PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Strong Level 1 Gestalts



Zovc
2010-04-07, 07:49 PM
I am first on a DM's waiting list with a Sorcerer built for one of his campaigns, I didn't know, but the DM also has a Gestalt campaign running. Apparently, one of the gestalt campaign's players has stopped responding (A Rogue//Warlock).

So, I've been informed that the first spot open will likely be a gestalt one, while I have no problem with this, I wasn't prepared.

Classes that seem like they could be fun to use (in no particular order):

Beguiler
Crusader
Duskblade
Factotum
Marshal
Paladin
Psion
Swordsage
Warblade
Warmage

That's all off of the top of my head, but combinations don't have to use both of those, those are just classes that sound interesting.

JaronK
2010-04-07, 07:53 PM
Factotum//Warblade would be great at level 1, and continue to be fun. If you want to be a ninja type, Beguiler//Factotum or Factotum//Swordsage would be decent too but not as strong right out of the box.

JaronK

HunterOfJello
2010-04-07, 07:57 PM
Melee characters are strongest at levels 1-5 while spellcasters really bloom after 6 or so.


The 'melee characters rock at low levels' rule applies doubly so to the Tome of Battle classes. Also, the ToB classes don't start sucking after level 5 like most melee classes.


Therefore, I would suggest a ToB class like Warblade or Swordsage (the two fun ones) and another class that will have good synergy with them like Factotum for Warblade or a Dex/Wis type class for Swordsage.

Glimbur
2010-04-07, 08:00 PM
Swordsage//Cleric? Warblade//Wizard? Totemist//Barbarian? Incarnate//Warblade? Fighter//Samurai (just kidding).

Amphetryon
2010-04-07, 08:01 PM
Warblade//Beguiler is an under-appreciated gestalt combo that can handle most threats and run well on just INT and DEX.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-07, 08:06 PM
Depends on what you want to do.

Swordsage // Druid rocks - a Riding Dog animal companion is a bit of a fighter, you've got Full Casting, Tome of Battle Maneuvers, and wisdom synergy.

A Ninja//Druid rocks as well - skillmonkey, lots of Wisdom synergy, Full Caster for later on, and an animal companion for a fighter early on.

Factotum//Anything Int-based does very well; Warblade, Wizard, Psion - all are good choices to pair with a Factotum.

An Elan Warblade//Psion is ridiculously difficult to kill. Especially if you take Elan Resilience, Enhanced, from Complete Psionic.

What do you want to do?

Zovc
2010-04-07, 08:21 PM
What do you want to do?

A full base attack bonus seems nice, so does a big hit die.

Spellcasting seems like icing, not that there is anything wrong with icing. I must admit that limiting armor options doesn't seem like the best idea.

Skillmonkeying seems like a nice thing to bring to the table, too.

Warblade//Beguiler looks like it can do all of that to some extent. It's not like I want to cast anything other than Sleep or Color Spray at first level, anyways.

What should I do with 32 point buy as a Warblade//Beguiler, and what LA +0 race should I choose? Lesser Planetouched are allowed.

For some reason, I keep thinking of "ninja" when I think of that class combination, what sort of character do those two classes together make you think of?

Jack_Simth
2010-04-07, 08:34 PM
A full base attack bonus seems nice, so does a big hit die.

Okay... so... Warblade on one side.


Spellcasting seems like icing, not that there is anything wrong with icing. I must admit that limiting armor options doesn't seem like the best idea.

Spellcasting isn't icing - it's planning for the future. See, most meatshields are fairly high on relative personal power at lower levels, but fairly low on relative personal power at higher levels. Most full casters are fairly low on relative personal power at lower levels, but fairly high on relative personal power at higher levels. Skillmonkeys are about in the middle at most levels.

So when you gestalt, you want a Skillmonkey//Full Caster or a Meatshield//Full Caster.

Also:
Full Caster doesn't have to use actual spells. There's a few pseudo-casters out there that will fit the bill, most notably in Psionics: A Psion (Expanded Psionic Handbook and the System Reference Document; Int-based), Wilder (Expanded Psionic Handbook and the System Reference Document; Cha-based), or Ardent (Complete Psionic; Wis-based) are Full Casters, they just use a different system... and armor doesn't interfere with their casting. They make a great pairing with meatshields for that reason.


Skillmonkeying seems like a nice thing to bring to the table, too.

Warblade//Beguiler looks like it can do all of that to some extent. It's not like I want to cast anything other than Sleep or Color Spray at first level, anyways.

What should I do with 32 point buy as a Warblade//Beguiler, and what LA +0 race should I choose? Lesser Planetouched are allowed.

Either: Int > Con > Dex > Str > Cha > Wis or: Int > Con > Str > Dex > Cha > Wis. But Int and Con are your first two priorities. Then comes Dex (if you want a more defensive build), or Str (if you want a more offensive build).


For some reason, I keep thinking of "ninja" when I think of that class combination, what sort of character do those two classes together make you think of?
Doesn't matter, you're the one playing. If you think "Ninja", then play up that angle.

strider24seven
2010-04-07, 09:30 PM
Warblade//Anything is awesome.

Factotum//Anything is awesome, but less so at level 1. It really blooms after level 3.

Warblade//Factotum is awesome at level 1, really awesome at level 3, and stupidly powerful after level 8.

+1 for Elan Warblade/Psion.

Actually, Barbarian//Psychic Warrior is pretty awesome with Claws of the Beast and Bear Totem.

Eldariel
2010-04-07, 09:54 PM
Warblade//Wizard would be an incredible level 1 Gestalt; you have insane all-day powers, all the Wizardly defenses (Abrupt Jaunt!!) and ~4 encounter enders handy, along with mayhap a self-buff or two (Enlarges, True Strikes, the like). Factotum doesn't really kick in for another handful of levels; it's quite good, but on these levels, not as strong as Warwizard.

4+Int skills from decent list means you're a decent skill monkey too, though it's true that Beguiler would do that better (but Wizard, on the other hand, does combat casting, protection and everything else better; Tier 1 and all). Then again, since Wizard wasn't on your original list, I'll just shut up now.

deuxhero
2010-04-07, 09:58 PM
Play a housecat if you are playing at level one. You will be quite powerful. For the rest of your Gestalt, be a Factotum 8/Warblade x//Wizard/Malconvoker simply for the luz that being a cat will bring

Failing that, blow your starting wealth on combat pets.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-07, 10:06 PM
Focused Specialist Wizard // Warblade

You get the casty potential, the beatstick option, and you're solid.

Optimystik
2010-04-07, 10:28 PM
Totemist//DFA is a nice choice. Con-focused, so you get tons of HP, and you'll be an excellent tank even with just light armor. All good saves too. And since you start out with Dragontouched, you don't have to burn a feat on it to get those fun Dragon melds in DM, like Dragon Tail.

gorfnab
2010-04-07, 11:57 PM
Warforged Artificer // Warblade - self repairing tank
Binder // Crusader - very versatile
Marshal // Crusader - strong party buffer
Dragon Shaman // Crusader - secondary healer, decent melee
Warlock // Crusader - with Eldritch Glaive you can cover both melee and ranged combat

CockroachTeaParty
2010-04-08, 12:11 AM
I'll second the Dragonfire Adept / Incarnum combo. Incarnate or Totemist are fine choices.

I'm really learning to love the DFA. I'm almost inclined to say that every adventuring party should include one. Unlimited free identification of magic items, and practically guaranteed damage every round. Much better than warlock.

Optimystik
2010-04-08, 12:17 AM
I'll second the Dragonfire Adept / Incarnum combo. Incarnate or Totemist are fine choices.

I'm really learning to love the DFA. I'm almost inclined to say that every adventuring party should include one. Unlimited free identification of magic items, and practically guaranteed damage every round. Much better than warlock.

In a straight comparison I agree with you, but the PrCs and Crafting bonuses give Warlocks the edge I'd say.

Zovc
2010-04-08, 02:01 AM
There was a thread on the Wizards forums that had every race with a +0 LA... I can't seem to find it. I'm sure someone knows where it is!

Eloel
2010-04-08, 02:11 AM
Focused Specialist Wizard // Warblade

You get the casty potential, the beatstick option, and you're solid.

'Options' are not the best way to use your gestalt levels on. A Factotum/Chameleon non-gestalt has the same options, if a bit lower level.
You're looking for things that stack, or synergize well. That usually means a passive class and an active class together.

Warblade sure can be played 'passive' to stack with other stuff, but really, in a Wizard//Warblade or Psion//Warblade combo, you're taking the Warblade for stances and counters - not strikes and boosts, you won't be a beatstick.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-04-08, 03:57 AM
'Options' are not the best way to use your gestalt levels on. A Factotum/Chameleon non-gestalt has the same options, if a bit lower level.
You're looking for things that stack, or synergize well. That usually means a passive class and an active class together.

Warblade sure can be played 'passive' to stack with other stuff, but really, in a Wizard//Warblade or Psion//Warblade combo, you're taking the Warblade for stances and counters - not strikes and boosts, you won't be a beatstick.It's less optimal to focus on the Warblade side, sure, even if you polymorph yourself into a War Troll and go to town. But it's also less optimal to play a Warblade than to play a Wizard. What I'm saying is that Wizard is versatile enough to provide real options to a warblade and act as a de-facto passive side with all those buffs. Druid/Swordsage might do it better, but that has a much different feel.

NotMe
2010-04-08, 04:06 AM
While Warblade / Beguiler is a favourite of mine, I think that for low level play the Warblade / Psion is at least as strong an option (mainly due to the increased range of armour), while still being good over 20 levels. Psion can also be a better option if you want to operate as a gish, rather than just a caster, though beguiler is better if you place more value on stealth, trapfinding and skills.

Either one is a very good long term option in gestalt.

strider24seven
2010-04-08, 09:26 AM
'Options' are not the best way to use your gestalt levels on. A Factotum/Chameleon non-gestalt has the same options, if a bit lower level.
You're looking for things that stack, or synergize well. That usually means a passive class and an active class together.
.

But Factotum/Chameleon in gestalt can be absolutely awesome, and synergizes with everything, especially if it's Int-based. Chameleon gets you arcane AND divine casting up to 6th level, at a great caster level. Factotum gets you reliability outside of combat, as well as the ability to nova and blow past enemies with DR/SR.

Factotum11/Chameleon9//Wizard 20 has absurd casting potential.
Factotum11/Chameleon9//Psion 20 has absurd blasting potential.
Factotum11/Chameleon9//Warblade 20 has absurd tanking potential.
And so on.

It's not level 1, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Person_Man
2010-04-08, 09:43 AM
Incarnate//Crusader is essentially an unstoppable tank at level 1.

Incarnate brings DR 4/magic from Astral Vembraces plus 2d6 retributive fire damage from Mantle of Flame (although you'll need/want to be an Incarnum race so that you can get a bonus point of essentia needed to keep both powered up). And remember that every morning you can swap out your soulmeld for other stuff if you get bored of this combo. At higher levels Incarnate basically gives you every defensive and buff option you could ask for - concealment, SR, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, flight, souped up Deflect Arrows, boosts to-hit, damage, AC, most Skills (including Tumble and UMD), etc.

Crusader brings full BAB, d10 hit die, heavy armor, Steely Resolve (delayed damage) 5, vampiric healing from the Martial Spirit stance (vampiric healing), and some excellent maneuvers. At higher levels you might want to multi-class into Warblade or PrC, or you can just stick with Crusader and become the ultimate damage sponge.

The only real problem is potential MAD, but that can easily be solved by careful Soulmeld and Maneuver selection - just avoid things with Save DCs.

Indon
2010-04-08, 09:45 AM
Factotum//Incarnate is like a factotum but, believe it or not, even more factotumy as the Incarnate's abilities consist of access to a bunch of miscellaneous bonuses to things like skills, and a few minor spell-like powers.

strider24seven
2010-04-08, 09:54 AM
Factotum//Incarnate is like a factotum but, believe it or not, even more factotumy

I believe the words you are looking for are maior factoto.

Actually, it would be qualis factotum, sed maior factoto.
"Just as a Factotum, but more than a Factotum.

Zeta Kai
2010-04-08, 10:21 AM
IMO, a Wizard//Factotum or a Swordsage//Druid would be your best bet. Both have good ability synergy (INT & WIS, respectively), & have class features that play off of each other well. At level one, neither is invinceable, but they both grow up to be power-beasts very quickly, & have the potential to outshine anyone else in a campaign at every level.

Amphetryon
2010-04-08, 10:51 AM
<snip>
Warblade//Beguiler looks like it can do all of that to some extent. It's not like I want to cast anything other than Sleep or Color Spray at first level, anyways.

What should I do with 32 point buy as a Warblade//Beguiler, and what LA +0 race should I choose? Lesser Planetouched are allowed.

For some reason, I keep thinking of "ninja" when I think of that class combination, what sort of character do those two classes together make you think of? As one who suggested the combo, I'd consider Dragonborn (Wings aspect) with Snow Elf as the base race. +2 to CON, -2 to CHA, Wings.

I'd assign 32 points of stats as 14 14 12 16 12 10, for a final adjustments to 14 14 14 16 12 8. The 2 points in CHA are entirely optional - a habit from my old DM - and you could just as easily beef up HP further by swapping the DEX and CON scores.

Draz74
2010-04-08, 10:53 AM
Incarnate brings DR 4/magic from Astral Vembraces plus 2d6 retributive fire damage from Mantle of Flame (although you'll need/want to be an Incarnum race so that you can get a bonus point of essentia needed to keep both powered up). And remember that every morning you can swap out your soulmeld for other stuff if you get bored of this combo. At higher levels Incarnate basically gives you every defensive and buff option you could ask for - concealment, SR, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, flight, souped up Deflect Arrows, boosts to-hit, damage, AC, most Skills (including Tumble and UMD), etc.

Also, if you take the right Soulmelds and feats, Incarnate specialized in Dissolving Spittle is just plain nasty at Level 1 in terms of damage output. 3d6 acid damage. Every turn. As a ranged touch attack. Yikes. That's triple the damage of a Warlock.

strider24seven
2010-04-08, 10:58 AM
Yes, Incarnates are brutal at low levels.
Yes, Tome of Battle is brutal at low levels.

So, Crusader//Incarnate is super brutal at low levels.

Person_Man
2010-04-08, 11:36 AM
Also, if you take the right Soulmelds and feats, Incarnate specialized in Dissolving Spittle is just plain nasty at Level 1 in terms of damage output. 3d6 acid damage. Every turn. As a ranged touch attack. Yikes. That's triple the damage of a Warlock.

IIRC, Dissolving Spittle damage is only 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested). So at first level it's a max of 2d6 damage (unless you invest in the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat - which is not a good idea unless you intend to super specialize in Dissolving Spittle). But on the up side, if you have a familiar or animal companion you can take the Share Soulmeld feat, and have your pet use Dissolving Spittle every round as well. So 4d6 ranged touch every round at first level is an excellent (although boringly repetitive) option.

Good catch Draz.

Gnaeus
2010-04-08, 11:36 AM
Also, if you can take LA or monster class levels on one side of the gestalt, they are often very strong. For example, Half-dragon is actually a little weak for melee, because you lose 3 levels of HD, BAB and saves, but a Warblade 1 //draconic template advancing to warblade 3//Half Dragon is a killer. This may or may not be legal under any individual DM's interpretation of Gestalt.

Critical
2010-04-08, 11:41 AM
Cleric//Crusader. When someone complains about you being too powerful, say that the classes were picked for flavor reasons. :smallbiggrin:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-08, 11:45 AM
My favorite Gestalt Combos:

Paladin of Slaughter 10/Blackguard 10//Hexblade3/Battledancer 1/Suel Arcanamach 4/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Phantom Knight 3/Spellsword 2 - Gish with cool flavor

Archivist 9/Contemplative 1/Walker in the Waste 10//Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Lorekeeper 12/Archmage 2 - No matter how you slice it, the "Bookworm" build will always be cool...

Spell to Power Erudite 15/Arch Psion 5//Generalist 15/Archmage 5 - EVERYTHING in almost every book...

Monk 1/Druid 19//Ninja 10/Assassin 10 - Hippie with a shapeshift and a free blow. Sign me up!

and my fave:

Warblade//Swordsage - The ultimate Master of the Nine

pffh
2010-04-08, 11:52 AM
Are psions affected by heavy armor? If not Then a Crusader//Psion (Egoist) sounds like fun.


Cleric//Crusader. When someone complains about you being too powerful, say that the classes were picked for flavor reasons. :smallbiggrin:

Or that but make the cleric a cloistered cleric. More skillpoints and knowledge devotion for free.

reptilecobra13
2010-04-08, 12:37 PM
Warforged fighter/swashbuckler with a spiked chain. Build for maximum tripping and enjoy the automatic weapon finesse. For flavor, get the spiked chain and your own head enchanted with fire and become Ghost Rider.

Draz74
2010-04-08, 12:39 PM
Yeah, crazy Master of Nine builds are a favorite of mine. Something like Warblade 1//Feat Rogue 1 is pretty awesome at Level 1. Leading into something like

Warblade 20 // Rogue* 2 / Barbarian** 2 / Fighter 2 / Psychic Warrior 2 / Swordsage*** 2 / Crusader 2 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Master of Nine 5

* Feat Rogue variant
** Whirling Frenzy/Wolf Totem/Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian variant
*** Unarmed Swordsage variant


IIRC, Dissolving Spittle damage is only 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested). So at first level it's a max of 2d6 damage (unless you invest in the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat - which is not a good idea unless you intend to super specialize in Dissolving Spittle). But on the up side, if you have a familiar or animal companion you can take the Share Soulmeld feat, and have your pet use Dissolving Spittle every round as well. So 4d6 ranged touch every round at first level is an excellent (although boringly repetitive) option.

Good catch Draz.

Yeah, the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity combo was actually what I had in mind, but I freely admit it's not a great option for scaling into higher levels. Still, even 2d6 ranged touch damage is pretty awesome at Level 1, and the familiar combo is just even more brutal.


Are psions affected by heavy armor? If not Then a Crusader//Psion (Egoist) sounds like fun.

Hmmm, Psions have no problem with heavy armor, but that's some nasty MAD you've picked up there. Intelligence isn't a Crusader's favorite stat.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-08, 12:39 PM
Or....

let's think Max Damage:

Avenging Swift Druid (sacrifice Wildshape and Companion for WIS to AC, Speed Boost as a monk, and Rage as a barbarian+=Druid Lvs)//Barbarian

MachineWraith
2010-04-08, 12:47 PM
There was a thread on the Wizards forums that had every race with a +0 LA... I can't seem to find it. I'm sure someone knows where it is!

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0).

Also, +1 to Psion//Warblade. My group of friends takes turns DMing, but I've been DM the last 3 campaigns. I'm trying to convince my buddy to DM and let us play gestalt, and Psion//Warblade is what I'd be playing.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-08, 12:49 PM
This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0).

Also, +1 to Psion//Warblade. My group of friends takes turns DMing, but I've been DM the last 3 campaigns. I'm trying to convince my buddy to DM and let us play gestalt, and Psion//Warblade is what I'd be playing.

I usually play a Monk//Warblade with Kung Fu Genius

strider24seven
2010-04-08, 12:51 PM
My favorite Gestalt Combos:

Paladin of Slaughter 10/Blackguard 10//Hexblade3/Battledancer 1/Suel Arcanamach 4/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Phantom Knight 3/Spellsword 2 - Gish with cool flavor

Archivist 9/Contemplative 1/Walker in the Waste 10//Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Lorekeeper 12/Archmage 2 - No matter how you slice it, the "Bookworm" build will always be cool...

Spell to Power Erudite 15/Arch Psion 5//Generalist 15/Archmage 5 - EVERYTHING in almost every book...

Monk 1/Druid 19//Ninja 10/Assassin 10 - Hippie with a shapeshift and a free blow. Sign me up!

and my fave:

Warblade//Swordsage - The ultimate Master of the Nine

The only problem with most of these builds is that they use PrC's on both sides of the gestalt "tree." Most DM's won't allow that. If they do, they are begging you to own the campaign.

And Psion//Warblade with a dip in Carmendine Monk and 3 levels of Factotum owns everything and Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Hard. Make it 8 levels of Factotum and it owns harder.

You: "Yes, I'd like to attack this guy and trip him with my Kusari-Gama."
DM: "Okay, but he's got Karmic Strike, so lets figure this out...
-You get INT to attack, damage, AC, AC again, trip attempts, your
tumble check, your HP, your Iajutsu Focus check...

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-08, 12:53 PM
The only problem with most of these builds is that they use PrC's on both sides of the gestalt "tree." Most DM's won't allow that. If they do, they are begging you to own the campaign.

If anything, go with Monk//Warblade with Kung Fu Genius/Cardamine Monk or a Mystic Ranger//Scout with Swift Tracker

Zeta Kai
2010-04-08, 01:56 PM
So 4d6 ranged touch every round at first level is an excellent (although boringly repetitive) option.

The munchkin would say that there is nothing boring about winning.At least he would say that is I'd take the gag out of his mouth.

Also, you could use conventional tactics, & rely on your DiSp as a back-up plan. But there's no mechanical reason to hold its awesome game-breaking power is reserve. But with a familiar that shares your soulmeld, you could always split the difference: have it use the DiSp, & you can do other cool stuff.

Coidzor
2010-04-08, 02:05 PM
If anything, go with Monk//Warblade with Kung Fu Genius/Cardamine Monk or a Mystic Ranger//Scout with Swift Tracker

Don't forget Sword of the Arcane Order(drools). Didn't think that Swift Hunter worked if you were taking levels in both classes in gestalt, as it'd have to give, like, epic scout skirmish progression if it did. Unless you actually meant Swift Tracker instead of Swift Hunter.

Never really seen the utility in Swift Tracker though, unless you have to chase someone down in a time sensitive game.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-08, 02:09 PM
Don't forget Sword of the Arcane Order(drools). Didn't think that Swift Hunter worked if you were taking levels in both classes in gestalt, as it'd have to give, like, epic scout skirmish progression if it did. Unless you actually meant Swift Tracker instead of Swift Hunter.

Never really seen the utility in Swift Tracker though, unless you have to chase someone down in a time sensitive game.

FAR AFB. thanks for correcting me broski

Coidzor
2010-04-08, 02:12 PM
FAR AFB. thanks for correcting me broski

Dang, and here I was hoping there was something about Swift Tracker that I hadn't heard of yet.

true_shinken
2010-04-08, 02:12 PM
+1 for Elan Warblade//Psion. Kick some ass!

Zovc
2010-04-08, 02:20 PM
This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0).

Also, +1 to Psion//Warblade. My group of friends takes turns DMing, but I've been DM the last 3 campaigns. I'm trying to convince my buddy to DM and let us play gestalt, and Psion//Warblade is what I'd be playing.

Thanks! I'll bookmark that this time.

Out of curiosity, what combos have the best action economy at level 1? I ask that because it seems rather hard to use swift actions at level one, and those are a big part of a good action economy.

Zovc
2010-04-08, 02:28 PM
Also, I am apparently replacing the party's best trapfinder, so being competent in that department is a plus.

pffh
2010-04-08, 02:34 PM
Hmmm, Psions have no problem with heavy armor, but that's some nasty MAD you've picked up there. Intelligence isn't a Crusader's favorite stat.

Oh yeah int for some reason I was certain that psions used charisma.
*Checks book*
Bah wilder, psion, tomato, raygun.

Person_Man
2010-04-08, 02:36 PM
The munchkin would say that there is nothing boring about winning.At least he would say that is I'd take the gag out of his mouth.

Also, you could use conventional tactics, & rely on your DiSp as a back-up plan. But there's no mechanical reason to hold its awesome game-breaking power is reserve. But with a familiar that shares your soulmeld, you could always split the difference: have it use the DiSp, & you can do other cool stuff.

Well from a metagame perspective, if you choose to use the same high damage combo every round of every combat, then it's quite easy for your DM to adjust the difficulty upwards by adding more enemies and/or giving them better defenses. Ideally you want a variety of different tactics which you mix up during and between combats. Though you make a very good point that a Druid//Incarnate or something similar could easily mix things up or split up the blasting/other stuff between you and your Companion.

Zovc
2010-04-08, 03:19 PM
Lesser Tiefling gives me +2 Dex and +2 Int, that seems pretty good, but would I be better off putting those points elsewhere?

It looks like the group will be most happy with me if I have Factotum or Beguiler on one side of the gestalt (or some other class with trapfinding).

So, that puts me in Factotum//Wizard or Beguiler//Warblade, doesn't it?

Jack_Simth
2010-04-08, 05:04 PM
Thanks! I'll bookmark that this time.

Out of curiosity, what combos have the best action economy at level 1? I ask that because it seems rather hard to use swift actions at level one, and those are a big part of a good action economy.
Elan Warblade//Psion.

Elan race gets a few Immediate action defensive abilities - which eats up your Swift actions. Alternately, Warblade gets counters and boosts that use Swift actions, and you then use the Psion side to attack.

playswithfire
2010-04-08, 06:39 PM
I also like Warblade//Psion. I also tend to go pure melee, so Barbarian//Swordsage is a favorite of mine.

gorfnab
2010-04-08, 11:36 PM
Lesser Tiefling gives me +2 Dex and +2 Int, that seems pretty good, but would I be better off putting those points elsewhere?

It looks like the group will be most happy with me if I have Factotum or Beguiler on one side of the gestalt (or some other class with trapfinding).

So, that puts me in Factotum//Wizard or Beguiler//Warblade, doesn't it?

Or Factotum // Warblade which has some really awesome Int synergy. Factotum of War (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871250/Factotum_of_War)

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-09, 11:16 AM
I think my fave is still my ace with a PrC on one side:

This is the most Lawful Good character ever...

Race: Lesser Aasamir or Gold Dwarf (cuz they both are Aura of Good candidates) Saint (Yes, Saint from BoED

Class: Crusader 10/Divine Crusader 9/Contemplative 1//LA 2/Soulborn 17

Yes, this makes Soulborn NOT useless. That, and he's got full casting as a Cleric with 2 domains, full BAB, and Maneuvers. What more do you want?

Indon
2010-04-09, 01:07 PM
Don't forget Sword of the Arcane Order(drools). Didn't think that Swift Hunter worked if you were taking levels in both classes in gestalt, as it'd have to give, like, epic scout skirmish progression if it did. Unless you actually meant Swift Tracker instead of Swift Hunter.

I believe the normal ruling (I don't know the official one) is that feats like that do not work with dual progression, but will function for single progression.

So, say, Ninja 1/Monk 19//Rogue 1/Ranger 19 or something like that could benefit from that sort of feats.

Draz74
2010-04-09, 01:29 PM
I believe the normal ruling (I don't know the official one) is that feats like that do not work with dual progression, but will function for single progression.\

I think what I've seen most often is that these feats do work for both sides of Gestalt, but only up to a maximum of your character level.

Zovc
2010-04-09, 04:55 PM
For a Beguiler//Warblade, this is what I'm thinking of:

Lesser Tiefling

Str: 12
Dex: (14+2)=16
Con: 14
Int: (18+2)=20
Wis: 8
Cha: (8-2)=6

Having a +5 intelligence modifier will make it pretty hard to resist sleep/color spray ([10+1+1+5]=17 vs Will), and a lot of skill points, but is it really worth "buying" the 18?

Is there some particular feat I should take at level 1 with this class combination?

I don't know much about ToB maneuvers, but I'm thinking I should just use a two-handed weapon since I can't use a shield without disrupting my Beguiler casting.

I'm allowed to take two flaws from the SRD or from here (http://www.roleplaynexus.com/flaws.html) (with approval) in order to get a second feat. I can also take two SRD traits if I feel so inclined.

(Goes to do some "research" on maneuvers.)