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Paulus
2010-04-10, 10:46 PM
Well, my desire for melee can no longer be ignored. I've danced with the spell casters and dex'd around the battle field, I've even built yon leap attacker here and there. But... it is not enough! I want melee and my little group is sticking to 3.0 for melee (One guy has a forsaker for crying out loud!) and I'm just tired of the casting caster casting casterly castards! When it comes to magic I enjoy me bard, and my Invocation engineers, but there comes a time when I just want to hit the stupid thing with a sword, and not die! So after looking longingly at my maxed con/str/insane amounts of hp fighter I have collecting dust... I took the plunge and jumped into Tome of Battle... ugh, chewing through it and trying not to feel like I've betrayed gygax somehow (song cue: I always feel like, somebodies watchin' meeeee- and I got no privacy!)

I began my earnest effort to make a Fighter/Warblade hybrid.
The concept. Average joe human in half-plate (specifically) who carries a sword as big as he is (Fullblade) your strong silent type who doesn't do the whole 'skills' thing, he is a tank, pure and simple, hardcore stats overwhelming 'he-just-won't-die' kind of guy.


Level 16 character. 32 point buy. His stat array is:
Str:15
Con:18
Dex:10
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:10

These are his feat selections as a pure fighter.

1: ABLE LEARNER [RACIAL] Level 1 Human Bonus
Spot, Listen, and such are either CC or too low stat wise. I enjoy the buffer AB gives you to spend what you want where you want. It's just good economy.
1: ENDURANCE [GENERAL] Level 1, eh, preeq.
1: IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL] Level 1 Fighter Bonus. Prereq.
2: VERSATILE UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL] Level 2 Fighter Bonus. Never need an extra weapon again! yay!
3: STEADFAST DETERMINATION [GENERAL] Level 3rdth, Hooray will saves!
4: EXOTIC WEAPON PROFICIENCY (Fullblade) [GENERAL] Level 4 Fighter Bonus
Sometimes a sword is just a sword, and sometimes its a really big sword.
6: IRON WILL [GENERAL] Level 6th, yay will saves and prereq!
6: POWER ATTACK [GENERAL] Level 6th fighter bonus feat, duh.
12: INDOMITABLE SOUL [GENERAL] Level 12th, yay will saves!
15: LEAP ATTACK [GENERAL] Level 15th, OH GOD IT'S JUMPING AT ME!

IMPROVED TOUGHNESS [GENERAL] Level 9th, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 Fighter Bonus,
HP INSANITY!

So. By this build you can pretty much see where I'm going. I'd like to keep this same little package, only make it more... I dunno... survivable, so when should I start kicking into Warblade, and what maneuvers/stances/feats should I look into? I can already tell you I'm leaning toward Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and Stone Dragon personally but I'd rather hear from people who have actually playtested this sort of thing.

Now I'm not necessarily asking for optimization, I'd like to stick to fighter/warblade, but you can feel free to post optimized builds if you like and I'll look em over. I would just generally like to know what you like about the class and why everybody keeps endlessly swearing by it. I could even go toward pure fighter with maneuvers. But I kind of like the idea of a Fighter/Warblade hybrid. Kind of the, first meets last, say in pure melee.

So, what do you think Playgrounders? :smallsmile:

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-10, 11:21 PM
Stone dragon and the X bones series of maneuvers are very tank. Also, Crusader is more tank than warblade from a purely mechanical point of view. Just something to think about.

Also, can you take improved toughness more than once?

Temotei
2010-04-10, 11:27 PM
Also, can you take improved toughness more than once?

I thought you couldn't, but I looked it up in Complete Warrior. It doesn't say anything against taking it more than once. I actually had posted, but it amounted to "Never mind."

Milskidasith
2010-04-10, 11:29 PM
I thought you couldn't, but I looked it up in Complete Warrior. It doesn't say anything against taking it more than once. I actually had posted, but it amounted to "Never mind."

If a feat doesn't specifically say you can take it more than once, you can't, if I recall correctly. Looking it up now.

EDIT:


Benefit
What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.

So you can take it more than once, by RAW, it just doesn't do anything. That makes a lot of sense, Wizards, really. :smallannoyed:

Paulus
2010-04-10, 11:31 PM
Stone dragon and the X bones series of maneuvers are very tank. Also, Crusader is more tank than warblade from a purely mechanical point of view. Just something to think about.

Also, can you take improved toughness more than once?

I like stone dragon simply because it seems to have a lot of hit hard in it, and it's geared to two handers. Haven't had that much Experience with it though so I'll wait and see.

Mmm so I heard, I've considered dipping crusader maneuvers for some healing, but will stick with warblade if any purely for flavor, at least for this character.

Also, you know... I'm not sure. I can't remember anymore if my DM just allowed it offhand or not but then again there is no doubt some debate I missed that says for certain, almost like trying to figure out if Con scores increase/hp gain are retroactive, in which case treat them as placeholders. Far more interesting maneuvers to take anyway I'm sure.

EDIT: AH HA! Ninja'ed. But this makes sense, why else would my DM handwave without me remembering if not to give my fighter all the help he could get? As I recall, willsaves were more important than HP anyway. This reminds me, I should put in Scorpions Resolve too...

Milskidasith
2010-04-10, 11:33 PM
I like stone dragon simply because it seems to have a lot of hit hard in it, and it's geared to two handers. Haven't had that much Experience with it though so I'll wait and see.

Mmm so I heard, I've considered dipping crusader maneuvers for some healing, but will stick with warblade if any purely for flavor, at least for this character.

Also, you know... I'm not sure. I can't remember anymore if my DM just allowed it offhand or not but then again there is no doubt some debate I missed that says for certain, almost like trying to figure out if Con scores increase/hp gain are retroactive, in which case treat them as placeholders. Far more interesting maneuvers to take anyway I'm sure.

Con to HP is retroactive. Skill points aren't, which I find kind of dumb because it creates a sizable amount more work than normal for creating characters that increase their intelligence, and your skill points don't end up with the usual "X skills maxed out" array that makes things easier.

Claudius Maximus
2010-04-10, 11:33 PM
Con changes do affect HP retroactively.

But it looks like I was beat to the punch...

Milskidasith
2010-04-10, 11:34 PM
Con changes do affect HP retroactively.

But it looks like I was beat to the punch...

I beat you to the punch.

EDIT: And you beat me to the punch mentioning that... and used the same expression.

Weird.

Paulus
2010-04-10, 11:36 PM
Con to HP is retroactive. Skill points aren't, which I find kind of dumb because it creates a sizable amount more work than normal for creating characters that increase their intelligence, and your skill points don't end up with the usual "X skills maxed out" array that makes things easier.



Con changes do affect HP retroactively.

But it looks like I was beat to the punch...

Not to derail my own thread, but you guys wouldn't mind posting the source for that would you? I don't remember reading it myself. ...sooo many books...

Thanks by the way. Also, any suggestions for maneuvers and stances and other such things?

Milskidasith
2010-04-10, 11:38 PM
SRD quotage:


Constitution (Con)
Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is important for all classes.

You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).
Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability.
If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

Temotei
2010-04-10, 11:45 PM
So you can take it more than once, by RAW, it just doesn't do anything. That makes a lot of sense, Wizards, really. :smallannoyed:

Ah. That must be what I was thinking. :smallsigh:

Alleine
2010-04-11, 04:22 AM
There are some extra toughness feats in Masters of the Wild. They're like toughness only better, but not as good as improved toughness.

AslanCross
2010-04-11, 05:12 AM
What are you planning to take by getting Iron Will? I'd drop Iron Will and indomitable soul, instead maxing out Concentration (you have max Con anyway) and take Moment of Perfect Mind.

Paulus
2010-04-11, 05:28 PM
What are you planning to take by getting Iron Will? I'd drop Iron Will and indomitable soul, instead maxing out Concentration (you have max Con anyway) and take Moment of Perfect Mind.

Indeed. But I'm having trouble deciding between the three Con checks instead of saves and Iron heart endurance. In fact I'm have a lot of trouble narrowing down all the Maneuvers and which is better than the others. Not getting much input from this thread, so I'll assume you guys need to know exactly what I'm looking at to help me out. So Here are the maneuvers I'm looking at including their preqs and such for each school. As I understand, maneuvers you take later count for the prereqs and themselves. Meaning if you take 1 maneuver, and then another that requires 1 Maneuver prereq, and then a third that requires two, you can then get rid of the 1st maneuver as as long as you have the third maneuvers it counts towards the 2 maneuvers you need to keep it. Providing of course you had Maneuver 1 & 2 first. Right?

Also here is my selection needing much narrowing of down.

Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter 1):
Action Before Thought (Counter 2):
Mind Over Body (Counter 3):
Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance 3): 1 DM Maneuvers
Bounding Assault (Strike 4): 2 DM Maneuvers
Ruby Nightmare Blade (Strike 4): 2 DM Maneuvers
Diamond Nightmare Blade (Strike 8): 3 DM Maneuvers
Hearing the Air (Stance 5): 2 DM Maneuvers
Moment of Alacrity (Boost 6): 2 DM Maneuvers
Quicksilver Motion (Boost 7): 3 DM Maneuvers
Stance of Alacrity (Stance 8): 3 DM Maneuvers
Time Stands Still (Strike 9): 4 DM Maneuvers

Iron Heart:
Punishing Stance (Stance 1):
Wall of Blades (Counter 2):
Absolute Steel (Stance 3): 1 IH Maneuvers
Iron Heart Surge (Boost 3): 1 IH Maneuvers
Lightning Recovery (Counter 4): Reroll to hit. 2 IH Maneuvers
Iron Heart Focus (Counter 5): Re-roll a failed save. 2 IH Maneuvers
Iron Heart Endurance (Boost 6): Swift action healing. 2 IH Maneuvers
Finishing Move (Strike 7): 3 IH Maneuvers
Lightening Throw (Strike 8): 2 IH Maneuvers
Adamantine Hurricane (Strike 8): 3 IH maneuvers
Supreme Blade Parry (Stance 8): DR 5/-. 3 IR Maneuvers,
Strike of Perfect Clarity (Strike 9): 4 IH Maneuvers

Stone Dragon:
Mountain Hammer (Strike 2):
Elder Mountain Hammer (Strike 5): 2 SD Maneuvers
Irresistible Mountain Strike (Strike 6):
Ancient Mountain Hammer (Strike 7): 3 SD Maneuvers
Colossus Strike (Strike 7): 2 SD Maneuvers
Mountain Tombstone Strike (Strike 9):

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 05:34 PM
Why not just be a barb? They basically just eat damage and smash stuff. d12 HD and extra HP while raging, what more could you want (besides a special ability that allows you to use that masochism spell in battle).

Paulus
2010-04-11, 05:46 PM
Why not just be a barb? They basically just eat damage and smash stuff. d12 HD and extra HP while raging, what more could you want (besides a special ability that allows you to use that masochism spell in battle).

Thought about it, but I'd rather go full range with a barb. Doesn't fit the concept as well as Fighter/Warblade either. The point is to try and learn ToB since it seems to be the end all be all for melee... or so I've been lead to believe, though due to lack of response in this thread I'm actually beginning to wonder...

Keld Denar
2010-04-11, 05:54 PM
What exactly do you want? I reviewed this thread again and see some vague requests and stuff around, but nothing really concrete.

Do you want something like an exact level-by-level maneuver list? Thats kinda a big request, but I'm sure someone around here is bored enough. It would help if you specified an ECL you are aiming for, as some things are radically different at various level breaks.

Otherwise, take a stab at it yourself. Read through pretty much all of the manevuers you have access to, flag a few that seem neat, make sure you meet all the prereqs, and start slapping them down on paper. You can always change them around. Then post them here, and we'll offer critisism as to what are and arn't good choices and why. You'll learn MUCH more about the system doing that than if I just told you to take Diamond Nightmare Manevuer and call it a game.

Also, for clarity, are you talking about a Fighter//Warblade gestalt? Or a FighterX/WarbladeY character? Its not terribly clear, as you have a ton of feats listed, but no Warblade bonus feats...

Paulus
2010-04-11, 06:14 PM
EDIT SUPER!!

snip.

I talk to much. Okay here.
I was generally asking what maneuvers peoples liked the most and why.
What should everyone know? Like no one takes X stance because it is pure crap, and everyone should take Y stance because, and if you are two handed based definitely take X. Again, nothing all inclusive, just general opinions and information.

What I'm doing is a Lvl 16 character. Str 15. Con 18. Everythingelse: 10.
He is going pure Fullblade, hit point craziness, not a battle field control, AoO, tripper, sunder, or anything like that. Just hit the thing, and survive hitting the thing as they hit you. So basic it's laughable. Maneuvers should hit hard. Hit often. And help keep him alive defensively. That's it. Current list of Maneuvers/stances I'm narrowing-down-as-we-speak looking at below.


Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter 1):
Action Before Thought (Counter 2):
Mind Over Body (Counter 3):
Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance 3): 1 DM Maneuvers
Bounding Assault (Strike 4): 2 DM Maneuvers
Ruby Nightmare Blade (Strike 4): 2 DM Maneuvers
Diamond Nightmare Blade (Strike 8): 3DM Maneuvers
Hearing the Air (Stance 5): 2 DM Maneuvers
Moment of Alacrity (Boost 6): 2 DM Maneuvers
Quicksilver Motion (Boost 7): 3 DM Maneuvers
Stance of Alacrity (Stance 8): 3 DM Maneuvers
Time Stands Still (Strike 9): 4 DM Maneuvers

Iron Heart:
Punishing Stance (Stance 1):
Wall of Blades (Counter 2):
Iron Heart Surge (Boost 3): 1 IH Maneuvers
Lightning Recovery (Counter 4): Reroll to hit. 2 IH Maneuvers
Iron Heart Focus (Counter 5): Re-roll a failed save. 2 IH Maneuvers
Iron Heart Endurance (Boost 6): Swift action healing. 2 IH Maneuvers
Finishing Move (Strike 7): 3 IH Maneuvers
Lightening Throw (Strike 8): 2 IH Maneuvers
Adamantine Hurricane (Strike 8): 3 IH maneuvers
Strike of Perfect Clarity (Strike 9): 4 IH Maneuvers

Stone Dragon:
Mountain Hammer (Strike 2):
Elder Mountain Hammer (Strike 5): 2 SD Maneuvers
Irresistible Mountain Strike (Strike 6):
Ancient Mountain Hammer (Strike 7): 3 SD Maneuvers
Colossus Strike (Strike 7): 2 SD Maneuvers
Mountain Tombstone Strike (Strike 9):




Also, for clarity, are you talking about a Fighter//Warblade gestalt? Or a FighterX/WarbladeY character? Its not terribly clear, as you have a ton of feats listed, but no Warblade bonus feats...

Ah, the build I posted was an old Str/Con two handed leap attack charger fighter I made a while back. It was collecting dust because melee was so outclassed. So I was thinking of updating him by either Warblade multi-class, or fighter taking Mauvers, which ever is better. I want to keep some fighter levels but may just lessen it to Fighter 2/Warblade X depending.

Keld Denar
2010-04-11, 06:35 PM
I'd suggest going Warblade1/Fighter2/WarbladeX. This gets you the d12 HD as your first level (its maxed), and gives you more skill points to spend with the 4x multiplier. Fighter2 nets you 2 bonus feats, +1 IL, and also has the side effect of pushing your stance progression back slightly. As written, you get your 2nd warblade stance at 4th level, when you have an IL of 4. With the 2 fighter levels, your IL with be 5 when you hit Warblade4 and get your stance, allowing you to pick up a 3rd level stance like Absolute Steel or Pearl of Black Doubt.

Also, don't discount Tiger Claw, even for a 2handed weapon wielder. Many Tiger Claw manevuers have higher than average +xd6 bonuses. Thats really sexy on the level you get them, although it becomes less useful as time goes on. For example, Soaring Raptor Strike has the potential to deal +6d6 damage as a 3rd level manevuer, while Bonecrusher is only +4d6. TC also has some nice mobility options like Sudden Leap and Pouncing Charge, and getting extra attacks with a boost like Dancing Mongoose is good with a 2hander because it hits so much harder. In general though, strikes that do other stuff than straight +damage tend to out perform +xd6 manevuers. Compare Emerald Razor Strike to anything else in its level. Touch ACs tend to be much lower, especially at high levels. That means you can PA for MOAR damage than you'd average using a higher level strike.

So, for manevuers, assuming you start at 1st level and play through each level, take:

1st Warb1 IL1
Moment of Perfect Mind
Steel Wind
Saphire Nightmare Blade
Punishing Stance
4th Warb2/Fighter2 IL3
Mountain Hammer
5th Warb3/Fighter2 IL4
Emerald Razor
6th Warb4/Fighter2 IL5
swap Saphire Nightmare Blade for Ironheart Surge

etc

Paulus
2010-04-11, 06:53 PM
I'd suggest going Warblade1/Fighter2/WarbladeX. This gets you the d12 HD as your first level (its maxed), and gives you more skill points to spend with the 4x multiplier. Fighter2 nets you 2 bonus feats, +1 IL, and also has the side effect of pushing your stance progression back slightly. As written, you get your 2nd warblade stance at 4th level, when you have an IL of 4. With the 2 fighter levels, your IL with be 5 when you hit Warblade4 and get your stance, allowing you to pick up a 3rd level stance like Absolute Steel or Pearl of Black Doubt.

Noted and followed.



Also, don't discount Tiger Claw, even for a 2handed weapon wielder. Many Tiger Claw manevuers have higher than average +xd6 bonuses. Thats really sexy on the level you get them, although it becomes less useful as time goes on. For example, Soaring Raptor Strike has the potential to deal +6d6 damage as a 3rd level manevuer, while Bonecrusher is only +4d6. TC also has some nice mobility options like Sudden Leap and Pouncing Charge, and getting extra attacks with a boost like Dancing Mongoose is good with a 2hander because it hits so much harder. In general though, strikes that do other stuff than straight +damage tend to out perform +xd6 manevuers. Compare Emerald Razor Strike to anything else in its level. Touch ACs tend to be much lower, especially at high levels. That means you can PA for MOAR damage than you'd average using a higher level strike.

Well progression isn't as important for say making a high level character out of the box, but I do have to keep in mind prereqs and what not, battle filed mobility is an issue and one of the reasons I'm looking askance at Stone Dragon tech right now. I'll look into Sudden Leap and Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose, as well.

As for my own list, I've updated it with questions and reasons if you or anyone else would like to take a look. and shoot them down brutally, I trust your judgments completely.


Diamond Mind:

Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter 1): Definite.
Action Before Thought (Counter 2): Is this really necessary?
Mind Over Body (Counter 3): Con instead of fort save. Need?
Ruby Nightmare Blade (Strike 4): 2 DM Maneuvers – prereq and exchange later.
Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance 3): 1 DM Maneuvers. 3rd stance choice. Good ac?
Bounding Assault (Strike 4): 2 DM Maneuvers- charge anywhere!
Diamond Nightmare Blade (Strike 8): 3DM Maneuvers -
Hearing the Air (Stance 5): 2 DM Maneuvers- 4rd choice of stances.
Moment of Alacrity (Boost 6): 2 DM Maneuvers – Initiative? HA!
Quicksilver Motion (Boost 7): 3 DM Maneuvers – move and charge!
Stance of Alacrity (Stance 8): 3 DM Maneuvers – My second stance choice.
Time Stands Still (Strike 9): 4 DM Maneuvers – two full attacks, one round. yay!

Iron heart

Punishing Stance (Stance 1): - I need a stance so there you go.
Wall of Blades (Counter 2): - Defense.
Iron Heart Surge (Boost 3): 1 IH Maneuvers – Natural.
Lightning Recovery (Counter 4): 2 IH Maneuvers – Second chance for your strikes.
Iron Heart Focus (Counter 5): 2 IH Maneuvers – This vs. Diamond mind counters??
Iron Heart Endurance (Boost 6): 2 IH Maneuvers - healing
Finishing Move (Strike 7): 3 IH Maneuvers – Serious damage.
Lightening Throw (Strike 8): 2 IH Maneuvers – for range.
Adamantine Hurricane (Strike 8): 3 IH maneuvers – good for when surrounded.
Strike of Perfect Clarity (Strike 9): 4 IH Maneuvers – more serious damage.


Stone Dragon

Taking these three early--
Mountain Hammer (Strike 2):
Irresistible Mountain Strike (Strike 6):
Elder Mountain Hammer (Strike 5): 2 SD Maneuvers,
Then trade them out for--
Colossus Strike (Strike 7): 2 SD Maneuvers- knockback for charge set up.
Mountain Tombstone Strike (Strike 9): For massive con damage.
Ancient Mountain Hammer (Strike 7): 3 SD Maneuvers- lol Dr.
The only three stone Dragon Maneuvers I want.

I may negate all the Stone Dragon maneuvers for Iron heart attacks that do impressive damage as well, only with a transmuting weapon to take care of DR. So much to choose from...


Also:


1st Warb1 IL1
Moment of Perfect Mind
Steel Wind
Saphire Nightmare Blade
Punishing Stance
4th Warb2/Fighter2 IL3
Mountain Hammer
5th Warb3/Fighter2 IL4
Emerald Razor
6th Warb4/Fighter2 IL5
swap Saphire Nightmare Blade for Ironheart Surge
noted and now looking into. Thanks!

Keld Denar
2010-04-11, 07:46 PM
You probably don't need the Ref and Fort save counters. Will is your weak save. Fort is your strongest save, so you aren't gaining that much. Ref is kinda not as necesary of a save, given that MOST of the time, if you fail a ref save, its just damage and not total disablement.

Also, Wall of Blades is kinda crappy for a power attacking fighter. Since the penalty for PA sticks around until just before your next turn, by PAing, you are effectively lowering your AC. If you aren't PAing, you are probably doing smoething wrong. Just an observation I've had from playing a Warblade myself.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-11, 08:05 PM
Thought about it, but I'd rather go full range with a barb. Doesn't fit the concept as well as Fighter/Warblade either. The point is to try and learn ToB since it seems to be the end all be all for melee... or so I've been lead to believe, though due to lack of response in this thread I'm actually beginning to wonder...

Well the thing about ToB is, you don't actually have to do much for it to be good. Just take a few good feats and be done with it, as most maneuvers are pretty good. You seem to have a decent build already, although I would swap out some of your worse feats (Iron Will and such) for better things like combat brute, or shocktrooper, or other decent tactical feats. Think of going Dungeon Crasher and pick up some knockback stuff. Maybe be a goliath or another cool race and take race-specific feats. There really aren't very many good 'generic' feats.

Eldariel
2010-04-11, 08:44 PM
And Mountain Hammer aka. "Can Opener" is always worth having around; even if it's your only Stone Dragon maneuver, I'd make it a point to always know it. Ignoring Hardness is just kickass; open any walls or doors! If you're willing to eat up Mountain Tombstone Strike, that and Elder Mountain Hammer can be made into your only maneuvers to maintain the can opener-effect while giving you some more efficiency. Mountain Tombstone Strike isn't horrible anyways.

Other than that, well, it comes so much down to taste it's hard to say. Tiger Claw (especially Rabid X and the Jumps, though Dancing/Raging Mongoose are fine boosts too) and Diamond Mind (Nightmare Blade-series, Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades, etc.) are the most impressive offensively, Iron Heart has a good mixture of offense and handy defense, White Raven has some kickass charges, few insane strikes (White Raven Hammer!!!! Level 8 tho) and White Raven Tactics which I'd always learn; if you can't do anything about the bad guy, give the guy who can an extra turn! Honestly, even if WRT is the only WR maneuver you know, it's worth it.

Always pack some mobility maneuvers; Sudden Leap is the earliest, but eventually you'll have some alternatives in Press the Advantage [WR], Quicksilver Motion [DM] and such, especially stuff geared off attacks. Note that generally, Strike of Perfect Clarity, while simple, deals relatively little damage (e.g. Mountain Tombstone Strike and Time Stands Still average far more).

The Glyphstone
2010-04-11, 09:00 PM
Also, take maximum advantage of your ability to retrain and swap out maneuvers. If you take 1st Level Maneuver X, 3rd level Maneuver Y that requires 1 maneuver from that school, and 5th level maneuver Z that requires 2, trade out X the first chance you get for, say, another 5th level maneuver - Z qualifies you for Y, and Y+Z will qualify you for the new manuever Q. As a martial adept, you can swap out at each even level, and with the retraining rules from PHB 2, you can swap something out at every level, so your maneuvers will be a never-ending chain of climbing on each other's shoulders till you can basically cherry-pick whichever you want from the lists.

Paulus
2010-04-11, 09:32 PM
And Mountain Hammer aka. "Can Opener" is always worth having around; even if it's your only Stone Dragon maneuver, I'd make it a point to always know it. Ignoring Hardness is just kickass; open any walls or doors! If you're willing to eat up Mountain Tombstone Strike, that and Elder Mountain Hammer can be made into your only maneuvers to maintain the can opener-effect while giving you some more efficiency. Mountain Tombstone Strike isn't horrible anyways.

Other than that, well, it comes so much down to taste it's hard to say. Tiger Claw (especially Rabid X and the Jumps, though Dancing/Raging Mongoose are fine boosts too) and Diamond Mind (Nightmare Blade-series, Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades, etc.) are the most impressive offensively, Iron Heart has a good mixture of offense and handy defense, White Raven has some kickass charges, few insane strikes (White Raven Hammer!!!! Level 8 tho) and White Raven Tactics which I'd always learn; if you can't do anything about the bad guy, give the guy who can an extra turn! Honestly, even if WRT is the only WR maneuver you know, it's worth it.

Always pack some mobility maneuvers; Sudden Leap is the earliest, but eventually you'll have some alternatives in Press the Advantage [WR], Quicksilver Motion [DM] and such, especially stuff geared off attacks. Note that generally, Strike of Perfect Clarity, while simple, deals relatively little damage (e.g. Mountain Tombstone Strike and Time Stands Still average far more).

Actually I rather like Colossus strike for setting up more charges and Tomb stone is what I plan to take last... if I can ever figure out sorting them...




Also, take maximum advantage of your ability to retrain and swap out maneuvers. If you take 1st Level Maneuver X, 3rd level Maneuver Y that requires 1 maneuver from that school, and 5th level maneuver Z that requires 2, trade out X the first chance you get for, say, another 5th level maneuver - Z qualifies you for Y, and Y+Z will qualify you for the new manuever Q. As a martial adept, you can swap out at each even level, and with the retraining rules from PHB 2, you can swap something out at every level, so your maneuvers will be a never-ending chain of climbing on each other's shoulders till you can basically cherry-pick whichever you want from the lists.

I'm having the most trouble with exactly that right now... Not sure I understand you... the what prereq for and itself counts for itself and progress is really throwing me off.

I plan to take Martial Study and a few more maneuvers to my list, but having trouble compiling them. This is what I'm current struggling with... feel free to help, any is appreciated at this point. Yeesh...


EDIT: Using Stone Dragon Maneuvers, I THINK I got what you mean.

togapika
2010-04-11, 09:53 PM
He was asking if it was a gestalt build, or simply a multiclassed one.

Paulus
2010-04-11, 10:02 PM
He was asking if it was a gestalt build, or simply a multiclassed one.

Yup, it's a multiclass.

I've wrestled and fessled and I THINK I have it down. This is the end result.

Warblade 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 13
1. Punishing Stance (Stance 1): - +1d6 -2ac.
6. Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance 3): 1 DM - Good AC.
12. Stance of Alacrity (Stance 8): 3 DM – More counters!
18. Hearing the Air (Stance 5): 2 DM – Out of combat stance.

Maneuvers per Warblade levels (I'll add fighter levels in after I get it right.)
1. Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter 1): 0DM
- Steel Wind (1IH)[email protected] Lightning Recovery (Counter 4): 2 IH
- Stone Bones (1SD)[email protected] Mountain Tombstone Strike (Strike 9)
2. Mountain Hammer): [email protected] Colossus Strike (Strike 7): 2 SD
3. Iron Heart Surge (Boost 3): 1 IH
5. Action Before Thought (Counter 2 0IH: [email protected] Bounding Assault (Strike 4): 2 DM
7. Moment of Alacrity (Boost 6): 2 DM
9. Wall of Blades (Counter 2) [email protected] Lightening Throw (Strike 8): 2 IH
11. Quicksilver Motion (Boost 7): 3 DM
12. Time Stands Still (Strike 9): 4 DM
14. Finishing Move (Strike 7): 3 IH
16. Adamantine Hurricane (Strike 8): 3 IH
17. Iron Heart Endurance (Boost 6): 2 IH

EDIT: Should I take Martial Study for Crusade Strike? And Martial Stance for Martial Spirit? CAN I even do this?

reptilecobra13
2010-04-11, 11:48 PM
I'd recommend the Weapon Focus tree in terms of feats. It will allow you to hit harder and more accurately, and your warblade levels will stack with fighter levels in terms of qualifying for the higher level versions.

Paulus
2010-04-12, 02:30 AM
I'd recommend the Weapon Focus tree in terms of feats. It will allow you to hit harder and more accurately, and your warblade levels will stack with fighter levels in terms of qualifying for the higher level versions.

Seems a shame not to take those, I mean warbaldes get a class ability to utilize it better than anyone... but I just can't squeeze it in. I'm either making sure I'll never need another weapon with the Unarmed Strike Chain, or Power attack, Leap attack etc.

Maneuvers, stances

Warblade 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 17
1. Punishing Stance (Stance 1)
- Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter 1): 0DM
- Steel Wind (1IH)[email protected] Lightning Recovery (Counter 4): 2 IH
- Stone Bones (1SD)[email protected] Mountain Tombstone Strike (Strike 9)
2.
3.
4. Mountain Hammer(Strike 1) SD [email protected] Colossus Strike (Strike 7): 2 SD
5. Iron Heart Surge (Boost 3) 1 IH
6. Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance 3): 1 DM
7. Action Before Thought (Counter 2) DM [email protected] Bounding Assault (Strike 4) 2 DM
8
9. Moment of Alacrity (Boost 6) 2 DM
10
11. Lightening Throw (Strike 8) 2 IH
12. Stance of Alacrity (Stance 8): 3 DM
13. Quicksilver Motion (Boost 7) 3 DM
14.
15. Time Stands Still (Strike 9) 4 DM
16.
17. Finishing Move (Strike 7) 3 IH
18. Hearing the Air (Stance 5): 2 DM
19. Adamantine Hurricane (Strike 8) 3 IH
20.


Feats

Feats
1. Adaptive Style, Able Learner (human): mmm Skill points.
2. Improved Unarmed Strike (fighter bonus)
3. Versatile Unarmed Strike(fighter bonus), Superior Unarmed Strike
5. Improved Initiative (warblade bonus)
6. Exotic Weapon Prof. (Fullblade)
9. Endurance (warblade bonus)
9. Power Attack
12. Leap Attack
13. Diehard (warblade bonus)
15. Improved Toughness
17. IronHeart (warblade bonus)
18. Stormguard Warrior


This is what I have so far and as far as I know it's all legal. ...not to bad. But still up for suggestions. May be interested in switching something with "Iron Heart Endurance (Boost 6) 2 IH" or maybe a feat or two for Martial Study and Stance to get Crusader Strike and Martial Spirit Stance... dunno though... What do you all think?

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 02:45 AM
On Stone Dragon: No, no, a thousand times no.

Anything with wings or a fly speed turns your class features off.

Tiger's Claw, or Diamond mind (high con is good for concentration checks), both also work when you or your target is flying.

Keld Denar
2010-04-12, 03:26 AM
Um, some of your maneuvers aren't legal. You have Time Stands Still at level 15. Your IL is only 14 at level 15, which means you are capped at 7th level manevuers. You also have a couple 8th level manevuers in places where you don't qualify on them. The easiest way to set this up is to set up a table that has your character level, IL, and what manevuers you gain and lose at each level. Its a bit more work to set up, but its MUCH easier to sort through.

{table=Header]Char Lvl|IL|Manevuer Gained|Manevuer Lost
War1|1|Steel Wind, MoPM, Stone Bones
War1/Ftr1|1||
War1/Ftr2|2||
War2/Ftr2|3|Mountain Hammer|
War3/Ftr2|4|Emerald Razor|
War4/Ftr2|5|Iron Heart Surge|Stone Bones
[/table]

Draz74
2010-04-12, 10:30 AM
On Stone Dragon: No, no, a thousand times no.

Anything with wings or a fly speed turns your class features off.

Yeah, but I'm under the impression that a lot of DMs just ignore this rule to boost Stone Dragon.

Roderick_BR
2010-04-12, 11:16 AM
As I recall, willsaves were more important than HP anyway. This reminds me, I should put in Scorpions Resolve too...
For the record, there's a fighter substitution level in Complete Champion that allows you to trade half your base attack bonus for a bonus in Will saves as an immediate action (pretty much Power Attack for will save).

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 11:36 AM
Yeah, but I'm under the impression that a lot of DMs just ignore this rule to boost Stone Dragon.

If that's the case, then fine. But as written, Stone Dragon is probably one of the worst schools.

Draz74
2010-04-12, 12:28 PM
If that's the case, then fine. But as written, Stone Dragon is probably one of the worst schools.

Can't argue with that.

Escheton
2010-04-12, 12:46 PM
might have missed it, could have already be mentioned, but as you wont be tumbling and sometimes need to get somewhere on the battlefield without dropping due to AoO's before you get there I suggest you take the charging minotaur maneuver to charge and bullrush without any AoO's from anyone.
Great in case you want to slam someone away from the partymage.
Great because you dont move with him and get a AoO yourself as he flies away from you.

and that would be stone...

and I suggest you change steel wind to that seeing you wont be using a reach weapon and wont have 2 opponents in reach as oft, besides you have full bab and will have 2 attacks asap anyways.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-12, 01:41 PM
If you look around, you can find my fave melee/tank race: Tauren from Warcraft. It gets like a +2 Str and Con and a gore attack

combine Warblade and take TWF as your core. TWF one Great Scimmy and a regular scimmy, and cut yer foes down to size.

Or if you don't like tauren (shame on you), here's another version

combine Grey Elf (the elf with +2 int) with warblade and that PrC for elves in ToB. Wield a thinblade and take a 3 level dip into swashbuckler. Have fun! ;3

Noodles2375
2010-04-12, 01:49 PM
Ok, I do think it is very very smart to take improved unarmed strike as a Warblade/Fighter. You don't ever want to be unarmed.

However, I don't know that you need versatile unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike. As long as you're armed, you can initiate your maneuvers and that is what does the real damage in combat.

I'd cut those two unarmed feats for at least part of the weapon focus line. Passive feats like that work really well with the Warblade.

Also I'm not a huge fan of endurance or Diehard. You could consider cutting either or both of those to take the rest of the weapon focus line.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 01:51 PM
Ok, I do think it is very very smart to take improved unarmed strike as a Warblade/Fighter. You don't ever want to be unarmed.

However, I don't know that you need versatile unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike. As long as you're armed, you can initiate your maneuvers and that is what does the real damage in combat.

I'd cut those two unarmed feats for at least part of the weapon focus line. Passive feats like that work really well with the Warblade.

Also I'm not a huge fan of endurance or Diehard. You could consider cutting either or both of those to take the rest of the weapon focus line.

Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws

All the fun of Diehard, none of the crappy pre-req feats. The only pre-req is actually GOOD to have (Con 13+).

Escheton
2010-04-12, 01:54 PM
Ok, I do think it is very very smart to take improved unarmed strike as a Warblade/Fighter. You don't ever want to be unarmed.

However, I don't know that you need versatile unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike. As long as you're armed, you can initiate your maneuvers and that is what does the real damage in combat.

I'd cut those two unarmed feats for at least part of the weapon focus line. Passive feats like that work really well with the Warblade.

Also I'm not a huge fan of endurance or Diehard. You could consider cutting either or both of those to take the rest of the weapon focus line.


He's doing what now?

Dude, spiked gauntlet and normal gauntlet and you are always armed and can deal slash(sword), pierce(spiked) and bludge(normal gaunt)
Unless you need it as prereqs for some obscure prestigeclass, and even then just dip monk

Paulus
2010-04-12, 02:24 PM
On Stone Dragon: No, no, a thousand times no.

Anything with wings or a fly speed turns your class features off.

Tiger's Claw, or Diamond mind (high con is good for concentration checks), both also work when you or your target is flying.

Yeah I noticed, that's why I only want two, and even then just to keep Colossus Strike for ground opponents, mountain tomb stone is also good for things that don't fly and thus will have really huge con. However, this is the reason I'm taking adaptive style so I can switch such things in an dour on the fly if there is the aspect of fly.


Um, some of your maneuvers aren't legal. You have Time Stands Still at level 15. Your IL is only 14 at level 15, which means you are capped at 7th level manevuers. You also have a couple 8th level manevuers in places where you don't qualify on them. The easiest way to set this up is to set up a table that has your character level, IL, and what manevuers you gain and lose at each level. Its a bit more work to set up, but its MUCH easier to sort through.

{table=Header]Char Lvl|IL|Manevuer Gained|Manevuer Lost
War1|1|Steel Wind, MoPM, Stone Bones
War1/Ftr1|1||
War1/Ftr2|2||
War2/Ftr2|3|Mountain Hammer|
War3/Ftr2|4|Emerald Razor|
War4/Ftr2|5|Iron Heart Surge|Stone Bones
[/table]

BLAST IT! I knew I'd miss or screw up something. Thanks Keld. I'll begin switching things around immediately.



might have missed it, could have already be mentioned, but as you wont be tumbling and sometimes need to get somewhere on the battlefield without dropping due to AoO's before you get there I suggest you take the charging minotaur maneuver to

Why won't I be tumbling? I do plan to charge a lot yes, but I also plan to have tumble around. Charging past a bunch of foes to get to one is all well and good, but I'd rather use Quicksilver, to move with tumble, and then attack the whatever in this case. Bounding assault, leap attack, and quicksilver are my instant charge maneuvers and Colossus strike can set up even MORE leap attack charge maneuvers. But I don't see why that would eliminate my tumbling if I need to get by something. I know low dex doesn't help, but I plan to go for High Spot, Listen, Jump, Tumble, and that's about it.



If you look around, you can find my fave melee/tank race: Tauren from Warcraft. It gets like a +2 Str and Con and a gore attack

Heh, no offense, but I'm sticking with human for the feat, and for the concept. WoW just ain't my cup of tea.



Ok, I do think it is very very smart to take improved unarmed strike as a Warblade/Fighter. You don't ever want to be unarmed.

However, I don't know that you need versatile unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike. As long as you're armed, you can initiate your maneuvers and that is what does the real damage in combat.

Also I'm not a huge fan of endurance or Diehard. You could consider cutting either or both of those to take the rest of the weapon focus line.

It was more for never needing an off hand weapon again, Versatile allows that to includes a dagger for cutting ropes or out of stomachs. Superior Unarmed was just to make it viable damage wise. ...but I am leaning toward getting rid of three feats for say the weapon focus line and mayeb some clawed gauntlets instead...

Oh also as for diehard and endurance? they were warblade bonus feats. Which means I had to select from the list on the page. I'd totally ditch them both and Improve initiative for weapon focus etc line if I could.



He's doing what now?

Dude, spiked gauntlet and normal gauntlet and you are always armed and can deal slash(sword), pierce(spiked) and bludge(normal gaunt)
Unless you need it as prereqs for some obscure prestigeclass, and even then just dip monk

Actually I think clawed gauntlets may work better... I can always use a transmuting weapon to get past DR... hmmmm....

work in progress, pay no mind.

{table=Header]Char Lvl|IL|Manevuer Gained|Manevuer Lost
War1| 1|Steel Wind, MoPM, Stone Bones
War1/Ftr1|1||
War1/Ftr2|2||
War2/Ftr2|3|Mountain Hammer|
War3/Ftr2|4|Emerald Razor|
War4/Ftr2|5|Iron Heart Surge|Stone Bones
[/table][/QUOTE]

Char lvl Initiator level Maneuvers gained Maneuvers lost.
War1 1 PS, MoPM (DM),
War1/Ftg1 1
War1/Ftg2 2
War2/Ftg2 3
War3/Ftg2 4
War4/Ftg2 5
War5/Ftg2 6
War6/Ftg2 7
War7/Ftg2 8
War8/Ftg2 9
War9/Ftg2 10
War10/Ftg2 11
War11/Ftg2 12
War12/Ftg2 13
War13/Ftg2 14
War14/Ftg2 15
War15/Ftg2 16
War16/Ftg2 17
War17/Ftg2 18
War18/Ftg2 19







Warblade 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 17
1. Punishing Stance (Stance 1)
- Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter 1): 0DM
- Steel Wind (1IH)[email protected] Lightning Recovery (Counter 4): 2 IH
- Stone Bones (1SD)[email protected] Mountain Tombstone Strike (Strike 9)
2.
3.
4. Mountain Hammer(Strike 1) SD [email protected] Colossus Strike (Strike 7): 2 SD
5. Iron Heart Surge (Boost 3) 1 IH
6. Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance 3): 1 DM
7. Action Before Thought (Counter 2) DM [email protected] Bounding Assault (Strike 4) 2 DM
8
9. Moment of Alacrity (Boost 6) 2 DM
10
11. Lightening Throw (Strike 8) 2 IH
12. Stance of Alacrity (Stance 8): 3 DM
13. Quicksilver Motion (Boost 7) 3 DM
14.
15. Time Stands Still (Strike 9) 4 DM
16.
17. Finishing Move (Strike 7) 3 IH
18. Hearing the Air (Stance 5): 2 DM
19. Adamantine Hurricane (Strike 8) 3 IH
20.

Iron Heart Endurance (Boost 6) 2 IH

Feats
1. Adaptive Style, Able Learner (human)
2. Improved Unarmed Strike (fighter bonus)
3. Versatile Unarmed Strike(fighter bonus), Superior Unarmed Strike
5. Improved Initiative (warblade bonus)
6. Exotic Weapon Prof. (Fullblade)
9. Endurance (warblade bonus)
9. Power Attack
12. Leap Attack
13. Diehard (warblade bonus)
15. Improved Toughness
17. IronHeart (warblade bonus)
18. Stormguard Warrior

Keld Denar
2010-04-12, 03:13 PM
Armor Spikes are cheap to include on any medium or heavy metal armor. If you plan on wearing a Breastplate (best non-mithril medium armor), its like, 50g to get spikes put on. You can't tumble in a Breastplate though, unless you are a dwarf, but you can tumble in a mithril BP which can have spikes. As someone above mentioned, you only need a weapon to use the manevuers, the manevuers do most of the work. That would be the best disarmed defense you can possibly use. Feats are precious, don't spend them on something that cheap cash can alieviate.

Paulus
2010-04-12, 04:42 PM
Armor Spikes are cheap to include on any medium or heavy metal armor. If you plan on wearing a Breastplate (best non-mithril medium armor), its like, 50g to get spikes put on. You can't tumble in a Breastplate though, unless you are a dwarf, but you can tumble in a mithril BP which can have spikes. As someone above mentioned, you only need a weapon to use the manevuers, the manevuers do most of the work. That would be the best disarmed defense you can possibly use. Feats are precious, don't spend them on something that cheap cash can alieviate.

mmm... BAH! I might as well just go full tank route. Forget tumble and just go with Half-plate or something. Always wanted to use half-plate, no one ever does... (for good reason, full plate is better. But still...)
Say, does Weapon Focus etc line work on Armor spikes? Actually wait. If I ever loose my weapon it'll be because I'm naked and without armor. Hmm...

Since I won't be tumbling, maybe I should pick up Charging Minotaur (S1 SD)... Then again Bounding Assault's double move with Quicksilver Motion boost making a Leap Attack may be enough...and there is always fly/teleport/party aid etc. I'm maxing out Jump anyway, might as well use it.

Okay I THINK I get what you mean here about the Initiator level and caps, (heh, didn't even Notice that little chart) so I've reworked it using your suggested listing method.


{table=header]Char lvl|Initi. lvl|Maneuvers gained|Maneuvers lost
War1|1|Steel wind (IH) Stone Bones (SD) MoPM (DM)|
War1/Ftg1|1||
War1/Ftg2|2||
War2/Ftg2|3 |Mountain Hammer (C2 SD) |
War3/Ftg2|4|Action Before Thought (C2 DM)|
War4/Ftg2|5||
War5/Ftg2 |6|Iron Heart Surge (B3 1IH)|
War6/Ftg2 |7||
War7/Ftg2 |8 |Lightning Recovery (C4 2IH), Bounding Assault (S4 2DM)|Steel Wind
War8/Ftg2 |9||
War9/Ftg2 |10| Elder Mountain Hammer (S5 2SD)|
War10/Ftg2| 11||
War11/Ftg2 |12|Moment of Alacrity (B6 2DM), Iron Heart Endurance (B6 2IH)| Stone Bones
War12/Ftg2 |13||
War13/Ftg2 |14|Quicksilver Motion (B7 3DM), Colossus Strike (S7 2SD)|Mountain Hammer
War14/Ftg2|15||
War15/Ftg2 |16|Finishing Move (S7 3IH), Lightening Throw (S8 2IH)|Action Before Thought
War16/Ftg2 |17||
War17/Ftg2 |18|Time Stands Still (S9 4DM)|
War18/Ftg2 |19||
[/table]

I was wondering if I should take Adamantine Hurricane (S8 3IH), instead of Finishing move or Lightening throw?

EDIT: As for feats...

1. Adaptive Style, Able Learner (human)
2. Improved Unarmed Strike (fighter bonus)
3. Exotic Weapon Prof. (Fullblade), Weapon Focus (Fullblade) (fighter bonus)
5. Improved Initiative (warblade bonus)
6. Weapon Specialization (Fullblade)
9. Power Attack, Run(warblade bonus)
12. Leap Attack
13. Endurance (warblade bonus)
15. Greater Weapon Focus(fullblade)
17. Diehard (warblade bonus)
18. Greater Weapon Specialization (fullblade)

I can use Weapon Aptitude to change Weapon focus tree to Unarmed Strike if I'm ever in a jam, and clawed gauntlets as a secondary weapon if swallowed.

Draz74
2010-04-12, 05:15 PM
If you take a second feat focused on Unarmed Strike, it should be Snap Kick. An extra attack (even when you don't make a full attack) is better than an attack with a little higher base damage.

krossbow
2010-04-12, 05:15 PM
The first thing that popped into my head when i saw this thread was "Swordchucks, yo"

Escheton
2010-04-12, 05:18 PM
Right the halfplate thing made me think you wont be tumbling.

now as for items and such
the impaling weaponenchantment (piercing weapon only, such as armorspikes or spiked gauntlets...) makes your next attack a touch attack 3/day
2 gauntlets and armorspikes with that and you have 9 maneuvers per day that will prolly not miss. Great for critical moments when missing isnt an option. And even though there are maneuvers that makes a strike a touch attack, thats all that strike does. This you can combine with awesomesause maneuvers.
The magic item compendium has a specific weapon called "the fist". Check it out and consider 2 with that enchantment.
Ill add more stuff like this later.

Paulus
2010-04-12, 05:53 PM
If you take a second feat focused on Unarmed Strike, it should be Snap Kick. An extra attack (even when you don't make a full attack) is better than an attack with a little higher base damage.

I think my DM would kill me if I get any more attacks on this thing. Heh heh.


The first thing that popped into my head when i saw this thread was "Swordchucks, yo"

The only sword chucking I'll be doing is Lightning Throw with my Fullblade.
(Cue Trinity sound clip: "Dodge this." )



Right the halfplate thing made me think you wont be tumbling.

now as for items and such
the impaling weaponenchantment (piercing weapon only, such as armorspikes or spiked gauntlets...) makes your next attack a touch attack 3/day
2 gauntlets and armorspikes with that and you have 9 maneuvers per day that will prolly not miss. Great for critical moments when missing isnt an option. And even though there are maneuvers that makes a strike a touch attack, thats all that strike does. This you can combine with awesomesause maneuvers.
The magic item compendium has a specific weapon called "the fist". Check it out and consider 2 with that enchantment.
Ill add more stuff like this later.

If I'm ever without my sword it will be because I'm without my armor, naked jail kind of stuff. DM knows I love item crafting and is kind enough not to take all my stuff from me. (otherwise I'd have the "called" enhancement on everything.) I have Lighting Recovery from 'that attack that can't miss', but I will seriously look into clawed gauntlets for being swallowed... I could have sworn there were some around here... maybe I'm thinking of Claws of the Leopard from CAdventurer.. or bladed gauntlets...

Edit: Yeah... that was 3.0 I'll stick to Spiked Gauntlets for backup.

Escheton
2010-04-12, 07:52 PM
if you take psiwarrior lvls instead of fighter, you will have 1 less bab, 2 feats though, access to autohypnosis (which is good), and access to claws of the beast as a power. Which would totally solve the unarmed thing and be way cooler and stuff, lookwise. Also allows psionic focus.
and if im not mistaking another power, as 2 lvls wouldnt just give 1 power (dont have book close so dont know now)

Paulus
2010-04-12, 08:15 PM
if you take psiwarrior lvls instead of fighter, you will have 1 less bab, 2 feats though, access to autohypnosis (which is good), and access to claws of the beast as a power. Which would totally solve the unarmed thing and be way cooler and stuff, lookwise. Also allows psionic focus.
and if im not mistaking another power, as 2 lvls wouldnt just give 1 power (dont have book close so dont know now)

mm. Nice suggestion, but my group never bothered with Psionics. Would still throw off the fighter/warblade progression too... and THAT was hard enough to understand. Any tips on maneuvers though?

I was wondering if I should take Adamantine Hurricane (S8 3IH), instead of Finishing move or Lightening throw?

Keld Denar
2010-04-12, 08:35 PM
You still have your manevuers off. You gain a new manevuer known on every odd WARBLADE level from 5 and up, and swap out an old manevuer for a new maneuver on every even WARBLADE level from 4 and up.

You have that backwards, and not nearly enough lost manevuers. You should have 1 manevuer gained per level, essentially, and 1 manevuer lost every even WARBLADE level.

Note that gaining and losing maneuvers has nothing to do with your IL. Its purely a function of your levels of Warblade. IL only factors there to determine what the max level maneuvers you can learn.

Use this as a template:

{table=header]Char lvl|Initi. lvl|Maneuvers gained|Maneuvers lost
War1|1|{Gain}{Gain}{Gain}|
War1/Ftg1|1||
War1/Ftg2|2||
War2/Ftg2|3 |{Gain}|
War3/Ftg2|4|{Gain}|
War4/Ftg2|5|{Gain}|{Lose}
War5/Ftg2 |6|{Gain}|
War6/Ftg2 |7|{Gain}|{Lose}
War7/Ftg2 |8|{Gain}|
War8/Ftg2 |9|{Gain}|{Lose}
War9/Ftg2 |10|{Gain}|
War10/Ftg2| 11|{Gain}|{Lose}
War11/Ftg2 |12|{Gain}|
War12/Ftg2 |13|{Gain}|{Lose}
War13/Ftg2 |14|{Gain}|
War14/Ftg2|15|{Gain}|{Lose}
War15/Ftg2 |16|{Gain}|
War16/Ftg2 |17|{Gain}|{Lose}
War17/Ftg2 |18|{Gain}|
War18/Ftg2 |19|{Gain}|{Lose}
[/table]

I'd recommend against Adamantine Hurricane. Its decent, but rather circumstantial. I think you'll get better mileage out of either Finishing Move or Lightning Throw.

Escheton
2010-04-12, 10:12 PM
mm. Nice suggestion, but my group never bothered with Psionics. Would still throw off the fighter/warblade progression too... and THAT was hard enough to understand. Any tips on maneuvers though?

I was wondering if I should take Adamantine Hurricane (S8 3IH), instead of Finishing move or Lightening throw?

right, applying for improved weapon focus and such..
yeah, I get lost on tangents fast, prettymuch as soon as the main point seems made (even if others mightnot be able to follow so easy due to being used to more rigid thought and writing structures). Or ellobrate a point real quick before continueing on with the main point.



well adamantine hurricane is 4 attack at +4 minimum as you wont use it on one person as you have better maneuvers for that.
Finishing move is nice, and has lotta flavor. but the damage is variable.
And if you dont already have a massive damage, ancient mountain hammer smashes doors walls and whatever as well as have a nice consistant 12d6 damage
and if you already have a massive dmg maneuver, then you are probably better of getting avalanche to use after having regained your maneuvers the round before with a normal full attack. They might have been touch attacks to get more attacks and thus dmg the next round. But I think it counts.
Which then makes adamantine hurricane less usefull as you use that trick for a better attackbonus total and massive attacks.
Though I might be missing something here.
right the lest im missing is the chance of obliterating a corrador full of foes or just use a massively goed ranged attack for a class that does not do range...at all
well, maybe shift exotic weapon prof if you are a tripper to get bolas on the day your fullblade is in the garage getting a tune-up and you have a greatsword lease-sword

SethFahad
2010-04-13, 12:06 AM
I began my earnest effort to make a Fighter/Warblade hybrid.
The concept. Average joe human in half-plate (specifically) who carries a sword as big as he is (Fullblade) your strong silent type who doesn't do the whole 'skills' thing, he is a tank, pure and simple, hardcore stats overwhelming 'he-just-won't-die' kind of guy.

Level 16 character. 32 point buy. His stat array is:
Str:15
Con:18
Dex:10
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:10

What about the 4 ability bumps(4L/8L/12L/16L)?
I think your reflex saves are kinda...low... only 5??? At 16 level? That's bad.
Furthermore, dumping Dexterity and Inteligence (Oh my GOD! Inteligence? WHY???? :smalleek:) like this, makes waste of Warblades Battle Clarity, Battle Ardor, Battle Cunning, Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge(only partially). So, may I ask WHY?!?!?

Draz74
2010-04-13, 12:08 AM
I think you'll get better mileage out of either Finishing Move or Lightning Throw.

... But beware, Lightning Throw is the cheesiest move in the whole book, fluff-wise. If your DM has ever even thought about disliking ToB due to "too much wuxia flavor" or somesuch, Lightning Throw will make him immediately ban the book.

(At least Balance on the Sky has the decency to have a [Su] tag.)

Paulus
2010-04-13, 12:53 AM
You still have your manevuers off. You gain a new manevuer known on every odd WARBLADE level from 5 and up, and swap out an old manevuer for a new maneuver on every even WARBLADE level from 4 and up.

You have that backwards, and not nearly enough lost manevuers. You should have 1 manevuer gained per level, essentially, and 1 manevuer lost every even WARBLADE level.

Note that gaining and losing maneuvers has nothing to do with your IL. Its purely a function of your levels of Warblade. IL only factors there to determine what the max level maneuvers you can learn.

Use this as a template:

{table=header]Char lvl|Initi. lvl|Maneuvers gained|Maneuvers lost
War1|1|{Gain}{Gain}{Gain}|
War1/Ftg1|1||
War1/Ftg2|2||
War2/Ftg2|3 |{Gain}|
War3/Ftg2|4|{Gain}|
War4/Ftg2|5|{Gain}|{Lose}
War5/Ftg2 |6|{Gain}|
War6/Ftg2 |7|{Gain}|{Lose}
War7/Ftg2 |8|{Gain}|
War8/Ftg2 |9|{Gain}|{Lose}
War9/Ftg2 |10|{Gain}|
War10/Ftg2| 11|{Gain}|{Lose}
War11/Ftg2 |12|{Gain}|
War12/Ftg2 |13|{Gain}|{Lose}
War13/Ftg2 |14|{Gain}|
War14/Ftg2|15|{Gain}|{Lose}
War15/Ftg2 |16|{Gain}|
War16/Ftg2 |17|{Gain}|{Lose}
War17/Ftg2 |18|{Gain}|
War18/Ftg2 |19|{Gain}|{Lose}
[/table]


I… I, you really lost me here…
So… I should move all my maneuvers gained, down one level?
And why would I have more maneuvers lost? I’m just exchanging at each level I can legally have what I want to exchange for at due to IL level.
According to the chart I should have 22 maneuvers??


I'd recommend against Adamantine Hurricane. Its decent, but rather circumstantial. I think you'll get better mileage out of either Finishing Move or Lightning Throw.
Roger. Sticking to what I chose then.


well adamantine hurricane is 4 attack at +4 minimum as you wont use it on one person as you have better maneuvers for that.
Finishing move is nice, and has lotta flavor. but the damage is variable.
And if you dont already have a massive damage, ancient mountain hammer smashes doors walls and whatever as well as have a nice consistant 12d6 damage
and if you already have a massive dmg maneuver, then you are probably better of getting avalanche to use after having regained your maneuvers the round before with a normal full attack. They might have been touch attacks to get more attacks and thus dmg the next round. But I think it counts.
Which then makes adamantine hurricane less usefull as you use that trick for a better attackbonus total and massive attacks.
Though I might be missing something here.
right the lest im missing is the chance of obliterating a corrador full of foes or just use a massively goed ranged attack for a class that does not do range...at all
well, maybe shift exotic weapon prof if you are a tripper to get bolas on the day your fullblade is in the garage getting a tune-up and you have a greatsword lease-sword

Er… little confused about you post here. But as far slaying a corridor of baddies, Lightening throw should help. Fullbladerang!


What about the 4 ability bumps(4L/8L/12L/16L)?
I think your reflex saves are kinda...low... only 5??? At 16 level? That's bad.
Furthermore, dumping Dexterity and Inteligence (Oh my GOD! Inteligence? WHY???? :smalleek:) like this, makes waste of Warblades Battle Clarity, Battle Ardor, Battle Cunning, Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge(only partially). So, may I ask WHY?!?!?

Oh those are just his base stats. I’d put the 3 ability level bonuses in strength, and then a Con item for massive Hp. I’m dumping everything else because that’s the point of this character, insane Con and Str at the sacrifice of everything else. I know being a human doesn’t maximize what I’m going for, but that’s the point, to make a CON and STR monster as humanly as possible. If I spread out his stats it lowers his HP and his Str. Do you know a way to get max STR and CON and NOT sacrifice Int and Dex? Because I’ll take it gladly, in so long as this humble human can stay human, the levels stay the same, and Con and STR are as high as possible, and I only have 32 point buy to work with…


... But beware, Lightning Throw is the cheesiest move in the whole book, fluff-wise. If your DM has ever even thought about disliking ToB due to "too much wuxia flavor" or somesuch, Lightning Throw will make him immediately ban the book.
(At least Balance on the Sky has the decency to have a [Su] tag.)

He allowed a Forsaker in a 3.5 game... I don't think he gets to complain if I throw my fullblade around.

Keld Denar
2010-04-13, 01:12 AM
.
According to the chart I should have 22 maneuvers??

What chart? My chart? My chart shows gaining 20 manevuers and losing 8. That leaves you with 12 manevuers known by level 12, only one less than the 13 a level 20 warblade would know.

You didn't have nearly enough maneuvers lost in your last table. I only seeing you dropping 4 manevuers. Remember, odd levels you gain 1 manevuer, even levels you swap out a manevuer you know for a new one. That means your WARBLADE levels, not your Initiator Levels. Those 2 levels of fighter throw things off, remember?

Paulus
2010-04-13, 03:44 AM
What chart? My chart? My chart shows gaining 20 manevuers and losing 8. That leaves you with 12 manevuers known by level 12, only one less than the 13 a level 20 warblade would know.

You didn't have nearly enough maneuvers lost in your last table. I only seeing you dropping 4 manevuers. Remember, odd levels you gain 1 manevuer, even levels you swap out a manevuer you know for a new one. That means your WARBLADE levels, not your Initiator Levels. Those 2 levels of fighter throw things off, remember?


oooh, Master Keld Denar I feel so stupid! Odd level I can gain a maneuver even level I can switch out one? Like this?


{table=header]Char lvl|Initi. lvl|Maneuvers gained|Maneuvers lost
War1|1|Steel wind (IH) Stone Bones (SD) MoPM (DM)|
War1/Ftg1|1||
War1/Ftg2|2||
War2/Ftg2|3 |Mountain Hammer (C2 SD) |
War3/Ftg2|4|Action Before Thought (C2 DM)|
War4/Ftg2|5||
War5/Ftg2 |6|Iron Heart Surge (B3 1IH)|
War6/Ftg2 |7||
War7/Ftg2 |8 |Lightning Recovery (C4 2IH)|
War8/Ftg2 |9|Bounding Assault (S4 2DM)|Steel Wind
War9/Ftg2 |10| Elder Mountain Hammer (S5 2SD)|
War10/Ftg2| 11||
War11/Ftg2 |12|Moment of Alacrity (B6 2DM)|
War12/Ftg2 |13|Iron Heart Endurance (B6 2IH)| Stone Bones
War13/Ftg2 |14|Quicksilver Motion (B7 3DM)|
War14/Ftg2|15|Colossus Strike (S7 2SD)|Mountain Hammer
War15/Ftg2 |16|Finishing Move (S7 3IH)|
War16/Ftg2 |17|Lightening Throw (S8 2IH)|Action Before Thought
War17/Ftg2 |18|Time Stands Still (S9 4DM)|
War18/Ftg2 |19||
[/table]

If this is correct I only loose 4 maneuvers because I'm only need replace 4 maneuvers for higher level ones, and using IL, to take the correct higher level maneuver at every even level in place of a lower level one. I don't have any other maneuvers I'd like to switch out aside from those four I lost for four new ones at the appropriate IL to gain them and on the appropriate warblade level to switch them. Right? (aaaaah~ maneuvers are so hard!!)

Runestar
2010-04-13, 04:24 AM
Lightning throw does 10d6 in a line. A wizard is doing that much with a lightning bolt much earlier. How exactly is this cheesy? :smallfrown:

Escheton
2010-04-13, 08:43 AM
its not cheesy, its just very unfightery

ok, now, im thinking the confusion comes from you not knowing how to use stormguard properly.

The idea is to use combat rhythm with a full attack (getting your maneuvers back) for a bunch of touch attacks. Every touch that hits gives you a +5 to attack that foe the next round.
With avalanche you get attacks at a increasing -4 untill you miss.
Lotta attacks there if things go right.
Your confusion comes from my not reading it recently and thinking it might have use against multiple attacks. Which clearly it does not.
ow, also try to refrain from taking AoO between the touch attacks and avalanche for an extra +4 attack...

though that is propably not in your maneuver advancement line as it needs another disciplinne then what you are going for probably.

Paulus
2010-04-13, 01:50 PM
its not cheesy, its just very unfightery

ok, now, im thinking the confusion comes from you not knowing how to use stormguard properly.

The idea is to use combat rhythm with a full attack (getting your maneuvers back) for a bunch of touch attacks. Every touch that hits gives you a +5 to attack that foe the next round.
With avalanche you get attacks at a increasing -4 untill you miss.
Lotta attacks there if things go right.
Your confusion comes from my not reading it recently and thinking it might have use against multiple attacks. Which clearly it does not.
ow, also try to refrain from taking AoO between the touch attacks and avalanche for an extra +4 attack...

though that is propably not in your maneuver advancement line as it needs another disciplinne then what you are going for probably.

But I don't have room for stormguard... and I'm not taking Iron Heart aura because I only have one iron heart stance.


1. Adaptive Style, Able Learner (human)
2. Improved Unarmed Strike (fighter bonus)
3. Exotic Weapon Prof. (Fullblade), Weapon Focus (Fullblade) (fighter bonus)
5. Improved Initiative (warblade bonus)
6. Weapon Specialization (Fullblade)
9. Power Attack, Run(warblade bonus)
12. Leap Attack
13. Endurance (warblade bonus)
15. Greater Weapon Focus(fullblade)
17. Diehard (warblade bonus)
18. Greater Weapon Specialization (fullblade)

See?


Lightning throw does 10d6 in a line. A wizard is doing that much with a lightning bolt much earlier. How exactly is this cheesy? :smallfrown:

Probably because a Lightning bolt only does Electricity damage, where as throwing anything means any weapon with various abilities at full weapon damage plus the added damage and any effects and so on. Still, nothing to be amazed about, s'not like any spel caster does Direct Damage anyway.

Keld Denar
2010-04-13, 02:30 PM
Right?

You got it right now, everything is legal. I did notice that you are taking all of your manevuers 1 level later than you qualify for them though. The formula is [Max Level Manevuer] = (IL/2 +1), or similar to when a wizard gets his new spell levels (1st at 1, 2nd at 3, 3rd at 5, 4th at 7, 5th at 9, 6th at 11, 7th at 13, 8th at 15, 9th at 17). This is a function of your IL, not your Warblade levels.

Like, at Char level 14 (Ftr2/Warb12), you trade out Stone Bones for Iron Heart Endurance, a 6th level maneuver. Your IL at that point is 13, which means you could take a 7th level manevuer instead.

Now, don't get me wrong, your build is LEGAL, but you could probably squeeze a few things in a level earlier if you looked. Its mostly on your swap levels (the even ones) due to the fact that your IL is offset from the Fighter levels. If you swapped out IHS for ABT at Char level 6, you could bump everything down a level (access to higher level manevuers faster), and you could nab an extra 9th level manevuer at the end, if you wanted.

Make sense?

Fluffles
2010-04-13, 02:46 PM
Also, Wall of Blades is kinda crappy for a power attacking fighter. Since the penalty for PA sticks around until just before your next turn, by PAing, you are effectively lowering your AC. If you aren't PAing, you are probably doing smoething wrong. Just an observation I've had from playing a Warblade myself.

Not if you can dump the loss into an AC penalty ;) You know, kinda like the best feat evar for PA chargers ;)

Also, WoB applies to touch AC.

Eldariel
2010-04-13, 06:22 PM
Not if you can dump the loss into an AC penalty ;) You know, kinda like the best feat evar for PA chargers ;)

Also, WoB applies to touch AC.

WoB is also amazing in combination with e.g. Rabid Wolf Strike + Rage and such. Your "AC" actually increases with Rage and stays the same with Strike. And yeah, Shock Troop it up later on for great justice.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-13, 08:24 PM
WoB is also amazing in combination with e.g. Rabid Wolf Strike + Rage and such. Your "AC" actually increases with Rage and stays the same with Strike. And yeah, Shock Troop it up later on for great justice.

I particularly like it with the Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness. Trade AC for BAB(up to your BAB), and get actually get more AC.

Paulus
2010-04-13, 08:50 PM
You got it right now, everything is legal. I did notice that you are taking all of your manevuers 1 level later than you qualify for them though. The formula is [Max Level Manevuer] = (IL/2 +1), or similar to when a wizard gets his new spell levels (1st at 1, 2nd at 3, 3rd at 5, 4th at 7, 5th at 9, 6th at 11, 7th at 13, 8th at 15, 9th at 17). This is a function of your IL, not your Warblade levels.

Like, at Char level 14 (Ftr2/Warb12), you trade out Stone Bones for Iron Heart Endurance, a 6th level maneuver. Your IL at that point is 13, which means you could take a 7th level manevuer instead.

Now, don't get me wrong, your build is LEGAL, but you could probably squeeze a few things in a level earlier if you looked. Its mostly on your swap levels (the even ones) due to the fact that your IL is offset from the Fighter levels. If you swapped out IHS for ABT at Char level 6, you could bump everything down a level (access to higher level manevuers faster), and you could nab an extra 9th level manevuer at the end, if you wanted.

Make sense?

Ah so I take the IL level given me on the table you made earlier that is legal, and divide it by two (rounded down?), and add 1, which would be my true IL level on the little chart that says which ones I can take. Is this correct?

That may mean some extra Maneuver or two...

On the note of Wall of Blades, I'd need Shock Trooper to make it effective, but my feat choices are already to limited... But I may rearrange things to take advantage of a higher INT... seems a waste of features not to utilize this stuff.... sure ranges far from the initial STR/CON character... maybe some judicious use of items will better the plight of stats.. maybe a 20 in STR and CON is all I need... I'll need to mess with it more.

Thanks for everyone's help though, any ore tips or suggestions on the build would be appreciated!

The Build as it stands now.

{table=header]Char lvl|Initi. lvl|Maneuvers gained|Maneuvers lost
War1|1| Steel wind (IH) Stone Bones (SD) MoPM (DM)|
War1/Ftg1|1||
War1/Ftg2|2||
War2/Ftg2|3 | Mountain Hammer (C2 SD) |
War3/Ftg2|4| Action Before Thought (C2 DM)|
War4/Ftg2|5||
War5/Ftg2 |6| Iron Heart Surge (B3 1IH)|
War6/Ftg2 |7||
War7/Ftg2 |8 | Lightning Recovery (C4 2IH)|
War8/Ftg2 |9| Bounding Assault (S4 2DM)|Steel Wind
War9/Ftg2 |10| Elder Mountain Hammer (S5 2SD)|
War10/Ftg2| 11||
War11/Ftg2 |12| Moment of Alacrity (B6 2DM)|
War12/Ftg2 |13| Iron Heart Endurance (B6 2IH)| Stone Bones
War13/Ftg2 |14| Quicksilver Motion (B7 3DM)|
War14/Ftg2|15| Colossus Strike (S7 2SD)|Mountain Hammer
War15/Ftg2 |16| Finishing Move (S7 3IH)|
War16/Ftg2 |17| Lightening Throw (S8 2IH)|Action Before Thought
War17/Ftg2 |18| Time Stands Still (S9 4DM)|
War18/Ftg2 |19||
[/table]
-----
1. Adaptive Style, Able Learner (human)
2. Improved Unarmed Strike (fighter bonus)
3. Exotic Weapon Prof. (Fullblade), Weapon Focus (Fullblade) (fighter bonus)
5. Improved Initiative (warblade bonus)
6. Weapon Specialization (Fullblade)
9. Power Attack, Run(warblade bonus)
12. Leap Attack
13. Endurance (warblade bonus)
15. Greater Weapon Focus(fullblade)
17. Diehard (warblade bonus)
18. Greater Weapon Specialization (fullblade)


...actually on that note, DOES a two hander warblade require Power attack/leap attack to be effective or are there other build which are just as good damage wise and Hp wise...?

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-13, 08:56 PM
actually on that note, DOES a two hander warblade require Power attack/leap attack to be effective or are there other build which are just as good damage wise and Hp wise...?

It will make you more effective, no doubt.

That said, you could also take TWF and Improved unarmed strike, and get another 1:1 power attack source.

Again, if your feats are limited, I recommend shock trooper over this. The payout is much better.

Runestar
2010-04-13, 08:58 PM
The cool thing about wall of blades is that it helps to shore up your crap touch AC. Maybe not so appealing vs normal attacks if your AC is normally high enough, but imagine using it against that disintegrate or orb spell...:smallcool:

Paulus
2010-04-13, 10:33 PM
The cool thing about wall of blades is that it helps to shore up your crap touch AC. Maybe not so appealing vs normal attacks if your AC is normally high enough, but imagine using it against that disintegrate or orb spell...:smallcool:

It works against spells and boosts your touch AC? are you sure? Can I get a link to that ruling?

Keld Denar
2010-04-13, 11:00 PM
I'm adding an extra column to your table to make it easier to pick manevuers.


{table=header]Char lvl|Initi. lvl|Max lvl|Maneuvers gained|Maneuvers lost
War1|1|1st|Steel wind (IH) Stone Bones (SD) MoPM (DM)|
War1/Ftg1|1|1st||
War1/Ftg2|2|1st||
War2/Ftg2|3|2nd| Mountain Hammer (C2 SD) |
War3/Ftg2|4|2nd| Action Before Thought (C2 DM)|
War4/Ftg2|5|3rd||
War5/Ftg2 |6|3rd| Iron Heart Surge (B3 1IH)|
War6/Ftg2 |7|4th||
War7/Ftg2 |8|4th| Lightning Recovery (C4 2IH)|
War8/Ftg2 |9|5th| Bounding Assault (S4 2DM)|Steel Wind
War9/Ftg2 |10|5th|Elder Mountain Hammer (S5 2SD)|
War10/Ftg2|11|6th||
War11/Ftg2|12|6th|Moment of Alacrity (B6 2DM)|
War12/Ftg2|13|7th|Iron Heart Endurance (B6 2IH)| Stone Bones
War13/Ftg2|14|7th|Quicksilver Motion (B7 3DM)|
War14/Ftg2|15|8th|Colossus Strike (S7 2SD)|Mountain Hammer
War15/Ftg2 |16|8th|Finishing Move (S7 3IH)|
War16/Ftg2 |17|9th|Lightening Throw (S8 2IH)|Action Before Thought
War17/Ftg2 |18|9th|Time Stands Still (S9 4DM)|
War18/Ftg2 |19|9th||
[/table]

Runestar
2010-04-13, 11:11 PM
It works against spells and boosts your touch AC? are you sure? Can I get a link to that ruling?

Here you go.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070730a

Though no clarification is necessary, IMO, since the maneuver simply modifies your AC, it makes no distinction as to what that AC ought to apply to. It would work equally well on your touch or normal AC.

Paulus
2010-04-14, 01:14 AM
I'm adding an extra column to your table to make it easier to pick manevuers.


{table=header]Char lvl|Initi. lvl|Max lvl|Maneuvers gained|Maneuvers lost
War1|1|1st|Steel wind (IH) Stone Bones (SD) MoPM (DM)|
War1/Ftg1|1|1st||
War1/Ftg2|2|1st||
War2/Ftg2|3|2nd| Mountain Hammer (C2 SD) |
War3/Ftg2|4|2nd| Action Before Thought (C2 DM)|
War4/Ftg2|5|3rd||
War5/Ftg2 |6|3rd| Iron Heart Surge (B3 1IH)|
War6/Ftg2 |7|4th||
War7/Ftg2 |8|4th| Lightning Recovery (C4 2IH)|
War8/Ftg2 |9|5th| Bounding Assault (S4 2DM)|Steel Wind
War9/Ftg2 |10|5th|Elder Mountain Hammer (S5 2SD)|
War10/Ftg2|11|6th||
War11/Ftg2|12|6th|Moment of Alacrity (B6 2DM)|
War12/Ftg2|13|7th|Iron Heart Endurance (B6 2IH)| Stone Bones
War13/Ftg2|14|7th|Quicksilver Motion (B7 3DM)|
War14/Ftg2|15|8th|Colossus Strike (S7 2SD)|Mountain Hammer
War15/Ftg2 |16|8th|Finishing Move (S7 3IH)|
War16/Ftg2 |17|9th|Lightening Throw (S8 2IH)|Action Before Thought
War17/Ftg2 |18|9th|Time Stands Still (S9 4DM)|
War18/Ftg2 |19|9th||
[/table]



{table=header]Char lvl|Initi. lvl|Max lvl|Maneuvers gained|Maneuvers lost
War1|1|1st|Steel wind (IH) Stone Bones (SD) Moment of Perfect Mind (DM)|
War1/Ftg1|1|1st||
War1/Ftg2|2|1st||
War2/Ftg2|3|2nd|Mountain Hammer (C2 SD)|
War3/Ftg2|4|2nd|Action Before Thought (C2 DM)|
War4/Ftg2|5|3rd||
War5/Ftg2 |6|3rd|Iron Heart Surge (B3 1IH)|
War6/Ftg2 |7|4th|Bounding Assault (S4 2DM)|Steel Wind
War7/Ftg2 |8|4th|Wall of Blades (C2 IH)|
War8/Ftg2 |9|5th|
War9/Ftg2 |10|5th| Disrupting Blow (S5 2DM)|
War10/Ftg2|11|6th|Moment of Alacrity (B6 2DM)| Action Before Thought
War11/Ftg2|12|6th|Iron Heart Endurance (B6 2IH)|
War12/Ftg2|13|7th| Finishing Move (S7 3IH)| Disrupting Blow
War13/Ftg2|14|7th|Colossus Strike (S7 2SD)|
War14/Ftg2|15|8th|Quicksilver Motion (B7 3DM)| Stone Bones
War15/Ftg2 |16|8th|Lightening Throw (S8 2IH)|
War16/Ftg2 |17|9th|Mountain Tombstone Strike (S9 SD)| Mountain Hammer
War17/Ftg2 |18|9th|Time Stands Still (S9 4DM)|
War18/Ftg2 |19|9th|
[/table]

Feats!!
1. Adaptive Style, Able Learner (human)
2. Improved Unarmed Strike (fighter bonus)
3. Exotic Weapon Prof. (Fullblade), Improved Bull Rush(fighter bonus)
5. Improved Initiative (warblade bonus)
6. Power Attack
9. Leap Attack, Run(warblade bonus)
12. Shock Trooper
13. Endurance (warblade bonus)
15. Versatile Unarmed Strike
17. Diehard (warblade bonus)
18. Superior Unarmed Strike


Ah, thank you Master Denar, it did indeed make it easier, in fact, it allowed me to switch this and thats to get what I wanted to get get all along!


Here you go.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070730a

Though no clarification is necessary, IMO, since the maneuver simply modifies your AC, it makes no distinction as to what that AC ought to apply to. It would work equally well on your touch or normal AC.

J-J-JAWSOME! Thanks! So if I'm right in this I could:

Use Bounding Assault(if needed) with Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock trooper to make one hell of a first strike, then use Moment of Alacrity to bump myself back up the ranks to have another turn and use Adaptive style to refresh/change my maneuvers out, with Wall of Blades prepared for the rest of the round. Use Colossus strike to knock back the foe, move back a few feet, and then use Moment of Alacrity to put myself back in for another turn and do the whole Power Attack+Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Wall of blades foolishness... devastation!

Almost seems to good to be legal...

Runestar
2010-04-14, 04:11 AM
Use Bounding Assault(if needed) with Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock trooper to make one hell of a first strike, then use Moment of Alacrity to bump myself back up the ranks to have another turn and use Adaptive style to refresh/change my maneuvers out, with Wall of Blades prepared for the rest of the round.

Moment of alacrity doesn't exactly grant you an extra turn. It merely might simulate such an effect, provided you go last and the increase in initiative is sufficient to bump you ahead of the rest of the pack.

Here is a crude scenario to illustrate my point, which also serves to showcase the key use of moment of alacrity. The values below are their initiative checks.

Rogue: +29
Wizard: +20
Warblade: +13
Dragon: +11

What the warblade can do here is to delay his action to +10, thus taking his round only after the dragon has acted (thereby going dead last). The rationale here is so he can observe what the dragon does. He also uses moment of precise mind (MoPM) vs its frightful presence (which is a free action courtesy of stance of alacrity).

After he has done this, during his turn, he initiates moment of alacrity as a swift action, followed by adaptive style to swap in a custom set of maneuvers best suited to fighting that foe such as insightful reflexes vs its breath weapon (based on what tactics he can observe it using in that 1st round). He can also safely swap out MoPM because he won't be affected by frightful presence for the rest of the day, and dragons typically don't have any other will-affecting powers, as well as moment of alacrity because there is very little benefit to using it more than once (unless the rest exceed your initiative by more than +20).

After this, the warblade's initiative is now +30, bumping him to the top of the stack (I use a stack of cards to keep track of whose turn it is to act, after that person has done so, his card is moved to the bottom of the pile).

Now, turn 2 begins. The warblade gets to go first, because he has the highest initiative, effectively allowing him to act again and "gaining" back the earlier lost round.

If he initiates moment of alacrity a 2nd time, it would have no benefit since he is already going first, and you can't be any more "first" than first. :smallsmile:

Moment of alacrity + adaptive style is a useful combination, but nowhere as powerful as suggested. Its main use is more of a "Let me see what my foe is up to so I can customize my maneuver selection to better deal with him" type. :smalltongue:

Paulus
2010-04-14, 12:54 PM
Moment of alacrity doesn't exactly grant you an extra turn. It merely might simulate such an effect, provided you go last and the increase in initiative is sufficient to bump you ahead of the rest of the pack.

Here is a crude scenario to illustrate my point, which also serves to showcase the key use of moment of alacrity. The values below are their initiative checks.

Rogue: +29
Wizard: +20
Warblade: +13
Dragon: +11

What the warblade can do here is to delay his action to +10, thus taking his round only after the dragon has acted (thereby going dead last). The rationale here is so he can observe what the dragon does. He also uses moment of precise mind (MoPM) vs its frightful presence (which is a free action courtesy of stance of alacrity).

After he has done this, during his turn, he initiates moment of alacrity as a swift action, followed by adaptive style to swap in a custom set of maneuvers best suited to fighting that foe such as insightful reflexes vs its breath weapon (based on what tactics he can observe it using in that 1st round). He can also safely swap out MoPM because he won't be affected by frightful presence for the rest of the day, and dragons typically don't have any other will-affecting powers, as well as moment of alacrity because there is very little benefit to using it more than once (unless the rest exceed your initiative by more than +20).

After this, the warblade's initiative is now +30, bumping him to the top of the stack (I use a stack of cards to keep track of whose turn it is to act, after that person has done so, his card is moved to the bottom of the pile).

Now, turn 2 begins. The warblade gets to go first, because he has the highest initiative, effectively allowing him to act again and "gaining" back the earlier lost round.

If he initiates moment of alacrity a 2nd time, it would have no benefit since he is already going first, and you can't be any more "first" than first. :smallsmile:

Moment of alacrity + adaptive style is a useful combination, but nowhere as powerful as suggested. Its main use is more of a "Let me see what my foe is up to so I can customize my maneuver selection to better deal with him" type. :smalltongue:

Really? Well you know what they say about too good to be true, well at least I'll have Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades, Moment of Alacrity, and Bounding Assault. So I can always Power Leap Shock my first turn and bump myself up to first for all other rounds.

Then I’d have,
Colossus Strike, to set up another charge.
Finishing Move, to FINISH EM!
And Quicksilver Motion for mobility.

Pretty straight forward, nothing too amazing, but its more melee than one can shake a stick at! Not to shabby.

Eldariel
2010-04-14, 01:30 PM
Really? Well you know what they say about too good to be true, well at least I'll have Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades, Moment of Alacrity, and Bounding Assault. So I can always Power Leap Shock my first turn and bump myself up to first for all other rounds.

Then I’d have,
Colossus Strike, to set up another charge.
Finishing Move, to FINISH EM!
And Quicksilver Motion for mobility.

Pretty straight forward, nothing too amazing, but its more melee than one can shake a stick at! Not to shabby.

It's worth remembering that losing Initiative happens though, which is why I really love Moment of Alacrity. Also, if you get to fight on your terms, you can use the environment to delay without harming yourself and then use stuff like Bounding Assault to close in + attack and Moment of Alacrity to nova.

Basically, Moment of Alacrity buys you an extra turn if you go second, and allows you to double up on your turns otherwise. E.g. if opponent doesn't have Burrow-speed and you do, you can go underground, delay and then Bounding Assault on top, Moment of Alacrity, and take another turn.

Escheton
2010-04-16, 05:17 AM
So how does this work when delaying to hit a mage every time he casts a spell and such. Provided you dont have mageslayer of course.