Everquest and World of Warcraft d20

[liquid150]

Does anybody know much about these games? After completion of our current campaign, I expect I'll take the mantle of DM for several months until the current DM gets bored again and wants to take over. He's expressed a lot of interest in playing one of these two systems.

I am particularly interested in learning more about class balance in the systems, what is most powerful, what spells are most powerful, etc. I don't have any of the books right now, though.

Any information, sources, or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[tcrudisi]

Does anybody know much about these games? After completion of our current campaign, I expect I'll take the mantle of DM for several months until the current DM gets bored again and wants to take over. He's expressed a lot of interest in playing one of these two systems.

I am particularly interested in learning more about class balance in the systems, what is most powerful, what spells are most powerful, etc. I don't have any of the books right now, though.

Any information, sources, or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I own the core rulebooks for Everquest, but I never managed to convince my friends to play it. My estimation from my memory of reading the books a few years ago is that it would be more balanced than 3.5, but probably not as balanced as 4e.

[Starbuck_II]

Does anybody know much about these games? After completion of our current campaign, I expect I'll take the mantle of DM for several months until the current DM gets bored again and wants to take over. He's expressed a lot of interest in playing one of these two systems.

I am particularly interested in learning more about class balance in the systems, what is most powerful, what spells are most powerful, etc. I don't have any of the books right now, though.

Any information, sources, or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

WoW d20 is a pretty good book I thought. Balance is similar to 3.5 (magic rules), but non-magical healing items are possible (alchemy).

Drawback, alchemy creating requires feats (but it was fun playing a gnome tinker alchemist).
Been a while since played.

[Quincunx]

I tried reading through the EQd20 core book. The hybridization of the systems hurt my brain. (At the time, I didn't know enough about d20 to pick out broken items, nor to tell if spells which were broken for their level in EQ translated to broken gameplay.) I still have access to the Luclin splatbook, and Forest of Faydark which is much more lore than rules.

[Dust]

I think you should avoid the Warcraft d20 game like a plague.
You'd have just as much success running standard 3.5 with slightly different flavor than you would the official Warcraft game since the differences are incredibly minor.
You can get the Manual of Monsters if you want stats for a half-dozen canon villains (Most of which are above CR30, and The Lich King sits at CR50). Otherwise, all it'll tell you is how standard 3.5 MM creatures fit into the gameworld and give you stats for critters and a SMALL handful of quasi-useful creatures like Plainstriders.

I'll post some depressing snippets from the gamebook (when I get home) if this doesn't seem to deter you.

[liquid150]

I think you should avoid the Warcraft d20 game like a plague.
You'd have just as much success running standard 3.5 with slightly different flavor than you would the official Warcraft game since the differences are incredibly minor.
You can get the Manual of Monsters if you want stats for a half-dozen canon villains (Most of which are above CR30, and The Lich King sits at CR50). Otherwise, all it'll tell you is how standard 3.5 MM creatures fit into the gameworld and give you stats for critters and a SMALL handful of quasi-useful creatures like Plainstriders.

I'll post some depressing snippets from the gamebook (when I get home) if this doesn't seem to deter you.

Luckily I have some time with which to convince the other guy to just play 3.5 and stop trying to switch games (nobody else wants to change).

[Yora]

The system isn't really that much different from standard D&D. Mages, Necromancers, and Warlocks are all Wizards with slightly different spell lists. Druids, Priests, and Shamans are the same on a cleric chasis, while the Druid is really not much different fluff-wise from the SRD version. Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues are exactly the same.
Just remove Bards, Monks, and Sorcerers from the list of PC-classes and you're fine.

Some races are very different while others are very much the same. Orcs could use a homebrew rewrite and you'd have to make up stats for trolls, but that's about it.

Everything else the book has is spells from the games, like inner fire and death coil. They are nice for making the game feel a lot like warcraft, but are probably not really needed. If you happen to get your hands on the core rulebook, you could also just add the spells to the SRD classes spell lists, and you'd be good to go.

Warcraft RPG is really much more of a Setting Book for D&D and not actually a different system.

[liquid150]

Thanks for all the responses. What about Everquest? Is it an entirely "different" system, or just a layer tacked on to the D&D model?

I think the guy that wants to play them is highly concerned with powerful PC's. They, quite frankly, scare him. He has been fairly unable to make the game challenging lately. This, I believe, stems more from his insistence on running long-term, published campaign adventures instead of making his own encounters.

[Yora]

This certainly will have something to do with it.
Players who start to get a better understanding of the classes and abilities can get much more out of them even without any extra books. With them, the standard core game is even easier.
If the players have no problems defeating a group of enemies, you check why the monsters didn't stand a chance and the next time you show up with creatures on which the same weakness can't be exploited.
But just assuming that the core books have all the numbers straight and you get the desired results if you keep to appropritate Challenge Ratings won't bring you much of success.

[Hurlbut]

you'd have to make up stats for trolls, but that's about it.
Why? The Darkspear trolls use the Jungle Troll stats.

[Yora]

Yes, if you have the Warcraft RPG rule books. But when you homebrew trolls, you can play a game set in Azeroth with only the standard D&D core rules.

[Hurlbut]

Yes, if you have the Warcraft RPG rule books. But when you homebrew trolls, you can play a game set in Azeroth with only the standard D&D core rules.Um, my understanding is that the jungle troll, if taken as is, can be used in a D&D game with no problem providing you follow its level adjustement properly.

[The Glyphstone]

Um, my understanding is that the jungle troll, if taken as is, can be used in a D&D game with no problem providing you follow its level adjustement properly.

His point is that by homebrewing, you aleviate any need for the warcraft book at all.

[Hurlbut]

why homebrew monsters (like the trolls which is a different beast from your classic troll) when you can just take their stats from that book? :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

why homebrew monsters (like the trolls which is a different beast from your classic troll) when you can just take their stats from that book? :smallbiggrin:

If, say, he doesn't own the book, doesn't want to buy the book, and would rather not pirate the book? Some people do think like that.

[Hurlbut]

If, say, he doesn't own the book, doesn't want to buy the book, and would rather not pirate the book? Some people do think like that.Putting together a monster isn't easy though, so best of luck to him.

[Dust]

But on the flip side, actually getting the WoW d20 books woun't really make his life any easier than if he just used the standard 3.5 monsters. Sure there's a few nice additions, but it's mostly just copy-paste (http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4370/wowd20.jpg). Since the books are mostly reflavoring anyway, a little more wouldn't hardly even be noticable.

And let's be honest, is an Abomination REALLY so hard you can't modify something that currently exists?

Homebrewing, in this particular case, wouldn't take long at all.

[Yora]

And it's easy.

Jungle Troll
+2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence.
Darkvision 60 ft.
+2 racial bonus to Survival and Move Silently
Gains double amount of hp from natural healing

Done.

[Salt_Crow]

Umm, if my memory serves me correctly, in WoWd20, the mechanics of Mage/Necromancer/Warlock ("the Arcanist") differ quite a lot from that of wizards and sorcerers in 3.5 in how they prepare and cast spells (more like hybrid of a sorcerer and a wizard) and class abilities that are not actually limited to bonus feats.

Also, the divine spellcasters have different class features, with druid's Wildshape ability having a defined set of animals she can turn into, rather than anything that fits the criteria.

The various supplements of WoWd20 provide a range of alternate class features, some of which are outright broken (trading AC for full BAB progression for a druid, for example), while others are quite decent and flavorful.

Just be careful not to mix up the old Warcraft d20 system and the newer (still out of print though) WoW d20.

[Hurlbut]

And it's easy.

Jungle Troll
+2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence.
Darkvision 60 ft.
+2 racial bonus to Survival and Move Silently
Gains double amount of hp from natural healing

Done.Yeah well, the jungle troll's a LA +1 race, and compared its stats to yours, I actually prefer the WoW D20 one. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

So you don't like his homebrewed LA +0 Jungle troll. What does that have to do with the fact that it only took him a couple minutes to make it, which definitely qualifies as 'easy' while still being a good reflection of the WoW race?

[GolemsVoice]

I actually think WoW d20 is a very good book. While the old Warcraft RPG was D&D rules +contents of the books, the new WoW books are entirely a matter of their own, and, contrary to what others said, bring many new things to the game. Sure, most spells can be homebrewed, and you can probably come up with a few new prestige classes by yourself.

But the books offer new prestige classes, technology and technolgic devices, alchemy, racial levels for almost every race that exists in the World of Warcraft (and here, I'm really talking about the world, not just the MMORPG), as well as an in-depth look at the world and the important factions. Sure, you could homebrew all that, but if you are that creative, and want to invest that amount of time, why bother buying ANY RPG?

[Hurlbut]

So you don't like his homebrewed LA +0 Jungle troll. What does that have to do with the fact that it only took him a couple minutes to make it, which definitely qualifies as 'easy' while still being a good reflection of the WoW race?

Because it's not a good representative of the jungle troll? (The Witch Doctor laugh at the pitiful weak stats, mon!) :smallcool:

[Dust]

Umm, if my memory serves me correctly, in WoWd20, the mechanics of Mage/Necromancer/Warlock ("the Arcanist") differ quite a lot from that of wizards and sorcerers in 3.5 in how they prepare and cast spells (more like hybrid of a sorcerer and a wizard) and class abilities that are not actually limited to bonus feats.

Also, the divine spellcasters have different class features, with druid's Wildshape ability having a defined set of animals she can turn into, rather than anything that fits the criteria.
The Arcanist is a Wizard, who has 'Arcana' in addition to their bonus feats. All the Arcana is are a set of pre-existing special abilities/feats like Summon Familiar for the Mage that still don't make sense in the context of WoW. They tried - for example, the Warlock has a bunch of Augement Summoning-esque feats - but it's still not worth your time to buy the books.

The Divine Spellcaster part is correct, except I still feel like these restrictions are nothing more than elaborated houserules. For example, you mention the Druid's wildshape being a variety of different animals. This is true - they're a birds at 4th level, a cat at 8th, a dire bear at 11, and a tree at 15th. Meh.


But the books offer new prestige classes, technology and technolgic devices, alchemy, racial levels for almost every race that exists in the World of Warcraft (and here, I'm really talking about the world, not just the MMORPG), as well as an in-depth look at the world and the important factions. Sure, you could homebrew all that, but if you are that creative, and want to invest that amount of time, why bother buying ANY RPG?
Because the new features aren't unique to World of Warcraft, whether the MMO or the niverse. They're just old prestige classes with new fluff and the same crunch. 'Archmage' is now 'Archmage of the Kirin Tor.' Assassin is 'Assassin.' If you're looking for something quasi-original, you get the 'Mounted Warrior' which is the most uninspired, lackluster PrC I think I've ever seen.
The technology section would have been awesome had it not been ripped out of one of the old DnD Steampunk setting books.

There's just nothing here that you couldn't cobble together in a few hours on your own.

[Yora]

I actually think WoW d20 is a very good book. While the old Warcraft RPG was D&D rules +contents of the books, the new WoW books are entirely a matter of their own, and, contrary to what others said, bring many new things to the game. Sure, most spells can be homebrewed, and you can probably come up with a few new prestige classes by yourself.
I don't actually advice against getting the book. Actually, it's really great and if you can get your hands on it for a reasonable price, I'd go for it.
But it's not strictly needed to play a Warcraft campaign.
And if the players actually prefer to use the PHB classes and races, there's no reason not to do that.

[Zherog]

Yeah well, the jungle troll's a LA +1 race, and compared its stats to yours, I actually prefer the WoW D20 one. :smalltongue:

Been a long while since I looked at it, but as I recall the WoW d20 book didn't use level adjustment. Instead, it provided optional racial progression levels.

Also, I seem to remember mages being much more "spontaneous" than a standard wizard.

[Hurlbut]

Been a long while since I looked at it, but as I recall the WoW d20 book didn't use level adjustment. Instead, it provided optional racial progression levels.

Also, I seem to remember mages being much more "spontaneous" than a standard wizard.Yeah, got Warcraft and WoW RPG books mixed up.

[Indon]

His point is that by homebrewing, you aleviate any need for the warcraft book at all.

There are two big things the WoW D20 book does that the stock 3.5 rules don't.

1.The WoW D20 book nerfs spellcasters. Azeroth spellcasting is blasty and not too utility-heavy, which does a lot to balance classes vs. standard 3.5.

2.The last chapter of the book details a system for tracking communities and defining their stats and behavior, which is awesome for interjecting a bit of Warcraft's RTS nature into a game.


One nifty additional thing:

3.Racial progressions, Savage Species-style but actually useful, and entirely optional.

Oh, wait!

4.Tinkering, a sweet mechanics system for designing and operating Steampunk-style technological items.

5.Runecasting and runeshaping, a nifty spellcasting-like system with some sweet flavor to it. But you need to get one of the other books for that.


Something to watch out for is that there are two 3.x WoW RPG games. One is the Warcraft RPG and is 3.0 based. The other is "World of Warcraft" and is the 3.5-based game to which I am referring (Trolls are LA 0 in the 3.5 one, but have a 3-level racial progression, FYI).

[The Glyphstone]

Because it's not a good representative of the jungle troll? (The Witch Doctor laugh at the pitiful weak stats, mon!) :smallcool:

At LA +0, it's an excellent representation of the jungle troll. A LA +1 version would be more powerful, but if he wants a weaker version, then he can't use the existing version.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Soon, I shall purchase WoW d20, and the Tauren's epicness shall be mine

[Zherog]

At LA +0, it's an excellent representation of the jungle troll. A LA +1 version would be more powerful, but if he wants a weaker version, then he can't use the existing version.

More to the point, LA doesn't exist in the WoW d20 book; they instead designed racial levels a player can take, which sort of mimic LA in exchange for more stuff but is entirely optional. It's one of the features I like quite a bit, actually.

[Hurlbut]

More to the point, LA doesn't exist in the WoW d20 book; they instead designed racial levels a player can take, which sort of mimic LA in exchange for more stuff but is entirely optional. It's one of the features I like quite a bit, actually.And the other option is simply buying off the LA :smalltongue:


At LA +0, it's an excellent representation of the jungle troll. A LA +1 version would be more powerful, but if he wants a weaker version, then he can't use the existing version. that LA +0 version in this thread? it's still not an excellent representation of the jungle troll.

[Zherog]

Assuming you allow variant rules from Unearthed Arcana into your game, sure. But not everybody does.

[Hurlbut]

Assuming you allow variant rules from Unearthed Arcana into your game, sure. But not everybody does.And it's still an assumption whenever you allow the Warcraft RPG, WoW D20, or homebrewed rules into your game. :smalltongue:

[Zherog]

Unless you're actually, you know, playing Warcraft or WoW d20 as the entire game.

[GolemsVoice]

It could be argued that you don'te need the CORE book, the actual WoW d20 book. If you insist on this, yes, you're still "only" missing out on the Tinker, technology (no matter if it was ripped or not, you still need to get either the book(s) you claim it's been ripped from, OR the WoW d20 book), their ideas of the various racial levels, and some variant rules. I could see someone going without this, though I personally would think it a bit pointless.

Where the fun REALLY starts, and where all the new Prestige Classes and the stuff I mentioned comes into play are the splatbooks. The Faction Compendiums, More Magic&Mayhem, etc. Really good stuff in there, too.