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View Full Version : Small Children with Class Levels [3.5e] [My players, stay out!]



Lord of Syntax
2010-04-08, 12:38 PM
How should I have a 8 year old NPC with class levels?
What sort of modifiers should I give her?

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-08, 12:41 PM
How should I have a 8 year old NPC with class levels?
What sort of modifiers should I give her?

What do you need her for?

Because unless she's going to be in battle then Commoner 1, standard array.

Lord of Syntax
2010-04-08, 12:46 PM
Her whole raison d'ętre is combat with the PCs (Wizard levels)

SpikeFightwicky
2010-04-08, 12:48 PM
Well, according to d20 Modern's (NPC Children section (http://spikefightwicky.tripod.com/ordinaries.html), they should have –3 Str, –1 Dex, –3 Con, –1 Int, –1 Wis, –1 Cha (and likely be small sized) until they reach age 12.

I'm not sure if children stat mods were given anywhere else.

Lysander
2010-04-08, 12:49 PM
How about:

Small Size (lower speed, less carrying capacity, etc.)
-2 Str, -2 Int, +4 Cha
Otherwise as a human (bonus feat, skill points, etc.)

If enough game time passes she grows up and loses her age modifiers for standard human.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-08, 12:50 PM
Her whole raison d'ętre is combat with the PCs (Wizard levels)

Figured, but assumed I might as well get the silly obvious Q out of the way.

-4 Str
(+2 Dex)
-2/4 Con
+2 Wis
+2 Cha

Good aligned creatures need to make a Will Save to attack her (unless she's dancing with skulls etc.)

Just some maybes, I'm bad at this stuff.

Townopolis
2010-04-08, 12:55 PM
Modifiers for stats? Kids are much smaller (-1 size category) and weaker (-4? strength) than adults; also much more fragile (-4? Con). The brain doesn't finish developing until ~age 25 (-2? Int), and kids tend to lack experience (-2? Wis). Especially young children will also have penalties to Dex and Cha. I'm no expert, but I reckon a child under ~12 would have a -2 or more to Dex, and about the same for Cha until ~16.

Obviously, these modifiers are steep, but children are almost universally less apt than adults. These modifiers will go away with age.

For classes, most children will be level 1 commoners. A street urchin might have levels in rogue, I'd say no more than 2. A sorcerous child might develop early and have potentially any number of levels. A sorcerous urchin might be a beguiler. A precocious child of nobility might have levels in factotum (or noble). In general, I would avoid "warrior" archetypes. A precocious wizard's apprentice might have 1 level in wizard, but probably not.

A child who was abandoned/left at the doorstep of a monastery might have 1 level in cleric, healer, archivist, or monk (depends on what kind of monastery we're talking about).

A child who has already achieved class levels will likely be deficient in another area, such as "common" knowledge. A child monk probably trains all day and is socially underdeveloped. An urchin "never got to be a kid," an apprentice wizard might be an idiot-savant, etc...

Lord of Syntax
2010-04-08, 12:59 PM
The brain doesn't finish developing until ~age 25 (-2? Int)

That is only true of the sections dealing with judgment and attraction.


How about:

Small Size (lower speed, less carrying capacity, etc.)
-2 Str, -2 Int, +4 Cha
Otherwise as a human (bonus feat, skill points, etc.)

If enough game time passes she grows up and loses her age modifiers for standard human.

I like this the most, because she is a real threat.

WarKitty
2010-04-08, 01:03 PM
You would probably do best to make it an idiot-savant, like Smooth recommended. For a wizard child, I might say:

Str: 8
Con: 5
Dex: 10
Int: 22
Wis: 13
Cha:18

I'm pulling numbers out at random, but you get the general idea.

Taelas
2010-04-08, 01:03 PM
An 8-year old with Wizard levels? Really? :smallconfused:

Sorcerer would at least be plausible.

Anyway, I'd impose a -4 penalty to all stats, at least. Then add a Small size, lowering her Str even further (additional -2) but giving her more Dex (+2). So something like -6 Str, -2 Dex, -4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha.

If she's just an adult masquerading as a child, no penalties to mental stats, obviously.

Caliphbubba
2010-04-08, 01:06 PM
how about a shapeshifted Rakshasa(sp)? creepy devil-tiger girl.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-08, 01:07 PM
I don't see a penalty to Cha. Even if it's not the "aww they're so cute" angle, there's a lot of things in your head that say "don't attack kids". Someone who is fighting the PC's is going to know how to manipulate this.

pffh
2010-04-08, 01:10 PM
I don't see a penalty to Cha. Even if it's not the "aww they're so cute" angle, there's a lot of things in your head that say "don't attack kids". Someone who is fighting the PC's is going to know how to manipulate this.

But most kids are really bad at lying and manipulating a conversation or convincing someone to do what they want (bluff and diplomacy).

Taelas
2010-04-08, 01:13 PM
I don't see a penalty to Cha. Even if it's not the "aww they're so cute" angle, there's a lot of things in your head that say "don't attack kids". Someone who is fighting the PC's is going to know how to manipulate this.

That has absolutely jack to do with Charisma, and everything to do with having "don't hurt kids" ingrained.

A child does not have the same strength of personality they have as an adult, and they most certainly do not have more.

Children are not yet fully developed. Penalties to all stats, no exceptions. How strong the penalties are is up to interpretation -- D&D doesn't have any rules, but other d20 games do. Star Wars Saga Edition says -4 Str, Con, -2 Dex, Int, Wis, Cha. (Specifically, -1 to all stats for young adults, -3 Str, Con, -1 Dex, Int, Wis, Cha for children, and they are cumulative.)

Personally, I disagree, and would make the penalties heftier. But that's just me.

Nodwick22
2010-04-08, 01:15 PM
Unless that person is a grandparent....or they result to crying

TheYoungKing
2010-04-08, 02:09 PM
Isn't there a child NPC as head of the Silver Flame in one of the Eberron books?

EDIT: Ach, nope. Eberron Campaign Setting. Does mention her, an 11 year old who counts as an 18th level Cleric in the Church, 3rd level out on her own. Doesn't give a stat block, but it does imply that she has class levels of her own.

Grumman
2010-04-08, 02:29 PM
Her whole raison d'ętre is combat with the PCs (Wizard levels)
Then I'd suggest you rethink the character concept, because it's unsuited to an eight year old kid.

Spiryt
2010-04-08, 02:34 PM
I don't see a penalty to Cha. Even if it's not the "aww they're so cute" angle, there's a lot of things in your head that say "don't attack kids". Someone who is fighting the PC's is going to know how to manipulate this.

That's just one specific situation, and Charisma covers many things, even if it's still dump stat :smalltongue:

Charisma isn't fortunately only "don't attack me" level.


Anyway, kids should just have lower stats - one could find some exceptions, but probably not any simple enough to be put in D&D.

Siadaus_Shade
2010-04-08, 02:41 PM
I think the differences in intelligence for the age groups gets pretty moot at a point.

Infant- Of course they will have a hefty intelligence penalty, due to knowing very little.

Child- They still have a penalty, but a smaller one.

Teenager- No penalty.

Really, a lot of teenagers are much, much smarter than we steriotype them to be. It depends largely on the person, because intelligence is not only what you know, but the aptitude of the mind. And that aptitude is all over the scale, there are Thirteen year olds earning degrees, and adults no smarter than your average fifth-grader. (See what I did there?)

Charisma shouldn't be penalized except in infancy. Actually a bonus may be necessary, considering the bubbly, outgoing nature of younger kids.

No qualms about Strength or Constitution Penalties.

Dexterity should receive a bonus, kids are much more flexible than adults.

SamTheSane
2010-04-08, 02:47 PM
I will admit that it is kind of squicky having an eight year old enemy (whom your players, if they are like most people I see playing, will kill first chance they get).

Aside from that, not sure you should penalize intelligence or anything along those lines... while it may make it more 'realistic' it will also handicap your villain. One thing you might want to do is have the child take some heritage feats to give her a magical background that helps explain her exceptionally high intelligence.

As for stat changes... I would agree about making her small, and some penalties to her physical stats... or maybe have them be normal (since she is already unusual and magical, they are being enhanced unconsciously by her magical talent) and give her penalties for a couple rounds every time she is hit with a dispel.

Anyway... this is a child who managed to acquire multiple levels of wizard before turning ten... the child is exceptional.

druid91
2010-04-08, 02:55 PM
That has absolutely jack to do with Charisma, and everything to do with having "don't hurt kids" ingrained.

A child does not have the same strength of personality they have as an adult, and they most certainly do not have more.

Children are not yet fully developed. Penalties to all stats, no exceptions. How strong the penalties are is up to interpretation -- D&D doesn't have any rules, but other d20 games do. Star Wars Saga Edition says -4 Str, Con, -2 Dex, Int, Wis, Cha. (Specifically, -1 to all stats for young adults, -3 Str, Con, -1 Dex, Int, Wis, Cha for children, and they are cumulative.)

Personally, I disagree, and would make the penalties heftier. But that's just me.

As far as physical penalties, I agree whole-heartedly, Even the wisdom penalty I could agree with, Intelligence and charisma not so much. Growing up and leaving behind that Childish sense of "I can do anything" would certainly cause a hit to charisma, thus children have more.
Intelligence should be left out entirely and get neither a bonus nor a penalty. The bit about your brain not being fully developed would apply more to wisdom in my opinion then intelligence.

Those rules your talking about seem to assume that children will have little place in a campaign but a guard mission. thus it is more challenging if the child can do nothing. its not as fun if the 5 year old you are guarding puts a sword through the assassins head with no help from you now is it?

TheYoungKing
2010-04-08, 02:57 PM
Then I'd suggest you rethink the character concept, because it's unsuited to an eight year old kid.

11 year old kid. 3rd level Cleric.

Not too far off, though I'd suggest having the kid be a sorcerer.

Merk
2010-04-08, 03:13 PM
In the 3.0 DMG, there were rules for "Level 1/2" characters to facilitate 1st level multiclass. You could have experienced children essentially be level 1/2, gaining some benefits like spell slots or skill points, but not have the benefits of a full-grown level 1 character.

awa
2010-04-08, 03:16 PM
The problem with wizard is unless wizards are diffrent in your campaign setting learning to be a wizard takes a long time i would suggest sorcerer even if your only using the sorcerers fluff and the wizards mechanics.

Also this is an npc don't worry about the modifiers just pick stats for the charecter keep str and con under 10 and you will be fine

druid91
2010-04-08, 03:20 PM
But it would be so funny to have the wizard kid pick up the paladin with one hand and throw him out a window.:smallbiggrin:

WarKitty
2010-04-08, 03:39 PM
You definitely want some kind of child prodigy. The earliest children have been recorded to read is 2. Maybe some story where she gets into her father's library, reads the books, and starts casting spells.

Alternately you could have some sort of spirit entity/magic item/whatever grant her power. Say, have the ghost of a departed wizard trapped in an artifact that then bonds to the child and enables her to use all the knowledge of a full-grown wizard.

Lord of Syntax
2010-04-08, 04:09 PM
I made her a necropolitan so she just had to be 3rd level at age 8, and gave her infinity time to gain all the other levels.

Thanks for all the help.

Emmerask
2010-04-08, 04:15 PM
There are multiple possibilities why there is an 8 year old 18th level wizard:

Reincarnation (seems to be the best possibility)
Mind Rape
Some form of possession (epic magic stuff whatever ^^)

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-08, 04:20 PM
I made her a necropolitan so she just had to be 3rd level at age 8, and gave her infinity time to gain all the other levels.

Thanks for all the help.

How does she have all those years of study at age 8? Is there really a reason for her to be a wizard? NPCs are better as sorcerers anyway.

Coidzor
2010-04-08, 04:23 PM
That just opens up more questions, so I hope you have some good answers for 'em.

Zovc
2010-04-08, 04:24 PM
Unless that person is a grandparent....or they result to crying

That might make some characters want to attack the child more...

Zeful
2010-04-08, 05:02 PM
Then I'd suggest you rethink the character concept, because it's unsuited to an eight year old kid.

Ahh, but you think to small, what is a child's body to a powerful wizard? How many adventures would hesitate to think the small child they were rescuing from zombies, raised them herself, under another's will?

I've thought of using this myself, simply because the "Magic Jar" spell pretty much exists for this purpose.

Coidzor
2010-04-08, 05:10 PM
Ahh, but you think to small, what is a child's body to a powerful wizard? How many adventures would hesitate to think the small child they were rescuing from zombies, raised them herself, under another's will?

I've thought of using this myself, simply because the "Magic Jar" spell pretty much exists for this purpose.

That neatly avoids the mental stats issue quite nicely, after all.

Which is, I believe, the most contentious issue with making children with classes.

Silly Wizard
2010-04-08, 05:33 PM
It's Pathfinder, but hey- it's almost the same game.



http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement#TOC-Young-Creature-CR-1-

Young Creature [Template]
Size decrease by one category; AC reduce natural armor by –2 (minimum +0); Attacks decrease damage dice by 1 step; Ability Scores –4 Strength, –4 Con, +4 size bonus to Dex.

Lord of Syntax
2010-04-08, 05:42 PM
She is a 3rd level sorcerer, gets sick and a Necromancer dad makes her into a necropolitan.

dota600
2010-04-08, 05:48 PM
Your child wizard prodigy is right here.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3195/schierke.jpg

Damn she can even cast control weather at that age for christ sake.