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View Full Version : [3.5] Using timers to expedite play



Deter
2010-04-10, 04:37 PM
So our group has been together for a while now and we still take a looong time to complete large battles. Some of this is from 3.5 crunchiness, but I believe most of it come from distracted players(specifically a 10 y.o. and a13 y.o.). I'm not the DM, but I wanted to suggest using a little plastic hourglass for each player during combat to speed things up.

Any opinions on using timers for DnD in general? On how long each turn should take? On penalties for going over time limit? On any other aspect I haven't thought of yet?

Gorbash
2010-04-10, 04:43 PM
It's a bad idea. D&D should be a relaxed game with friends and nobody should be penalized or forced to miss their turn just because they can't think of what to do spot on. I tried using it, but my players didn't like it, so I dropped the idea.

Just tell players that they should think of what to do while other people play.

Yora
2010-04-10, 04:47 PM
As a gm, I would just tell the players to hurry up and decide what they want to do on their turn. Sometimes you want to try something interesting but different, and it might just take some time. But in my experience, the real problem is when players take hours to decide what action they want to take, and when they start to look up spells but then decide that they want to do something different, that's just too much. There's nothing wrong when you have to ask if an ability really works like you think it works before taking it, but I hate it when players just can't decide what they want to do.
If it takes too long, I'd say they either say what action they take now or make a standard attack, or they are skipped and the next player gets his turn.

But I wouldn't actually put a hard time limit, that's allways just too restrictive and makes it less enjoyable for everyone.

snoopy13a
2010-04-10, 04:47 PM
I suppose you could try a 10-20 timer for making decisions. Remember, the character only has 6 seconds in-game to decide.

However, you run the risk of alienating your players. Additionally, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you force your players to speed up then you cannot take your time planning out the NPC's actions.

shadow_archmagi
2010-04-10, 04:48 PM
To be quite honest, if you have players who are constantly distracted and not-playing, then forcing them to pay attention or not play will just result in them not playing.

At that point you have a problem.

Totally Guy
2010-04-10, 04:59 PM
As a player I like to set up situations where I end up with a difficult decision to make within battles. Then we get there and I get to do my melodramatic inner monologue of "Do I take action A and risk situation X or do I take action B to help get to situation Y?".

A good battle is one where I can explain a difficult choice so that everyone can see who I am playing through the decision.

To me a timer would eliminate my primary source of enjoyment from the conflict. I'd have no incentive to try to manipulate the situation to one where I'm making an important choice.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-10, 05:11 PM
I give my players a 10 - 15 second mental count (longer if they're first in initiative) before I tell them to move it along. If they can't give me something in the next 10 seconds or so, I consider it a held action, and if they come up with something they can take their turn further down the initiative order. And if you have a book open when I get to you, that's a held action right there. I heavily encourage all my players to keep notes about what their spells and feats do, and discourage books at the table.

Edit: As far as players who want a long time to make up their minds how they should best utilize their actions, my philosophy is: battles don't give much time to think, and that 6 seconds is gone before you know it.

Thrawn183
2010-04-10, 05:13 PM
Eh, I don't mind when the mechanics themselves take a while (a full round attack from a high level character and his mount as an example), the problem is when the player can't make up their mind. Sooooo annoying.

Deter
2010-04-10, 05:18 PM
The impression I'm getting is that a timer would create new headaches rather than curing the problem. How do you, as a DM, expedite play otherwise?

It'll be my turn to DM at some point. I'd like to curtail this distraction problem and speed up play without alienating my niece and nephew (the 10 y.o. and 12 y.o.).

Sincerely,

"Don't wanna be the big bad uncle"

tahu88810
2010-04-10, 05:21 PM
Seems like if they aren't paying attention or really playing the game, they don't really want to play anyways.
I'm going to suggest you handle it the same way my group has handled such players: Stop playing with them.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-10, 05:27 PM
Seems like if they aren't paying attention or really playing the game, they don't really want to play anyways.
I'm going to suggest you handle it the same way my group has handled such players: Stop playing with them.

Some people, especially little kids, are just easily distracted. It's not that they don't want to play, they just can't help it sometimes. How I would handle situations like that is to gently get their attention, or better yet have the more experienced gamer sitting next to them do it, and try not to break the flow of the game.

AslanCross
2010-04-10, 05:32 PM
The impression I'm getting is that a timer would create new headaches rather than curing the problem. How do you, as a DM, expedite play otherwise?

It'll be my turn to DM at some point. I'd like to curtail this distraction problem and speed up play without alienating my niece and nephew (the 10 y.o. and 12 y.o.).

Sincerely,

"Don't wanna be the big bad uncle"

I've tried timers before. While it makes my players (who are about 16-19) speed up their turns for a while, it gets to points where if I force them to pass their turns, the encounter turns really nasty. I instead lead by example, showing how quickly i can resolve my monsters' turns. Even resolving a full attack from a monster with TWF takes 2 minutes, tops.

Even grappling monsters are pretty quick now.



Seems like if they aren't paying attention or really playing the game, they don't really want to play anyways.
I'm going to suggest you handle it the same way my group has handled such players: Stop playing with them.

He did say the players were rather young. In this day and age of flashy media, it might be better to tell the players to stop watching attention span-killing garbage instead. <_<

snoopy13a
2010-04-10, 05:43 PM
It'll be my turn to DM at some point. I'd like to curtail this distraction problem and speed up play without alienating my niece and nephew (the 10 y.o. and 12 y.o.).



Hmm, do the 10 year old and 12 year old really want to play or are they encouraged to do so by older relatives?

Maybe the problem is they'd rather be doing other things than playing a RPG?

Optimystik
2010-04-10, 05:45 PM
For combat or skill challenges I could see it heightening tension. But it wouldn't be as desirable for slower-paced play.

I'd give more than 6 seconds though. A seasoned adventurer can accomplish world-changing tasks round-to-round, but the person playing him might need more time to think things through.

Deter
2010-04-10, 06:07 PM
Maybe the problem is they'd rather be doing other things than playing a RPG? Today 02:32 PM

I wish it were that easy! Banning the kids would only produce sulkiness, tears, and possible dirty looks from my sis-in-law.

The more I think about this problem, the closer I come to the conclusion that it could be a matter of overall time played. We went for 4+ hours (with several breaks) last time. Perhaps limiting game night to about 3 hours with breaks would do the trick.


n this day and age of flashy media, it might be better to tell the players to stop watching attention span-killing garbage instead.

Amen brother/sister! I didn't want to sound like an old fogy, but I believe that's at the heart of this.

Yukitsu
2010-04-10, 06:26 PM
I love it when my DM impliments that. I usually write out my entire set of actions from round 1-6 and just hand it to the DM, and roll dice when it comes up.

The way he has it set up, I get extra rounds, because both he and the rest of the players usually take longer than the timer. :smalltongue:

Saph
2010-04-10, 06:34 PM
But in my experience, the real problem is when players take hours to decide what action they want to take, and when they start to look up spells but then decide that they want to do something different, that's just too much. There's nothing wrong when you have to ask if an ability really works like you think it works before taking it, but I hate it when players just can't decide what they want to do.

This. The problem is players who just can't grasp the idea of doing things quickly.

One of the players in my current group is like this.

Player: "I cast Fly. That'll last 60 minutes."
DM: "It actually only lasts six."
Player: "No it doesn't, it lasts ten minutes a level."
DM: "It was changed in 3.5."
Player: *picks up PHB*
Player: *starts flipping through*
DM: "..."
Player: *continues flipping through*
DM: "What are you doing?"
Player: "I'm looking it up."
DM: "I just told you the rule. Look it up on your own damn time, now are you going to take your action or not?"
Player: "Okay, I'll just cast Magic Missile then. Is that thing in range?"
DM: "What's the range on your spell?"
Player: "Um, I dunno." *picks up PHB again and starts flipping through*
Other players: :smallfurious:

Apollo1776
2010-04-10, 06:52 PM
It is a terrible idea. Don't force people to conform to business like gaming. It ruins all of the fun.

Also, why would it take them so long to go? Are they metagaming, because really they should try to avoid that. Getting distracted and making jokes happens often in talking, but in battles mmm, it happens less. If the players don't want to kill things then they have problems. And if you have a problem with how long it is taking other people maybe you should get some patience, or roll a better init.

When it isn't your turn plan what you're going to do when it is your turn. Look up spells you don't quite know and otherwise. My turns don't last too long because I know what I'm going to do when it gets me (as a paladin usually it is just smash the living snot out of it - but only if it is evil).

Oh, and the whole, "a round is only 6 seconds," argument is completely fallible. In a real scenario, supposing you're your character you think on the fly. You don't need to calculate how far someone away from you is and how much damage your sword does or what that spell does exactly (your character already knows the spell completely, there is this thing where wizards prepare spells). Don't time turns, it is stupid.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-10, 11:20 PM
It is a terrible idea. Don't force people to conform to business like gaming. It ruins all of the fun.

Also, why would it take them so long to go? Are they metagaming, because really they should try to avoid that. Getting distracted and making jokes happens often in talking, but in battles mmm, it happens less. If the players don't want to kill things then they have problems. And if you have a problem with how long it is taking other people maybe you should get some patience, or roll a better init.

When it isn't your turn plan what you're going to do when it is your turn. Look up spells you don't quite know and otherwise. My turns don't last too long because I know what I'm going to do when it gets me (as a paladin usually it is just smash the living snot out of it - but only if it is evil).

Oh, and the whole, "a round is only 6 seconds," argument is completely fallible. In a real scenario, supposing you're your character you think on the fly. You don't need to calculate how far someone away from you is and how much damage your sword does or what that spell does exactly (your character already knows the spell completely, there is this thing where wizards prepare spells). Don't time turns, it is stupid.

I invite you to sit in with one of my groups. Once, at their worst, 6 rounds of combat took upwards of 2 hours. Sitting doing nothing for 20 min until your turn comes up again... that ruins fun. This is an extreme case, and if your battles go quickly without a hitch, then good for you. Overlong combats is a real, and surprisingly widespread, problem.
Timing combats isn't meant to restrict your players, it's meant to curtail time wasting i.e. players who take 5 min to strategize their actions, or need to consult half a dozen rule books.

It's not necessarily for all groups. It's just a tool DMs can use. If a group likes 2 hour battles, great; if not, it's the DMs job to shorten them to keep the game fun.

Thurbane
2010-04-11, 12:04 AM
Timers is something my regular group has often contemplated...in our last campaign, we were a group of 5 13th level characters, and we were only getting through one (occasionally two) combat per session (our weekly sessions average 3 to 5 hours).

We are currently playing (with me as DM) 6 6th level characters, and combat is running much faster.

High level play + casters = slow combat, at least for my group.

...players can do a lot to minimize this - you should always have your turn planned before it gets to you in the initiative, especially if you are a caster. There may always be something unforeseen that ruins your plans, but try as much as possible to have an idea in your head of what you're going to do next.

Also, try to keep rules haggling to a minimum - even experienced groups regularly run into rules issues in 3.5, so try to keep the page flipping and arguing to a minimum. Let each side (DM and players) put forth their arguments, quickly check reference material, and if an impasse is reached, defer to the DM. A good DM will try to be flexible, and if something is a recurring issue, study it between sessions. I can't tell you about the huge chunks of sessions we've lost to haggling over how a rule is interpreted...I find myself as guilty as others, so I always try to remind myself that if it's dragging on too long, defer to the DM, and then ask him (and yourself) to study the ruling before the next session.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-11, 12:23 AM
If players are getting out of hand typicaly the next session we play gets what i call the 5 second rule.

If you don't start declaring what you want to do with in 5 seconds you full defense for the round. ( though you can make aoo's)

Though some complexe actions take longer then 5 seconds its more of a be ready to go by your turn or your gonna be sitting there. Some times if large events that dramaticaly change combat(more adversaries, every ones in different spots do to a spell, the terrain shifts dramaticaly) then it extends to 10 seconds. Most my players move though when we do it. I got my group trained now that i just hold up my hand and start lowering fingers and they take there action.

There is nothing wrong with speeding up play. It realy depends on how casusal you are. We come to game to game and hang out with people before or after but when its game time its mother ****in game time.

JGoldenberg
2010-04-11, 02:22 AM
I myself have put up with this for a little while the newer players get the hang of it. We're ending a campaign early (It was a rather generic Campaign to give them something to do while I worked on the one everyone wants to play.) and when we play the new campaign after our break between campaigns with dungeon crawlers and others trying their hand at DMing adventures, I will be adding a new house rule that I think is reasonable.

People have to know what class they're playing, what spells they're using, what their weapons details are, if a Wizard needs details such as range and such, they're to type up notes on their spells in their free time. Half of them have the Pathfinder Core Rulebooks, and I freely provide the link to the PFSRD on D20PFSRD.com or even the official Paizo.com one to them plenty of times for them to not have the excuse of ignorance.
But none of this flipping through books constantly, I'm going to tell most of them to leave their books in their bags, with only my copy out for obscure rule reference when and if it ever comes up. I don't see why even Divine Magic users can't make lists of the spells they can use, or at least the spells they rely on. I've almost never seen any cleric in my group deviate from the same five or six spells each level.

I'm currently weaning them off having me premake half of their characters and a few of them are not happy with being made to do their own characters. It's like babysitting children it seems, DMing, even when half your group is old enough to drive.

Thurbane
2010-04-11, 04:13 AM
If it's any consolation, no one in my group is under 30, and we still constantly fumble around for rulebooks mid-combat! :smalltongue:

JGoldenberg
2010-04-11, 10:35 AM
If it's any consolation, no one in my group is under 30, and we still constantly fumble around for rulebooks mid-combat! :smalltongue:

Heh I must admit I've got a rule lawyer in my group that always has me have to keep my own book on the Combat Chapter. Luckily for me I homebrew every monster I put in, so he can't complain about the fact he got his ass handed to him by a goblin.

But some of them are still floundering on what anything on their character sheets mean, perhaps I've been holding their hands too much, ah well that should fix with this new rule.

Mulletmanalive
2010-04-11, 10:45 AM
I've actually used this before and found that it worked pretty well. The difference was that it wasn't turn time but decision time that i restricted.

We had two players who would ignore the table until it was their turn and then spend upwards of 5 minutes fannying about before making a decision. I limited them to a 30 second thinking time, at which point they were obliged to decide on something, usually meaning that they made a snap decision.

If they didn't come up with something, they got a Total Defence and a 5ft step.

Within 2 incidences, they'd started paying attention in other player's turns and one of them started making actually more intelligent decisions instead of interrogating us for ages and then doing something that made no sense [like killing the crippled thing he knew would explode, killing another PC and getting him smacked around by the player in question]

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-11, 10:51 AM
I have a 5-10 second timer, but it's not enforced very harshly. I just use it discourage people from thinking too long and dragging battles out.

elonin
2010-04-11, 10:55 AM
The middle ground seems better to me on this one. I've played with a few groups and I think the game moves along better with minis on a square grid system. A group I played with used plastic interlocking square tiles that were dry erase marker friendly. That plus different wire parts for AOE spells made it easy to visualize what the effect would look like. And the minis also put a context to everyone's position. For spells I've been saved a number of times by downloading/printing spell pages or you could just write down the basic facts of your spells. Then if there is a drag on time it's likely to come from different interpretations of the rules. A good dm will consult with his/her players about sticky rules questions but does have rule 0 on their side.

I'd also give younger people with shorter attention spans a bit of a break here.

Seatbelt
2010-04-11, 11:01 AM
I had that problem too. I have two plush 6-sided dice that I would bring to games. One was for me to play with. The other was for my party. One person takes their turn and the next player holds the dice. The person with the dice is "on deck" and knows they have to pay attention. After two or three sessions they didn't need t he dice anymore.