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dextercorvia
2010-04-09, 11:09 AM
Complete divine gives several rules for handling what happens when a character receives an extra domain from a PrC. Included in that is the line, "Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters."

So RAW, a CC 4/Wiz1/Divine Oracle 1 (advancing cleric) can cast divine and arcane spells of third level. Since the rules only apply to domains from a PrC, this isn't early entry cheese, but it would allow MT to only drop one level of a primary spellcasting class.

Is there any other way to abuse this?

Edit: Change that to Druid4/Wiz1/DO1

Darklord Xavez
2010-04-09, 11:15 AM
You can only cast 1st level divine spells. Cleric levels don't give you arcane spells.
-Xavez

dextercorvia
2010-04-09, 11:23 AM
But spells from the Oracle domain would count as arcane spells since he is an arcane spellcaster. That would include the 3rd level domain spell cast on the cleric side.

Darklord Xavez
2010-04-09, 11:26 AM
You can't cast 3rd level arcane spells, just one 3rd-level arcane spell.
-Xavez

Optimystik
2010-04-09, 11:28 AM
That clause is a reference to advancing arcane caster level with the domain-granting PrC. If you advance cleric, then the domain spells are divine, not arcane.

dextercorvia
2010-04-09, 11:28 AM
I don't think that one flies. 1 spell of the appropriate level counts for the PrC. Even if a DM would rule that way, Domain Spontaneity would work around that.

Edit Even if

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-09, 11:29 AM
You can't cast 3rd level arcane spells, just one 3rd-level arcane spell.
-Xavez

You mean the same technicality that apparently doesn't work on Precocious Apprentice? (though there is a more valid reason PA doesn't work for such things)

dextercorvia
2010-04-09, 11:30 AM
That clause is a reference to advancing arcane caster level with the domain-granting PrC. If you advance cleric, then the domain spells are divine, not arcane.

Nowhere in the whole description of Extra Domain in CD does it worry which class you are advancing when it gives rules for how domain spells from the bonus domain are handled.

dextercorvia
2010-04-09, 11:32 AM
It does say if a noncleric...

So Amend the build to Druid 4/Wiz 1/DO 1

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-09, 11:36 AM
Nowhere in the whole description of Extra Domain in CD does it worry which class you are advancing when it gives rules for how domain spells from the bonus domain are handled.

You're just being pedantic. Arcane spells can only be cast by arcane spellcasters. Clerics are not arcane spellcasters.

dextercorvia
2010-04-09, 11:38 AM
Perhaps but the statement seems clear enough

Is the character an arcane spellcaster? Yes
Is the character casting a spell from a bonus domain granted from a PrC? Yes

Then, unless that PrC specifies otherwise, that spell is an arcane spell.

Edit to add: That character has a level of Wizard. He is an arcane spellcaster

Ernir
2010-04-09, 02:03 PM
I find that reading... shaky at best. You are taking the line out of context, the context being that of what happens when arcane spellcasters gain access to domains.

If you're using the domain-granting PrC to advance a divine class, the "If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domainís spells instead of one of her usual spells" line would apply instead. You aren't giving the domain to an arcane spellcaster, you are giving it to a divine spellcaster who also happens to have a level in an arcane spellcasting class.

Context is extremely relevant here. =/

You're just being pedantic. Arcane spells can only be cast by arcane spellcasters. Clerics are not arcane spellcasters.
There are a few exceptions to that, though. Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325) and Southern Magician (RoF?) are explicitly for that purpose. =/

Then there's crap like the Dragonsblood Pool (CMage), where divine-casters-get-arcane-spells is just a silly effect of poor wording.

this isn't early entry cheese.

If it works... oh, yes, it is. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-04-09, 03:16 PM
CDiv specifically states that if an arcanist somehow ends up in possession of a Domain, s/he can cast/prepare a spell of that domain once per day for each spell level s/he possess. So that's no problem.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-09, 03:52 PM
Even if the extra domain did allow you to prep Domain spells as a arcane caster, you would prep them at your arcane caster level. A Clr4/Wiz1/DO1 wouldn't get 3rd level arcane domain spells any more than it would get 9th level domain spells

dextercorvia
2010-04-09, 09:18 PM
Even if the extra domain did allow you to prep Domain spells as a arcane caster, you would prep them at your arcane caster level. A Clr4/Wiz1/DO1 wouldn't get 3rd level arcane domain spells any more than it would get 9th level domain spells

It's not the prepping them as an arcane spell, it states that when they are cast by an arcane caster (not just from a spell slot granted by an arcane spellcasting class, but any character that qualifies as an arcane caster) they are arcane spells.

dextercorvia
2010-04-09, 09:31 PM
I find that reading... shaky at best. You are taking the line out of context, the context being that of what happens when arcane spellcasters gain access to domains.

If you're using the domain-granting PrC to advance a divine class, the "If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domainís spells instead of one of her usual spells" line would apply instead. You aren't giving the domain to an arcane spellcaster, you are giving it to a divine spellcaster who also happens to have a level in an arcane spellcasting class.



The first part of that section is indeed if you cast spells like X class, you cast the bonus domain spells as Y. It is a series of if-then statements, none of which is mutually exclusive.

There is nothing in the text that indicates that the spells from a bonus domain can only apply to one of your spellcasting classes. There is certainly nothing that specifies that the domain only applies to the class that is advanced. Bonus Domain, and Spellcasting ability are separate features of the PrC.

Regardless of what you believe about that section, there is nothing in that text to imply that "Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters." means that arcane spellcasters aren't arcane spellcasters if the PrC advanced a character's divine spellcasting instead of his arcane spellcasting.



If it works... oh, yes, it is. :smalltongue:

What I meant is that it doesn't get you into MT any earlier (Still after ECL6), only more beneficial.

I'm not saying that this is RAI at all. I believe that the designers put the line in there to keep a Wiz5/DO1 from claiming 3rd level arcane/divine spellcasting ability. I also believe that they should have stated that "spells granted by a bonus domain are arcane spells when cast from spell slots granted by an arcane spellcasting class, and divine spells when cast from spell slots granted by a divine spellcasting class." But, they didn't. Simply by not assuming exclusivity, a logical reading of the section leads me to my conclusion. I don't think this is improper, because when they want only one class to take advantage of an ability, they usually say it. For example "If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Z PrC, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day. "

QuantumSteve
2010-04-10, 02:00 AM
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It's not the prepping them as an arcane spell, it states that when they are cast by an arcane caster (not just from a spell slot granted by an arcane spellcasting class, but any character that qualifies as an arcane caster) they are arcane spells.

By that reading, you couldn't cast your domain spells as divine ever. Heck, complete divine states:

The wizard then may memorize one domain spell of each level each day.
Since he gets one spell of each level, this mean the sample character could cast 9th level spells, right?
Of course, not! If you read the context of the entry, you'll discover that a wizard does not get domain slots and can only memorize spells in slots he actually has.

If you read the "context" of the entry you're citing, it states that if a wizard gets a domain he can copy that domain spell into his spellbook paying 100gp per page. He can then memorize one domain spell each day. Such spells (meaning domain spells a wizard has copied into his spellbook and then memorized) are considered arcane when cast by an arcane caster.

Spells cast as a cleric, by a cleric don't suddenly become arcane by RAI or by RAW.

dextercorvia
2010-04-10, 09:53 PM
@q-steve

I see what you mean. I was taking the context to be any extra domain spell, but you correct that it is more closely related to those arcane casters casting them as arcane.

I stand corrected. Wishful thinking.