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TheYoungKing
2010-04-09, 07:07 AM
What was WoTC's design decision behind Perfect Self and its ilk? I mean the "transform into an Outsider" capstone classes.

I mean, it sounds awesome at first. I'm so powerful I transcend the bounds of humanity! But then you realize all you get out of it is Darkvision out to 60 feet and a bunch of buffs (and, admittedly, some negative effects) suddenly don't apply to you. But the loss of buffs, especially at such a high level, kills it power-wise.

So, did WOTC think these through, or did they just get lost in the awesome fluff behind it? Or are there some perks to being an Outsider I'm not seeing (that WoTC did)?


Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

Optimystik
2010-04-09, 07:14 AM
The biggest fluff buff (hey, that rhymes!) is that you live forever - Outsiders don't die of old age.

Crunch-wise, there are lots of great Outsiders out there, which you are now eligible to become with a level 2 spell.

Perfect Self is great, but suffering through 20 levels of monk to get there is the biggest drawback. There are better ways to become an Outsider.

hamishspence
2010-04-09, 07:15 AM
This is not in fact mentioned in the Outsider description in MM.

Some outsiders are explicitly specified as not aging, but not all.

Native Outsiders generally do age, and die of age, for example- Races of Destiny has aging tables for the aasimar and the tiefling.

And doesn't it say in the Monk class "The monk still dies when their time is up"?

TheYoungKing
2010-04-09, 07:21 AM
And doesn't it say in the Monk class "The monk still dies when their time is up"?

That is Druid. And the Monk is not specified as a Native Outsider, although it would fit under the description.

Optimystik
2010-04-09, 07:30 AM
And doesn't it say in the Monk class "The monk still dies when their time is up"?

I always figured that was for monks who made it to Timeless Body, but stopped before reaching Perfect Self.

The Immortality Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0) has achieving Outsider status as one of the ways, along with PrCs that grant this (e.g. Acolyte of the Skin.) Perhaps they meant in conjuction with PAO?

Runestar
2010-04-09, 07:32 AM
There are quite a few monsters who have trouble overcoming dr/magic as they do not wield weapons, such as the pit fiend. So dr/magic is surprisingly still effective even at higher lvs.

Kris Strife
2010-04-09, 07:40 AM
There are quite a few monsters who have trouble overcoming dr/magic as they do not wield weapons, such as the pit fiend. So dr/magic is surprisingly still effective even at higher lvs.

Yeah, but most of the mid-high level monsters' natural weapons count as magic weapons, so its still pretty much the most useless DR type.

grautry
2010-04-09, 07:41 AM
There are quite a few monsters who have trouble overcoming dr/magic as they do not wield weapons, such as the pit fiend. So dr/magic is surprisingly still effective even at higher lvs.

You need to reread the description of "Damage Reduction" in the Special Abilities section of the SRD.

EDIT: Sigh, ninja'ed.

Runestar
2010-04-09, 07:56 AM
Yeah, but most of the mid-high level monsters' natural weapons count as magic weapons, so its still pretty much the most useless DR type.

Not really, mostly dragons and those with the half-fiend/fiendish templates. The rest don't seem to have any special ability to overcome dr/magic, though you could always just give them oils of greater magic fang.

Fiends in particular, since their attacks typically count as only good.

hamishspence
2010-04-09, 08:34 AM
I always figured that was for monks who made it to Timeless Body, but stopped before reaching Perfect Self.

SRD on Outsiders:


Outsider Type
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

Features
An outsider has the following features.

•8-sided Hit Dice.
•Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
•Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
•Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

•Darkvision out to 60 feet.
•Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
•Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
•Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
•Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

No mention of not dying of aging.

Also I checked the Monk, and for Timeless Body, it states that it dies of old age once time is up (nothing in Perfect Self overrides this.)

the Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn does gain true immortality, though.

Indon
2010-04-09, 08:47 AM
Mind that hitting a capstone that turns you into an outsider does not quite turn you into an Outsider per se, but instead turns you into an Outsider with the (Native) subtype.

Native subtype Outsiders can be raised, for instance.

TheYoungKing
2010-04-09, 09:00 AM
Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

This, I think, implies they DON'T have the native subtype (otherwise, it would just say that they are treated as a native outsider)

Telonius
2010-04-09, 09:07 AM
"•Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry."

Never noticed that little bit ... so at level 20, Monk finally becomes proficient in Gauntlets, huh? :smallbiggrin:

Totally Guy
2010-04-09, 09:16 AM
•Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).

So it jumps up from 15 to a full 20 then?

FishAreWet
2010-04-09, 09:19 AM
•Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).

So it jumps up from 15 to a full 20 then?

Only Outsider HD. Which the monk has none of.

jiriku
2010-04-09, 09:21 AM
•Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).

So it jumps up from 15 to a full 20 then?

Sadly, no. That line applies to outsider hit dice, of which a human monk has none. He has only monk hit dice.

To build on optimystik's thought pattern, I'd say the fluff buff is just rough stuff, not enough stuff for a tough buff, as the designers originally thought.

Edit: Nobody expects ninja fishes!

Eldonauran
2010-04-09, 09:30 AM
Monks DO NOT become outsiders with perfect self.


Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.

They are treated as outsiders for the purposes of spells and magical effects. All this little section of text means is that they are not longer considered humanoid (or whatever they used to be) when affected my magical means. Charm person no longer affects them, but planar binding will.

I am continually amazed at how often this little section of text appears to be overlooked.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-09, 09:34 AM
Monks DO NOT become outsiders with perfect self.



They are treated as outsiders for the purposes of spells and magical effects. All this little section of text means is that they are not longer considered humanoid (or whatever they used to be) when affected my magical means. Charm person no longer affects them, but planar binding will.

I am continually amazed at how often this little section of text appears to be overlooked.Wow. That's even worse, if it's at all possible.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-09, 09:35 AM
I mean, it sounds awesome at first. I'm so powerful I transcend the bounds of humanity! But then you realize all you get out of it is Darkvision out to 60 feet and a bunch of buffs (and, admittedly, some negative effects) suddenly don't apply to you. But the loss of buffs, especially at such a high level, kills it power-wise.

So, did WOTC think these through, or did they just get lost in the awesome fluff behind it? Or are there some perks to being an Outsider I'm not seeing (that WoTC did)?

1) The thought DR 10/magic was awesome back in the day. It should have been DR 10/epic or DR 10/blunt or DR 10/-.
- Why
a. DR 10/ Blunt because then it makes monks good at fighting monks. Which is thematically appropriate.
b. DR 10/- Epic? Because that makes them pretty good against most creatures (till you go epic next lv)
c. DR 10/- because then it would be most useful vs everything.

2) Awesome fluff/resistances (no Charm/dominate person).

Zeta Kai
2010-04-09, 11:27 AM
Monks DO NOT become outsiders with perfect self.



They are treated as outsiders for the purposes of spells and magical effects. All this little section of text means is that they are not longer considered humanoid (or whatever they used to be) when affected my magical means. Charm person no longer affects them, but planar binding will.

I am continually amazed at how often this little section of text appears to be overlooked.

So, they become immune to effects which target humanoids specifically & exclusively. Wow, I'm sure glad I grinded through 267 level-appropriate encounters for that. :smallyuk:

Optimystik
2010-04-09, 11:34 AM
Wow. That's even worse, if it's at all possible.

Indeed - no new proficiencies, no increase in BAB. Yes, I did flub that.

However, at least Alter Self shenanigans still work, as well as being immune to Dominate Person, and being one step closer if one wants to PAO into a true outsider.


SRD on Outsiders:
...
No mention of not dying of aging.

Strange. I wonder why the Immortality Handbook used it then? I must be missing something.

Prime32
2010-04-09, 11:43 AM
I would change the DR to 10/epic myself.

hamishspence
2010-04-09, 11:57 AM
Strange. I wonder why the Immortality Handbook used it then? I must be missing something.

Maybe it was a case of making assumptions- assuming that all fey, outsiders, elementals, etc are immortal without checking to see if that was how the rules work?

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-09, 12:03 PM
Maybe it was a case of making assumptions- assuming that all fey, outsiders, elementals, etc are immortal without checking to see if that was how the rules work?

To be fair, it WOULD be rather silly for an animate pile of rocks to die of old age. I think outside of the odd PrC, only Deities, Warforged, and Elans are explicitly unable to die of old age.

hamishspence
2010-04-09, 12:12 PM
There's PRCs and templates that allow characters to have the elemental type. But they don't generally specify "the character is now immortal"

Starbuck_II
2010-04-09, 12:31 PM
There's PRCs and templates that allow characters to have the elemental type. But they don't generally specify "the character is now immortal"

Well, are you actually elemental type or count as it like Monk "count as but aren't".

hamishspence
2010-04-09, 12:35 PM
Bonded Summoner (Miniatures Handbook) Elemental Archon (Faiths & Pantheons) and Elemental Savant (Complete Arcane)

are all phrased as "Your type changes to elemental".

Optimystik
2010-04-09, 12:36 PM
Well, are you actually elemental type or count as it like Monk "count as but aren't".

Elemental Savant is in CArc, and makes you an actual elemental.

Note that the Monk is listed as a bad choice in the handbook, meaning the author knew the difference (though I missed it.)

EDIT: Ninja'd by hamish, but he left out the one from Frostburn. Winterhaunt?

Eldariel
2010-04-09, 03:00 PM
There are quite a few monsters who have trouble overcoming dr/magic as they do not wield weapons, such as the pit fiend. So dr/magic is surprisingly still effective even at higher lvs.

I recall being able to overcome DR/Alignment automatically overcomes DR/Magic; basically, in tiers of DR, DR/Magic is the lowest and if a creature bypasses the DR of any type, it automatically ignores DR/Magic. This is...in DMG or MM, don't remember for sure.

hamishspence
2010-04-09, 03:50 PM
Elemental Savant is in CArc, and makes you an actual elemental.

Note that the Monk is listed as a bad choice in the handbook, meaning the author knew the difference (though I missed it.)

EDIT: Ninja'd by hamish, but he left out the one from Frostburn. Winterhaunt?

I picked those 3 because they were the first that sprung to mind (and are generic, can represent any of the big four elements)

Winterhaunts become elementals, yes- they also gain the Evil subtype at the same time.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-09, 05:04 PM
I recall being able to overcome DR/Alignment automatically overcomes DR/Magic; basically, in tiers of DR, DR/Magic is the lowest and if a creature bypasses the DR of any type, it automatically ignores DR/Magic. This is...in DMG or MM, don't remember for sure.
Actually, that's in 3.0. That was changed in the move to 3.5. Used to be your +5 weapon would get through any DR that wasn't /+6 or better. Now it's stymied by DR/Silver, DR/Cold Iron, DR/Adamantine....

Eldariel
2010-04-09, 05:27 PM
Actually, that's in 3.0. That was changed in the move to 3.5. Used to be your +5 weapon would get through any DR that wasn't /+6 or better. Now it's stymied by DR/Silver, DR/Cold Iron, DR/Adamantine....

Huh. I coulda sworn I've read creatures with natural weapons counting as Evil/Good/Lawful/Chaotic overcome DR/Magic as if their weapons were Magic. Weird.

hamishspence
2010-04-09, 05:31 PM
I checked DR in the Monster Manual- it doesn't mention that.

In theory, a monster with the Law subtype, but not DR/Magic, will overcome DR/Lawful, with natural weapons and melee weapons, but, without a magic weapon, it shouldn't overcome DR/magic.

Same with a monster with any other alignment subtype.

Optimystik
2010-04-09, 06:02 PM
Huh. I coulda sworn I've read creatures with natural weapons counting as Evil/Good/Lawful/Chaotic overcome DR/Magic as if their weapons were Magic. Weird.

Don't a lot of things that grant those bonuses count as magic? Say, Axiomatic Weapon. Would that overcome DR/Lawful and Magic, or just DR/Lawful?

Eldariel
2010-04-09, 06:08 PM
Don't a lot of things that grant those bonuses count as magic? Say, Axiomatic Weapon. Would that overcome DR/Lawful and Magic, or just DR/Lawful?

Yeah. Thinking of natural weapons here tho.

Runestar
2010-04-09, 06:09 PM
Don't a lot of things that grant those bonuses count as magic? Say, Axiomatic Weapon. Would that overcome DR/Lawful and Magic, or just DR/Lawful?

A balor wielding a +1 vorpal longsword? Yes.

A pitfiend attacking with its claws? No. Unless you gave it a magical weapon, amulet of mighty fists or had it use wish to replicate superior magic fang or something.

Animals also have trouble punching through dr. You will be surprised at how many monsters don't wield weapons. Of course, I am also talking about the general usefulness of dr/magic on a PC in general, and not just at lv20.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-09, 07:21 PM
Not really, mostly dragons and those with the half-fiend/fiendish templates. The rest don't seem to have any special ability to overcome dr/magic, though you could always just give them oils of greater magic fang.

Fiends in particular, since their attacks typically count as only good.

Actually, any creature with DR/magic means that all of its natural attacks count as magic for overcoming DR/magic. Therefore, most outsiders should have some means to overcome it.

tyckspoon
2010-04-09, 09:08 PM
Actually, any creature with DR/magic means that all of its natural attacks count as magic for overcoming DR/magic. Therefore, most outsiders should have some means to overcome it.

Depends on the outsider. The alignment outsiders typically also have alignment-based DR.. and not /magic.

Runestar
2010-04-09, 09:21 PM
Actually, any creature with DR/magic means that all of its natural attacks count as magic for overcoming DR/magic. Therefore, most outsiders should have some means to overcome it.

Most fiends don't have dr/magic, typically dr/alignment+metallic.

hamishspence
2010-04-10, 03:35 AM
Does DR/epic count as also being magical for the purposes of determining this sort of thing?

An demon lord with DR/epic & evil & cold iron, for example, should be able to punch through DR/magic, since normally epic weapons are also magic weapons.

Also- concerning Perfect Self:


Monks DO NOT become outsiders with perfect self.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060718a

Even Wizards seems to think it actually changes the creature's type even though it's not phrased that way:


When a Creature's Type Changes

Some changes in a creature's type are temporary, such as when a spellcaster uses a shapechange spell to assume another creature's form and type. Most changes in type, however, are more or less permanent, such as when a human character becomes a 20th-level monk and gains the outsider type (while losing his original humanoid type).

From page 42 of Player's Handbook:

Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk has tuned her body with skill and quasi-magical abilities to the point that she becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider (an extraplanar creature) rather than as a humanoid for the purpose of spells and magical effects. For instance, charm person does not affect her. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore (instantly regenerate) the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn't have similar damage reduction (see Damage Reduction, page 291 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

Runestar
2010-04-10, 04:49 AM
Does DR/epic count as also being magical for the purposes of determining this sort of thing?

Probably, since dr/epic is simply souped up dr/magic. Custserv also said yes, for whatever it is worth.

magic9mushroom
2010-04-10, 05:29 AM
Mind that hitting a capstone that turns you into an outsider does not quite turn you into an Outsider per se, but instead turns you into an Outsider with the (Native) subtype.

Native subtype Outsiders can be raised, for instance.

Divine Disciple instead gives you the subtypes corresponding to shared stuff between you and your deity (so, for example, if your deity's CG and you're NG, you gain (Good)).

And Outsider (Native)s are still Outsiders.


Elemental Savant is in CArc, and makes you an actual elemental.

Note that the Monk is listed as a bad choice in the handbook, meaning the author knew the difference (though I missed it.)

EDIT: Ninja'd by hamish, but he left out the one from Frostburn. Winterhaunt?

Winterhaunt of Iborighu. Makes you an Elemental (Cold) IIRC. From the same book, Rimefire Witch makes you a fey.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-10, 05:33 AM
Does DR/epic count as also being magical for the purposes of determining this sort of thing?...

Can't give you a source, but yes, anything that can beat or has DR/Epic automatically overcomes DR/Magic as a byproduct.

magic9mushroom
2010-04-10, 05:37 AM
Can't give you a source, but yes, anything that can beat or has DR/Epic automatically overcomes DR/Magic as a byproduct.

It doesn't need saying.

Things with DR/Epic have their natural weapons count as Epic weapons for purposes of overcoming DR.

Epic weapons are a subset of Magic weapons.

lesser_minion
2010-04-10, 07:30 AM
Can't give you a source, but yes, anything that can beat or has DR/Epic automatically overcomes DR/Magic as a byproduct.

For purposes of damage reduction, but not actual attack and damage rolls, a creature with DR /epic is treated as having weapons with a +6 enhancement bonus.

I would be rather shocked if they weren't valid when only a +1 enhancement is needed.