one level 6 class and 5 level one classes, the 5 level one classes will only count for level one.
For example a level 6 wizard who at 21000 experience became a level 6 wizard/1 fighter would gain 6 hit points (max hit points and times 4 skill points are counted retroactively for simplicity and fairness sake), Armor and weapons proficiency, and 2 to his fortitude save (this would be 1, because at level 5 wizard he only gains 1 fortitude, so he is going from 2 to 1+2=3, but I use fractional bonuses, so instead the fighter level adds 2.5 and the wizard level will add 5/3). His base attack would stay the same, as well as his will and reflex saves. If at 8th level he takes a level in rogue, he will take the greater benefits of 1 level in fighter, wizard or rouge at level one, and for his other 5 levels use wizard stats. This is to say that if, for example, we have a level 6 wizard/1 fighter/1 ranger/1 paladin/1 (ex)barbarian, the base attack would be 3.5 rounded down to 3. If he were to instead be a level 6 wizard/4 fighter, he would have a base attack of 5 (4 for fighter and 1 for wizard).
For characters at level 6 or below this does not apply. A level 3 wizard/3 rogue is treated normally. In such a case your highest level class plus your next highest and so on will be added together to define your "core" 6 level class, with the primary class (defined later) taking the highest level slots (explained in the next paragraph).
So if this character were to become a 3 wizard/3 rogue/2 fighter, with wizard as his primary class) he would use the base attack of a fighter for his first two levels, the base attack of a rouge for level 3, and the attack bonus of a wizard for levels 4-6. This is because wizard is his primary class and takes up higher "level slots" than rogue. Hit points would be similar, 10+d10+d6+3d4. Skill points would remain the same, 3rd level rouge (multiply by 4 for level one) +3 levels of wizard, with fighter class skills. Some sort of skill retraining will be allowed for this purpose.
You may be asking what I mean by primary class. One of the beautifully nostalgic things about 6E for us 1st and 2nd edition players is that only fighter types get multiple attacks per round. I want to keep it this way. Another factor is V complains that she spent decades learning the arcane ways, but Elan can learn it instantly by gaining a level, it is much easier to be a fighter, go kill some monsters, and instantly gain arcane power. In the time it takes to learn your first level of wizard, you could kill monsters and be a 10th level wizard, with a level in fighter to boot.
So now, whatever your very first level is, is your primary class. Only your primary class may exceed level 4 (so you may only have 3rd level spells in your primary class as well). In addition your secondary class is whatever class, other than your primary class first reaches level 4, if any. Thereafter no other class, but your primary class (which may be lower level than your secondary) may be higher than three. Additionally, you may only have two classes, other than your primary class at level 3 or higher. Thus all limits taken into account a character may have one class at level 6 (first class), one at 4, one at 3, and any number at 2. This may seem convoluted and clunky just to preserve a small piece of nostalgia. You're right, it is. You might also point at that I only need one restriction for classes above 4, the secondary and tertiary class are not needed for the nostalgic purpose. Again you would be right.
Additionally, rather than spending experience on these gestalt levels, one can spend 5000 experience for a free feat, as intended by E6. The normal feats will be supplemented with many new ones designed specifically for the concept of an E6 game, most notably for the magic system. Also an ability increase can be purchased for 8000 experience in the form of an inherent bonus (all inherent bonuses stack, to a maximum of +5; wishes may be gained over time and affect the same score. As an aside wish now costs 10,000 experience to cast.)
Before I can discuss the feats, I must first speak about the magic system, or at least a small part of it. All classes will cast spontaneously and will use a mana system similar to, but not exactly the same as, the WotC psionics system. Mana is an arbitrary number from a table, based on class and level, plus 1/2 caster level*Key Ability Modifier. To cast a spell a caster must have a key ability of 5+2*spell level. Magic item bonuses to not count; wishes and tomes do. Thus dimwit magic users of first edition return, and the high level magic users who lack the brains to unlock high level magic also return. In a normal 20 level game a wizard with a starting 18 intelligence can, at level 20, get the 23 intellgence required to cast 9th level spells.
That said, now the feats I wish feedback on can be discussed, in a general way. Firstly the prerequisites for all feats discussed here will require a caster level of 6 in the class that the feat applies to. This means that only a character's primary class can benefit from the feat. The feats aim at letting a level 6 character cast level 20 magic, by taking feats. Firstly a opening feat, with no immediate benefit, is required to take any other feats mentioned here. What this does is takes the characters feat for gaining level 6 away (effectively), meaning that all other feats in this "tree" must be earned by spending 5000 experience points each.
The first feat will increase the amount of mana a character can spend on a spell (called mana channeling) by 2 points. As with psionics a caster is limited to his level in mana. So a level 6 wizard casting a level 2 spell, costing 3 mana, use metamagic feats worth a total of +3 mana on it. With this feat it would increase to +5, thus he could empower it for example, using 7 mana. This feat in no way grants higher caster level or additional mana. It may be taken repeatedly.
(Should it only increase it by 1 mana?)
The second feat increases the caster level of a character by one for purposes of spell effects. It does not increase the amount of mana he may use in a spell nor the level of spells he may cast. This feat may be taken multiple times.
The third feat increases your caster level by 1 for the purpose of what level spells you may cast. Thus for level 9 spells a 6th level sorcerer would have to take this feat 12 times. Also to cast a spell requires that your effective caster level (controlled by the second feat) be at least equal to the level normally required to cast the spell. So the sorcerer would then need 12 of this feat and 12 of the second. Also a 9th level spell costs 17 mana. The sorcerer would need 6 of the first feat (+12 channeling) to be able to cast a ninth level spell. So he would need to invest 30*5000=150000 experience to cast 9th level spells. And note he still has the mana total of a level 6 sorcerer.
The fourth feat addresses a new rule. Spells that are above mortal level (4+) are draining on the body and mind. When casting a spell above 3rd level a spell deals 1d6/level above 3rd damage to the caster (no save). Additionally he must make a will save against his own DC (10+spell level+ability modifier) or suffer 1 point of ability damage to his casting ability per die of damage he took. This feat raises the level of spell he may safely cast by one. So with 6 of this feat our sorcerer may cast his 9th level spells with impunity.
A fifth feat increases the characters mana reserve by 6 points and may be taken multiple times.
The above means that a wizard who wants earth shattering, ninth level magic can conceivably gain it, but let's look at what it takes to have casting power on par with a 20th level wizard. Firstly, a normla 20th level wizard requires 190,000 experience. Our E6 wizard needs 15,000 for level 6. Then he needs 7 of the first feat to be able to channel 20 mana per spell. Next he needs 14 of the second feat and 11 of the third. Then he will need 6 of the fourth feat because even with his massive power, he still only has 6d4 hit points, the 6d6 backlash could be fatal. This comes to 38 feats, or 190,000 experience. Also assuming he began with an 18 intelligence and increased it at 4th, he has only a 19 intelligence, 4 points lacking for 9th level magic. So to increase it is 4*8000=32000 more experience. So the total needed is 15000+190000+32000=237000 experience points; enough to be a 22nd level wizard. Not to mention he still only has 25+(3*Int Mod) mana to use and is still squishy with 6 four sided hit dice. Another factor to consider is that while he needs as much experience as a level 22 character, he will be gaining much fewer experience points in an encounter, because he and his allies will be less capable than a party of non E6 adventurers.
My next idea for the game involves changing how magic works and making divine and arcane magic actually different. Because all classes are spontaneous now, divine casters with their complete spell list have a huge advantage.
However clerics and druids don't cast spells, they pray for miracles, they pray for beings of great power to cast spells for them and leave the direction up to them. But what happens when their prayers fall on deaf ears, or, worse their actions are not supported by their deity? Divine classes (clerics, druids and paladins; rangers use a unique sort of magic, like bards. It is arcane, but does not follow the same rules wizards and sorcerers must follow) have a new attribute, piety, which represents their standing with their deity. It is tracked similar to experience, and has different levels, but can go up or down, and even be negative (resulting in negative levels). Other classes may optionally track piety and it can be beneficial if positive (Perseus received much divine help, especially from Athena) or detrimental if negative (Odysseus was sent up and down the Mediterranean by Poseidon). Piety would be tracked in regards to the values of the Olympians as a whole or according to the values of a single patron deity; tracking a separate score for each deity would be too much hassle, even for me who has somewhat successfully ran Bruce Galloway's Fantasy Wargaming and rated-PG-FATAL.
I have not yet set up a mechanic for this "appeal" to a deity, but I think it should be some fixed DC, such as 10, with modifiers to the rolls such as add level, add piety (positive or negative), subtract spell level, add/subtract special circumstances (sacrificed a bull for a commune spell, sacrifice experience/piety for the spell, angered the deity recently, etc.). Though they are not the ones casting the spell, they still expend mana if the appeal succeeds. This mana is a concrete representation of the normally abstract relationship between the deity and the power he gains from worship.
As far as wizards and sorcerers are concerned, making them both spontaneous gives a huge advantage to the wizard, even if the sorcerer has 150% the mana of the wizard. However spells available to scribe into a spellbook are scarce in this world and, additionally, a wizard no longer gets 2 free spells of his choice per level, but instead only gains one random spell of a level he can cast (he may choose the level). At first level a wizard begins with read magic, 5+int modifier of random 0 level spells and 3 random first level spells, one "attack", one "defensive", one "utility" and one first level spell of the wizard's choice, his thesis upon graduating his apprenticeship. Magic scrolls are scarce, as are teachers, if you want to use magic but aren't lucky enough to be born with it, you have to take what you can get. Note that this means the wizard, limited to level 6, will need to find a physical copy of 4th+ level spells to cast them. Independent research takes months and can only be done up to 3rd level magics. Additionally sorcerers get one additional spell known of each spell level, generated randomly. Their normal spells known are selected as usual.
Mana is not gained by sleeping, but rather through magical and religious ceremony. Clerics, paladins and druids pray or enact religious rites, Wizards study and recite magical formulas, sorcerers may do any of the above or even engage in wild dance. Each method grants magical power in it's own way. Each method will grant a point of mana over a period of time (usually measured in minutes), up to your normal operating level of mana (comparable to spells per day). However, unlike spells per day, a magic user may choose to exceed his normal allowed mana, by up to double. Every point of mana gained over the normal limit takes twice as long as normal. Additionally a magic user running hot like this is prone to losing some of his stored magicaly energy without casting a spell, and it can even be dangerous (looking for a mechanic for this still).
An example: A wizard can study and gain 1 point of mana for every 12 minutes of study. A level 1 wizard, with no bonus mana for intelligence, needs only 24 minutes with his book to refresh his spells. With an hour and 12 minutes he can double his mana to 4. Much quicker than needing 8 hours to regain even a single spell. However consider a 20th level wizard with a 23 intelligence . He has 435 mana. If he were to blow it all it would take him 87 hours of study to refresh his mana reserves. And note that this is intense study. He still requires food, drink, sleep and must answer the call of nature, not to mention the mental fatigue from pouring over the equivalent of quantum physics and 9 dimensional equations. To replenish his reserves fully would take at least 5 days.
My third part of the post has to do with the setting. I intend to run a heroic Greek game, so that the PCs might step into the shoes of Perseus, Jason, or Leonidas. So I ask you for any ideas or information you might have on ancient Greece and their neighbors.
Everything I have said one my first two points is changeable if anyone has a better idea, which for some of it, I am sure there is some blatantly obvious better way of doing it that I can't see. I am well aware that it is needlessly complicated, but I like it that way. if you have a less complicated suggestion, please, by all means share it. Simple is better than complex, but I want it to be able to do what I want.
(Previewing this, I have a feeling that it will be tl;dr...)