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OMG PONIES
2010-04-09, 01:54 PM
I'm not sure if this counts as Homebrew...if it does, I apologize. I was thinking of a variant rule to make zombie minions scarier. What if, rather than being killed on a successful hit, they were only killed on a successful critical hit? I want to capture the "OH NO ZOMBIES RUN AWAY" feeling more than the "sigh...zombies...put on your wading boots" feeling.

Does this make them too unkillable? I was also toying with something like:
1. Killed outright by a successful critical.
2. Knocked prone by a successful non-critical hit.
3. Unless CdG'd, they stand up on their next turn.

Would either of these ideas fit with a "removing the head or destroying the brain" type of zombie romp?

JasonP
2010-04-09, 02:00 PM
What about only killed on a successful critical or by taking more than x damage in one round (maybe 20, depending on what your characters can realistically do).

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-09, 02:05 PM
of the two options, the latter is better. coup-de-grace style need to finish them off is much more cinematic. Note; this does make them significantly more durable than a minion.

For lulz, I'd suggest throwing both this type AND lots of minion into the encounters. So you have plenty of gibbing and wading, but the less decrepid sort take a lot more to put out of commission.

Tyger
2010-04-09, 02:05 PM
Considering the level that zombies can start appearing at, yes, this makes them very, very challenging. Criticals are only one in twenty. CdGing is all well and good, but when there are a dozen of these things around, you don't have time to pull that off. Which means that you have to roll a natural twenty to kill them... one in twenty swings results in a kill. Conversely, the zombies are hitting about 50% of the time, and they kill you much, much faster.

With no mechanism to do a head shot, its just not quite right. And deadly.

So if you want to really challenge your PCs, this is interesting. Likely a TPK waiting to happen, but interesting nonetheless. You'll definitely create an air of "Zombies!!! Run back to fight the dragon man!!!" :smallbiggrin:

Snowstorm
2010-04-09, 03:19 PM
Most zombies that I've seen actually have a caveat - if you critical them, they either die or take an extra heaping help of damage.

For minions, the way I've played them before, is that they'll 'die' to all of the standard forms of damage, but unless you took the time to completely dismember one or killed it with radiant / fire, it got up again a turn later.

Yakk
2010-04-10, 07:23 PM
A: They die only on a critical hit.
B: When hit with a normal hit, they go prone and helpless (save ends).

Note that helpless targets grant combat advantage and all hits on them are automatically critical hits.

Possibly add:
C: You score a critical hit on a 18+ on a zombie minion.

Optionally:
D: When hit by a normal hit, they fall prone. In addition, they are helpless (save ends), but get to save against that immediately.

D is more bookkeeping, but it makes killing large numbers of zombies quite difficult.

Quellian-dyrae
2010-04-10, 08:48 PM
I'd just not use the minions. If you incorporate rules like that, what you're basically doing is taking a template that is supposed to result in foes much easier than the norm, and causing it to create foes much harder than the norm. At that stage, you may as well just use the more powerful opponents.

Alternately, I have it on good authority that any problems in the area of zombie durability are best solved by adding more zombies.

SSGoW
2010-04-10, 09:08 PM
A: They die only on a critical hit.
B: When hit with a normal hit, they go prone and helpless (save ends).

Note that helpless targets grant combat advantage and all hits on them are automatically critical hits.

Possibly add:
C: You score a critical hit on a 18+ on a zombie minion.

Optionally:
D: When hit by a normal hit, they fall prone. In addition, they are helpless (save ends), but get to save against that immediately.

D is more bookkeeping, but it makes killing large numbers of zombies quite difficult.

+5 points, I love this idea and will be showing it to a few friends :)

TheOOB
2010-04-10, 09:47 PM
There is an old rule. Randomness always favors the NPCs, forcing players to roll a critical makes fighting zombies incredibly random. You can go a whole long combat and not see a single critical hit.

I defiantly approve of making them difficult or unique to defeat, but I don't think it should be based on random chance. I once had zombies that would raise at full hp in 1d4+1 rounds if they didn't take fire damage after being downed.

hewhosaysfish
2010-04-11, 06:15 AM
A: They die only on a critical hit.
B: When hit with a normal hit, they go prone and helpless (save ends).

Dead (save ends)?

I love it!

tcrudisi
2010-04-11, 10:33 AM
Note that helpless targets grant combat advantage and all hits on them are automatically critical hits.

Note that not all attacks against helpless targets are critical hits. To make it so, you have to use the coup de grace action, which is a standard action, and that lets you use an attack power as a critical hit against that foe. So if you have a minor action attack? It's not a crit unless you want to use it as a standard action instead. If you are a Barbarian with the Rampage ability? You coup de grace the helpless foe, triggering your free-on-a-critical rampage attack as a free action, but this is a normal attack, not also a critical.

Basically, review the coup de grace rules before implementing this idea.