Hypothetical Challenge: Killing A Deity With A Level 1 Commoner

[Lysander]

Hypothetical challenge:

You are a level 1 commoner living a quiet life on the material plane. In 24 hours a divine rank 20 deity is coming to kill you. You don't know anything about the deity other than their divine rank. That's the bad news.

The good news is that you can now receive any ten magic items of your choice to protect you. Anything RAW is an option, including obscure artifacts. Price is not an issue with any preexisting item but if you design your own (such as a custom magic sword) price is capped at 100,000gp per item.

Once you have selected your items you have 24 hours to make any further preparations, or even try to make an early offensive move.

I'm curious to see what people come up with. And I won't be too surprised if there's an artifact called "The Item of Winning" that lets you automatically defeat greater deities, but I'm hoping there's something less direct and more ingenious than that.

[NEO|Phyte]

10 candles of invocation, if I can't kill a deity through Gate abuse, I deserve to lose.

[Yukitsu]

Isn't that sufficient to make pun pun, skipping the pazuzu step?

[Lysander]

Let me clarify. Human commoner.

[NEO|Phyte]

Let me clarify. Human commoner.
"I wish I was a kobold."

[Yukitsu]

"I wish I was a kobold."

Or use 2 of your 30 wishes to PAO yourself into one.

[Amphetryon]

Let me clarify. Human commoner.

Pun-pun's most recent (to my knowledge) incarnation is a Human Paladin of Tyranny 1. Get the Candles of Invocation, "Pazuzu, Pazuzu...." etc. Should be doable as a Commoner with NI wealth, per the challenge.

[Yukitsu]

Fine, playing somewhat more fair, wish to be in the middle of the outlands, then use 29 wishes to attain 29 strong, physical attack based allies, and take them all into the middle of the outlands.

[Kalirren]

Celerity + Scholar's Touch + Cyrinishad. That's three items.

Edit: Okay, fine, I'll take a Wish to automatically establish a telepathic bond with the attacking deity.

[Kyeudo]

Let me clarify. Human commoner.

That's fine. One of my gated Solars will use a Wish on my behalf to turn me into a Kobold.

[Darastin]

Well, technically,you didn't specify a rules set, so RoleMaster's dreaded Arcane Suicide Bomber should do the trick.

Wait... it's supposed to be D&D? Well... someone needs to convert the ASB :smallcool:

Just my two Euro-Cents;
Darastin

[Lysander]

Could you actually make pun pun with a level 1 commoner? And more importantly, even if you could, could you do it in 24 hours? Anyways, all that aside, are there any non pun-pun ways to do this?

[Yukitsu]

Could you actually make pun pun with a level 1 commoner? And more importantly, even if you could, could you do it in 24 hours? Anyways, all that aside, are there any non pun-pun ways to do this?

Yes. The only questionable part of pun pun IMO is that you can get the candle of invocation without consequince from him. This challenge skips that part.

Depending on the God, my outlands method will work. The center of the outlands strips them of all divine abilities and casting. I just have to wish for the right allies. I believe the other methods mentioned work, but I'm not positive.

[Thalnawr]

Could you actually make pun pun with a level 1 commoner? And more importantly, even if you could, could you do it in 24 hours? Anyways, all that aside, are there any non pun-pun ways to do this?
Is the deity psionic? If so, then there's always the Annulus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus). But you wanted something without the artifact of IWIN, which that is versus any psionic being, so I dunno.

[Lysander]

Is the deity psionic? If so, then there's always the Annulus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus). But you wanted something without the artifact of IWIN, which that is versus any psionic being, so I dunno.

You don't know any details about the deity. But the annulus would be a smart pick for one of the ten items in case it does turn out to have psionic powers. You'd have to figure out a way to buy yourself the ten rounds needed to use it.

[Darklord Xavez]

Could you actually make pun pun with a level 1 commoner? And more importantly, even if you could, could you do it in 24 hours? Anyways, all that aside, are there any non pun-pun ways to do this?

WHAT THE HECK IS PUN PUN!?
Edit: Annulus is a good idea. To get the 10 rounds, well, you don't need to see the target to use the power. It doesn't say that you have to, so you don't.

[NEO|Phyte]

WHAT THE HECK IS PUN PUN!?

Imagine a character with arbitrarily high numbers for every numerical stat, that can give itself any ability in the game (and possibly MAKE UP ABILITIES to give itself as well)

[Darklord Xavez]

Imagine a character with arbitrarily high numbers for every numerical stat, that can give itself any ability in the game (and possibly MAKE UP ABILITIES to give itself as well)

That's just silly.

[Sliver]

WHAT THE HECK IS PUN PUN!?

Silly? Maybe. But here is one of the early methods (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.). Now you can do that by being a level 1 paladin.

[Flickerdart]

That's just silly.
Yep. But RAW-legal even without the wealth given for this challenge.

[Paulus]

Meh you guys are thinking to hard. If you can have a wish just wish there was no deity coming to kill you.
Or that another deity would stop them.
Or that all other deities would stop him.
Or that you were the deity coming to kill you and thereby kill your commoner self to become the deity.
The point is most of these suggestions require a wish or a miracle. Which is pretty much exactly what it would take if this kind of thing really happened.

Now me I would get a Mirror of Ultimate Reflecting, in that anything that that had 'evil' thoughts about me - such as harming me, killing me, etc - would instead have those actions used to do so reflected back on them. Then you'd be fine!

[Darklord Xavez]

That's an excellent point, Paulus. But what if the deity also has a mirror of reflecting?
-Xavez

[Flickerdart]

Meh you guys are thinking to hard. If you can have a wish just wish there was no deity coming to kill you.
Or that another deity would stop them.
Or that all other deities would stop him.
Or that you were the deity coming to kill you and thereby kill your commoner self to become the deity.
The point is most of these suggestions require a wish or a miracle. Which is pretty much exactly what it would take if this kind of thing really happened.

Now me I would get a Mirror of Ultimate Reflecting, in that anything that that had 'evil' thoughts about me - such as harming me, killing me, etc - would instead have those actions used to do so reflected back on them. Then you'd be fine!
The first one would either be outside the power of a Wish or emulate a spell, which the deity would be immune to.
The second and third would either be outside the power of a Wish or emulate a compulsion, which deities would be immune to.
The last one is outside the power of a Wish, because Wish can't emulate True Mind Switch which the deity would still be immune to.

You re probably thinking of a Mirror of Opposition, which only functions if a creature sees its reflection in it; something a DR 20 deity doesn't need to because it can Alter Reality you and the mirror out of existence.

[Lysander]

Meh you guys are thinking to hard. If you can have a wish just wish there was no deity coming to kill you.
Or that another deity would stop them.
Or that all other deities would stop him.
Or that you were the deity coming to kill you and thereby kill your commoner self to become the deity.
The point is most of these suggestions require a wish or a miracle. Which is pretty much exactly what it would take if this kind of thing really happened.


Wish is not nearly that powerful.

[Yora]

Meh you guys are thinking to hard. If you can have a wish just wish there was no deity coming to kill you.
Or that another deity would stop them.
Or that all other deities would stop him.
Or that you were the deity coming to kill you and thereby kill your commoner self to become the deity.
Wish can do none of these.

- Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
- Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
- Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
- Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
- Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
- Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
- Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
- Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
- Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
- Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
- Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
- Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

[Lysander]

Does normal arcane magic still function close to the spire on the outlands? If it does then maybe you could set up a trap there with a mirror of opposition. If it doesn't though hiding in the outlands might not do you much good, since the deity would still have its class levels, whatever those might be. Plus they could summon or create minions to attack you.

[Thalnawr]

Hmm, speaking of Outlands... You could always wish to be transported to Sigil. Use the rest of the wishes/items to find yourself a nice, safe, comfortable spot, and watch the fireworks once said greater deity tries to go there and the Lady of Pain swats him/her/it on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

Of course, she could just decide to turn you over, then you'd be hosed.

[Lapak]

I don't suppose the Sceptre of the Sorcerer Kings ever got an update past 2nd edition? Because if it did, I choose that artifact and use the HELL out of it until every deity, including the one coming to kill me, is banned from the Material Plane for a week.

Then I figure out how to withstand ALL of the deities ganging up on me in a week's time with the other 9 items.

[SSGoW]

What is Pun-Pun... Make a character sheet for the DM (not DMPC but the actual DM) and there you go ^-^ That is basically what Pun-Pun would be

What i want to know is how to do it with a Paladin of Tyranny..

[Yukitsu]

Hmm, speaking of Outlands... You could always wish to be transported to Sigil. Use the rest of the wishes/items to find yourself a nice, safe, comfortable spot, and watch the fireworks once said greater deity tries to go there and the Lady of Pain swats him/her/it on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

Of course, she could just decide to turn you over, then you'd be hosed.

Lady of pain swats you and the diety if he comes. Otherwise you're safe, as sigil is a safe haven for miscreants to hide out, so long as they don't disrupt the balance of the place. I wouldn't go that route, as the god may very well come after you there, prompting you to be shadowed.

[Nidogg]

Two words- THE CUBE!
For those who dont know what that is, its a box of magically re-enforced adamantite, surrounded by walls of force surrounded by prismatic walls. with self-resseting auto targeting traps on the outside. On wheels.
Its invincible. End of.

[Yukitsu]

Two words- THE CUBE!
For those who dont know what that is, its a box of magically re-enforced adamantite, surrounded by walls of force surrounded by prismatic walls. with self-resseting auto targeting traps on the outside. On wheels.
Its invincible. End of.

A divine strike states explicitly that it defeats all of those barriers without having to roll, and it also hits you. It also states that the only thing in existance that can stop it is a divine barrier.

[Nidogg]

put one of those in as well, its all good.

[Yukitsu]

put one of those in as well, its all good.

God ability. Can't emulate it with wishes or 100K wealth.

[Lycanthromancer]

First item: a magic 8 ball that grants you metafaculty 1/day, and ask the name of the deity trying to kill you.

Then get an item that lets you plane shift to the moon base planar headquarters of a god that approves of the things you've done in your life (if you're a silly drunkard, go see Baccus; if you're a librarian, go see Boccob; if you're an atheist...well, you're screwed).

Petition to see the god by telling one of its lackeys that you have a very valuable offering (and use one of your item choices for some greater artifact of some kind, such as an annulus or the hand/eye/head of Vecna), and when the god grants you an audience, make the offering, and then explain your situation. If another god comes to kill you there, he/she/it will butt heads with the god you made your offering to.

If the 8 ball was tricked into answering the question wrong, and the god you went to see was the one trying to kill you...well, you're still screwed.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Now why must we kill the deity shouldn't escape and living to a ripe old age be enough?

But you know I can do it in just five items.
Everfull Purse, [that epic artifact that turns 1gp to 25gp once a day]
A portal key
A portal to sigil[you can only access sigil through the portal]
A cloak of non-detection caster level 16th [96,000gp] to hide the magical nature of the everfull purse.
1gp

Alright, so here's how it works. I use the key and portal and travel to Sigil.
The god can't touch me, deities are barred from sigil, period. I may not have killed him but hey, I get the chance to live to a ripe old age.
I'd call that victory

Technically I do it in two items, the everful purse, the 1gp starter and the cloak are just so I can live in the city.

[Lysander]

Now why must we kill the deity shouldn't escape and living to a ripe old age be enough?

But you know I can do it in just five items.
Everfull Purse, [that epic artifact that turns 1gp to 25gp once a day]
A portal key
A portal to sigil[you can only access sigil through the portal]
A cloak of non-detection caster level 16th [96,000gp] to hide the magical nature of the everfull purse.
1gp

Alright, so here's how it works. I use the key and portal and travel to Sigil.
The god can't touch me, deities are barred from sigil, period. I may not have killed him but hey, I get the chance to live to a ripe old age.
I'd call that victory

Technically I do it in two items, the everful purse, the 1gp starter and the cloak are just so I can live in the city.

Escaping somewhere the god can't go is helpful, but doesn't prevent them from sending assassins (or even custom made monsters created with divine abilities) to kill you.

[Just_Ice]

Huge folding trap, 7 bags of holding stitched together, some sort of gem charmed to be irresistible to the divine, and a portable hole. You said we had to win, not that we had to survive.

Alternatively, some method of teleporting them to the elemental plane of Falling Damage since that pretty much goes through everything

Alternatively alternatively, buy a bunch of that quintessence stuff, encase 'im in it somehow and dump him into the ocean like the mob. This has the reverse effect of killing him since it's preserving him eternally, but its physical avatar is somebody else's problem.

Oh, or a wand that casts that non-raw druid spell that turns things into infants without a save. Get something embarrassing like a spoon and finish the job. You probably need use magical device, so let's say it's a custom wand that uses the hand of a long dead druid with a mechanism to work it all for you and you just have to pull a lever.

[Clovis]

Isn't it so that you can only kill a god in their own plane of existence? If the god is coming to material plane, there's no way to kill it. Zero. Even if you managed to whittle out all it's XP, it would only rematerialize later on in its own plane. By which time you'd be dead of old age... and then the said god could bargain with whatever deity is holding your soul to relinguish it to it and, well, you'd be screwed. Again and more.

[Yukitsu]

Isn't it so that you can only kill a god in their own plane of existence? If the god is coming to material plane, there's no way to kill it. Zero. Even if you managed to whittle out all it's XP, it would only rematerialize later on in its own plane. By which time you'd be dead of old age... and then the said god could bargain with whatever deity is holding your soul to relinguish it to it and, well, you'd be screwed. Again and more.

True except in the outlands where that ability fails, and that anywhere else you can afterwards travel to his homeplane and steal his divinity before he reforms himself.

[Lord of Syntax]

God ability. Can't emulate it with wishes or 100K wealth.

I wish for a simulcrum of <X diety>.
I order the simulcrum to grant me 1 DR.

[Clovis]

Why would a rank 20 god need to go to the outlands? It's a greater god with huge amount of followers, allies, lesser gods as pets etc. It can simply order an endless row of minions to come and get the commoner to the outskirts of outlands. Even if the commoner has epic items (and, for argument's sake, UMD skill), he'll eventually fail against hordes. Of constructs made immune to just about everything. A level 20 god can create just about anything.

[randomhero00]

What about becoming a god yourself? An actual one, not pun pun I mean. Opens up a lot of options. You only need a certain amount of worshipers I think. Wish should be able to get you that. If not, look up all the ways of becoming one. Its surprisingly easy. If it takes longer than 24 hours move to one of the planes that speeds up time so you have close to a year to prepare and get worshipers. Once you're divine rank 0 or 1 it becomes even easier to become stronger. Even if you can't get rank 20 outright.

[Protecar]

Probably newbie questions:smallredface:: but where is the information on combatting gods? (I.e: where is the rules for these outlands, or for the knowledge that killing a god outside of his plane does not permanently kill him, or how to take said god's divinity during its downtime while its avatar is slain, or how long the god is in stasis to begin with?)

Is there a particular book with all this information or...?

[Paulus]

That's an excellent point, Paulus. But what if the deity also has a mirror of reflecting?
-Xavez

Well as long as you don’t wish to harm (etc) the deity there is nothing to reflect back. *shrug*


The first one would either be outside the power of a Wish or emulate a spell, which the deity would be immune to.
The second and third would either be outside the power of a Wish or emulate a compulsion, which deities would be immune to.
The last one is outside the power of a Wish, because Wish can't emulate True Mind Switch which the deity would still be immune to.

You re probably thinking of a Mirror of Opposition, which only functions if a creature sees its reflection in it; something a DR 20 deity doesn't need to because it can Alter Reality you and the mirror out of existence.


Wish is not nearly that powerful.


Wish can do none of these.

Wish for a better wish then. =P Point was if all you have to rely on is Wish or Miracle you pretty much screwed because the deity could just interview anyway. Can’t be pun pun if the deity tells pazuzu “no”. Basically whatever is granting you a wish can be “no”ed by the deity, and if you want a miracle that’s god vs. god. For all we know it might be Pun pun himself that is coming after you.

And no, not a mirror of Opposition. A Mirror Of Ultimate Reflecting, which just basically an I win item. I’m not familiar with the rules or items enough to come up with something ingenious.

Also these posts that say “I wish to teleport to” I’d like to see the commoner make the knowledge check to know where those places are. But you know, that is a bit unfair because if you take out the meta gaming a commoner wouldn’t know WHAT to ask for except in a general way as I have done “I wish/pray it wasn’t coming after me! Help me whomever I worship!” kind of thing. But meh, I won’t spoil the fun any longer. Continue. :3

EDIT: On second thought. Let's kick the Meta gaming out the window. You're best bet would be to run into the nearest church/tavern (depending on your beliefs) and beg some adventures for help. Now THAT'S a quest hook. heh.

[Clovis]

Probably newbie questions:smallredface:: but where is the information on combatting gods? (I.e: where is the rules for these outlands, or for the knowledge that killing a god outside of his plane does not permanently kill him, or how to take said god's divinity during its downtime while its avatar is slain, or how long the god is in stasis to begin with?)

Is there a particular book with all this information or...?

The Dicefreaks use SRD system and this is what they say about gods (among other things):
Immortality: All deities (even those of rank 0) are
naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. A
deity does not age, and she does not need to eat, sleep, or
breathe. Deities of rank 1 or higher are not subject to
death from massive damage. The only way for a deity to
die is through special circumstances, usually by being
slain in magical or physical combat. She risks permanent
destruction if slain on her home plane and if the attacker
succeeds in a rank check. Otherwise, the deity reforms
within her divine realm after one year per hit die.

[Flickerdart]

And no, not a mirror of Opposition. A Mirror Of Ultimate Reflecting, which just basically an I win item. I’m not familiar with the rules or items enough to come up with something ingenious.
Such a thing does not actually exist (a Google search for the name turns up only thins thread), and would be far beyond the 100,000GP cap to create, and essentially homebrew.

[Beorn080]

Well, 10 mirrors of opposition should win, since if the deity appears it suddenly has to fight 10 of itself.

The problem is, most deities don't need to come to kill you, since they can effectively do a Rocks fall Everyone dies from their home plane. That Ultimate reflecting mirror would work, except the deity could just want to cast fireball, notice he got scorched, and try something else.

Personally, assuming its a god of at least slightly different alignment, I'd take every major evil artifact as a LG commoner, find a cleric of Pelor, and sac them all to him. Now that I'm Pelor's favorite, I doubt most other gods would bother me. And by sacrifice, I mean giving them to him.

Alternatively, set up shop in a massive city, 10 autoreset nondetectable traps of mass suggestion CL20 "Worship Urist McCommoner as a God, for he needs a hand" and scatter them through the major arteries. Even if they only fail on a natural one, you should get the few hundred followers needed to become a rank 1 god, thus giving you a private demiplane. Should eventually get a few more ranks too.

[Paulus]

Such a thing does not actually exist (a Google search for the name turns up only thins thread), and would be far beyond the 100,000GP cap to create, and essentially homebrew.

Naturally since It's something a commoner not wanting to be killed by a god would ask for- something he doesn't know exists to protect him.

Pretty much supports the whole "best bet would be to run into the nearest church/tavern (depending on your beliefs) and beg some adventures for help" don't it?

[Yukitsu]

I wish for a simulcrum of <X diety>.
I order the simulcrum to grant me 1 DR.

Gods can't grant divine rank so far as I know.

[Flickerdart]

Naturally since It's something a commoner not wanting to be killed by a god would ask for- something he doesn't know exists to protect him.

Pretty much supports the whole "best bet would be to run into the nearest church/tavern (depending on your beliefs) and beg some adventures for help" don't it?
wat

I'm not even sure what you're arguing with this. A commoner would ask for an item that doesn't exist because he doesn't know whether such an item would exist or not? And he would get this item? :smallconfused:

[Binks]

Oh, or a wand that casts that non-raw druid spell that turns things into infants without a save...

Wouldn't work. "A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form."

[Paulus]

wat

I'm not even sure what you're arguing with this. A commoner would ask for an item that doesn't exist because he doesn't know whether such an item would exist or not? And he would get this item? :smallconfused:

Probably not because it doesn't exist, but again being a commoner, he doesn't know that. Therefore whatever is granting them these ten magical items or whatnot simply wouldn't grant it to him and he would continue asking for other things to protect or save him all usually answer 'can't' etc whereby driven mad with fear the commoner would run to the nearest church/tavern (depending on belief) and beg for help.

What does a commoner know of pazuzu, invocations, solars, gates, or even deities? heh. Mainly I'm just tickled by the sheer number of nay sayers who don't come up with their own suggestion but are more than happy to shoot someone else's down in burning flames. and that's not a condemnation mind you, just an observation, tickled with mirth.

Not really arguing either by the by, just adding my own suggestions. Not every post or thread need require an argument. Sorry if I'm wasting your time. *shrug*

[Lysander]

Just to clarify, the 100,000gp limit only applies to items you design yourself. Anything that is already listed somewhere has no price limit. So you can pick ten epic artifacts, even unique tools used by other gods. In this scenario you're being given the items freely with no costs, so don't worry about the item's original owner coming to get you. The basic goal of this challenge is to figure out a combination of ten items that grant the necessary power to a nobody.

[Flickerdart]

What does a commoner know of pazuzu, invocations, solars, gates, or even deities?
Knowledge checks. The same way anyone knows anything about anything in 3.5, other than things which are obvious. Really, there are mechanics for a whole bunch of things that people ignore. A lot can be done within the confines of the rules, such as, as you've seen, fighting a god using nothing but your credit card.

[Taelas]

Human commoner 1. 16 base Cha (point buy 10), Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Negotiator (+2 Diplomacy), 2 ranks in Diplomacy (max for a cross class skill at level 1) for a total +10 Diplomacy. I use a wish from a ring of three wishes to give me a single hair from the deity.

I use an item that lets me cast ice assassin once (custom item, costs 56,650 gp [17×9×50+5,000×5+20,000]). I use it with the hair. I order the ice assassin (who has all the abilities of the deity) to make me into a Divine Proxy, making me a rank 1 demigod. I find a bunch of squirrels. I make one a Divine Proxy, making me Divine Rank 0. I order my ice assassin to make me a Divine Proxy again. Repeat until I have made 20 squirrels into Divine Proxies (and my ice assassin is Divine Rank 0). Then I recall my Divine Ranks. I am Divine Rank 20. I make my portfolio revolve around Diplomacy.

As a Greater Deity, I always roll maximum on my dice rolls. Once the deity shows up, I make a Diplomacy check on the deity as an Automatic Action (getting a total of 50 -- automatic 20, +10 as above, +20 for Divine Ranks), turning him from Hostile to Indifferent (as the maximum I can use for Automatic Actions within my portfolio is DC 30, and the DC for Friendly is 35). Then I use Diplomacy as an Automatic Action once again, turning him Helpful. I can't use Diplomacy as an Automatic Action this time (as the DC from Helpful to Fanatical is 50), but that's fine; I'll take my time. I spend 1 minute using Diplomacy to turn him Fanatical. As I am also Divine Rank 20, his immunity to mind-affecting effects does not apply, so now I have a Divine Rank 20 slave, who is willing to die just to serve me.

That took me... two items.

If I can't get the hair, I'll just have to boost my Diplomacy to +29 (which is easy, given that I can make a single item that gives me that much that doesn't cost above 100,000gp to make), make a Rushed Diplomacy check as a full-round action at a -10 penalty, turn him Unfriendly, then take my time turning him Helpful. I can't turn him Fanatical without being a deity myself, but having a Helpful deity isn't bad either.

Especially since he was once planning to kill me.

[Lycanthromancer]

Hmm. First, the magic 8 ball to tell me all about the deity in question, including name and doctrine.

Let's say it's Pelor (the bastard).

In this case, I'd get a self-replicating piece of indisputably damning evidence showing him doing something really horrible and against his "supposed" nature (such as holographic photos of his altercations with various choirboys). Bonus points if they depict an actual event (he's not known colloquially as 'The Burning Hate' for nothing, after all). The mechanical bonus would be "+150 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy when attempting to convince someone to abandon Pelor."

Then go around showing this evidence to all of his highest-level priests and other worshipers, and get them to spread it to all of their fellow Pelorites (it's self-replicating).

Within a few hours (and a few wind walks, greater teleports, and other ways of improving the speed of infection, which should be easily gotten from various Goody-two-shoes clerics of other gods that are now Pelor's Mortal Enemiestm), his worshipers should be reduced to very little, especially with his now ex-clerics preaching from the rooftops, as it were.

And even if he does manage to find and kill me, the damage has been done, and his divinity has been compromised. I'd be getting a Crafted contingent wish to bring me back if that's the case...or even if he destroys my soul utterly.

Bye bye, you festering pile of burning hatred. Enjoy your new life (death?) as an ex-god.

[Kyrthain]

Item 1: A +10000 adamantine greatsword with whatever abilities you want
Item 2: Scroll of greater teleport

First, teleport next to Pandorym's crystal. Then hit it with the sword. Cue Pandorym killing all the gods, including the one after you.

If you haven't heard of Pandorym, he's from elder evils. Super powerful deicidal psionic entity trapped in a crystal.

[Paulus]

Knowledge checks. The same way anyone knows anything about anything in 3.5, other than things which are obvious. Really, there are mechanics for a whole bunch of things that people ignore. A lot can be done within the confines of the rules, such as, as you've seen, fighting a god using nothing but your credit card.

Last I checked (and I could be wrong 3.5 or so) Commoners didn't have any knowledges as class skills nor many skill points. How would you suggest he spent them then to accomplish... um... whatever it is you're suggesting?

[absolmorph]

Human commoner 1. 16 base Cha (point buy 10), Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Negotiator (+2 Diplomacy), 2 ranks in Diplomacy (max for a cross class skill at level 1) for a total +10 Diplomacy. I use a wish from a ring of three wishes to give me a single hair from the deity.

I use an item that lets me cast ice assassin once (custom item, costs 56,650 gp [17×9×50+5,000×5+20,000]). I use it with the hair. I order the ice assassin (who has all the abilities of the deity) to make me into a Divine Proxy, making me a rank 1 demigod. I find a bunch of squirrels. I make one a Divine Proxy, making me Divine Rank 0. I order my ice assassin to make me a Divine Proxy again. Repeat until I have made 20 squirrels into Divine Proxies (and my ice assassin is Divine Rank 0). Then I recall my Divine Ranks. I am Divine Rank 20. I make my portfolio revolve around Diplomacy.

As a Greater Deity, I always roll maximum on my dice rolls. Once the deity shows up, I make a Diplomacy check on the deity as an Automatic Action (getting a total of 50 -- automatic 20, +10 as above, +20 for Divine Ranks), turning him from Hostile to Indifferent (as the maximum I can use for Automatic Actions within my portfolio is DC 30, and the DC for Friendly is 35). Then I use Diplomacy as an Automatic Action once again, turning him Helpful. I can't use Diplomacy as an Automatic Action this time (as the DC from Helpful to Fanatical is 50), but that's fine; I'll take my time. I spend 1 minute using Diplomacy to turn him Fanatical. As I am also Divine Rank 20, his immunity to mind-affecting effects does not apply, so now I have a Divine Rank 20 slave, who is willing to die just to serve me.

That took me... two items.

If I can't get the hair, I'll just have to boost my Diplomacy to +29 (which is easy, given that I can make a single item that gives me that much that doesn't cost above 100,000gp to make), make a Rushed Diplomacy check as a full-round action at a -10 penalty, turn him Unfriendly, then take my time turning him Helpful. I can't turn him Fanatical without being a deity myself, but having a Helpful deity isn't bad either.

Especially since he was once planning to kill me.

Diplomancing without being a diplmancer. Wonderful :smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

1.Heward's handy haversack

2.Deck of many things

3.Deck of many things

4-10 are tabled for now.

Use haversack's ability to "When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top." is used to grab both Jesters. Not sure if both are needed, but we'll go that way for safety's sake.

With 20k experience, become a 5th level Psion. Take a psicrystal and up its HD to 6 with your feats. Proceed to give your 6th level psycrystal the leadership feat. As your psicrystal's cohort, choose a pure classed L4 human psion who has taken improved psicrystal 3 times. This psion has a L7 crystal, who needs to take leadership as well. Repeat the process, with the only requirement on a cohort being that he must select improved psicrystal at least 3 times and be of max level for the position. Eventually, you'll arrive at a psion who is a high enough level that he can become an epic level wizard while still maintaining a high enough psicrystal to keep the loop explosive. At some point, somebody in your group can take this deity on his own. However, there are ways of speeding that up by things like chain-gating solars, genesis, abusing epic spellcasting, or almost every other dirty trick in the book. With, at a minimum, 4 digit HD spellcasters, psionicists, and binders at your command, if you can't defeat a Rank 20 god, it can't be done.

Of course, nothing above would fly in a normal game, but its RAW.

[The Rabbler]

Use haversack's ability to "When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top." is used to grab both Jesters. Not sure if both are needed, but we'll go that way for safety's sake.



I can't believe I've never thought of this. and my DM loves sending the "epic win or massive fail" items our way just to mess with us. you have just made me very very happy.

[Lycanthromancer]

I can't believe I've never thought of this. and my DM loves sending the "epic win or massive fail" items our way just to mess with us. you have just made me very very happy.Does anyone know if someone had come up with that idea before I did, or was it wholly original at the time?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[tyckspoon]

I can't believe I've never thought of this. and my DM loves sending the "epic win or massive fail" items our way just to mess with us. you have just made me very very happy.

I'm reasonably certain it doesn't work. My suspicion is keyed on the stated procedure for drawing from the Deck, which is state number of cards you want and then draw from the whole Deck. If you make the Haversack deliver you a specific card, you are not drawing from the Deck, at least not in a way the rules recognize as you activating the Deck's magic; you're just getting a card out of your backpack.

[The Rabbler]

I'm reasonably certain it doesn't work. My suspicion is keyed on the stated procedure for drawing from the Deck, which is state number of cards you want and then draw from the whole Deck. If you make the Haversack deliver you a specific card, you are not drawing from the Deck, at least not in a way the rules recognize as you activating the Deck's magic; you're just getting a card out of your backpack.

... damn. I wanted to see my DM's face when everyone in the party got jesters and red cards without even trying.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm reasonably certain it doesn't work. My suspicion is keyed on the stated procedure for drawing from the Deck, which is state number of cards you want and then draw from the whole Deck. If you make the Haversack deliver you a specific card, you are not drawing from the Deck, at least not in a way the rules recognize as you activating the Deck's magic; you're just getting a card out of your backpack.Draw ALL the cards and Undo Misfortune (of one of the wishes you get, if nothing else) to put back all the cards you don't want.

[deep_well]

I was under the impression that you had to declare how many cards you will draw from the deck, then you have to draw the cards before anything else, then the effects happen, before anything else.... i could very easily be wrong though. in addition if this works.... :smallamused::smalltongue::smallamused::smallyuk:

[Lycanthromancer]

I was under the impression that you had to declare how many cards you will draw from the deck, then you have to draw the cards before anything else, then the effects happen, before anything else.... i could very easily be wrong though. in addition if this works.... :smallamused::smalltongue::smallamused::smallyuk:A ll the effects happen, yes, and one of those effects is a wish. Just wish for all the unwanted cards to have not been drawn. :smallbiggrin:

[deep_well]

I meant all effects of the cards before you have a chance to react...
srd says
Deck of Many Things

A deck of many things (both beneficial and baneful) is usually found in a box or leather pouch. Each deck contains a number of cards or plaques made of ivory or vellum. Each is engraved with glyphs, characters, and sigils. As soon as one of these cards is drawn from the pack, its magic is bestowed upon the person who drew it, for better or worse.

The character with a deck of many things who wishes to draw a card must announce how many cards she will draw before she begins. Cards must be drawn within 1 hour of each other, and a character can never again draw from this deck any more cards than she has announced. If the character does not willingly draw her allotted number (or if she is somehow prevented from doing so), the cards flip out of the deck on their own.

Exception: If the jester is drawn, the possessor of the deck may elect to draw two additional cards.

Each time a card is taken from the deck, it is replaced (making it possible to draw the same card twice) unless the draw is the jester or the fool, in which case the card is discarded from the pack. A deck of many things contains 22 cards. To simulate the magic cards, you may want to use tarot cards, as indicated in the second column of the accompanying table. If no tarot deck is available, substitute ordinary playing cards instead, as indicated in the third column. The effects of each card, summarized on the table, are fully described below.

never mind your right.... LOLOLOLLOLOOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOL :smallbiggrin:

[Stompy]

1. Use items to go to Sigil (tuning fork to plane near place near a Sigil portal + plane shift scroll).
2. Figure out who the deity is that wants to kill you. (Sell an rediculously priced item, get a divination or something off of an NPC cleric.
3. Spread a cultural revolution that gets it so that people will kill said diety's followers across the multi-verse. Hell, the Athar should be able to help you. (I'm stumped here, but there's gotta be an artifact that mind controls people.)
4. If all my planescape mythos I have learned is true, said deity needs faith to be a deity, and if it has no followers, it is no longer a deity.

Alternatively:

1. Use items to go to a time-invariant plane.
2. Proceed to take it easy, because 24 hours means nothing here.

I'm probably very wrong here, but that's my take on it.

[TheMadLinguist]

Commoner
Two feats: Magical training (PGtF) and Precocious apprentice: Summon Mirror Mephit.
Starting gold spent on a dose of liquid pain

Summon a mirror mephit. As per the MM, as a spell-like ability it's simulacrum ability is a standard action.

Have it duplicate the biggest efreet it can and order it to obey you (using the liquid pain as an optional material component).

Use the three wishes wisely.



Wait, we get money?

[tyckspoon]

All the effects happen, yes, and one of those effects is a wish. Just wish for all the unwanted cards to have not been drawn. :smallbiggrin:

Still a very risky thing to do, since the effects apply in order as you draw them; you're quite likely to get Talon'd/Voided/Donjoned/Skulled before you draw Moon or Fates to let you undo the poor draws. Doesn't matter in this particular case, I suppose, as you have at least nine other items to play with so you can just have a couple Rings of Three Wishes or loaded Luck Blades as backups. Unless you manage to draw Talons or Donjon first, in which case you're boned. (I also don't think Wish can actually undo all of the bad draws; the Undo Misfortune option doesn't even rewind an entire round, it just changes one roll. The safe option would be to undo the last card you drew and let you redraw it, or just negate the bad effect of the draw if it's one where Wish can do that.)

[Yukitsu]

Draw ALL the cards and Undo Misfortune (of one of the wishes you get, if nothing else) to put back all the cards you don't want.

You can't elect to draw them all, as they are reshuffled after every draw, including the one you picked. You have to pick however many you can draw in an hour, which may consist of significantly more harm than you can undue.

[Kallisti]

I imagine I've been beaten to it by now, but...

"Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu..."

[Optimystik]

All the effects happen, yes, and one of those effects is a wish. Just wish for all the unwanted cards to have not been drawn. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think they happen simultaneously, but in sequence. Rather like extremely high-stakes Jumanji.

[Taelas]

All the effects happen, yes, and one of those effects is a wish. Just wish for all the unwanted cards to have not been drawn. :smallbiggrin:

It doesn't work. You draw one card. That card is shuffled into the deck, unless it is the Fool or the Jester. The effect of that card happens immediately.

It is physically impossible to draw all the cards. If you say "I draw a million cards" (yes, by RAW, this is allowed -- no limit is given on how many cards you wish to draw), then you draw a million cards, in sequence.

You CAN undo drawing a card through wish, but that just means you have to draw again.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Escaping somewhere the god can't go is helpful, but doesn't prevent them from sending assassins (or even custom made monsters created with divine abilities) to kill you.

Then killing the god is utterly pointless to because those same assassins and servants will come for you out of revenge for their fallen deity.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Step 1: Using the first of the ten items we are allowed, become a Shaedling.

Step 2: Shadow Gossamer (Ex): As a swift action, a Shaedling can create a 15 pound or lighter item out of shadow gossamer, and it usually crafts a weapon just before attacking. A Shaedling is proficient with any weapon it creates from shadow gossamer, and such weapons have a range increment 10 feet longer than usual. Shields constructed of this substance have their armor check penalty reduced by 1. Shadow gossamer implements dissipate to nothingness if they leave the hands of a shaedling for more than 1 round.

Step 3: ...

Step 4: Profit.

[ZeroNumerous]

Draw ALL the cards and Undo Misfortune (of one of the wishes you get, if nothing else) to put back all the cards you don't want.

If you really wanna cheat the Deck of Many things...

Item #1: Pick your first item as a use-activated Craft Contingency Time Regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) cast on you. Specify your contingency as "Whenever I draw a card from the Deck of Many Things which has a directly harmful effect or otherwise puts me in danger regress me by one round". We will call this item "Save-State"

Item #2: Deck of Many Things.

Item #3: An item of Psionic Domination, or regular Dominate Person.

Item #4: A town of moderate population.

---

Round 1: Use Save-State.

Round 2: Draw every card in the deck.

Round 2a: When you draw any dangerous card, go to Round 2b. If you draw the Fates, go to Round X.

Round 2b: Now that you have found out the exact order of cards drawn(everything except your actions after a Time Regression remain the save) you now draw every beneficial card up to the first harmful card.

Round 3: Dominate Sucker #1.

Round 3a: Order Sucker #1 to draw one card.

Round 3b: Go to Round 1.

Round X: Systematically draw every card in the deck until you get The Fates. Choose the situation "Having a deity upset at me".

[Taelas]

The problem with that idea is that you must specify a number of cards to draw and you could potentially never draw the Fates.

[ZeroNumerous]

The problem with that idea is that you must specify a number of cards to draw and you could potentially never draw the Fates.

Just specify "1,000" every time. The actual number is largely irrelevant as you will eventually draw every single card in the deck.

[Taelas]

Just specify "1,000" every time. The actual number is largely irrelevant as you will eventually draw every single card in the deck.

No, not necessarily. The deck is shuffled after each draw, and the card you drew is put back in (with the exceptions of the Fool and the Jester). You could potentially draw 1,000 versions of the same card.

You can only specify how many cards you want to draw once, before you draw any cards.

[awa]

Theirs a creature gods can make as an assassin to kill pepole they don't like it has every ability you have and then some even pun pun would have trouble fighting 20 exact duplicates of himself at once

[TheMadLinguist]

Theirs a creature gods can make as an assassin to kill pepole they don't like it has every ability you have and then some even pun pun would have trouble fighting 20 exact duplicates of himself at once

A) They can only make one at a time
B) Their ability (invincibility to all but a single target) is one that pun-pun possess himself. The difference is, they're immune to every character but pun-pun.

Pun-pun is immune to everyone but himself.

[Clovis]

Pun-pun is immune to everyone but himself.

You forget the one character which bypasses all immunities: the DM. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

You forget the one character which bypasses all immunities: the DM. :smallbiggrin:

Pun-Pun and the DM never exist simultaneously, so it's not really applicable.

[Optimystik]

Pun-Pun and the DM never exist simultaneously, so it's not really applicable.

Come to think of it, I never do see them in the same room together. And one wears glasses while the other one doesn't.

Could it be...?

[TheMadLinguist]

You forget the one character which bypasses all immunities: the DM. :smallbiggrin:

Iron Heart Surge away the DM.

[goken04]

Iron Heart Surge away the DM.

This is made of pure WIN

[Flob]

I hate to rain on the mighty "Deck of Many Things" parade, but I do believe that in the DM Guide it specifically states that "no divination magic can be used to see which card you will draw, and there is no way to pick a specific card out of the deck". Or something along those lines. I don't have the DMG on me right now, so can someone confirm this?

[EpicEvokerElf]

Nobody's actually proposing to divine which card they're drawing; they're making plans to draw them all while avoiding the effects of the harmful ones. The haversack argument went away.

[Item that grants IH Surge]
Ironheart Surge away the deity.

[Samb]

The inner most layer of the outlands seems to be your best bet. So an item to get there is needed. Not sure if can plane shift in, or if you can get in but not out?

Traps with high DC and maybe potent poisons to fend off proxies/cleric of said god maybe helpful. Also a means of dealing ranged posion (save or die) could be helpful. The god himself, even without all his SLA and spells will not be a pushover. They usually have at least 3-4 stats over 20 and more Pluses and feats that DO function in the outlands.

Hopefully your non magical traps will snare him and he rolls a one on a save (assuming divine rank is nulled). Given that you only have items that are masterwork at best, the odds will not be good. A quiver full of save or die tipped arrows/bolts will again increase your odds of a "lucky hit" but it is still pretty bad since a commoner has no BAB to start with, crits maybe your only hope here. So what are the chances you roll 20 twice and the god rolls a 1?

Not too great but it's the best shot I can see to kill a god one on one at level one.

PS this assumes gods lose the immunity to auto fail on a roll of one.

[ZeroNumerous]

Or something along those lines. I don't have the DMG on me right now, so can someone confirm this?

Probably. Honestly, it doesn't matter as I'm not using divination magic or anything similar.


No, not necessarily. The deck is shuffled after each draw, and the card you drew is put back in (with the exceptions of the Fool and the Jester). You could potentially draw 1,000 versions of the same card.

Except that's so remote as to be impossible.

EDIT:


PS this assumes gods lose the immunity to auto fail on a roll of one.

Divine Rank 20 makes you always roll 20s. You also roll max damage. Every single roll. Even if you don't want to.

I guess if you had maxed out bluff, some way of getting a Cursed Item of Aura of Chaos on him, a cursed 1d2 weapon and force him to attack something then he'll spend eternity doing nothing but attacking it.

[Taelas]

Except that's so remote as to be impossible.

Keep in mind that you have the same chance to draw a specific card every time you draw.

It is certainly possible to not draw the card in even a thousand draws. Implausible, yes, but that does not make it impossible.

[pingcode20]

The probability of not drawing a given card in 1000 tries, assuming a 'depleted' deck (no fool or joker), is somewhere in the order of 1 in 1.89 * 10^22, or one in 18.9 sextillion.

The probability of drawing the same card 1000 times is so small that a double precision variable on a 32 bit system is entirely incapable of holding it.

Neither of these are at all a meaningful 'point of failure'.

If you like, the commoner can draw a card 14,527 times, which would make the probability of failing to draw a fates card a little under 1 in 2 * 10^323.

[Taelas]

Eh. I tried running the numbers but I'm not particularly skilled in the field of mathematics, and I got rather different numbers than you. (Nothing that would change the conclusion, though -- I fully agree with you there.) I probably just missed something.

I guess I was just being contrary. I'll withdraw my objection.

[pingcode20]

It's just the probability of not getting the card you want (19/20) to the power of however many trials you use.

The one-in notation uses the inverse of that.

But yeah, past about the 20-30 mark you can fairly readily expect to grab the card at least once. Along with every other card in the deck, but still.

The real question is whether save-scumming 'reseeds' fate or not. If yes, then you can just keep trying until the fates is your card; 'Contingency: If the card I draw is not The Fates'.

If not, you can savescum for the order and expend a minion on each 'bad' draw until the Fates arrives. That is, once you hit something bad, have one of your dominated minions draw as many as it takes to hit it then keep going yourself.

[Taelas]

Ah! Now I see the problem. I thought there were two Jesters in a deck, not just one. So I got (18/19)1000 = 1 in ~3 x 1024.

But yeah, you can eliminate the issue altogether by changing the Contingency to something else. (For instance, if you want it to be applicable to more than just the Fates, you could make one that says "If I draw a card I would not approve of".)

[Bogardan_Mage]

Gods can't grant divine rank so far as I know.
Can too. Although technically it's called making a proxie. A deity may invest 1 rank of its power (reducing its divine rank accordingly) in a single servant for as long as the deity chooses. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#proxies). Pun Pun uses arbitrarily large numbers of deity Ice Assassins and squirrels to get his divine ranks.

[Darklord Xavez]

Two things: The Annulus (psionic item, can destroy anything(s) psionic once/year) + ring of three wishes. Wish the deity to be psionic, and blast away with the annulus (no line of sight needed).
-Xavez

[hamishspence]

When used to destroy anything of demigod levels of power or higher, the Annulus is destroyed itself and cannot be retrieved.

it takes 10 rounds of concentration to use, and the target must be within 100 ft.

So, if the deity spots it, and flees before the 10 rounds are up (or destroys the target, breaks their concentation, etc), it won't do it.

[Emmerask]

also wishing that a deity becomes psionic is not really a standard use of wish :smallbiggrin:

[Darklord Xavez]

When used to destroy anything of demigod levels of power or higher, the Annulus is destroyed itself and cannot be retrieved.

it takes 10 rounds of concentration to use, and the target must be within 100 ft.

So, if the deity spots it, and flees before the 10 rounds are up (or destroys the target, breaks their concentation, etc), it won't do it.

Actually, it has unlimited range, but can only damage things in a 100-ft radius around the main target (I'm talking about the 3.0 Annulus). Also, it doesn't matter if the Annulus is destroyed, and you can wish for the Annulus to activate its power faster with one of the other two wishes from the ring.
-Xavez

[hamishspence]

It says, in both 3.0 and 3.5 annulus description "Target within 100 ft radius"

not "Everything within 100 ft radius of target"


The wielder specifies a target or targets within a 100-foot radius, from a specific psionic individual or item, to a group of psionic beings that share the same philosophy

Also- wish and Major Artifacts, probably don't mix.

[Yukitsu]

Can too. Although technically it's called making a proxie. A deity may invest 1 rank of its power (reducing its divine rank accordingly) in a single servant for as long as the deity chooses. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#proxies). Pun Pun uses arbitrarily large numbers of deity Ice Assassins and squirrels to get his divine ranks.

You aren't a servant in this instance however.

[Taelas]

You aren't a servant in this instance however.

Why is that an issue? If you're abusing Ice Assassin, you just make the pseudo-deity make you a servant first.

[Paulus]

I think you guys are trying too hard. All you need is one of those super optimized for strength types that you see running around on the boards all the time and then have him bludgeon the god to death with the commoner. I'm sure the minus for improvised weapons won't hinder the build too much.

[Samb]

Wish will NOT affect gods. It explicitly says so, so please stop saying "wish this , wish that" because it will not work unless you are target and even then wish will NOT grant divine ranks to you.

That demon that will help you out if you call his name three times shouldn't work either because he's not dumb enough to get on a god's bad side nor can he affect divinity. Unless your DM is a complete idiot that is.

I do hope this will clear up all the "wish the god dead" ideas here. Alter reality makes wish look like a joke anyway.

[Taelas]

A wish can affect a god. You can replicate damage spells through it, for example, and assuming the god is not immune to said damage, he is affected.

Don't make generalized statements unless you are certain they are correct.

[Lysander]

The major strategy so far seems to flee to the outlands where the god is weakened. The downside with this strategy is twofold:

1. Even without divine powers a god is still a level 30-50 character. So they could still come in person and beat you up.
2. They wouldn't have to come in person, they could instead send an endless stream of creatures there to attack you.

So to survive while using this strategy you'd want to pick items that let you survive in the outlands, and remain hidden from an endless stream of assassins. The odds of you surviving for long aren't too keen. At best you're just delaying the inevitable.

Plus, can some please clarify this - does the spire just negate godly powers or does it also stop ALL magic. If it does then your items, even your artifacts, may not work. The spire instead of being an inviolate god-proof sanctuary would just be a place where you're reduced to being a level 1 commoner with no magic items versus a level 50 opponent.

On another topic, the Deck of Many Things, even if you could cheat it (which you probably can't) wouldn't help you that much. Even if you manage to instantly become a level 10 wizard or something along those lines with it by winning xp, you're still just going to be a mid-level character versus a greater deity. The two cards that MIGHT help are the Fates card and the Vizier. Perhaps fates could stop the deity from coming to kill you in the first place, and the vizier would force the DM to come up with a solution to your dilemma.

[hamishspence]

Plus, can some please clarify this - does the spire just negate godly powers or does it also stop ALL magic. If it does then your items, even your artifacts, may not work. The spire instead of being an inviolate god-proof sanctuary would just be a place where you're reduced to being a level 1 commoner with no magic items versus a level 50 opponent.

Depends how close you are- with deity-level powers being the last to go.

So, one you've stopped deity level power completely, it will be (effectively) an antimagic field- Limited Magic trait for all spells.

If a deity (especially a greater deity) can engage you a little way out from that innermost zone, their deity powers will work, whereas most of your spells won't (the most powerful spells are lost first, then weaker ones the closer you go.)

[Samb]

Inner most layer blocks ALL magic including and up greater gods' powers. While they still have 20-50 levels on your commoner their casting levels and main strength is negated.

Sigil is another option but there the gods' proxies and clerics can attack you with impunity. While in the outlands the odds work more in your favor.

You only lose use of magical items, while they lose spells, SLA, divinity. The basic point is that they are more at a lose than you. Your artifact may not work but neither will the god's, who can have every slot as an artifact (since they can make them and suffer no I'll effects from them).

[hamishspence]

Very few gods have the Craft Artifact salient divine ability.

[Lysander]

Here are a few general strategies. If you can figure out which items will let you accomplish any of these please suggest them.

1. Leveling up - You as a commoner can't do anything, but maybe you could as an epic wizard. Probably not but it can't hurt. Plus, maybe you'll find a way to become a deity yourself like Vecna did. Perhaps you can find a fast time plane that'll give you thousands of years to level up in before 24 hours passes on the material plane.

2. Recruit an ally - Could you recruit another deity to protect you? You'd need to find another greater deity willing to risk themselves for you. Kind of unlikely even with a bribe of the right item, especially considering your puny diplomacy. But not impossible.

3. Go somewhere safe - Is anywhere truly safe from a rank 20 god? This might overlap with 2 if you can take shelter in a rival god's plane.

4. Hide - Is there some method of hiding your location from a greater deity? Even Mind Blank won't cut it.

5. Trickery - Make the god think you're dead, but in reality escape. Pretty hard to pull off.

6. Defense - Find someplace that forces the deity to come in person, then spring a nasty surprise. What you could surprise them with is hard to figure out.

7. Offense - Load yourself up with attack gear and plunge into their plane! Kill them...somehow...

8. Become something unkillable - Is there time to become pure goodness and merge with the essence of Celestia? Or something else like that? A greater deity might be able to undo whatever you attempt.

9. Die, but do so in a preferable way - Assuming the deity is coming to destroy your soul or imprison it so you stay dead, maybe you can die in a way that makes sure you get to enjoy an afterlife.

10. Convince the god not to kill you - Maybe with an item that boosts your diplomacy to epic levels. But even if you manage to make hostile god merely unfriendly they'll probably still kill you with a thought.

[Samb]

A wish can affect a god. You can replicate damage spells through it, for example, and assuming the god is not immune to said damage, he is affected.

Don't make generalized statements unless you are certain they are correct.

That's not what I was referring to and you know it. How is what you listed anywhere near the craziness of "wish the god away" or "wish the god was psionic"? Or "wish I was a god as well". These suggestion are well beyond the bounds of what wish can do.

Next time don't act like a semantics Nazi unless you want to look like one.

[Taelas]

That's not what I was referring to and you know it. How is what you listed anywhere near the craziness of "wish the god away" or "wish the god was psionic"? Or "wish I was a god as well". These suggestion are well beyond the bounds of what wish can do.

Next time don't act like a semantics Nazi unless you want to look like one.

You need to start looking at what precisely it is you're saying. You said this:


Wish will NOT affect gods. It explicitly says so, so please stop saying "wish this , wish that" because it will not work unless you are target and even then wish will NOT grant divine ranks to you.

The only true part of that statement is the latter -- wish will not grant divine ranks. Wish can affect gods, however. Nowhere is it specifically said it cannot. (They are easily immune to many of the effects wish can accomplish.)

If you simply meant, "You people are attributing far too much power to wish; it can't do all that" then say that.

[Lysander]

The above argument is a little ironic because wish probably LITERALLY can't affect a greater god in any way. They're almost certainly going to make any saving throw you send their way, resist whatever damage you throw at them, or counterspell the wish in the first place. Worst case scenario for them they use alter reality to instantly undo the wish in the following round.

[Taelas]

Like I said, they are easily immune to many of the effects, but you can still cast the spell at them. It's not as if it fizzles.

[Cisturn]

give said commoner a sphere of annihilation in a brittle antimagic case, when he see's the diety, have him throw the sphere, the case shatters when it hits the god, and boom! xp time

[Flickerdart]

give said commoner a sphere of annihilation in a brittle antimagic case, when he see's the diety, have him throw the sphere, the case shatters when it hits the god, and boom! xp time
If the deity lets itself be seen then it's a Rank 20 God of Being Retarded. Blast the impudent fool with Alter Reality, Divine Blast, Call Creatures, Hand of Death, Life and Death, using Supreme Initiative to go first even if it chooses to close within encounter range, which it doesn't have to because many Salient Divine Abilities (such as Life and Death) have infinite range. Or it can just possess/control the Commoner in any number of ways and have him kill himself.

[Clovis]

give said commoner a sphere of annihilation in a brittle antimagic case, when he see's the diety, have him throw the sphere, the case shatters when it hits the god, and boom! xp time

Not counting the fact that a level 20 god's AC would be stratospheric. A 1st lvl commoner's BAB is not going be enough. Then, the said god might have divine dodge SDA, which means 70 % chance of missing. Divine shield would block the sphere anyway in the case of a lucky 20. But, would even a sphere of annihilation really destroy a god? It sucks them into the void and god's have been known to come back from there... And would it work in the outlands (provided the commoner would have the knowledge of the place and the means to go there).
All in all, I don't see how a commoner could kill a god. Them gods have gawdawful weapons to begin with, things like the Ruby Scepter of Hell, the Wand of Orcus etc. To really harm a god, you need weapons of this ilk and they are kind of hard to get since their owners probably like them very much. Like Sauron and his ring.

[Amiel]

Pray that the deity overlooks you. Hide in a corner, cower, slobber incessantly to detract attention.

If a divine rank 20 deity is here for the express purpose of killing you, there is not a lot you can do. A deity's SDAs are never subject to spell resistance and are immune to antimagic effects.

Even with a poor Dex, it may have Supreme Initiative, which'll mean it will always go first. It can then lay the smack down with Mass Divine Blast or Divine Blast, or it can affect Mass Life and Death.
If you are still a mortal when this absolute hurt commences, you are gone forever. There are no saves to avoid the above effects.

If the deity deems you to be good sport, she or he cause a Divine Splendor effect. You die immediately as its deific presence exerts itself upon your area. There is also no save.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, a divine rank 20 deity is going to have 25 SDAs.

[Phantom.exe]

-Remind the GM of that time you gave him/her a ride home when their car broke down, and they kept on saying "I owe you one" over and over, but you said, "No, it's fine," only to be met with , "no, really, I owe you one" and call in the assumed favor

-Explain to your other commoner friends and family how the deity is coming and that you need to work together. Get everyone in a line (or if you don't have enough people, a circle) and grab a few items, ideally gardening implements.
Wait for a deity to either show up to gloat, or possibly have any sort of physical manifestation (I.E. a champion or avatar showing up to herald your demise).
Start passing the tools around to each other. Passing an item is a free action, so you can take as much time as you want passing it around. In a round, you can speed up the passing to theoretically infinite speeds, as the item has traveled from one person to another in theoretically 'no time', giving it increasing mass and acceleration. After all, someone's handing you an item, and you're handing it to someone else as a free action. What's the big deal?

Have someone let go of the infinitely sped-up pitchfork and let it hurl at your target. Pray the GM is still in a good mood after that joke you made about Orcs. (What do you call an Orcish Scavenger? An Orchealogist."

[Procyonpi]

I use an item that lets me cast ice assassin once (custom item, costs 56,650 gp [17×9×50+5,000×5+20,000]). I use it with the hair. I order the ice assassin (who has all the abilities of the deity) to make me into a Divine Proxy, making me a rank 1 demigod. I find a bunch of squirrels. I make one a Divine Proxy, making me Divine Rank 0. I order my ice assassin to make me a Divine Proxy again. Repeat until I have made 20 squirrels into Divine Proxies (and my ice assassin is Divine Rank 0). Then I recall my Divine Ranks. I am Divine Rank 20. I make my portfolio revolve around Diplomacy.


Isn't this effectively just "make yourself punpun?"
I mean, the squirrel deity thing comes directly from the original pup-pun post, down to the small furry animal used.

[absolmorph]

Isn't this effectively just "make yourself punpun?"
I mean, the squirrel deity thing comes directly from the original pup-pun post, down to the small furry animal used.
No, this is just one of the things Pun-pun does. He has arbitrarily high HP, saves, ability scores, Hit-Dice, AC, etc. This just makes you a deity.

[Procyonpi]

No, this is just one of the things Pun-pun does. He has arbitrarily high HP, saves, ability scores, Hit-Dice, AC, etc. This just makes you a deity.

I know, I was using the term loosely, although it does replicate one of the pun-pun methods.

I define "making yourself pun - pun" as using any form of infinite loop exploit to give yourself infinite stats / abilities etc.

[absolmorph]

I know, I was using the term loosely, although it does replicate one of the pun-pun methods.

I define "making yourself pun - pun" as using any form of infinite loop exploit to give yourself infinite stats / abilities etc.
There's an end to the given trick, though. They stopped at DR 20.

[Procyonpi]

There's an end to the given trick, though. They stopped at DR 20.

lol. They could have kept on going, though, which is the point. It uses holes in the rules to get an arbitrarily high amount of something for nothing.

[Prodan]

Step 1: Amass great wealth for your friends and family.
Step 2: Make it so that your alignment is Good and you worship a powerful deity with a really fun afterlife, such as someone who hosts the occasional orgy, for example, and has a really nice library.
Step 3: Kill yourself painlessly.
Step 4: Have sex. Read books. Laugh as you are now untouchable.
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit.

[Amiel]

People tend to overestimate Pun-pun's abilities when it comes to gods; were the opponents mortals, the scenario would conclude in Pun-pun's favour. Where the enemy is a deity, it is Pun-pun who is obliterated.

Unless Pun-pun's divinity arises from a non-mutable source (ie always existing as opposed to coming from magic or external avenues), he is doomed to failure. The deity can just alter reality to envelop the area in a divine-wrought antimagic field, this concludes with Pun-pun becoming mortal again.
The deity can then punish Pun-pun however it wishes.

[Procyonpi]

People tend to overestimate Pun-pun's abilities when it comes to gods; were the opponents mortals, the scenario would conclude in Pun-pun's favour. Where the enemy is a deity, it is Pun-pun who is obliterated.

Unless Pun-pun's divinity arises from a non-mutable source (ie always existing as opposed to coming from magic or external avenues), he is doomed to failure. The deity can just alter reality to envelop the area in a divine-wrought antimagic field, this concludes with Pun-pun becoming mortal again.
The deity can then punish Pun-pun however it wishes.

Ah, but Pun-Pun can use alter reality to make his divine ranks permanent. :smallsmile:

[Amiel]

Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) does not work that way, unfortunately; divine ranks are neither magical or supernatural.

[Procyonpi]

Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) does not work that way, unfortunately; divine ranks are neither magical or supernatural.

Yeah, but the granting of the divine ranks through proxy is a supernatural effect.

Furthermore, he still has infinate ability scores, hit dice, and whatever powers he wants. Plus, presumably, with an infininte INT bonus, means maxed ranks in all skills. And since he has infinate HD... yeah. You get the picture.

The whole basis of Pun-Pun's build is based on the fact that you can use Manipulate form and Alter reality abilities to take all sorts of benefits that are supposed to come from a source, and then seperate the benefits from that source, allowing you to repeat to infinity. If the benefits required the source they originally came from to fumction, you couldn't use the infinate loop tricks.

[Amiel]

The granting by proxy are the important words there; they are not intrinsically tied to Pun-pun's own essence, ergo they are not immutable. As his divinity arises from an external source (he did not grant himself divine ranks), it is also logical to assume that he can't use alter reality to render his divinity permanent. His benefactor must do so.
By which time, the opposing deity would have already reduced him to a red paste upon the bedrock.

I would argue infinity in anything would still be ineffective against a deity if you are mortal.

[Renrik]

One of each of those books that improve your intelligence, charisma, and wisdom.

One or two very powerful scrying devices. One or two very powerful communication devices.

I am going to attempt to de-convert his faith by finding something about him that is not in line with his teaching and telling it to them. Better yet, I will find it and black mail him into not killing me, knowing that if he kills me, I can probably inform a few people first, and his religion will suffer a long, slow crumble.

[Procyonpi]

The granting by proxy are the important words there; they are not intrinsically tied to Pun-pun's own essence, ergo they are not immutable. As his divinity arises from an external source (he did not grant himself divine ranks), it is also logical to assume that he can't use alter reality to render his divinity permanent. His benefactor must do so.
By which time, the opposing deity would have already reduced him to a red paste upon the bedrock.

I would argue infinity in anything would still be ineffective against a deity if you are mortal.

Okay, so maybe he couldn't technically make the divine ranks permanent through a direct use of Alter Reality. But pun-pun has ways around this. He could, for example, command the the gods created by Ice Assassin to use the Alter Reality Ability to make the proxy permanent.

Alternatively, If you view the Ice assassin path to permanent Divinity to be iffy, keep in mind that pun-pun could still use alter reality to make permanent pretty much any of the other abilities or infinate loop statistics he's giving himself besides the Divine Ranks. (His familiar could become a god, too). This includes infinate ability scores, feats, spells, and reach, just to name a few.

Pun pun could use his invincible build to go kill as may Epic dragons as he felt like in one round anywhere on any plane of existence, gaining enough XP for hundreds of levels (using the advanced dragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm) once he got past lvl 70 or so to continue gaining XP) that can't be burned off by getting rid of magic than XP from monsters slain using a magic item.

Furthermore, with Infinite Charisma, Pun-Pun could attract enough followers to gain as many permanent Divine Ranks as he wanted, that are not at all dependent on the Ice assassin spell. Once you say "Screw it, I'm making a Pun-Pun," your options are essentially limitless.

[Project_Mayhem]

Yeah - My understanding is that Pun Pun's most powerful ability is the ability to create abilities.

eg. Ex: anything, including over-deities, that ever attempts, or will attempt to inconvenience Pun-Pun is permanently erased from history. No save. Usable aleph_0 times per day.

[Clovis]

And, when punpun has ravaged the known gods -- or long before that -- comes a time lord to investigate the disturbance. End of punpun.

But, barring punpun or bribing Ao or a time lord to do your god-killing, I don't see how a commoner could off a deity.