[PF/Tome of Battle] Mechanical Balance input

[Frosty]

This thread is NOT about flavor or whether people like the book or not. This is about certain changes my group and I are making to ToB classes, and I want some input on what it might do to balance (although the reason why the changes were made are partially due to flavor. My friend *really* wants to strip the Swordsage or the eastern monastic monk flavor. He also wanted to completely separate Paladin from Crusader.).

We'll be using Pathfinder with a lot of 3.5 supplements, and things that relied on Concentration before (like Insightful Strike) will now be keyed off of Perception (Wis) and Warblades now have it as a Class Skill. Oh, that you must now have the appropriate Armor Proficiency to wear Mithril armor of the corresponding armor type. I.E, Mithril Breastplate requires Medium Armor proficiency.

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The Swordsage is now called the Wise Brawler. He travels the lands, trying to learn as many techniques as possible about his chosen discipline. He studies with many masters, wanting to exhaust the secrets of his art, and he often practices his art in tavern brawls. In short, he's a martial-arts junkie, but one wise enough to not get way over his head. He's managed to survive a lot of battles due to his wits, and he uses his experience to guide him in many areas.

Hitdice goes from d8 to d10.
Base Attack Bonus goes from 3/4 to 1/1

LOSES
1. Quick to Act (static bonus to initiative)
2. AC bonus (WIS to AC)
3: Sense magic
4. Desert Wind discipline
5. Tiger Claw discipline
6. Stone Dragon discipline

GAINS
Iron Heart discipline
At level 1: Quick Learner (WIS to Martial Lore and one Knowledge skill of choice)
At level 3: Insightful Reaction (WIS to all Dex checks and Dex-based skills.)
At level 7: Quick Learner (WIS to a different Knowledge skill of choice)
At level 13: Quick Learner (WIS to a different Knowledge skill of choice)
At level 19: Quick Learner (WIS to a different Knowledge skill of choice)

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The Crusader is now called the Warlord. The Warlord is a leader of men. While the Paladin also leads by example, the Paladin gains his authority from a divine source and has a very strict set of code to live by. The Warlord, on the other hand, has no such restrictions. Men follow her because of her force of personality. SHE is the reason her soldiers and underlings listen. The Warlord is the one who has pulled them through countless battles because she has the experience AND has the force of will to get her people to listen to coordinate. Her men respect her because she'll give them the tools to succeed, and she'll do what it takes to get them out alive...even if she has to break a few rules to do it. Her inspiration words can allow her men to ignore even the deadliest wounds and fight on for victory!

LOSES
Indomitable Soul (CHA to Will saves)
Smite

GAINS
Iron Heart discipline
At level 11: Double Aura Switch (Project both auras as a swift action)
Auras (Ex)

The Warlord exerts an effect on allies in her vicinity. He can learn to produce different effects, or auras, over the course of her career. The Warlord may project one minor aura and (starting at 2nd level) one major aura at a time.

Projecting an aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until the Warlord uses a free action to dismiss it or activates another aura of the same kind (major or minor). A Warlord can have an aura active continually; thus, an aura can be in effect at the start of a combat encounter even before the Warlord takes her first turn.

Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. A Warlord sizes up the enemy, allies, and the terrain, then gives allies the direction that they can use to do their best.

Unless otherwise noted, a Warlord's aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including herself) who can hear the Warlord. An ally must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher to gain the bonus. A Warlord's aura is dismissed if she is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by her allies.

A Warlord begins play knowing one minor aura of her choice. As her Warlord level increases, she gains access to new auras.

All bonuses granted by a Warlord's auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other.

Minor auras learned at: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 19
Major auas learned at: 9, 11, 13, 16, 20

Minor Aura: A minor aura lets allies add the Warlord's Charisma bonus (if any) to certain rolls.

Accurate Strike: Bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Demand Fortitude: Bonus on Fortitude saves.
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Force of Will: Bonus on Will saves.
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
Motivate Constitution: Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.
Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.
Watchful Eye: Bonus on Reflex saves.

Major Aura: Beginning at 9th level, a Warlord can project a major aura in addition to her minor aura. A major aura lets allies add the Warlord's Charisma bonus (if any) to certain rolls.

Hardy Soldiers: The Warlord's allies gain damage reduction equal to the amount of bonus the aura provides.
Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.
Motivate Care: Bonus to Armor Class.
Motivate Urgency: Allies' base land speed is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 x the amount of bonus the aura provides (maximum 20 feet bonus). For example, the allies of a Warlord with 16 Charisma add 15 feet to their base land speed.
Resilient Troops: Bonus on all saves.
Steady Hand: Bonus on ranged attack rolls.

Auras and Stances are completely separate things, even if some White Raven stances imitate auras. Their activation and deactivation are completely separate, and hence a Warlord can't switch out an aura AND a stnace on the same turn unless she has a means of getting more than one swift action per turn.

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The Warblade is now called the Edgemaster. We were going to call him the Weaponmaster, but then we realized that a true Weaponmaster would know how to use bows and other ranged weaponry :smalltongue:. Flavor-wise, he's cast as somebody who really obsesses over weapons and the tricks that one can do with them. His maneuvers are special tricks that he and others have honed, and in that way they aren't the run of the mill Fighters. The Edgemaster barely changed, to be honest, compared to the other classes.

LOSES
The ability to qualify for Fighter-only Feats at Warblade levels -2. If they want Fighter-only Feats, the gotta take Fighter levels.

GAINS
Nothing really. Except that Edgemasters are now the only class with default access to Tiger Claw. Oh, and Iron Heart is now the discipline that all martial adepts get, replacing Stone Dragon as the slut of the discipline.

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Desert Wind is now learned by none of the three ToB classes. We decided that we'll give the Monk access to Desert Wind, but we haven't come up with a maneuver and stance progression yet.

So...
Warlord: Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, White Raven
Wise Brawler: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand
Warblade: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven

Monk: Desert Wind

So...given these changes so far, what might be some balances issues we'd have to look out for? We haven't started play or anything, and we've got time to work out any kinks.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, the Wise Brawler is going to have a huge power pendulum depending on if he can get access to Knowledge Devotion. With it, excellent attack/damage boosts...without it, you've stripped him of a significant portion of his offense and defense, and exchanged it for boosts to Knowledge skills, which have extremely limited in-combat utility.

[Frosty]

He did get full BAB though. Not much, but counts for *something* And the 3rd level ability also makes the Wise Bralwer less MAD. If he takes feat where you use WIS for to-hit instead of Strength, he can pump WIS all the way and ignore DEX.

[Tinydwarfman]

He did get full BAB though. Not much, but counts for *something* And the 3rd level ability also makes the Wise Bralwer less MAD. If he takes feat where you use WIS for to-hit instead of Strength, he can pump WIS all the way and ignore DEX.

What's the incentive to wear light/no armor?

[Frosty]

What's the incentive to wear light/no armor?
No armor? None. Light armor? Their Evasion and Improved Evasion won't work in Medium or Heavy armor. Note that should the Wise Brawler pick up shield proficiencies, he can use shields and they won't interfere with any of the Wise Brawler's Class Features.

[Oslecamo]

He did get full BAB though. Not much, but counts for *something* And the 3rd level ability also makes the Wise Bralwer less MAD. If he takes feat where you use WIS for to-hit instead of Strength, he can pump WIS all the way and ignore DEX.

He still can't get Wis to damage, while a dex based swordsage could. Also, your wise brawler doesn't get wis to AC anymore so why would he dump Dex if he's wearing light armor?

Also, the crusader was seriously buffed. Smite anything is hardly a loss since he has maneuvers, and then he gets the aura to will saves to replace indomitable soul. And that's the minor auras. The major auras are some serious stuff. Divine grace for everybody in the party that stacks with greater resistance? Yes please You'll pretty much only fail saves on natural 1s.

But meh, last time I checked you were playing with spell points and recharge magic so probably won't do much harm, altough wise brawler and edgemaster may feel left behind.

[Frosty]

He still can't get Wis to damage, while a dex based swordsage could. Also, your wise brawler doesn't get wis to AC anymore so why would he dump Dex if he's wearing light armor?

Also, the crusader was seriously buffed. Smite anything is hardly a loss since he has maneuvers, and then he gets the aura to will saves to replace indomitable soul. And that's the minor auras. The major auras are some serious stuff. Divine grace for everybody in the party that stacks with greater resistance? Yes please You'll pretty much only fail saves on natural 1s.

But meh, last time I checked you were playing with spell points and recharge magic so probably won't do much harm, altough wise brawler and edgemaster may feel left behind.

I've never, to my knowledge, played with Recharge magic. My group used to do Spell points, but that was like over a year ago. I think I'll need to get to work more on the Wise Brawler some more. Maybe just change the concept entirely and make a base class Martial Adept Shadowdancer or something.

So do you think the auras themselves are overpowered? Last I checked, everyone though the Marshal class features are crap. And remember, the Warlord is a primary front-liner. She'll be prioritizing STR and CON before CHA most likely. On a 32 point-buy, which is pretty average, you're probably looking at 16, 10, 16, 10, 10, 14. If you want to use a Spiked Chain and do Tripping and Thicket of Blades shenanigans, you're probably looking at 14, 15, 14, 14, 8, 14. The 15 in dex is so after Enlarge Person you still have access to Combat Reflexes.

You're looking at a +2 to all saves here. More if you buy a cloak of Charisma.

[Kylarra]

He did get full BAB though. Not much, but counts for *something* And the 3rd level ability also makes the Wise Bralwer less MAD. If he takes feat where you use WIS for to-hit instead of Strength, he can pump WIS all the way and ignore DEX.Intuitive attack only works on simple weapons, so unless you're thinking of something different, that's not going to work.

[sofawall]

On a 32 point-buy, which is pretty average

:smallconfused:

[Frosty]

:smallconfused:

As in, 32 pt buy is commonly used.

Kylarra, my friends and I have decided to scrap the wise brawler and decided to go with a combatant with a mobility theme. Maybe call it Battledancer. Gotta think of an appropriate refresh mechanic that represents the Battledancer regaining Rythm or something.

[EpicEvokerElf]

Well, I can't see why anyone would play a warblade anymore; one of their primary draws was Iron Heart (at least for me), and giving that to everyone seems a little too good. Taking away Weapon Aptitude just seems unnecessary; if ToB is available, nobody's gonna play a fighter. If you want those feats to see the light of day ever again, give it back. If you're fine with that, feel free to cut it.

I also can't really see why anyone wouldn't take Warlord. In your point-buy example, just dump Wis (and Int and Dex, if you want a truly insane Cha). Losing a point of Wis is made up for if you gain a point of Cha - save bonus aura! I'd actually make them lose something - delayed damage pool no longer makes nearly as much sense; cutting that (and Furious Counterstrike) might balance it.

[Kylarra]

As in, 32 pt buy is commonly used.

Kylarra, my friends and I have decided to scrap the wise brawler and decided to go with a combatant with a mobility theme. Maybe call it Battledancer. Gotta think of an appropriate refresh mechanic that represents the Battledancer regaining Rythm or something.Battle Dancer is already a class from Dragon Compendium :smalltongue: You might look into it though as a base, it's sort of like a chaotic monk, but it needs boosts.

[9mm]

you wish to strip the flavor, so you change the mechanics?


*headdesk*

Swordsage becomes traveling weapon master/instructor; they existed in the west

Crusader becomes the hardy knight

Warblade stays the glory hound who happens to really good with a sword.

ToB as-is is fine for Pathfinder, leave those mechanics alone.

[Frosty]

I'm fine with it, but my friend has trouble with the flavor, so he wants me to change the mechanics so he he can see the class in a different flavor. He wants the Monk class to be the only one with an eastern monk monastic feel.

I'm currently homebrewing up the Battle-dancer, which will be fairly distinct in flavor from the Swordsage I believe.

Well, I can't see why anyone would play a warblade anymore; one of their primary draws was Iron Heart (at least for me), and giving that to everyone seems a little too good. Taking away Weapon Aptitude just seems unnecessary; if ToB is available, nobody's gonna play a fighter. If you want those feats to see the light of day ever again, give it back. If you're fine with that, feel free to cut it.

I also can't really see why anyone wouldn't take Warlord. In your point-buy example, just dump Wis (and Int and Dex, if you want a truly insane Cha). Losing a point of Wis is made up for if you gain a point of Cha - save bonus aura! I'd actually make them lose something - delayed damage pool no longer makes nearly as much sense; cutting that (and Furious Counterstrike) might balance it.
A Warblade can still spend an hour practicing and retrain his weapon-specific feats, so that part of Aptitude remains. The point remains that my friend wants Fighter to be a *distinct* option from Warblade, mechanics and flavor wise.

As for the Warlord, I'm thinking of either nuking the Major auras or getting rid of the delayed damage pool.

[Tinydwarfman]

I dislike pretty much all of the changes you've made unfortunately. Tell me, why does your friend like these classes (specifically swordsage/wise brawler), and not the others apart from class differentiation.

[Frosty]

Well it's less speicifcally "Wise Brawler" per se as much as he just wants something that he can see mechanically that makes it so the Swordsage doesn't step on the toes of the Monk. He wants the three ToB classes to NOT make the Fighter, Paladin, and Monk obsolete. So, the ToB classes can be powerful, but they should play different roles compared to the default base classes...and he has to see that mechanically in order to re-arrange the fluff mentally.

Skeleton of Battle-dancer is ready. I'll write out the full abilities later, but picture someome who can use Spring Attack to deliver standard-action maneuvers. Picture someone who gets more AC if she moves at least 10 ft in a round (and ends up at least 10 ft from where she was at the start of a round). This class can get WIS to damage most of the time, and WIS to-hit some of the time. WIS to some Knowledge skills helps if you take Knowledge Devotion.

Battledancer
d8 HD
3/4 BAB
Skills: 6+Int

Special: Must have at least one alignment aspect be Neutral

Class skills: Acrobatics (Tumble + Balance + Jump), Climb, Craft, Heal, Stealth (Hide + Move Silently), Knowledge (any, each taken separately), Martial Lore, Perception (Spot + Listen), Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim

Proficient with Light armor and no shields.


Bad Fort, Good Ref, Good Will Maneuvers Maneuvers Stances
Lv Special Known Readied Known
01 Dodge, Wise Learning 5 3 1
02 Mobility, Mobile Defense 6 3 2
03 Dance on the Move, Dance Partner 7 4 2
04 -- 8 4 2
05 Wise Learning 9 5 3
06 -- 10 5 3
07 Deadly Rhythm 11 5 3
08 -- 12 6 3
09 Evasion 13 6 4
10 Wise Learning 14 7 4
11 Improved Mobile Defense 15 7 4
12 -- 16 7 4
13 -- 17 8 4
14 Quick Switch 18 8 5
15 Wise Learning 19 9 5
16 -- 20 9 5
17 Improved Evasion 21 9 5
18 -- 22 10 5
19 Greater Mobile Defense 23 10 5
20 Multiple Partners 24 11 6

[Book Wyrm]

I'm confused as to why when you want to change the flavor of the Swordsage you took out Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw and left in Shadow Hand and Setting Sun.

Stone Dragon is just "I hit things really hard", if you don't like the "need to be in contact with the earth" thing, thats much easier to ignore than the fluff of other disciplines and would frankly make that discipline more worthwhile.

Tiger Claw is just what two weapon fighting should have been, plus I jump on you with a pointy object.

And instead you leave in the explicitly supernatural Shadow Hand maneuvers and Setting Sun which is basically judo, aikido, and soft martial arts. The favored weapons for these two disciplines even include unarmed strike, nunchaku, sai, and the siagnham; all stereotypical monk weapons.

So how does this fix remove the eastern monastic monk flavor?

[Tinydwarfman]

I'm confused as to why when you want to change the flavor of the Swordsage you took out Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw and left in Shadow Hand and Setting Sun.

Stone Dragon is just "I hit things really hard", if you don't like the "need to be in contact with the earth" thing, thats much easier to ignore than the fluff of other disciplines and would frankly make that discipline more worthwhile.

Tiger Claw is just what two weapon fighting should have been, plus I jump on you with a pointy object.

And instead you leave in the explicitly supernatural Shadow Hand maneuvers and Setting Sun which is basically judo, aikido, and soft martial arts. The favored weapons for these two disciplines even include unarmed strike, nunchaku, sai, and the siagnham; all stereotypical monk weapons.

So how does this fix remove the eastern monastic monk flavor?

indeed this was sort of what I was getting at. Does he really think that these changes will make any of the classes step less on others toes? All three classes still do their jobs far better than a fighter paladin or monk.

[EpicEvokerElf]

Warblade (or whatever you're calling it) still fills the same niche as fighter (give or take, season with crusader, add salt to taste) and kicks its behind at it. When any of these are available, nobody is gonna play a fighter (except maybe a 2-level dip for feats without losing more than 1 IL).

[Frosty]

I'm confused as to why when you want to change the flavor of the Swordsage you took out Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw and left in Shadow Hand and Setting Sun.

Stone Dragon is just "I hit things really hard", if you don't like the "need to be in contact with the earth" thing, thats much easier to ignore than the fluff of other disciplines and would frankly make that discipline more worthwhile.

Tiger Claw is just what two weapon fighting should have been, plus I jump on you with a pointy object.

And instead you leave in the explicitly supernatural Shadow Hand maneuvers and Setting Sun which is basically judo, aikido, and soft martial arts. The favored weapons for these two disciplines even include unarmed strike, nunchaku, sai, and the siagnham; all stereotypical monk weapons.

So how does this fix remove the eastern monastic monk flavor?
I'm actually giving the SS replacement Tiger Claw again. Like I said, this is the kinda stuff my friend wants me to do, so I do...in order to get access to ToB in his games. I think to him the big offender was Wisdom to AC and Desert Wind. You'll have to ask him for more details. I'm just here asking for *mechanical* input based on the fluff he wants.

It doesn't matter if these new classes are better at long as my friend *perceives* them to be different flavor-wise than the 3 core classes.

Stone Dragon has a lot of "I don't move in order to benefit from my stance" and the Battledancer is all about moving. In fact, just about all of their bonuses disappear when they stay still.

For the Warlord, do you think I should get rid of Major auras?

[EpicEvokerElf]

So warblade now doesn't have anything unique anymore?

[Book Wyrm]

What I was trying to say is that instead of mechanical fixes and creating a new class you could propose re-fluffing the material. Also, its just when the people who do complain about ToB feeling too Wuxia, Shadow Hand and Setting Sun are usually right up there with Desert Wind, not Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon.

Oh, and I wrote my comment before you posted the battle dancer, so I was only talking about your Wise Brawler, not the Battle Dancer.

And why is it so bad that the Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage step on the roles of the Fighter, Paladin, and Monk. The first three are actually good classes that continue to contribute to the group past level 6 unlike the second 3. The barbarian steps on the fighter's "role" just as much as the warblade. And melee clerics can trounce all over the paladin, kick him in the groin, and spit on him.

I feel like I'm arguing more with your friend than you, which makes me want him to come on the boards so I can yell at the source of this idiocy instead of the messenger.

And yes, at least get rid of the major auras. That should help, though I think taking away Iron Heart would also help. From what you've described he's a leader of killers, not the killer himself.

[Frosty]

The Warlord has to lead by example though, and so must be a capable soldier herself when in a fight.

And trust me, I've had to re-fluffing talk with him. No go. I hafta do this to gain access to ToB. My friend considers the core classes Sacred, and Must Not be Touched or Replaced.

Ok, I'll get rid of the Major auras then.

[9mm]

And trust me, I've had to re-fluffing talk with him. No go. I hafta do this to gain access to ToB. My friend considers the core classes Sacred, and Must Not be Touched or Replaced.


here's the problem; they don't actually replace those classes (though many suggest they should). Well built fighters deal more damage than a warblade; the only similarity between monks and swordsage is wis to ac (if you were using the unarmed swordsage he'd have a point), and and crusaders give them selves to a cause, ANY CAUSE, not just protecting those who can't protect themselves and have none of the dection, abilties of the pally. This is less to do with fluff and more to do with your DM not wanting ToB in his game; but doesn't have the gahone's to just say it.

Edit:

I'm fine with it, but my friend has trouble with the flavor, so he wants me to change the mechanics so he he can see the class in a different flavor.
If you can't point to your character sheet and say "he's an experienced dueling instructor well versed in many combat techniques that many feel are impactable for massed combat; I'm using the swordsage class to represent that" and he imeadiatly thinks of shoalin monks; no amount of homebrew fixing will change his mind.

[The Glyphstone]

Honestly, this thread should probably have ended up in Homebrew. We already have a long, extremely flammable thread on ToB's Flavor/Mechanics/Quality, and don't need two.

Frosty's specifically asking for critiques on the changes he's made to the ToB classes...let's avoid giving more ammunition to the people screaming about 'ToB fanboy fanatics' by draggin the thread off into another refluffing discussion. Frosty's friend has inextricably linked the ToB classes, their mechanics, and their 'eastern' flavor into one unit, and can't or doesn't want to separate them. We can't change his opinions by proxy.

That said, I'll follow my own advice:
Swordsage into Wise Brawler...extremely weakened, loses a good amount of what makes it special, and gains abilities that aren't that great.

Crusader into Warlord: Huge power boost. Crusaders are easily the best martial adept by themselves, gaining the Marshal's auras is only a step up - though in the process, it's removed every other ability they have synergizing with Charisma. On the other hand, the abilities they lose are both minor at best.

Warblade into Edgemaster: Weakened, even more than the Wise Brawler. Having lost its unique discipline for a much weaker one, and taken away its ability to qualify for fighter feats, there's no real reason to play one anymore.

[Tinydwarfman]

Just make sure that all this isn't for nothing. Your player will *probably* (from the sound of it) still have problems with the classes unless he is involved with the creation process.

[Frosty]

Just make sure that all this isn't for nothing. Your player will *probably* (from the sound of it) still have problems with the classes unless he is involved with the creation process.
Oh he is. I talk to him about my thoughts, and I go over all the changes with him. He gives me input, and then I try to make some changes based on his wishes.

The Wise Brawler was the first incarnation of how he wished Swordsage changed. I will try to present the Battledancer to him soon after I type out all of the abilities, since he's cool with the idea of a mobile fighter that isn't a Scout or Dervish.

He's the DM, so I've gotta keep at it until he's *happy* with it or else it's all for naught.

Glyphstone: The marshal's auras are all based off of Charisma, so losing Smite and CHA to Will saves doesn't completely remnove Charisma's usefulness. Plus, I'll be removing the major auras, and there will be an optional FEAT to take that will be the Warlord's equivalent to Double Draconic Aura.

[Oslecamo]

The Warlord has to lead by example though, and so must be a capable soldier herself when in a fight.

But the crusader isn't just a "capable" soldier, he's a bloodthirsty barbarian that can take loads of punishment while delivering serious pain back thanks to full BAB, d10 HD, heavy armor, and auto-recharge maneuvers. And you have him Iron Heart school, wich boosts his combat ability even further.

The auras aren't exactly overpowered, but they're still good. The marshall kinda sucks because it gets pretty much nothing but auras(he has a measly d8 HD and medium BAB for Pelor's sake!), but those auras are still a pretty sweet deal, and puting them on the crusader makes him the top dog of martial adepts whitout doubt. He slices, he dices, and he still buffs the party pretty well!



Ok, I'll get rid of the Major auras then.

This is much more balanced compared. I would go a little even further and just give him two-three minor auras at most. After all, just one minor aura is superior to Cha to will save, and smite 1/day isn't that hot either, so it's worth another minor aura at best.

[randomhero00]

Err I'm confused why you changed so much and renamed them. PF generally buffed classes (as in higher hps, more classes with full bab, etc.) but your nerfing them. ToB is actually something that would need the least amount of changing for an update to PF, balance wise.

[Frosty]

Err I'm confused why you changed so much and renamed them. PF generally buffed classes (as in higher hps, more classes with full bab, etc.) but your nerfing them. ToB is actually something that would need the least amount of changing for an update to PF, balance wise.

My friend feels like that the Warblade is already strong enough, and that losing Fighter-only feats won't hurt it. I think that the battle-dancer will endup being just as strong as the Swordsage once I get it done. He's not necessary for weakeneing them...just making them different.

[The Glyphstone]

Glyphstone: The marshal's auras are all based off of Charisma, so losing Smite and CHA to Will saves doesn't completely remnove Charisma's usefulness. Plus, I'll be removing the major auras, and there will be an optional FEAT to take that will be the Warlord's equivalent to Double Draconic Aura.

That's sort of what I meant - stripping out Indomitable Will and Smite left the newly added Auras as the only reason to buff Cha. That makes it more MAD, though, which is a balancing factor, and removing the major auras helps too.

The problem with the new Warblade is that it lacks any compelling reason to take it for anyone who's not a TWF build, since the Warlord and the now-full BAB Battledancer/Swordsage both have mostly-similar discipline choice and better backup options. It's still more powerful than the Battledancer/Wise Brawler, but not by much.

(Incidentally, it's very odd that you/he associates Desert Wind with eastern monks...I would have immediately given it a connotation with middle-eastern/Arabian Nights lore instead, due to the fire abilities. Shaolin kung-fu chop-socky-wocky is much more a Setting Sun or Diamond Mind area, really.)

[Tinydwarfman]

The swordsage had a nice niche as a 3/4 bab melee character that actually worked. Hopefully the battledancer will be able to fill that spot. I still think both the 'edgemaster' and the 'wise brawler' need something more, even if it's minor. WB needs more WIS synergy, as the current abilities are pretty suckish, and the edgemaster should get some kind of bonus as well, but I can't think of what, especially since he doesn't want him getting fighter stuff (as free weapon focus and specialization would be my first choice)

[Frosty]

The Battledancer will be 3/4 BAB as well. And would it help if I stripped Iron Heart from the Warlord and left it for the Battledancer and Warblade? The Battledacer will still need to take a full-round action to restore all of her maneuvers, so the Edgemaster still has a better recharge mechanic.

What suggestion for more INT synergy would you suggest?

[Tinydwarfman]

The Battledancer will be 3/4 BAB as well. And would it help if I stripped Iron Heart from the Warlord and left it for the Battledancer and Warblade? The Battledacer will still need to take a full-round action to restore all of her maneuvers, so the Edgemaster still has a better recharge mechanic.

What suggestion for more INT synergy would you suggest?

Sure, that should be good. Iron Heart has a few nice maneuvers (mithril tornado) that make a lot of sense for the battle dancer anyway.

I think the warblade/edgemaster already has pretty good INT synergy, maybe X times per day/encounter add INT to attack and damage to give it something unique though.

I really do think that any lightly armored class should have some kind of extra AC, be it like a monk's (wis to AC) or something else. I think the Wise brawler could get WIS to more varied skills, or something like that. I think the original ones were pretty good, and didn't seem to step on the monk's toes at all (except wis to AC of course).

[Frosty]

The Mobility feat gives +4 to AC against AoOs. The Battledancer gets that bonus to AC if it moves...period. And the bonus lasts until the beginning of the dancer's next turn. Think of it like a Scout's AC bonus.

The battledancer will also get WIS to damage if it moves at least 10 feet before making an attack. And Dance on the Move allows the Battledancer to use a Maneuver in the middle of Spring Attack.

There's more stuff to come.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe an ability that lets it use manuevers on AoO, and eventually a high-level ability that grants it AoO against anyone that misses it with an AoO (sort of like Karmic Strike without the AC penalty)?

[Tinydwarfman]

The Mobility feat gives +4 to AC against AoOs. The Battledancer gets that bonus to AC if it moves...period. And the bonus lasts until the beginning of the dancer's next turn. Think of it like a Scout's AC bonus.

The battledancer will also get WIS to damage if it moves at least 10 feet before making an attack. And Dance on the Move allows the Battledancer to use a Maneuver in the middle of Spring Attack.

There's more stuff to come.

I was actually talking about the Wise Brawler with the no armor thing. You should probably post the complete battledancer.

[Frosty]

The Battledancer is typically seen in a similar fashion to a gypsy. They travel from place to place, never staying for long, practicing their art...practicing their dance. They typically have "live and let live" and "go with the flow" mentalities, and as such, tend not have extreme alignments. Their reasons for joining an adventuring party varies, but the most common reason is just to see the world and have more experiences.

Battledancer
d8 HD
3/4 BAB
Skills: 6+Int

Special: Must have at least one alignment aspect be Neutral

Class skills: Acrobatics (Tumble + Balance + Jump), Climb, Craft, Heal, Stealth (Hide + Move Silently), Knowledge (any, each taken separately), Martial Lore, Perception (Spot + Listen), Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim

Proficient with Light armor and no shields.
Allowed Disciplines: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw


Bad Fort, Good Ref, Good Will Maneuvers Maneuvers Stances
Lv Special Known Readied Known
01 Dodge, Wise Learning 5 3 1
02 Mobility, Mobile Defense 6 3 2
03 Dance on the Move, Dance Partner 7 4 2
04 -- 8 4 2
05 Wise Learning 9 5 3
06 -- 10 5 3
07 Mobile Defense +2 11 5 3
08 Deadly Rhythm 12 6 3
09 Evasion 13 6 4
10 Wise Learning 14 7 4
11 -- 15 7 4
12 Mobile Defense +4 16 7 4
13 -- 17 8 4
14 Quick Switch 18 8 5
15 Wise Learning 19 9 5
16 -- 20 9 5
17 Improved Evasion, Mobile Defense +6 21 9 5
18 -- 22 10 5
19 -- 23 10 5
20 Multiple Partners, Wise Learning 24 11 6


Maneuver Recovery: A Battledancer recovers her maneuvers by spending a full-round action regaining her rhythm and flow. This does no provoke attacks of opportunity, and the Battledancer counts as having moved 10 feet for the purposes of class abilities and feats.

Wise Learning (Ex): The wandering Battledancer comes across many things and adds it to her life experience, much like the bard. Unlike, the bard, however, the Battledancer has more than just a collection of esoteric and obscure facts. No mere tour guide, she is able to use her intuition and learn much specialized information quickly. At 1st level, she adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to Martial Lore and one Knowledge skill of her choice. At 5th level and every 5 levels after that, she chooses one more Knowledge skill to add her Wisdom bonus to. A Battledancer cannot choose the same skill twice in twice.

Dodge: At 1st level, a Battledancer receives Dodge as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Mobility: At 2nd level, a Battledancer receives Mobility as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Mobile Defense (Ex): At 2nd level, a Battledancer begins to understand the benefits of keeping on the move. During her turn, if the Battledancer moves at least 10 feet, then she retains the AC bonus granted by Mobility until the beginning of her next turn, and the AC bonus applies against all attacks. The AC bonus granted by the Mobility feat increases by 2 at levels 7, 12, and 17, for a total of +10 at level 17.

Dance on the Move (Ex): At 3rd level, a Battledancer can make attacks without stopping. This ability functions identically in all aspects to the feat Spring Attack, except that a Battledancer is allowed to use a Maneuver in place of an attack action, if desired. The Maneuver cannot have an initation action of Full-Round action or longer.

Special: Dance on the Move can be used in place of Spring Attack to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability.

Dance Partner (Ex): At 3rd level, a Battledancer may, as a Standard action, designate an opponent within 30 feet as her Dance Partner. A Battledancer gains a bonus on attack rolls made against her Dance Partner equal to her Wisdom bonus (if any) for as long as the opponent remains the Battledancer's Dance Partner. Furthermore, if the Dance Partner provokes an attack of opportunity from the Battledancer, the Battledancer may initiate a Maneuver in place of an attack action, if desired. The Maneuver cannot have an initiation action of Full-Round action or longer. A Battledancer may use this ability up to her Wisdom modifier times per encounter (minimum 1). Once selected, the Dance Partner remains the Battledancer's Dance Partner until the Battledancer chooses another Dance Partner or until the encounter has ended.

Deadly Rhythm (Ex): At 8th level, a Battledancer has learned how to use her flow to add a deadly grace to her attacks. If she moves at least 10 feet before attacking, she gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Wisdom bonus (if any). The bonus lasts until the beginning of her next turn.

Evasion (Ex): Gained at 9th level. Same as the Rogue's ability.

Quick Switch (Ex): At 14th level, a Battledancer has learned how to be adaptable to the changing conditions of battle. She may designate her Dance Partner as an Immediate action instead of a Standard action.

Improved Evasion (Ex): Gained at 17th level. Same as the Rogue's ability.

Multiple Partners (Ex): At 20th level, a Battledancer can tango and keep up with more than one Battle Partner at once. When she designates Battle Partners, she may choose a number of opponents equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).

[Tinydwarfman]

It looks very nice. I'd make a slightly more constant AC increase for Mobile defense. Keep the bonuses at those level, but have it be a steady increase. I have deadly rhythm be an attack bonus, or at least have an attack counterpart to deadly rhythm. Otherwise it looks very good. may be move dance partner up to 4th for less dead levels, and maybe another ability at levels like 12 where you gain nothing except a new known maneuver, but that's not a huge issue. Looks good overall. I would still re-think your discipline choices though. Desert Wind sounds perfect for this class. Maybe a mix of desert wind and Iron Heart that takes the skirmish maneuvers from each discipline.

[Frosty]

Ok, so more like a +2, +2, +2 increase instead of a +3, +3 increase in AC?

Do you think that making Deadly Rhythm apply to Attack instead of Damage is necessary for the Battledancer to work? In theory, if they stick with Simple weapons, they can double up Wis to hit with Intuitive Attack. Right now if they did it, they'd just get both Wis to attack and Wis to damage, effectively letting them use Wis as the main attack stat.

Yeah some desert wind stuff are good, but I'm not sure my friend wants to keep track of a separate discipline for them. We can get a lot of good dancing stuff with the other things (even different forms of dancing!)

[Tinydwarfman]

Ok, so more like a +2, +2, +2 increase instead of a +3, +3 increase in AC?

Do you think that making Deadly Rhythm apply to Attack instead of Damage is necessary for the Battledancer to work? In theory, if they stick with Simple weapons, they can double up Wis to hit with Intuitive Attack. Right now if they did it, they'd just get both Wis to attack and Wis to damage, effectively letting them use Wis as the main attack stat.

Yeah some desert wind stuff are good, but I'm not sure my friend wants to keep track of a separate discipline for them. We can get a lot of good dancing stuff with the other things (even different forms of dancing!)

Yea, you could probably put in a table for it, like this:

{table=head]|Mobility Bonus

1st|
4

2nd|
4

3rd|
4

4th|
5

5th|
5

6th|
5

7th|
6

8th|
6

9th|
6

10th|
7

11th|
7

12th|
7

13th|
8

14th|
8

15th|
8

16th|
9

17th|
9

18th|
9

19th|
10

20th|
10[/table]

It's not absolutely necessary for it to work, but I think that Wis to attack makes more sense for a battledancer, and classes should never have a feat tax. It already has adaptive style as feat tax. You should also say that it stacks with Str bonuses, but not Intuitive attack to avoid doubling up.

[Frosty]

The general theme for the ToB classes still call for physical stats first, with a semi-important mental stat attached. If we make the Battledancer *too* Wis-dependent for fighting, I'm not sure that's good.

[Tinydwarfman]

The general theme for the ToB classes still call for physical stats first, with a semi-important mental stat attached. If we make the Battledancer *too* Wis-dependent for fighting, I'm not sure that's good.

Which is why you should make the WIS bonus stack with the STR bonus. Still wants good STR, but really likes WIS. I still think it should get WIS to attack instead of damage though, I like the idea of a battledancer doing a ton of small accurate cuts instead of powerful ones.

[Frosty]

The thing is, as far as balance goes, getting more to-hit is usually a lot more powerful than the equivalent to-damage for Tome of Battle characters, given that most Maneuvers are one hit and not multiple hits. If you hit more often, you'll do a lot more damage on average than getting a few points of damage more but hitting less often. Letting Battledancers stack Str (or Dex if taking Weapon Finesse) and Wis to hit would mean she's better at hitting things than the Edgemater and Warlord. I'm not 100% convinced that should be the case.

I've decided to remove the Major Auras and Iron Heart from the Warlord. Thinking of maybe adding a few abilities from Exotic Weapons Master to the Edgemaster.

[Tinydwarfman]

The thing is, as far as balance goes, getting more to-hit is usually a lot more powerful than the equivalent to-damage for Tome of Battle characters, given that most Maneuvers are one hit and not multiple hits. If you hit more often, you'll do a lot more damage on average than getting a few points of damage more but hitting less often. Letting Battledancers stack Str (or Dex if taking Weapon Finesse) and Wis to hit would mean she's better at hitting things than the Edgemater and Warlord. I'm not 100% convinced that should be the case.

I've decided to remove the Major Auras and Iron Heart from the Warlord. Thinking of maybe adding a few abilities from Exotic Weapons Master to the Edgemaster.

Hmm, true. How about 1/2 wis then?

The exotic weapon master idea is cool, but it might be a bit wonky, considering it's only a 3 level PrC. Still has some cool abilities though.

[Frosty]

I'll probably pick like one or two of the abilities from EWM and plug it into Edgemaster.