OOTS #713 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Zanaril]

That's not good. :smalleek:

[Woodsman]

Oh my. :smalleek:

[Saph]

Ooh, ranseur. Nasty.

Nice to see the Order in combat again!

[Closak]

Wow, new comic while i'm online...that's a first.

Poor Haley...:smalleek:
There goes your bow!

...Would someone kindly gag the elf?
It's smug attitude is activating my murderous rage mode :smallannoyed:

[Sky-Moon]

I do not understand the last panel... :O

[hamishspence]

V didn't specify not to attack- just to "sit on hands"- so the creature attacked while still obeying Suggestion.

[DwarvenExodus]

He's sitting on his hands, but still hostile. Therefore, the breath attack.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Ouch! Poor Ellan... Roy needs to show up and lay the smackdown on Big Blue and Little Green!

[paddyfool]

Well, that definitely supports the big blue assailant being either a half dragon or a dragon disciple. (EDIT: And I'd guess the first, given how so far there's been no hint of spellcasting and he's wearing armour). Hopefully, though, that bolt wouldn't do enough damage to take Elan down to negatives... even if (as it appears) he failed his reflex save.

Their motives etc. are still unspecified, but I strongly suspect a link to the familicide incident. Possibly some friendship or other link with at least one of the murdered relations, possibly being hired by someone with such a link... the scale of what V did leaves lots of options.

[Fitzclowningham]

I wonder why V didn't use the same suggestion s/he used on the dragon...oh, right, plot.

[Saph]

V had better hope that breath weapon doesn't recharge, otherwise the blue thing's just going to sit there breathing on him at regular intervals until he cooks. :P

By the way, the blade of Elan's rapier seems to be missing in panels 1 and 2.

[Mastikator]

V didn't specify not to attack- just to "sit on hands"- so the creature attacked while still obeying Suggestion.

Indeed, he should have done what he did with the other dragon. "Take no action that I haven't explicitly specified". Bam, dominate monsters as a 4th level spell.

[Deca]

I would have expected V to be a bit more better at wording the Suggestion Spell.

Oh well, we all make mistakes some time.

[Archaicwonder]

action sequence! So happy. I might have to throw a blue half dragon into my next DD& game after seeing that one.

[TheFallenOne]

hm, is Elans fasttalking in panel 1 to reflect a rushed Diplomacy attempt?

[Ossian]

Why is Elan shot out of the pane by the Lightning bolt? I take it that it is because it looks cool but does it also come from a specific rule of the game?

[SPoD]

I wonder why V didn't use the same suggestion s/he used on the dragon...oh, right, plot.

It shouldn't have worked the first time, so maybe V didn't want to push his/her luck by trying it again.

[Gandariel]

now Haley is gonna use for the first time her new dagger... neat! :D

[jolus]

Interesting... very nice.

[Snake-Aes]

I would have expected V to be a bit more better at wording the Suggestion Spell.

Oh well, we all make mistakes some time.

Actively ignoring hostiles would break the suggestion. Sitting on Hands doesn't.

Fun one, really... and detracts further from the whole ABD thing, for once.

The hastened Diplomacy check was awesome.

[Zerg Cookie]

Nice one :smalltongue:

[JeminiZero]

Why is Elan shot out of the pane by the Lightning bolt? I take it that it is because it looks cool but does it also come from a specific rule of the game?

Possibly Tempest Breath. Draconomicon pg 74.

[Watcher]

Oh cool. I wonder if Haley actually will use the dagger. Is it anything except a +4 dagger? I don't remember them actually saying.

[Shale]

Not too clever, V.

Nitpick: Elan's rapier is black in the first panel, silver in the others.

[hamishspence]

Why is Elan shot out of the pane by the Lightning bolt? I take it that it is because it looks cool but does it also come from a specific rule of the game?

The same happened to Haley when Tsusiko hit her with a lightning spell.

[Deca]

Actively ignoring hostiles would break the suggestion. Sitting on Hands doesn't.



Yes but he could have said 'sit on your hands and keep your mouth shut'.
Of course, we all forget things when we're nervous about impending death. If I was paralysed and being attacked by a half-dragon with Sauron's mace, I doubt I would remember it had a breath weapon either.
Actually, my most likely choice of action would have been cast no spell and cry myself to sleep.

[maxon]

Fetch?? :smallfurious: Go get him Haley.

[Killer Angel]

V didn't specify not to attack- just to "sit on hands"- so the creature attacked while still obeying Suggestion.

The trademark of a smart DM... :smallwink:

[smellie_hippie]

Nice comic. looks like trouble...

[Irbis]

Well, I have nothing against Elan, but I really hope the other two will get their karmic comeuppance and we get to see them both being judged in Nine Hells, just like Roy was in Arcadia :smallsmile:

[Memplejemple]

Great comic. Very satisfying to see Elan get his handed to him. Also, combat is fun for all!

Edit: I think its probably much easier for Rich to draw an L-bolt pushing a character away then to draw them within the L-bolt.

[Deca]

Well, I have nothing against Elan, but I really hope the other two will get their karmic comeuppance and we get to see them both being judged in Nine Hells, just like Roy was in Arcadia :smallsmile:

Wait, what? I can understand V going to the Nine Hells for the some of the stuff he did but why Haley? She's Chaotic Good-ish.

[Teddy]

Woot, I was online while the strip came up!

Nice that V has learned from previous failures. Suggestion did indeed come in handy. Now it looks like V won't find any use for a feather fall, though...

Looks like it's dagger time for Haley too.

[hamishspence]

Wait, what? I can understand V going to the Nine Hells for the some of the stuff he did but why Haley? She's Chaotic Good-ish.

And bonus strips in Don't Split the Party do give her a sort-of pass on the whole Killing Crystal thing.

[Airenus]

first time i read it i thought the ifcc took over...

[Ron Miel]

Elan'r rapier blade is missing in panel 2. We can only see the handle.

[davre]

Wait, what? I can understand V going to the Nine Hells for the some of the stuff he did but why Haley? She's Chaotic Good-ish.
Watch it, that's "morally justified" territory. :wink:

[Irbis]

Wait, what? I can understand V going to the Nine Hells for the some of the stuff he did but why Haley? She's Chaotic Good-ish.

If you haven't noticed, she tried to lie then, and it failed so badly she had to rush the '-ish' part and even then it wasn't convincing. Still, trying to establish someone's alignment on bland lie is laughable, if anything, it should be exact opposite of what was said.

Face it people, she is petty thug, liar, murderer and thief, stealing even from her own party. There is nothing good about her. She haven't did even one thing in the entire comic run that was unquestionably good.

[Snake-Aes]

Elan'r rapier blade is missing in panel 2. We can only see the handle.

Actually, if you look at it's color in panel 1, you see that it is the same as the ground. It's not missing as much as it's camouflaged. Later it assumes the proper silver tone.

[Deca]

Face it people, she is petty thug, liar, murderer and thief,

Common traits for adventurers of all alignments.

[Darkspear]

If you haven't noticed, she tried to lie then, and it failed so badly she had to rush the '-ish' part and even then it wasn't convincing. Still, trying to establish someone's alignment on bland lie is laughable, if anything, it should be exact opposite of what was said.

Face it people, she is petty thug, liar, murderer and thief, stealing even from her own party. There is nothing good about her. She haven't did even one thing in the entire comic run that was unquestionably good.

Two words:
Dirt Farmers. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html)

[SPoD]

There is nothing good about her. She haven't did even one thing in the entire comic run that was unquestionably good.

She agreed to help the dirt farmers with no hope of compensation.

She risked her life to go get Roy's body from the battlefield to resurrect him when she had every reason to board the boat with her boyfriend.

She forms a resistance movement to oppose the evil conquerors of a city she barely knows when she could slip out and save her own skin at any time...and she spends her own money arming them.

And, in that same resistance group, she was the commanding officer of a paladin. Who honored her orders, more or less.

You have no argument.

[Gwynfrid]

Very, very good strip, with fun and creative combat. Nice to see that the Order, while they have gained levels and gotten much better at fighting, still are not invincible and can be seriously threatened by non-Epic, but clever foes. And I love seeing the smart side of V, even when not quite smart enough. Thanks, Giant !

[Shale]

Actually, if you look at it's color in panel 1, you see that it is the same as the ground. It's not missing as much as it's camouflaged. Later it assumes the proper silver tone.

It's black in the first panel, and in the second the only color near it is brown.

Also, is Elan supposed to be pointing it away from the dragon, or is that a glitch of some kind?

[Kish]

It's black in the first panel,
No, Elan's arm holding it is black. Look closer. The (white) blade of the rapier is pointing right at the dragonkin in the first panel.

[Dvil]

No, that's his arm you're seeing. The rapier is virtually invisible, but pointing toward the dragon.

[Dilvish]

It's black in the first panel, and in the second the only color near it is brown.

Also, is Elan supposed to be pointing it away from the dragon, or is that a glitch of some kind?

I can see pointing the rapier away from the dragon as part of the rushed diplomacy. "See, I'm not threatening you."

I had trouble seeing the rapier blade too, which had me wondering if Elan's rapier had been broken.

[Ron Miel]

Actually, if you look at it's color in panel 1, you see that it is the same as the ground. It's not missing as much as it's camouflaged. Later it assumes the proper silver tone.

I don't think so. In panel 1 it's visible against one colour in the background, invisible against another colour. In panel 2 it's invisible against a totally different colour on the background.

[Teddy]

If you haven't noticed, she tried to lie then, and it failed so badly she had to rush the '-ish' part and even then it wasn't convincing. Still, trying to establish someone's alignment on bland lie is laughable, if anything, it should be exact opposite of what was said.

Face it people, she is petty thug, liar, murderer and thief, stealing even from her own party. There is nothing good about her. She haven't did even one thing in the entire comic run that was unquestionably good.

She's never detected as evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) She helps the dirt farmers without asking for anything in return. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html) She's against executing captured villians (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html) and she's horrified when V suggests soul binding them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) She acts as the leader of the Resistance without asking for compensation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html) and she's against having the freed slaves pull the wagon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html) She's even slightly repentant about the methods she used to kill Crystal. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

No, she's definitely not evil.

Edit: Partially Ninja'd.

[Snake-Aes]

She agreed to help the dirt farmers with no hope of compensation.

She risked her life to go get Roy's body from the battlefield to resurrect him when she had every reason to board the boat with her boyfriend.

She forms a resistance movement to oppose the evil conquerors of a city she barely knows when she could slip out and save her own skin at any time...and she spends her own money arming them.

And, in that same resistance group, she was the commanding officer of a paladin. Who honored her orders, more or less.

You have no argument.

Money, I have to add, that she was saving to buy her father's rescue. Her greed does not detract her current purpose for money.

[silversaraph]

Yeah, the rapier thing is funny. I was wondering what it was, looked a bit like a pringle.

[Twitchel]

Nice comic. You can see the little green in 712 panel 4, behind the blue dragon's wing. So, he didn't just come out of nowhere.

[SavageWombat]

In my D&D experience, I'd rather the half-dragon blast me for 6d8 breath weapon damage than bash me with his huge STR and probably weapon specialization. Much less painful.

[Telonius]

You know you have a young child when...

You read today's comic and think, "All she needed to do was say, 'no swiping' three times!"http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n_8O3DdFZfE/R1GLvXrMryI/AAAAAAAAABU/sYUb6-lmgj4/s1600-R/swiper_clr_01.gif

[Prime32]

I don't think it's a half-dragon. I think it's one of those Tiamat-created monsters from the later Monster Manuals which hatch from dragon eggs. Like the redspawn berserker or blackspawn godslayer.

[Gitman00]

Heh. Was anyone else thinking... "Great big morning... breath?"

[DoctorIllithid]

You can't see Elan's sword all that well in the first two panels...

[Inhuman Bot]

Wonder where this'll go. Cool, though.

[Weimann]

Is it bad that the last panel was hilarious to me?

[Tundar]

Now that's some serious hiccups!

Good thing V was lying on the floor.

[Kerrah]

Face it people, she is petty thug, liar, murderer and thief, stealing even from her own party. There is nothing good about her. She haven't did even one thing in the entire comic run that was unquestionably good.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! That was a good one.

[hamishspence]

We've seen some speculation that they are agents of Tiamat, or Girard.

But what about this?

When V killed that half-black dragon with Familicide- he had friends- other half-dragons who (while not necessarily affliated with Tiamat) took umbrage at the murder of their friend, and sought out the murderer.

A Familicide-related hypothesis, that doesn't involve Tiamat.

[SaintRidley]

Is it bad that the last panel was hilarious to me?

No, I thought it was too.

[Snake-Aes]

We've seen some speculation that they are agents of Tiamat, or Girard.

But what about this?

When V killed that half-black dragon with Familicide- he had friends- other half-dragons who (while not necessarily affliated with Tiamat) took umbrage at the murder of their friend, and sought out the murderer.

A Familicide-related hypothesis, that doesn't involve Tiamat.

It kinda has to because tracking V will be extremely hard when there's absolutely no description of V anywhere and he teleporked a lot. Finding her is incredibly easier when divine help is used, and "tiamat's people" all seem to know about the oracle.

[valce]

Elan's rapier seems to be missing its blade in the first two panels...

[hamishspence]

That's been mentioned- the blade is visible in the first, just very faint.

I couldn't spot the blade in the second panel though- just the hilt.

[RMS Oceanic]

We've seen some speculation that they are agents of Tiamat, or Girard.

But what about this?

When V killed that half-black dragon with Familicide- he had friends- other half-dragons who (while not necessarily affliated with Tiamat) took umbrage at the murder of their friend, and sought out the murderer.

A Familicide-related hypothesis, that doesn't involve Tiamat.

I always liked the third hypothesis.

They think Elan is Nale and are seeking revenge for something Nale did.

Possibly to do with ex-Lord Tyrinar?

[talkamancer]

1 step closer to finding Girrard. Seems scaley likes to talk.

[Drolyt]

Yay new comic! Go Giant!

[pinwiz]

Is it just me or does it seem like they might be attempting to capture them? Stregth poison is the first clue to me. The green lizard dude disarming haley makes me think that too. The seemingly native nature of the creatures also suggests to me that they're working with Girard. I mean, who better to guard a gate in the middle of the desert than creatures naturally from that desert?

Great comic too. :smallbiggrin:

[waterpenguin43]

Ouch!:smalleek:
Could this be a mammal hating gang? :smallconfused:

[zql]

That bandana lizard kind of remind me of "Teenage mutant ninja turtles" :smalltongue:
I think they are Girard's minions, the strongest NPC's in the desert should be with him.

Any guess about which country are they?

[HUMVEE Driver]

They're just random street thugs/thieves/criminals that saw out beloved adventures as prey.

The fact that they are more than holding their own against three high-level PCs shows that they probably are used to taking out powerful characters. They use excellent tactics and are doubtless very competant, but I still think they are just a random encounter.

And WTF is up with Elan's rapier? First the blade's almost invisible, then it is invisible, then it's back to silver. What gives? It can't be that hard to get the color right for one whole strip. What is going on there?

HUMVEE Driver

[Starbuck_II]

V had better hope that breath weapon doesn't recharge, otherwise the blue thing's just going to sit there breathing on him at regular intervals until he cooks. :P

By the way, the blade of Elan's rapier seems to be missing in panels 1 and 2.

Psst, unless Races of Dragon feats are used 1/2 dragons get 1/day breath weapon.
He could be a Dragonborn (breath weapon) with the Races feat that give Flight.

[NerfTW]

I wonder why V didn't use the same suggestion s/he used on the dragon...oh, right, plot.

I'm sure you always make exactly the right decision at all times, especially when under duress. It's called an error in judgment. A character who does exactly the right move all the time is not an interesting character.

[spectralphoenix]

I don't think they're specifically targeting V because of when they chose to attack - if they were gunning for him/her, it would be better to attack him when he/she was apart from the group, and they would have found out enough beforehand to know what they where up against. Girard's group, or anyone else who is interested in the gate, wouldn't know as much about the OotS - they've only had a few hours since the Order showed up and started asking around. So they probably followed V or Haley and Elan to find who they were meeting up with and sprung the ambush.

Lastly, if Tiamat was really going after V here, I suspect she'd be using more firepower. If V has Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html) prepped, this fight is over.

[Saph]

Psst, unless Races of Dragon feats are used 1/2 dragons get 1/day breath weapon.
He could be a Dragonborn (breath weapon) with the Races feat that give Flight.

That's the point. If he's a Half-Dragon he gets 1 breath weapon per day. But there are lots of vaguely dragon-y creatures and classes out there, and not all of them have the same restriction.

[Torick]

The trademark of a smart DM... :smallwink:

Spot on :smallsmile:

Abusing suggestion to mean dominate monster (or any other abuse of a low-level spell to act far beyond its power) is just tempting fate with most DMs. I like the idea of this being a deliberate loophole left by the player to avoid antagonizing the DM :smallamused:

[Mordokai]

Is it bad that the last panel was hilarious to me?

I laughed. So you're no worse than I am... which doesn't really say much, but there you have it :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[WreckedElf]

I'd just like to say, I really enjoyed today's comic. Plot and character great and give the story that wonderful depth, but good ol' D&D battle antics are just so much fun! (and this is most likely a important plot related battle so all the better).

[Protecar]

YAY for V getting to cast some magical boss-ness!

Now if only Belkar would show up and activate his Sexy Shoeless God of War Mode(TM) this will be a satisfying encounter. :smallbiggrin:

[Forealms]

And WTF is up with Elan's rapier? First the blade's almost invisible, then it is invisible, then it's back to silver.

Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't look like the rapier is silver in the first and second panel, it looks... pink-ish. Maybe the Giant accidentally gave the same color as the road, or something like that?

[DabblerWizard]

*Gets out the popcorn*

I expect V to be victorious!

[ThePhantasm]

That's not a morning star though is it... its a mace, right?

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't look like the rapier is silver in the first and second panel, it looks... pink-ish. Maybe the Giant accidentally gave the same color as the road, or something like that?
Taking that panel, putting it into an image-editing program, and recoloring the street shows that yes, in the second panel the blade is the same color as the street. Dunno about the first panel though.

[hamishspence]

That's not a morning star though is it... its a mace, right?

In D&D rules, morningstars are maces with long pointy spikes on the head.

An ordinary mace would have flanges instead of spikes, or be just a ball on the end of a solid rod, with no protrusions at all.


The ball with spikes on the end of a chain attached to a long handle, by contrast, is called a flail.

Artistically, the weapon seen in this strip fits with the D&D morningstar.

[derfenrirwolv]

A morning star is a type of mace. It just tends to be bigger and spikier.

[DSCrankshaw]

Well, that definitely supports the big blue assailant being either a half dragon or a dragon disciple. (EDIT: And I'd guess the first, given how so far there's been no hint of spellcasting and he's wearing armour). Hopefully, though, that bolt wouldn't do enough damage to take Elan down to negatives... even if (as it appears) he failed his reflex save.

Their motives etc. are still unspecified, but I strongly suspect a link to the familicide incident. Possibly some friendship or other link with at least one of the murdered relations, possibly being hired by someone with such a link... the scale of what V did leaves lots of options.

I'd have thought, though, that if he was after V, he would have attacked V, even while under the Suggestion... nothing in V's suggestion would prevent that, and there's nothing in the spell description that would make a hostile creature non-hostile. Instead, the half-dragon seems to be going after Elan. It could be specific, or it could just be that he doesn't view V as a threat. But if V were the target, I doubt he'd ignore V to get Elan.

[hamishspence]

A morning star is a type of mace. It just tends to be bigger and spikier.

Though sometimes, military flails of the spiked ball on chain type, are referred to as morningstars or chain-morningstars.

Maybe maces tend to have metal (or metal-reinforced) handles, and morningstars wooden handles & spiked heads?

[paddyfool]

I'd have thought, though, that if he was after V, he would have attacked V, even while under the Suggestion... nothing in V's suggestion would prevent that, and there's nothing in the spell description that would make a hostile creature non-hostile. Instead, the half-dragon seems to be going after Elan. It could be specific, or it could just be that he doesn't view V as a threat. But if V were the target, I doubt he'd ignore V to get Elan.

Good point.

Also, to unite two hypotheses:


What if Girard Draketooth was a relative of the black dragon, and died due to the Familicide spell? These could then be former associates of his with two links to the party.

[iwarriorpoet]

Crappy day at work. A new OOTS brings a spot of joy to a bleary day.

[silvadel]

I had a character like that back in old AD&D. CONSTANTLY failing saving throws critically and having his items get destroyed. If Haley doesnt watch out, losing her bow could end up a really bad habit.

[recluso]

While I admit the capture idea is convincing (poison, disarm), I sort of await V finally using Hold Portal, which in 178 gets more than minimal attention.

[ericotto]

Sorry, drawing a blank. Refresh my memory?

[Draz74]

Bozzok. Half-orc head of the Greysky City Thieves' Guild.

[Danne]

Bozzok. Head of the Thieves Guild back in Greysky City.

Edit: Ninja'd.

[WreckedElf]

I'd have thought, though, that if he was after V, he would have attacked V, even while under the Suggestion... nothing in V's suggestion would prevent that, and there's nothing in the spell description that would make a hostile creature non-hostile. Instead, the half-dragon seems to be going after Elan. It could be specific, or it could just be that he doesn't view V as a threat. But if V were the target, I doubt he'd ignore V to get Elan.


It wouldn't make much sense to attack they guy who is already (mostly) disabled, when there is another enemy standing in front of you with a weapon ready. Also they might targeted V in the first round for merely strategic purposes. Their reason for attacking the group probably goes beyond just V. (Unless this is about the familicide, but personally I doubt that's the motive here.)

[Vemynal]

this should probably go in the comic thread

[Vemynal]

I really like the theory that these people are working for Lord Tyrinar or something of the sort, trying to capture Elan because they think he's Nale

[whitemane]

I have a new theory regarding the assailants...

I think that they were sent by Girard... Why else would they be using some (relatively speaking) non-lethal tactics that they are using.

e.g. Using Strength poison on V instead of Con poison, Disarming Haley instead of skewering her...

Granted, the argument can be made that the half-dragon is using lethal force, but what choice does he have when he is sitting on his hands...

Girard probably sent them to capture (if at all possible) the adventurers that he was scrying on to find out more information.

[Swordpriest]

Ah, a good strip is so refreshing after a miserable, worthless day. No wonder this comic is so popular. :smallwink:

These characters do seem to be going out of their way to capture the PCs, though. Wouldn't it be interesting if the other characters (Roy, Durkon, Belkar) have already been bagged? :smallbiggrin:

[Roland Itiative]

Explanation for the invisible rapier: Elan doesn't use a rapier anymore... He uses a silver-bladed lightsaber! During the first panel he was turning it off as a display of good faith, that's why we see it fading in the first panel and can't see it in the second. In the last couple of panels he has it activated again 'cause he's going to attack the lizardman.:smallbiggrin:

[glowface]

The guys looks somewhat Spawn of Timat-like to me too. None of them seem to fit the stats of a 3rd edition Spawn, but they look like it.
Green guy especially looks like a Greenspawn Sneak, with a different weapon: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm4_gallery/98721.jpg
And he is sneaky and roguelike, too.

But could be anything.

Oh, yeah: and the Bozzok references (besides being references to the actual guild master, that is) seem to rhyme for me with Bozzaks, Dragonlance's bronze draconians. Funny thing that our green friend has no idea what a "bahzock" could be... :smallsmile:

[DSCrankshaw]

It wouldn't make much sense to attack they guy who is already (mostly) disabled, when there is another enemy standing in front of you with a weapon ready. Also they might targeted V in the first round for merely strategic purposes. Their reason for attacking the group probably goes beyond just V. (Unless this is about the familicide, but personally I doubt that's the motive here.)

Well, except that the mostly disabled guy just demonstrated that he can still cast effective spells, which would suggest that he shouldn't be ignored. And Elan didn't show up until the half-dragon had already been sitting there patiently for a while (3 panels while the other guy attacked Haley).

[SoC175]

Face it people, she is petty thug, liar, murderer and thief, stealing even from her own party. There is nothing good about her. She haven't did even one thing in the entire comic run that was unquestionably good.
Yet still too chaotic for hell

[wrybread]

I'd have thought, though, that if he was after V, he would have attacked V, even while under the Suggestion... nothing in V's suggestion would prevent that, and there's nothing in the spell description that would make a hostile creature non-hostile. Instead, the half-dragon seems to be going after Elan. It could be specific, or it could just be that he doesn't view V as a threat. But if V were the target, I doubt he'd ignore V to get Elan.

Well, Elan's clearly allied with V and he's probably the one of the two who presents more of a physical threat to the half-dragon while he's held by the Suggestion spell. The dragon no longer has the use of his melee weapon to threaten V, so he's just using what he has-his breath attack-to take out anyone who's threatening him. This way, if/when the suggestion wears off he'll just have the weakened wizard to deal with, instead of the weakened wizard and the guy with a sword. That said, I'm kind of doubting this has to do with V's Familicide at this point, unless as I suggested previously the half-dragon's V's new LG counterpart. Given that Haley specifically comments that these guys aren't any of the usual recurring villains, I'm guessing these guys are something brand new. Also, the whole "group of dragons after V" theory seems a bit less likely now that we've gotten a good look at the green guy, who looks a bit more lizardfolkish than draconic.

[zimmerwald1915]

What if Girard Draketooth was a relative of the black dragon, and died due to the Familicide spell? These could then be former associates of his with two links to the party.

I knew I wasn't insane for thinking this.

[Skaven]

You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable.

I never really got how V's suggestions work like dominate monster.

ALso.. man I LOVE how Rich drew that lizardfolk rogue/fighter. He looks awesome and has an awesome attitude.

[Larocs Macalar]

There it is the second guy... what they want after all? simple dont get it. and that ray might leave a mark...:smallfrown:

[Swordpriest]

\\...Would someone kindly gag the elf?
It's smug attitude is activating my murderous rage mode :smallannoyed:

Huh? :smallconfused: I didn't see the elf as having a smug attitude, and certainly not enough to cause a 'murderous rage.' I saw it as being glad that it had a spell ready with a verbal component only. Or are you one of those people who hates V so much that anything V says or does is wrong, no matter what it is?

[Juhn]

Well, I saw that last panel coming, and it was all the funnier for it. Of course, I've played a half-blue-dragon myself before. I do so like that breath weapon.

[Piscot]

What if Girard Draketooth was a relative of the black dragon, and died due to the Familicide spell?

Then he wouldn't be able to check the desert in last panels of 698.
(if I'm getting it right:smallsmile:)

[pinwiz]

Huh? :smallconfused: I didn't see the elf as having a smug attitude, and certainly not enough to cause a 'murderous rage.' I saw it as being glad that it had a spell ready with a verbal component only. Or are you one of those people who hates V so much that anything V says or does is wrong, no matter what it is?

If you look at his profile you'll see he REALLY likes dragons. And V killed a lot of dragons. so yeah, i'd guess that he doesn't like V very much. :smallwink:

[rewinn]

It's unfortunate Haley, a highly experienced adventurer, didn't suspect there might be more than one attacker. While it's possible for that the Big Flying Attacker to have shot V, then grabbed a spiky weapon and rushed, it's more than reasonable to assume that he might also have a sniper buddy.

But in the rush of combat, everyone makes mistakes I suppose. As others have said, perfect people make terrible stories.

[Swordpriest]

If you look at his profile you'll see he REALLY likes dragons. And V killed a lot of dragons. so yeah, i'd guess that he doesn't like V very much. :smallwink:

And I thought you were him for a second, because of the avatar! :smallbiggrin: I was like "huh? Is he talking about himself in the third person?" :smallwink:

[Xesirin]

How come Elan gets a sword that turns invisible in the first 2 panels of 713, and I don't??? This is totally unfair! :smallfrown:

[pinwiz]

Oh yeah all the time :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Yet still too chaotic for hell

Unless the rules from FC2 are being used, where devils tempt demon-worshippers into doing lawful acts, so once they've done enough, the devils get their souls after death even if they are still chaotic (unless they atone).

It also has similar rules for lawful nonevil beings. Do enough evil and fail to atone for it- you go to Nine Hells. Unless you are really repentant, in which case you don't go straight to your expected afterlife- but are reborn as a Hellbred- and you have to spend this new life doing acts of great goodness, to escape being condemned.

The rules don't mention combining the two though.

Ruling that a non-evil, non-lawful guy who has done enough lawful and evil deeds, gets sent to Nine Hells if they don't atone, would be a logical extrapolation, but it would be up to the DM to decide if this would be how it would work.

[derfenrirwolv]

I have a new theory regarding the assailants...

I think that they were sent by Girard... Why else would they be using some (relatively speaking) non-lethal tactics that they are using.

e.g. Using Strength poison on V instead of Con poison, Disarming Haley instead of skewering her...

Granted, the argument can be made that the half-dragon is using lethal force, but what choice does he have when he is sitting on his hands...

Girard probably sent them to capture (if at all possible) the adventurers that he was scrying on to find out more information.





They used strength draining poison because 1) its cheaper 2) It has a higher Fort DC 3) its dragonbile, and a) they obviously have ready access to to it b) its thematic

As to why disarm haley the answer is simple.. you don't ant to be shot in the face and disarming or sundering is the easiest way to neuter an archer in a hurry. Mind you, that disarm was a lot better than what the rules allow, but its very thematic.

[Harr]

Heh, my knee-jerk reaction was "he just dropped it, duh"... but looking closer... that's.. huh.. yeah :smallsmile: nice one

Edit: I guess you could say that Haley kicked it over to him. Still odd though.

[Kish]

How come Elan gets a sword that turns invisible in the first 2 panels of 713, and I don't??? This is totally unfair! :smallfrown:
You're not a Dashing Swordsman.

[Teleporker]

Whoa! Failed checks all over the place! How many can you count?

1. Elan fails diplomacy on panel 1
2. Haley fails at least one attack on panel 1
3. Elan fails a disarm check on panel 2
4. The half-blue fails a will save on panel 4 (and if you ask me, a dignity check on panel 5).
5. Haley fails a disarm check in panel 8 (And maybe some other check I don't remember on panel 7).
6. Elan fails reflex, dignity and Wisdom in the last panel.

All we're missing is Belkar failing to listen and spot, and Presto! One more strip confirming that after so many levels, the party's checks are still not worth a damn!

[Piscot]

Whoa! Failed checks all over the place! How many can you count?

1. Elan fails diplomacy on panel 1
2. Haley fails at least one attack on panel 1
3. Elan fails a disarm check on panel 2
4. The half-blue fails a will save on panel 4 (and if you ask me, a dignity check on panel 5).
5. Haley fails a disarm check in panel 8 (And maybe some other check I don't remember on panel 7).
6. Elan fails reflex, dignity and Wisdom in the last panel.

All we're missing is Belkar failing to listen and spot, and Presto! One more strip confirming that after so many levels, the party's checks are still not worth a damn!

Rich fails rapier coloring:smallcool:

[Selene]

Well, I have nothing against Elan, but I really hope the other two will get their karmic comeuppance and we get to see them both being judged in Nine Hells, just like Roy was in Arcadia :smallsmile:

Roy was in Celestia.

[ericgrau]

Level 2 of Dashing Swordsman grants "lightsaber syndrome: You make retrieve your sword merely by reaching out to it. Until then, the blade disappears." That's how he retrieves it so quickly. Btw the sword is in panel 1, it's only missing from panel 2.

[Swordpriest]

Actually, it's there, it's just a weird color. :smallwink:

[ericgrau]

So I opened up ms-paint and half the sword is in fact missing from panel 1, and all of it is missing from panel 2. It seems whatever the Giant uses to blend colors for the thin blade effect screwed up. It's not merely hard to see, I used the paint bucket tool to change the color of the entire area wherever it was the same color.

[Darakonis]

In the last two panels, we're zoomed in closer. In panels 1 & 2, we're zoomed out a little more.

OoC explanation: The compression blended the sword blade to the point of near invisibility. If the blade is initially 2 pixels wide, then shrunk down to 1 pixel due to distance, the compression will bleed adjacent colors into the blade's color.

IC explanation: The blade is so thin that from far away, it's nearly invisible.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Tyrmatt]

So I opened up ms-paint and half the sword is in fact missing from panel 1, and all of it is missing from panel 2. It seems whatever the Giant uses to blend colors for the thin blade effect screwed up. It's not merely hard to see, I used the paint bucket tool to change the color of the entire area wherever it was the same color.

That wouldn't help in the slightest anyway. MS Paint is about as useful for discerning the layers in a Photoshop file as a wet paper hanky is for absailing. Plus its been converted to a more suitable, web friendly format as well, eliminating the layers of the image. It would all change colour regardless of whether the blade was there or not.

[Charmy]

Whoa! Failed checks all over the place! How many can you count?

1. Elan fails diplomacy on panel 1
2. Haley fails at least one attack on panel 1
3. Elan fails a disarm check on panel 2
4. The half-blue fails a will save on panel 4 (and if you ask me, a dignity check on panel 5).
5. Haley fails a disarm check in panel 8 (And maybe some other check I don't remember on panel 7).
6. Elan fails reflex, dignity and Wisdom in the last panel.

All we're missing is Belkar failing to listen and spot, and Presto! One more strip confirming that after so many levels, the party's checks are still not worth a damn!

Don't forget V's failed fort save!

But hey, you've never had the dice hate you during a gaming session? :p

I agree its a pretty terrible run of luck for them here, but I think they can still make a comeback. I'd be very surprised if Elan was taken out by a single melee attack + breath weapon. I just hope he's going to do more than charge mindlessly back into the fray.

This seems like a good time for some decent bardic magic like Hold Monster, Slow or Shadow Conjuration.. although this is Elan we're talking about :smallfrown:

[IndyPendant]

I'm just wondering if that was a deliberate Dragonlance reference in panels 6 and 7...

[Barlen]

Lets see...

In the last comic the arrow appears to be targeted on Elan

In the first panel of this strip the 1/2 dragon ignores Haley who hit it with at least one arrow and smacks Elan instead. It then follows Elan and still ignores Haley.

In the last panel the 1/2 dragon Hits Elan with its breath weapon even though V has cast a spell against it.

Elan hasn't even tried to attack, actively attempted diplomacy, isn't (noticeably) wearing armor and only wields a rapier. Thats a lot of aggression pointed at a character that doesn't look like he would be a serious combatant and hasn't really been trying to be one in this fight.

My first assumption was that his is Girard's forces trying to shut them up. This might explain Elan being first on the hit list if the lizard in the mask is the same as the one that was drinking in the tavern when Elan approached. But it might well be someone targeting Nale after all too. I like the idea its Girard's people better personally.

[Alysar]

Invisible sword reminds me of this (http://www.amazon.com/Starchaser-Legend-Orin-Dennis-Alwood/dp/B0007XBKPO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1270837825&sr=1-1).

Anyone else see it?

[Mr. Scaly]

I'm just wondering if that was a deliberate Dragonlance reference in panels 6 and 7...

Probably not. The correct pronunciation for Bozak is Boe-zack, not Bah-zzok.

[Zorn]

What if Girard Draketooth was a relative of the black dragon, and died due to the Familicide spell? These could then be former associates of his with two links to the party.


That would be quite the plot twist; I like it. Would Familicide have been able to dust Girard though? We know its an incredibly powerful spell even for an epic level caster. That's sort of the point, really. Still, we have no way of knowing what level the dragons who died in 639 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) were or even if other dragons off-panel were targeted but survived. Adding Girard, an epic level caster, to the list of casualties would remove any ambiguity as to how powerful Familicide really is. If Haera was capable of crafting a spell that powerful, why hasn't Xykon done something similar (aside from the possibility of him being unaware that he can)?


Then he wouldn't be able to check the desert in last panels of 698.
(if I'm getting it right:smallsmile:)

Do we know for a fact that it was Girard in 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)? It could have just as easily been one of his lackeys or someone else entirely. This isn't the first time while skulking around the forums I've seen someone certain that it was Girard though so I get the feeling I've missed something.



We've seen some speculation that they are agents of Tiamat, or Girard.

But what about this?

When V killed that half-black dragon with Familicide- he had friends- other half-dragons who (while not necessarily affliated with Tiamat) took umbrage at the murder of their friend, and sought out the murderer.

A Familicide-related hypothesis, that doesn't involve Tiamat.

I always liked the third hypothesis.

They think Elan is Nale and are seeking revenge for something Nale did.

Possibly to do with ex-Lord Tyrinar?

Or else (as someone pointed out on the last strip's discussion I believe) these two were sent by Nale himself. Don't ask me how or why though.

Personally, I just assume every mysterious occurrence is the doing of that aboleth people were raving about before we met Qarr (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0509.html). The fact that they're nowhere near a body of water only makes me more certain.


You know you have a young child when...

I initially read this with "know" meaning more along the lines of "realize that" than "are reminded" and laughed. I'm a terrible person...

[enigmatime]

*slaps hands to mouth* Second... Last... Panel...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html

[enigmatime]

Does no one remember that Elan opted on not taking another level of Dashing Swordsman?

[Ferrous]

Lets see...

In the last comic the arrow appears to be targeted on Elan

In the first panel of this strip the 1/2 dragon ignores Haley who hit it with at least one arrow and smacks Elan instead. It then follows Elan and still ignores Haley.

In the last panel the 1/2 dragon Hits Elan with its breath weapon even though V has cast a spell against it.

Elan hasn't even tried to attack, actively attempted diplomacy, isn't (noticeably) wearing armor and only wields a rapier. Thats a lot of aggression pointed at a character that doesn't look like he would be a serious combatant and hasn't really been trying to be one in this fight.

My first assumption was that his is Girard's forces trying to shut them up. This might explain Elan being first on the hit list if the lizard in the mask is the same as the one that was drinking in the tavern when Elan approached. But it might well be someone targeting Nale after all too. I like the idea its Girard's people better personally.

Or perhaps they're mistaking Elan for Nale. Granted, that's already been done, but it is a possibility.

[Faramir]

Is it just me or does it seem like they might be attempting to capture them? Stregth poison is the first clue to me. The green lizard dude disarming haley makes me think that too. The seemingly native nature of the creatures also suggests to me that they're working with Girard. I mean, who better to guard a gate in the middle of the desert than creatures naturally from that desert?

Great comic too. :smallbiggrin:

My first thought on seeing the disarming move.


Ooh, ranseur. Nasty.



Isn't that a type of cheese? ;)

[enigmatime]

*slaps hands to mouth* Second... Last... Panel...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html

I've got it! Since Haley was technically in the Thieves Guild and the Thieves Guild was having problems with the MOBs... And the Cloister may have worn off... Oh my gosh! That panel wasn't just for jokes! It may have had an actual significance to the story line! :smalleek:

[Shale]

Different blue dragon. Its snout is shaped differently, there's no webbing under its jaw, and the horns are a different color.

[Gift Jeraff]

I got it!
Girard, AKA Lord Tyrinar, father of Elan and Nale, and part dragon (thus explaining Nale's sorcery), has hired the MOBs to capture the elven wizard who cast Familicde (he's epic enough to find out who it was without Tiamat) and kill Nale. The lizardfolk and half-dragon had different targets, but met up after they both ended up tracking them down to the same town....not!

Different blue dragon. Its snout is shaped differently, there's no webbing under its jaw, and the horns are a different color.

How often do mob bosses do their own dirty work?

[Mojique]

Not Elans day. :smalleek:

[Herald Alberich]

Does no one remember that Elan opted on not taking another level of Dashing Swordsman?

He said he took a bard level, not the next level of DS, when he leveled up. That doesn't mean he can't take more levels in DS later (some classes have restrictions about that, but I can't see why DS would), and it certainly doesn't mean he doesn't get DS skills anymore.

[Aaron]

That guy has a really bad morning star breath. Ha ha! :smallbiggrin::smallsmile:

Oh, and Mr. Burlew, the sword part of Elan's rapier is almost invisible in the first 2 pannels.

[enigmatime]

Different blue dragon. Its snout is shaped differently, there's no webbing under its jaw, and the horns are a different color.

These were the boss's underlings, of course.

[enigmatime]

He said he took a bard level, not the next level of DS, when he leveled up. That doesn't mean he can't take more levels in DS later (some classes have restrictions about that, but I can't see why DS would), and it certainly doesn't mean he doesn't get DS skills anymore.

I'm just saying, Rich hasn't shown Elan getting anymore levels since last time. This is not to say he hasn't.

[Blaznak]

Ooooh Breath Weapony

[Shale]

How often do mob bosses do their own dirty work?

If it's not the same dragon, what's the connection? All blue dragons work for the same mob now?

[enigmatime]

That guy has a really bad morning star breath. Ha ha! :smallbiggrin::smallsmile:

Good one. :amused:

[ThePhantasm]

I just noticed that what we previously assumed was the Dragon's "tooth" is in actuality a horn. So there goes that "draketooth" connection...

[enigmatime]

If it's not the same dragon, what's the connection? All blue dragons work for the same mob now?

No but why else would they be going after them? I'm just making an inference/prediction.

[Aaron]

Good one. :amused:

:smallbiggrin:


I just noticed that what we previously assumed was the Dragon's "tooth" is in actuality a horn. So there goes that "draketooth" connection...

Oooooooooooooooooo! Plot speculating! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Shale]

No but why else would they be going after them? I'm just making an inference/prediction.

Associates of Girard, revenge for Familicide, holy orders from Tiamat, who's decided to ignore her deal with the IFCC, local criminals who heard about the remarkably unsubtle adventurers in town, enemies of Nale who've mistaken Elan for him...

[enigmatime]

revenge for Familicide

I don't completelly understand the whole Familicide theory. All of the Black Dragons that would have avenged the Mother are dead (unless Resurected). Besides, these are a Half-Blue Dragon and a Half-Green Dragon.

[Snake-Aes]

I don't completelly understand the whole Familicide theory. All of the Black Dragons that would have avenged the Mother are dead (unless Resurected). Besides, these are a Half-Blue Dragon and a Half-Green Dragon.And they could have no friends?
I kill you, then I kill your wife, your son, and your grandson.

What of the grandson's wife? And his friends?

[enigmatime]

And they could have no friends?
I kill you, then I kill your wife, your son, and your grandson.

What of the grandson's wife? And his friends?

I thought of that right after I posted. I didn't feel like editing it 'cause I'm lazy. :smalltongue:

[Kumo]

Why are you assuming the green one is a dragon? he's got no horns, he's very clearly lizardfolk. :smalltongue:

I swear, i thought Elan was going to say 'morning breath' for a second before the lightning frame =P

[enigmatime]

Why are you assuming the green one is a dragon? he's got no horns, he's very clearly lizardfolk. :smalltongue:

I swear, i thought Elan was going to say 'morning breath' for a second before the lightning frame =P

Thank you for correcting me.

[Maelstrom]

That wouldn't help in the slightest anyway. MS Paint is about as useful for discerning the layers in a Photoshop file as a wet paper hanky is for absailing. Plus its been converted to a more suitable, web friendly format as well, eliminating the layers of the image. It would all change colour regardless of whether the blade was there or not.

Since when is a gif a photoshop file? Could have swore that it was a compuserve file format "back in the old days' ;)

Yeah, yeah, I know it was converted to a gif from a raw format, but I think his point was to see if the colors were ever so slightly different, which, as it turns out, in the gif form, they are not...thus the invisible sword...

As for the actual sword...darn thing is a telepoofing object appearing here, there, everywhere. At one point, I thought the HD(or whatever) had sat on it...

[ZerglingOne]

It appears as if either the opacity was way way low when Rich pasted or imported the rapier, maybe he drew the line in multiply blend mode. I pointed the same thing out from panel 9 of the previous comic. If you look, the blade is almost invisible there too.

[Jack of Spades]

My favorite part of these titles is that it makes me wonder what's gonna come up in the last frame. Also, I like the plausible justification for :vaarsuvius: having Suggestion prepared.

[derfenrirwolv]

All of the Black Dragons that would have avenged the Mother are dead (unless Resurected)

Nope. The spell goes by blood liniage.. relations. It didn't say anything about getting husbands or wives. Assuming that black dragons have the same taboos against incest that most creatures do, there should be a LARGE number of very angry widows wandering around





Besides, these are a Half-Blue Dragon and a Half-Green Dragon

Tiamat is the mother to ALL Evil dragons. There is probably a standing order from all temples for a kill on sight order for V. These two are just the first ones he's come accross.

[Snake-Aes]

Tiamat is the mother to ALL Evil dragons. There is probably a standing order from all temples for a kill on sight order for V. These two are just the first ones he's come accross.

Actually, there isn't. Tiamat herself's reigning her clerics.

[honigmuffin]

I'd love to see Haley go ballistic on Lizardy McFork for throwing her bow away like that…

[Solara]

Haven't had a chance to read the whole thread yet, just wanted to say that I love the little green guy already! :smallbiggrin: He seems too intelligent for a disposable minion, so here's hoping he survives this...which shouldn't be a problem since Elan and Haley and V look like the ones to be worried about right now. Perhaps Elan should have tried his heyyouseemlikeareasonableguy line on him instead...

Still clinging to the theory that they were sent by Girard - D&D nerds, I notice the lizard (kobold? He's kind of tall for one though...) made a point of disarming Haley. Can the morningstar the big guy had be used in non-lethal attacks? With the strength-draining poison added to the mix I'm wondering if their intention all along is to capture and interrogate the team.

[CrimsonAngel]

What an engaging read.

[derfenrirwolv]

an the morningstar the big guy had be used in non-lethal attacks? With the strength-draining poison added to the mix I'm wondering if their intention all along is to capture and interrogate the team.


I'm thinking that morningstar doesn't have a method of making non lethal attacks. The blood comming out of elan after the first hit would seem to indicate that its not being used to attack non lethally.

[hamishspence]

Strictly following the rules- all weapons have the ability to do nonlethal damage (at a penalty), even very spiky ones.

However- would we know it when we saw it? It might be a bit difficult to represent it artistically.

[Teleporker]

Haven't had a chance to read the whole thread yet, just wanted to say that I love the little green guy already! :smallbiggrin: He seems too intelligent for a disposable minion, so here's hoping he survives this...which shouldn't be a problem since Elan and Haley and V look like the ones to be worried about right now. Perhaps Elan should have tried his heyyouseemlikeareasonableguy line on him instead...

Still clinging to the theory that they were sent by Girard - D&D nerds, I notice the lizard (kobold? He's kind of tall for one though...) made a point of disarming Haley. Can the morningstar the big guy had be used in non-lethal attacks? With the strength-draining poison added to the mix I'm wondering if their intention all along is to capture and interrogate the team.

Agreed. That "go fetch" line had me laughing hard for a while, so the green guy seems like a keeper. However, he's not safe until someone gives him a name (then again, that was no lifeboat for a certain chocolate-carrying gnome).

And yes, it makes sense that they want to do a capture. Both of them could have been far more lethal in their approach. I.E. why not open with a surprise lightning bolt on everyone instead of straight-up melee on the bard? Why not finish off the caster while they could? Why blow off the surprise by entitling Haley to a listen check?

Yep. I'm going along with capture and interrogate.

[enigmatime]

I'd love to see Haley go ballistic on Lizardy McFork for throwing her bow away like that…

Kinda like how Roy went crazy when Xykon destroyed his sword?

[gosh]

Panel 2 looks kind of awkward- in my first read-through I didn't notice Elan at all and thought Vaarsuvius had cast some sort of invisible shield spell. Also panel two: the handle for the rapier is there, but the
blade appears to be missing. Oh dear.

Very suspenseful- especially now that Haley's lost her bow! "Go fetch," haha!

[shadowxknight]

Dang Elan sure took a lot of punishment in this one.

[honigmuffin]

Kinda like how Roy went crazy when Xykon destroyed his sword?

Yeah, like that, maybe with a nice icy pun to top it off. (You know, like the ones Mr. Freeze had :smalltongue:)

But considering that they are not on the winning side at the moment, I'd also like to see the rest of the team join the fight. I'm not so sure Elan could take another few blasts :/

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Hmmmm, the comic binge is slowing down. :smallfrown:

[otakuryoga]

i assume the suggestion spell woulda been neutralized if :vaarsuvius: were dead...and since the guy held his breath weapon to use on :elan: i have to believe that HE is the target of this attack...not some kind of revenge attack from Tiamat

[Agi Hammerthief]

i assume the suggestion spell woulda been neutralized if :vaarsuvius: were dead...and since the guy held his breath weapon to use on :elan: i have to believe that HE is the target of this attack...not some kind of revenge attack from Tiamat
but so far they are wayyy to competent to be part of the linear guild.

[Procyonpi]

You know, V USED to know how to give a good suggestion... (See: black dragon)

[Arrowstorm122]

they are from either..
Linear Guild, but i dont think so, they go after more a team than a army.
Tiamat, the Familicide revenge, buuut, dont think, i think its was the same as the one who scyed on them.
Girad, he could also just be the scryer, but i dont really think he will attack them like that (or maybe he would if he thought they was comeing from Soon).
some new side in the war for the gates, which is pretty posslible. but lets just wait and see, i think we find out after the battle.
Nice fight strip Rich :smallbiggrin:

[Arrowstorm122]

and all there blame V,s Suggetion spell, how should she/he/it know that it could use ligthing? it was a fair order i say :smallsmile:
poor Elan

[The Pink Ninja]

*Still amazed people think it is something other than Draconic revenge for V's unfortunate Darth-V outing*

[Snake-Aes]

*Still amazed people think it is something other than Draconic revenge for V's unfortunate Darth-V outing*

That's because you're failing your spot checks.

[Solara]

*Still amazed people think it is something other than Draconic revenge for V's unfortunate Darth-V outing*

I feel like I should sig this or something because it'll be amusing when it turns out not to be the case.

Seriously, I'm sure Familicide will come back to bite V right in the androgynous ass eventually, but this is much too soon and a derail of those proportions makes no sense right now the OotS is finally looking for Girard, and in order to get the main plot moving again they're going to have to find him.

[hamishspence]

I wondered if it might be Half-Draconic revenge (two other half-dragons, being friends of one of the half-black dragons V killed, come to get revenge on V)

Yes- they could be Tiamat's agents. But they could also have no connection to any dragons other than the half-black dragon.

Or they could have no connection to Familicide at all- but I'm a bit doubtful of that.

[Saph]

I wondered if it might be Half-Draconic revenge (two other half-dragons, being friends of one of the half-black dragons V killed, come to get revenge on V)

I'd peg the smaller green one as a Lizardman, personally. Maybe a Greenspawn Sneak if we're going non-core.

[enigmatime]

That's because you're failing your spot checks.

Or Perception Check if you use Pathfinder.

[Woodsman]

Yes- they could be Tiamat's agents. But they could also have no connection to any dragons other than the half-black dragon.

I'm pretty sure that's a half-blue dragon.

Nose horn, lightning breath? Desert environment?

[Snake-Aes]

Why only dragons would seek revenge on abd family? For all that matters, there could be a draconic version of tsukiko around.

That said, I will repeat my point here, in the hopes Pink Ninja won't fail this spot check.

The half dragon and the lizard guy seem to be native to the region.
The bolt and the lizard's tactics so far point to ending the combat without killing the order. It might be so they could be tortured...or it could be so Girard wants a talk with our folks. (I lean towards the latter because it would be too repetitive to bring the whole abd case right now, and we do know someone scried the order very recently. And we do know Girard's crew has every reason in the world to scry there.)
The IFCC appeased Tiamat and expressed a lot of interest in V's wellbeing until the gate matter is done with. Being the schemers they are, what could go through their minds for them to not add V in the truce?

And since people went "omghalfdragonismustbeabd'slonglostandestrangedfour thdegreecousin", Girard is called Girard DRAKETOOTH. If we are going to go with themes like that, Girard has just as many chances of being the guy here than any vengeful dragon.

[ericgrau]

That wouldn't help in the slightest anyway. MS Paint is about as useful for discerning the layers in a Photoshop file as a wet paper hanky is for absailing. Plus its been converted to a more suitable, web friendly format as well, eliminating the layers of the image. It would all change colour regardless of whether the blade was there or not.

That's all well and good for seeing if it's stored in the photoshop file, but the point was that regardless the blade isn't there any more, not by even the slightest color variation. It is not merely hard to see.

[Agi Hammerthief]

That's all well and good for seeing if it's stored in the photoshop file, but the point was that regardless the blade isn't there any more, not by even the slightest color variation. It is not merely hard to see.
I'm quite happy the Giant released the comic before trying to resolve the visibility of that blade :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

Well, that definitely supports the big blue assailant being either a half dragon or a dragon disciple. (EDIT: And I'd guess the first, given how so far there's been no hint of spellcasting and he's wearing armour). Hopefully, though, that bolt wouldn't do enough damage to take Elan down to negatives... even if (as it appears) he failed his reflex save.

Their motives etc. are still unspecified, but I strongly suspect a link to the familicide incident. Possibly some friendship or other link with at least one of the murdered relations, possibly being hired by someone with such a link... the scale of what V did leaves lots of options.

Or prehaps Mr. Draketooth?

[JonestheSpy]

You know, I always thought it was pronounced 'boe-zahk'.

[DBear]

Does blue halfdragon have something that gives him piercing DR? Haley's arrows appear to be just bouncing off of him. And if he does, wouldn't Elan's rapier not do any damage either?

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure that's a half-blue dragon.

Nose horn, lightning breath? Desert environment?

I got that- I was hypothesising that they were members of a group of half-dragons with different colours.

Black, green, blue, etc half dragons- all friends, until one was killed by Familicide.

Large half-dragons normally have wings, Medium ones normally don't (in 3.5)- so the fact that the green creature doesn't have wings is not a problem.

[ericgrau]

I'm quite happy the Giant released the comic before trying to resolve the visibility of that blade :smallbiggrin:
Lol good point. Yeah, I like figuring things out.

[pinwiz]

Does blue halfdragon have something that gives him piercing DR? Haley's arrows appear to be just bouncing off of him. And if he does, wouldn't Elan's rapier not do any damage either?

I took that to mean that she just couldn't get past his AC. Mostly this is because they are bouncing off of his armor. That also makes me think that they are higher level than the Order and another point to being associated with the epic level illusionist.

yay for pet theories :smalltongue:

[Bongos]

I feel that the speed of plot demands some progress towards resolving the main plot at the current moment with sub plots returning later. I'm feeling these guys are agents of Draketooth more than the familicide revenge angle. I mean they are going after the whole crew and not just V right?

[Shatteredtower]

Comparing Haley to a dog? Nice to see the reptilian perspective of mammals for a change. Makes as much sense of referring to a dragon as a lizard.

Nice to see that V took a lesson from Lizard Time. Is it a coincidence that this encounter with half-dragons is the first time we've seen the elf use it since the first fight with a dragon. Clue, red herring, or coincidence? Eh, it's all good.

Also nice to see Elan attempt a hasty Diplomacy check there. Not surprising that he, lacking skill (among other features) optimization, couldn't beat the -10 penalty, but I think that's better for the story. Still glad to see him make the attempt. The occasional bout of moderate efficacy is one of the things I like about the guy.

[Kumo]

Nice to see that V took a lesson from Lizard Time. Is it a coincidence that this encounter with half-dragons is the first time we've seen the elf use it since the first fight with a dragon. Clue, red herring, or coincidence? Eh, it's all good.

Considering we were told it was one of three spells that V knew that could be cast without moving or speaking properly (feather fall and hold portal being the other two) it's not all that surprising.

[Torick]

I took that to mean that she just couldn't get past his AC. Mostly this is because they are bouncing off of his armor. That also makes me think that they are higher level than the Order and another point to being associated with the epic level illusionist.

yay for pet theories :smalltongue:

Good point - Haley seemingly missing repeatedly against these two assailants, with a +5 bow no less, is difficult to explain with anything other than these guys simply having a few levels over the Order. And that, coupled with a few holes that have already been poked here in the Familicide theory, coupled with the nonlethal tactics apparently being used, are making me warm to the theory that Girard's been tipped off to their efforts and is attempting to capture them for questioning.

[Dvandemon]

Ooh, ranseur. Nasty.

Nice to see the Order in combat again!

I thought it was a bident

[Petrocorus]

Funny thing that our green friend has no idea what a "bahzock" could be... :smallsmile:

What is a bahzock actually?



But in the rush of combat, everyone makes mistakes I suppose. As others have said, perfect people make terrible stories.

And yet, there are a lot of them in TV shows.

[Wanderer]

I'd think that, rather than just learn spells without somatic requirements, V would take Still Spell. An easy metamagic feat. I never bother with it personally, because the times my characters have been physically restrained but still conscious and able to speak are next to none, and there are other feats that more directly add combat benefits. But since V apparently considers being unable to move a significant concern, I would figure he would have taken it.

[RickDaily12]

Lmao... poor Elan.:smallbiggrin: Gets thrown back too many times.

What the hell are these guys' problems? Why are they attacking the OOTS?:smallconfused:

[Silverraptor]

I'm a little confused on what's happening.:smallconfused: You owe us some quick answers here giant.:smalltongue:

[Herald Alberich]

*Still amazed people think it is something other than Draconic revenge for V's unfortunate Darth-V outing*

*still amazed people are so fixated on one theory they refuse to entertain other perfectly reasonable ideas*


I'd think that, rather than just learn spells without somatic requirements, V would take Still Spell. An easy metamagic feat. I never bother with it personally, because the times my characters have been physically restrained but still conscious and able to speak are next to none, and there are other feats that more directly add combat benefits. But since V apparently considers being unable to move a significant concern, I would figure he would have taken it.

Maybe he doesn't think it's a significant enough concern to spend a feat on either, not to mention the higher-level spell slots he'd need to use for the Stilled spells. Significant enough to prepare a couple Suggestions per day, sure; that's not nearly as big a sacrifice.

[Wanderer]

Maybe he doesn't think it's a significant enough concern to spend a feat on either, not to mention the higher-level spell slots he'd need to use for the Stilled spells. Significant enough to prepare a couple Suggestions per day, sure; that's not nearly as big a sacrifice.

Oh... Wizard. Sorry. My bad. I always prefer Sorcerers, and I completely forgot that any slots V used to prepare stilled spells would be slots he wouldn't have free for something else. Nevermind.

[Memplejemple]

*slaps hands to mouth* Second... Last... Panel...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html

That's a plausible and creative theory. I think its at least as merited as the familicide theory.

But these opponents were probably sent by Girard. Speed of plot and all, and Rich has spent panels elapsing time for the Order to search for him. HOWEVER, the theories are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, quite possibly (if unlikely) these could be vengeful relatives already within the MOB recruited by Girard, who may or may not have had knowledge of the mercenaries' intent or pasts.

[Mooplaid]

I really don't think that it's a half dragon. When it popped up in the last comic, I immediately figured it to be a Bluespawn Godslayer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=4). I could be mistaken, however it seems to fit. V is an enemy of Tiamat.

And after years of reading OOTS, my first post. :smallbiggrin:

[CelebrenIthil]

And since people went "omghalfdragonismustbeabd'slonglostandestrangedfour thdegreecousin", Girard is called Girard DRAKETOOTH. If we are going to go with themes like that, Girard has just as many chances of being the guy here than any vengeful dragon.

I know!!! Girard was adopted by a dragon, and thus escaped the familicide spell, but still lost some family to it and now seeks reveeeeennnngggeeee!

/crazy loony theory

[DeltaEmil]

Oh... Wizard. Sorry. My bad. I always prefer Sorcerers, and I completely forgot that any slots V used to prepare stilled spells would be slots he wouldn't have free for something else. Nevermind.The same is true for sorcerors, even if they can spontaneously cast spells. Also, they'd need a full-round action for a metamagic-applied spell to go off... Which makes one of the most useful metamagic techniques useless to them...

[DSCrankshaw]

and all there blame V,s Suggetion spell, how should she/he/it know that it could use ligthing? it was a fair order i say :smallsmile:
poor Elan

Well, aside from the fact that it's obviously a dragonish creature, and likely a half-dragon, and all half-dragons have some sort of breath attack... no reason at all, really.


The same is true for sorcerors, even if they can spontaneously cast spells. Also, they'd need a full-round action for a metamagic-applied spell to go off... Which makes one of the most useful metamagic techniques useless to them...

But they don't have to prepare the spells as still spells ahead of time. They can use any spell they have, just by spending a higher spell slot and some extra time.


I still like the idea of Elan being mistaken as Nale. One reason I like it is that it's not directly connected to the main plot. We know (or at least have significant plot-reason to believe) that the whole mess of Elan's and Haley's dads has to be resolved while they're on the desert continent--and thus before the battle for the gate when it's time to leave for the next one--but we also know that neither Elan nor Haley intend to seek them out (Elan doesn't even know about his dad). Thus, there's a need for an external impetus that leads into that subplot.

As for these being Girard's people... well, for reasons stated above, it's too soon. Once they find the gate, go to it, fight Xykon, and whatnot, there'll be little opportunity to explore the fathers subplot.

[Shatteredtower]

Considering we were told it was one of three spells that V knew that could be cast without moving or speaking properly (feather fall and hold portal being the other two) it's not all that surprising.

No, but that wasn't the point. It's natural, sure, but still good to see acknowledged. I just find it interesting that this has only come up against dragons thus far.

[brionl]

Actually, there isn't. Tiamat herself's reigning her clerics.

I'm sure a Chaotic Evil deity would never lie to a fellow evil outsider. Or change her mind(s). Inconceivable!

[amuletts]

Oh no, Haley's bow! Oh well, easy come, easy go.

[Zxo]

I'm sure a Chaotic Evil deity would never lie to a fellow evil outsider. Or change her mind(s). Inconceivable!

Tiamat wants revenge and the fiends promised it. Im sure they told her that their ability to take control of V is crucial in their plan to get enough power to be able to fulfill this promise. So Tiamat has no reason to wish V dead at this stage.

[Wanderer]

The same is true for sorcerors, even if they can spontaneously cast spells. Also, they'd need a full-round action for a metamagic-applied spell to go off... Which makes one of the most useful metamagic techniques useless to them...

It's not the higher-level-slot requirement that I forgot, it's that if a wizard wants to cast a still spell he has to dedicate a slot to that spell and that slot can't be used for anything else even if he never casts the still spell. That makes it a lot harder to justify wasting that slot just on the off chance that the wizard might find themselves able to speak but not move.

As for the sorcerer's limitations with metamagic, I admit that's one part of 3.5 I didn't like. I felt they kind of used the nerf bat a bit too heavily on the casters. But then, that may just be because those nerfs ruined several of my more common winning strategies.

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure metamagic made spontaneously-cast spells full-round actions in 3.0ed, too.

[Iamyourking]

I'm sure a Chaotic Evil deity would never lie to a fellow evil outsider. Or change her mind(s). Inconceivable!

Well then, it's a good thing that Tiamat is Lawful Evil and known for her cooperation with the Baatezu.

[Herald Alberich]

Oh... Wizard. Sorry. My bad. I always prefer Sorcerers, and I completely forgot that any slots V used to prepare stilled spells would be slots he wouldn't have free for something else. Nevermind.

Heh, that's understandable; I played Sorcerers on the two occasions I was able to join actual games as well. Planning ahead is not my strong suit; I'd rather have the full range of abilities available, even if that range is more limited.

[Hithros]

Yipes, two down and one unarmed.
Say, what kind of weapon was the lizard-person using?
And it doesn't have a edge enough to kill the bow?

[sum1won]

Its a Slithzerikai!

[Maelstrom]

Yipes, two down and one unarmed.
Say, what kind of weapon was the lizard-person using?
And it doesn't have a edge enough to kill the bow?

Military Fork most likely

[Kumo]

Seems like they were only after Elan and V for some reason...

[enigmatime]

That's a plausible and creative theory. I think its at least as merited as the familicide theory.

But these opponents were probably sent by Girard. Speed of plot and all, and Rich has spent panels elapsing time for the Order to search for him. HOWEVER, the theories are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, quite possibly (if unlikely) these could be vengeful relatives already within the MOB recruited by Girard, who may or may not have had knowledge of the mercenaries' intent or pasts.

That's sorta what I was getting at, yes. Now with the new comic up, my theory has been thrown out the window completelly. They didn't seem like they were after Haley. In fact, they said they were leaving her, so, yeah.

[Selif]

This is bad. I do not like the attitude of that lizard ninja iod-bandity-whatchamajigger. Every time V has used a suggestion, something like this has happened. (S)he should take some time to work out generalized loopholes.

-Selif

[Kumo]

No, but that wasn't the point. It's natural, sure, but still good to see acknowledged. I just find it interesting that this has only come up against dragons thus far.

That's because in every other situation everything else could be easily blown up =P

[Agi Hammerthief]

Lol good point. Yeah, I like figuring things out.
it's fixed now

[Shatteredtower]

That's because in every other situation everything else could be easily blown up =P

That's... a strong argument. There have been exceptions, but I concede the point.

[Herald Alberich]

That's... a strong argument. There have been exceptions, but I concede the point.

I think it'd be more accurate to say that in no other situation except against these two dragons has V been unable to cast spells with somatic components. His usual Evocations and Disintegrate require movement, so that's what we see from him.