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NiteCyper
2010-04-09, 07:39 AM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7643.0

Say my goal is a Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Hide.htm) check +30 mod, 24/7.

Unseelie Feyaz? Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3)bz Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) 1 (0 XP) with 18 Dexcz (b4 racial adjustments), the Illiterated trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm), two cross-class rankse in Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Hide.htm), 2 flaws, and one open feat slot.
zSparrow Hengeyokai animal form obsolesces.

1a+1b+4b+4b+4c+1d+2e=+17.

The best I can devote the two feat slots to stealth is to "Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws)" (+4 Hide & MS) and "Fade into Darkness" (+5 Hide, awake) or "Flexible Mind [Anarchic]" (+3 Hide & MS). The open feat slot, otherwise, defaults to the "Intensify Darkness" feat (for stealthy sleep) or the "Darkstalker" feat. I assume the Beguiler (ShS) race is cohort-only. A masterwork Hide-tool (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=015155386140379294602%3Ak9hv7ukafn4&cof=FORID%3A1&q=masterwork+tool&sa=GO) is 50 gp which is above a quarter of my total wealth, therefore invalid creation. Two feats are "Entangling Exhalation" and the "Blend into Shadows" feat. The secondary base (class) option (i.e. Warlock) frees up a feat slot. Warlock's starting gold is not. Dragonfire Adept's "Starting Gold: 2d4×10 (50 gp)". (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)

P.S. would it be okay to cite "Forgotten Realms Helps"?

[2010-12-10T11:28:43-0500]
Nobody corrected my bad addition ("baddition") skills (1+1+4+5+4+1+2=/=+17), nor my mis-statement of the Whisper Gnome racial skill bonus.

Yora
2010-04-09, 08:01 AM
You seem to have the bonuses from whipser gnome twice.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-09, 08:15 AM
Becoming psychic warrior instead of dragonfire adept would grant you +5 (compression - additional +1 from Dex, +4 from size) and +10 (chameleon - which you could get via Hidden Talent).

You could also get an Aid Another bonus from a psicrystal (+2, obviously), and later on grab some serious Hide-buffage from metamorphosis.

ericgrau
2010-04-09, 09:06 AM
Awakened house-cat, +20 in tall grass and undergrowth. Commoners tending wheat will never see you coming.

jokey665
2010-04-09, 09:19 AM
Awakened house-cat, +20 in tall grass and undergrowth. Commoners tending wheat will never see you coming.

What you need to do is sovereign glue some tall grass to you. Permanent hide bonus. :smallbiggrin:

NiteCyper
2010-04-09, 09:56 AM
You seem to have the bonuses from whipser gnome twice.

+1 from +2 Dex, +4 from size (Small), and +4 racial.


Becoming psychic warrior instead of dragonfire adept would grant you +5 (compression - additional +1 from Dex, +4 from size) and +10 (chameleon - which you could get via Hidden Talent).

You could also get an Aid Another bonus from a psicrystal (+2, obviously), and later on grab some serious Hide-buffage from metamorphosis.

1. Psychic Warrior grants a bonus to Dex? Thank you for your suggestions, but...
2. seeing as how the Psychic Warrior relies on Wisdom for bonus power points, they aren't allotted any by their class at first level, this character is looking for SAD (Dex), and "Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm)" only lasts 1 round/level, I find that this is not a bonus that lasts 24/7 at level 1.
3. I mean to keep having the "Dragonfire Adept" (or "Warlock") base class as the level 1 base for their magical Darkness invocation to fuel the "Blend into Shadows" (DotU) feat, as well as the DfA's Entangling Exhalation.
4. "Metamorphosis" isn't a "Psychic Warrior" power,
5. "Psicrystal Affinity" requires an extra feat (that the "Psychic Warrior" can get through one of their bonus feats), it only works (20-6)/20=7/10 times (due to 15 Dex + same ranks), and the Psicrystal can give away one's position.


Awakened house-cat, +20 in tall grass and undergrowth. Commoners tending wheat will never see you coming.

Thank you for your suggestion. May you refer me to any rules on awakened creatures as a PC race (i.e. does this require a DM fiat)? It seems impossible due to being granted 2 HD upon awakening, thus being placed at an ECL beyond 1.

Heavy undergrowth (which includes tall grass?) provides a +5 circumstance bonus to Hide checks, so that'd be +25, unless the clause in the (common house)cat's refers to the circumstance bonus itself which results in only +24.


What you need to do is sovereign glue some tall grass to you. Permanent hide bonus. :smallbiggrin:

1. Thank you for your suggestion, but...
2. this only works in the proper area,
3. the effect of direct application of sovereign glue to one's person has immediate down-sides,
4. one could create something in the same spirit called a "ghillie" suit, but I assume the GM would have to have it be crafted as a masterwork tool before offering a full +2 circumstance bonus. Nor is it within my convenience to craft, nor is such a task valid for its price, nor do I assume a shoddy, +1 tool is universally allowed.

[2010-12-10T11:25:11-0500]
Corrigendum: "+5" became "+4" for the Whisper Gnome racial skill bonus.

Darrin
2010-04-09, 07:22 PM
Have you considered Hengeyokai in Sparrow form? As a fine-sized creature with a 22 dex, they have a +22 hide bonus at ECL 1 without any other templates or class features. (They also have a +14 bonus on ranged touch attacks.)

ericgrau
2010-04-09, 08:05 PM
Housecat was just being silly, as was the sovereign glue suggestion I hope. A non-awakened one might loosely fit, but is still not playable. A cat's hide modifier is 16, 20 in tall grass or undergrowth, apparently 25 in heavy undergrowth.

arguskos
2010-04-09, 08:13 PM
TIBBITS GUYS, TIBBITS. If you're going to suggest an awakened Housecat, why not just play a damned Tibbit already? They don't even have LA.

wadledo
2010-04-09, 08:28 PM
Beguilers, from Shining South, are small (+4), and get +8 to Hide when dry.
They also get +6 to Dex.

jiriku
2010-04-09, 08:33 PM
You might also consider deferring Darkstalker to a later level in place of the Stealthy feat. Offhand, I can't think of more than 3-4 foes that a level 1 party could reasonably survive that have blindsight, blindsense, or tremorsense, so unless your first adventure involves fighting through a bat swarm on the way into a cave filled with grimlocks and their thoqqua pets, you'll probably make it to level 2 without needing Darkstalker. At which point you can buy a couple masterwork tools, retrain the feat, and call it even.

Really, if you're going to worry about enemies with exotic detection methods at level 1, your first priority should be addressing creatures with the scent ability, as they're exceedingly common in the CR 1-3 range.

arguskos
2010-04-09, 08:40 PM
Avoiding scent is easy though, just use catstink (Dragon Compendium, pg 117) to confuse them. Foiling Blindsense? Significantly tougher.

NiteCyper
2010-04-09, 10:51 PM
TIBBITS GUYS, TIBBITS. If you're going to suggest an awakened Housecat, why not just play a damned Tibbit already? They don't even have LA.

Creatures without a listed LA aren't suitable as a PC race.

@post-beneath: Your words ring true. My earlier run-throughs were tainted with my assertion.

Eurus
2010-04-09, 10:54 PM
Creatures without a listed LA aren't suitable as a PC race.

No, they actually have a +0 LA. They're intended as a PC race. Dragon Compendium, I think.

NiteCyper
2010-04-09, 11:05 PM
Have you considered Hengeyokai in Sparrow form? As a fine-sized creature with a 22 dex, they have a +22 hide bonus at ECL 1 without any other templates or class features. (They also have a +14 bonus on ranged touch attacks.)

"Alternate Form: ... This supernatural ability func-
tions like the polymorph other spell, but a hengeyokai can
change form a number of times per day equal to 1 plus his
character level."

I have checked the spells section of "Oriental Adventures", the errata, and the 3.5 update. I see no mention of this polymorph other (http://www.google.ca/search?q=polymorph+other+spell) spell in 3.5e.

re: Tibbit: Tinya (2 sizes below medium), +2 Dexb, +2 Dex beyond the precedent in cat formc.

4a+4a+1b+1c=+10 Hide check due to race. This equals the Whisper Gnome.

The rules are unclear on the use of paws to perform somatic components required for DfA invocations (inferred by ASF), but this is no big worry.

Verdict: Henceforth, I will consider the "Whisper Gnome" race and the "Tibbit" race equally in my deliberations for stealth ((race) options).


Beguilers, from Shining South, are small (+4), and get +8 to Hide when dry.
They also get +6 to Dex.


I assume the Beguiler (ShS) race is cohort-only.

NiteCyper
2010-04-09, 11:32 PM
You might also consider deferring Darkstalker to a later level in place of the Stealthy feat. Offhand, I can't think of more than 3-4 foes that a level 1 party could reasonably survive that have blindsight, blindsense, or tremorsense, so unless your first adventure involves fighting through a bat swarm on the way into a cave filled with grimlocks and their thoqqua pets, you'll probably make it to level 2 without needing Darkstalker. At which point you can buy a couple masterwork tools, retrain the feat, and call it even.

Really, if you're going to worry about enemies with exotic detection methods at level 1, your first priority should be addressing creatures with the scent ability, as they're exceedingly common in the CR 1-3 range.

1. I have three choices potentially better than the "Stealthy" feat.
2. This isn't a level-1 party (i.e. I desire self-sufficiency),
3. I still see your point.
4. Your wit in reference to the researched creatures does not go unappreciated.


Avoiding scent is easy though, just use catstink (Dragon Compendium, pg 117) to confuse them. Foiling Blindsense? Significantly tougher.

5. To my welcome, the "Darkstalker" feat lists "scent" as one of the special abilities it functions upon, rebuking point 3.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-09, 11:56 PM
Jermlaine (MM2).

Tiny Size and +6 Dex, with a 18 base dex, yield a base mod of +15, with no ranks at all. Add in 2 ranks, and a +4 soulmeld bonus, and you're up to +21. From there, a MW skill item gets you +23, all the time, with the ability to possibly hit up to +33 (say, for example, with chameleon ability).

Don't worry about darkstalker right off, unless this is PvP.

Still, with Jermlaine, Druid is an excellent choice.

Note: Racial Bonuses are:

+8 (size) +3 (dex) = +11 racial.

NiteCyper
2010-04-10, 12:19 AM
Jermlaine (MM2).


Creatures without a listed LA aren't suitable as a PC race.

This one, I'm sure as it lists no LA as well as containing no entry for racial traits, as per races intended to be playable as a PC race, e.g. Tibbit.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-10, 01:35 AM
This one, I'm sure as it lists no LA as well as containing no entry for racial traits, as per races intended to be playable as a PC race, e.g. Tibbit.

Jermlaine DOES have a listed LA. +0, per MM2 3.5 update.

Seffbasilisk
2010-04-10, 01:48 AM
Look at the Dark templace, Tome of Magic I believe. Hide in plain sight, racial bonus to Hide that stacks with a Whispergnome's....

NiteCyper
2010-04-10, 02:01 AM
Look at the Dark templace, Tome of Magic I believe. Hide in plain sight, racial bonus to Hide that stacks with a Whispergnome's....

This renders the build beyond ECL 1.

re: Jermlaine update: Wow, well, would you look at that... I think the art-work really puts me off. Stockholm syndrome better kick in quick, or a better race suggestion, like a rule that demonstrates the Beguiler's (ShS) validity as a PC race outside of cohort-ship.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-10, 02:26 AM
What you need to do is sovereign glue some tall grass to you. Permanent hide bonus. :smallbiggrin:

No, you need to glue tall grass to the rest of the plane. Keeping it with you means they can still see the patch of grass you're standing in.

NiteCyper
2010-04-10, 02:46 PM
Can the "Jermlaine", as a Fey, even don the "Unseelie Fey" template? If not, their "total racial Hide bonus" equates to less than that which a "Tibbit" or a "Whisper Gnome" could muster.



"Unseelie fey" is a template that can be added to any
living creature type (referred to hereafter as the "base
creature").

Fey can breed with anything and—except for the
pure-blood-minded seelie court fey—often do. The
offspring of these liaisons are unusual creatures,
blending characteristics of both parents, sometimes
able to pass as a parent's creature type. In turn, these
half-breeds mate and pass on a blend of features
and abilities. After several generations, these mixed
creatures often resemble things out of nightmares or
a mad wizard's experiment.

true_shinken
2010-04-10, 02:55 PM
I have checked the spells section of "Oriental Adventures", the errata, and the 3.5 update. I see no mention of this polymorph other (http://www.google.ca/search?q=polymorph+other+spell) spell in 3.5e. Is not no longer strictly legal?


Dragon Magazine 318 updates hengeyokai for 3.5, you should check there

NiteCyper
2010-04-10, 03:16 PM
Dragon Magazine 318 updates hengeyokai for 3.5, you should check there

I have. The 3.5 update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) you quote me having checked is the article in Dragon Magazine 318. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)

senrath
2010-04-10, 03:20 PM
Yeah, and the errata says to REMOVE the line about Polymorph Other.

Hengeyokai: In the first paragraph of the
Alternate Form special ability, delete “This ability
functions like the polymorph other spell, but”.
In the second paragraph, remove the second
sentence.
In the third paragraph, remove sentences 4 and 5.Emphasis added.

NiteCyper
2010-04-10, 04:11 PM
Yeah, and the errata says to REMOVE the line about Polymorph Other.
Emphasis added.

Sorry, I had only seen the first page of the errata. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!&post_num=303#338377266) This is great!

Sparrow Hengeyokai animal form + Illiterate + 2 ranks = +25 Hide check. Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws) + Fade into Darkness = +9, " + Flexible Mind [Anarchic] = +7.

NiteCyper
2010-04-11, 07:14 PM
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks).

This is not great. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-138353.html)


However, like arcane
spellcasters, a warlock wearing medium or heavy armor or
using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all
invocations, including eldritch blast, have a somatic compo-
nent).


Like arcane spellcasters, a dragonfire adept wearing armor
or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all
invocations have somatic components).


1. As a sparrow, I cannot fulfill the somatic components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components) required of invocations.

2. As I mean to use stealth as a martial advantage, how shall I attack in this form?

NiteCyper
2010-04-12, 01:14 AM
Solved.

1. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/gloss/window&term=Glossary_dnd_spell&alpha=

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body."

2. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060509a

A creature in an assumed form retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or supernatural attacks of its new form.

Spell-like abilities are largely mental. Supernatural abilities arise from a creature's essential nature. Neither a creature's mind nor its true species changes along with a change in a creature's outer form.

Gaze attacks and breath weapons are special cases. A gaze attack depends on how the creature's face (or what serves as a face) is configured. Likewise, a breath weapon requires a specific configuration of lungs (or other internal organs) plus the throat, windpipe, mouth, and other breathing apparatus. For example, a cat's body just can't support a dragon's breath weapon, even when the cat is really a dragon that has assumed a cat's form.

If you read the rules strictly, the loss of gaze attacks and breath weapons applies only when a creature changes form through the alternate form power. The [Alter Self] spell description, for example, implies that any form that has eyes can support a gaze attack and any form with a mouth can support a breath weapon.

This ruling risks overlap of the "Nonverbal Spell" feat, the "Surrogate Spellcasting" feat, and the "Natural Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#naturalSpell)" feat, however they differ enough. Then again, this only addresses the somatic component(s), and there exists no "Nonsomatic Spell".

http://img251.imageshack.us/g/d318p102sage1.png/