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Private-Prinny
2010-04-11, 12:00 AM
Who would win in a fight? An optimized Ninja, or an optimized Swashbuckler? Prestige classes and such are fair game.

Temotei
2010-04-11, 12:01 AM
Who would win in a fight? An optimized Ninja, or an optimized Swashbuckler? Prestige classes and such are fair game.

Oh boy. :smallamused:

I'm inclined to say the swashbuckler is not what a pirate should be. Go pirates! :smallcool:

ladysekhmetka
2010-04-11, 12:06 AM
Who would win in a fight? An optimized Ninja, or an optimized Swashbuckler? Prestige classes and such are fair game.

Depends on the circumstances of the encounter and who got the drop on who

Yukitsu
2010-04-11, 12:07 AM
Oh boy. :smallamused:

I'm inclined to say the swashbuckler is not what a pirate should be. Go pirates! :smallcool:

To be fair and ironic, a ninja isn't what a ninja should be either.

Yorrin
2010-04-11, 12:09 AM
I'm sad to say it, but I think the ninja has an edge. Toss in some invisible blade levels and he's good to go. Swashbuckler... it's fun but it's got nothing that a well built ninja can do better.

Again, I hate to say this, being a pirate guy more than a ninja guy...

Temotei
2010-04-11, 12:10 AM
To be fair and ironic, a ninja isn't what a ninja should be either.

A ninja is more a ninja than a swashbuckler is a pirate. :smalltongue:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 12:17 AM
A ninja is more a ninja than a swashbuckler is a pirate. :smalltongue:

I've seen nothing to suggest that when there are no other ninjas around, that a ninja becomes death incarnate.

Radiun
2010-04-11, 12:20 AM
Scenario 1: Ninja Stealth - Pirate's asleep, ninja sneaks in, it's over before it begins

Scenario 2: At sea, Ninja's boat never makes it to the pirate ship.

Scenario 3: Middle of a sunny day, they charge each other from across a paved plaza with no obstacles. I'd say this one can go either way.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 12:26 AM
Scenario 4: Pirates attempt to plunder a town with ninjas. -Ninjas have stealth and home field advantage.

This is also the most likely actual situation. Pirates would likely have greater numbers (having not just been shot at with cannons), where ninjas would be individually more effective.

Yorrin
2010-04-11, 12:26 AM
Scenario 3: Middle of a sunny day, they charge each other from across a paved plaza with no obstacles. I'd say this one can go either way.

Ninja is going to have better damage, better AC, and more random tricks up his sleeve. In a fair fight, the ninja wins hands down.

Now if the "Pirate" was a reflavored Warblade...

Kylarra
2010-04-11, 12:33 AM
Now if the "Pirate" was a reflavored Warblade...versus a swordsage? :smalltongue:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 12:38 AM
versus a swordsage? :smalltongue:

I do recall a ninja-esque PrC in that book.

Temotei
2010-04-11, 12:50 AM
I think Fax made a pirate class a while back.

Shalist
2010-04-11, 01:40 AM
The CN wizard with ranks in profession: sailor?

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 01:41 AM
The NE wizard with ranks in Profession: Ninja?

Temotei
2010-04-11, 01:44 AM
The NE wizard with ranks in Profession: Dead?

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I'm biased.

Shalist
2010-04-11, 01:44 AM
What? I don't see any wizards with ranks in profession: Ni--ARRGGGHHH*dies*

Totally related link (http://www.theonion.com/video/ninja-parade-slips-through-town-unnoticed-once-aga,14181/)

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 01:45 AM
Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I'm biased.

I can tell. That's the only way someone would favor one character who spends half his film time passed out in a cup of grog over one who spends most of his enforcing stabbity death from the shadows.

Then again, what do I know? Sure, the rum addicts have nothing to fear from masters of poison and stealth.

Temotei
2010-04-11, 01:46 AM
What? I don't see any wizards with ranks in profession: Ni--ARRGGGHHH*dies*

Totally related link (http://www.theonion.com/video/ninja-parade-slips-through-town-unnoticed-once-aga,14181/)

My friend did a speech on The Onion and used that video as an example.


I can tell. That's the only way someone would favor one character who spends half his film time passed out in a cup of grog over one who spends most of his enforcing stabbity death from the shadows.

Then again, what do I know? Sure, the rum addicts have nothing to fear from masters of poison and stealth.

Eh. Pirates are on ships or "in port." Ninjas wouldn't really be able to get to the pirates on ships. In ports, they have a chance, but then again, who cares? The pirate gets sex and booze. Far cooler than "I'm sneaky!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fRWBsFC0Uw)

Not to mention Pastafarianism and The Alphabet of Manliness.

Radiun
2010-04-11, 03:16 AM
[...]The pirate gets sex and booze[...]

There's a joke to be made about Ninja's getting in and out before anyone knows they've struck, but it's just too mean to make.

Adumbration
2010-04-11, 03:26 AM
Now, let's see. Scenario: a group of average pirates, and a group of average ninjas get into a bar fight. Pirates, being social creatures, excel in team combat, but the more ninjas they kill, the more they risk the existance of a "Sum of all Ninjatitude" occurring. Once this happens, the tide turns, and this one ninja of condensed awesomeness wins.

In conclusion, ninjas win, unless the pirates have a captain of at least equal badassery to Sean Connery.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 03:27 AM
Eh. Pirates are on ships or "in port." Ninjas wouldn't really be able to get to the pirates on ships. In ports, they have a chance, but then again, who cares? The pirate gets sex and booze. Far cooler than "I'm sneaky!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fRWBsFC0Uw)


Who needs to get to pirates in port or on ships?

Poison the rum that they take onboard, and kill the pirates...
or replace it with water, and let them kill themselves when they realize they've got no rum rations.

Ninja's have Drunken Mastery, wherein they kick MORE butt when boozing, rather than doing one of the following:

1) sleeping in a bar
2) comically falling asleep on watch
3) ineffectually fighting against actual combatants

Ninjas also have sake, which is far cooler a beverage than rum.

Add in cooler swords, better acrobatics than "I swing on a rope to the other boat", and being able to WEAR PAJAMAS TO WORK, and there's really no contest.

I mean, how many people wish they could wear their bunny slippers to the office?


In conclusion, ninjas win, unless the pirates have a captain of at least equal badassery to Sean Connery.
Would that be Sean Connery, the scottish pirate?
or Sean Connery, the scottish british secret service agent?
or Sean Connery, the scottish dragon?
or Sean Connery, the scottish freakin English King of Camelot?

Adumbration
2010-04-11, 04:03 AM
Would that be Sean Connery, the scottish pirate?
or Sean Connery, the scottish british secret service agent?
or Sean Connery, the scottish dragon?
or Sean Connery, the scottish freakin English King of Camelot?

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/9282/seanconnerys.jpg

Sean Connery the actor, I think. :smallamused:

Killer Angel
2010-04-11, 04:21 AM
Totally related link (http://www.theonion.com/video/ninja-parade-slips-through-town-unnoticed-once-aga,14181/)

I don't know why no one has posted yet the definitive link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Gn9-2YDDc)regarding Pirates Vs Ninjas (go to 7:20)... :smallwink:

Roderick_BR
2010-04-11, 04:31 AM
Poison the rum that they take onboard, and kill the pirates...
or replace it with water, and let them kill themselves when they realize they've got no rum rations.

If you do poison the rum, they'll complain that the rum was watered down...
Replacing it with water is a likely better plan.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 04:44 AM
Sean Connery the actor, I think. :smallamused:
'Actor' is a relative term, considering every role, he plays Sean Connery. Not much of an acting challenge to play yourself. Right up there with Robert Downey Jr playing a drunk womanizer in Ironman.


If you do poison the rum, they'll complain that the rum was watered down...
Replacing it with water is a likely better plan.

One would think that... But for all the bluster, only the cartoon pirates could swallow cyanide and live. So that's about as valid as coyotes surviving falls off cliffs, and crashes into rock walls (assisted by Acme rockets)

Thurbane
2010-04-11, 04:53 AM
I don't know why no one has posted yet the definitive link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Gn9-2YDDc)regarding Pirates Vs Ninjas (go to 7:20)... :smallwink:
O rly? (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/2p27) :smalltongue:

Iban
2010-04-11, 06:16 AM
Pirates everytime :D

WildPyre
2010-04-11, 06:26 AM
I propose that we as the internet, move on from the passe "Pirate Vs Ninja" debate and move on to more fruitful discussions.


Because seriously, it's all about Cowboys Vs Spacemen these days. :smallwink:

Oslecamo
2010-04-11, 06:37 AM
Ninjas vs pirates wars have actualy been going for a lot of time!
http://www.commissionedcomic.com/comics/2010-03-26.jpg

http://www.commissionedcomic.com/comics/2010-03-29.jpg

http://www.commissionedcomic.com/comics/2010-03-31.jpg

http://www.commissionedcomic.com/comics/2010-04-02.jpg


Kudos to commissioned comic who randomly does strips on the matter, being somewhat biased to the ninja side.

Slayn82
2010-04-11, 08:12 AM
Hey, ninjas are all cool, i concede. But Cannons and Heavy Artillery can do one hell of a job on the field of Death dealing. So, go Pirates.

Now, on D&D, that unfortunatelly is useless. Those accursed reflex DC 15 saves.

Ranger Mattos
2010-04-11, 09:19 AM
Ninja would win, hands down. I doubt that even at lvl 20, a swashbuckler could survive 16 touch attacks with +8d6 sudden strike attached to 8 of them.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-11, 09:32 AM
\
Would that be Sean Connery, the scottish pirate?
or Sean Connery, the scottish british secret service agent?
or Sean Connery, the scottish dragon?
or Sean Connery, the scottish freakin English King of Camelot?

You forgot Sean Connery, the scottish Soviet submarine captain...who hijacked his own sub, technically making him a pirate?

Terraoblivion
2010-04-11, 09:40 AM
As this (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_sensei_negima/v23/c206/1.html) and the next few pages show ninjas obviously win, de gozaru.

They not only have the power of sexy on their side, they also take out dragons while blindfolded as a training exercise. Which pirate has ever done anything like that, de gozaru?

Oslecamo
2010-04-11, 09:51 AM
They not only have the power of sexy on their side, they also take out dragons while blindfolded as a training exercise. Which pirate has ever done anything like that, de gozaru?

I acept your facing dragons blindfolded as training, and raise the stake to blowing up planets while destroying armies of giant robots, mutants and rival pirates(plus the ocasional space dragon) as your daily job:

http://www.bestnintendods.com/_wizardimages/20070927_samus_aran.jpg

Samus Aran, DESTROYER OF WORLDS, is the ultimate pirate champion! She has her own ship, she works for money, bounces around on ropes, has a wide array of fire guns and likes to do her job with plenty of fireworks in the middle. Plus being hot.:smallcool:

Terraoblivion
2010-04-11, 09:55 AM
And isn't a pirate, you know. She's a bounty hunter kept on retainer by the government.

Oslecamo
2010-04-11, 09:59 AM
And isn't a pirate, you know. She's a bounty hunter kept on retainer by the government.

We prefer the term "corsair". Wich is just a name for a pirate that acepted to be your ally.

After all, Samus Aran was raised to become the space pirates leader. :smallamused:

But she didn't fancy much the idea of working with her parent's killer, so ended up offering her services to the government, wich was smart enough to acept her.

Amphetryon
2010-04-11, 10:05 AM
See the battle... here! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtPRv3VactM)

Greenish
2010-04-11, 10:14 AM
As this (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_sensei_negima/v23/c206/1.html) and the next few pages show ninjas obviously win, de gozaru.

They not only have the power of sexy on their side, they also take out dragons while blindfolded as a training exercise. Which pirate has ever done anything like that, de gozaru?Which ninja has ever strapped two sea turtles together with the hair from their back?
http://www.poster.net/pirates-of-the-caribbean/pirates-of-the-caribbean-johnny-depp-4900831.jpg
And don't even think about trying to invoke the power of sexy against that.

Evard
2010-04-11, 10:15 AM
Well one thing a lot of people don't know is japan had many many pirates therefore one could conclude they had martial training ... yes ninja pirates :D Of course samurai wins hand down :p

I wish they would make a historically accurate pirate, ninja, and samurai for dnd :3


Most actual prates didn't collect "booty" and had almost no money. Their treasure was food and a bit of spices and they had horrible nutrition therefore a ninja (or anyone) could kill them easily :p wait them out or push them over XD

Oslecamo
2010-04-11, 10:20 AM
I wish they would make a historically accurate pirate, ninja, and samurai for dnd :3

Kinda impossible since there's been a lot of diferent pirates along the ages and we aren't even sure if there were ninjas at all, or if it was just samurais whitout armor trying to be sneaky.

However, I must point out that while samurais and ninjas are mostly fantasy stuff nowadays, pirates are still out there!

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 10:24 AM
http://i.livescience.com/images/Lair-of-Grievous-2.jpg(anything that swings more than 2 swords has gotta have ninja in them)
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/kawasaki/2007/24388_0_1_2_ninja%20zx-10r_Image%20credits%20-%20Kawasaki.jpg(yeah, show me something named a pirate this cool)


Ninjas. Nuff said. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdZa8E7pQAQ)

Heliomance
2010-04-11, 10:26 AM
Would that be Sean Connery, the scottish pirate?
or Sean Connery, the scottish british secret service agent?
or Sean Connery, the scottish dragon?
or Sean Connery, the scottish freakin English King of Camelot?You forgot Sean Connery, the scottish Soviet submarine captain...who hijacked his own sub, technically making him a pirate?
Sean Connery, the scottish egyptian who spent a few centuries in Japan?
Sean Connery, the scottish king of Ancient Greece?
Sean Connery, the scottish Robin Hood?
Sean Connery, the scottish english ex-pat big game hunter/hero?

Starbuck_II
2010-04-11, 10:32 AM
I perfer NvP: http://vimeo.com/4633968

Greenish
2010-04-11, 10:32 AM
Ninjas. Nuff said. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdZa8E7pQAQ)I wouldn't even bother to pirate that movie.

Draz74
2010-04-11, 11:24 AM
And isn't a pirate, you know. She's a bounty hunter kept on retainer by the government.

Meh, bounty hunter ... privateer ... pirate ... it all just depends on your point of view.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:olB60buek3rxZM:http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter54/text-Fuego/FrancisDrake.jpg

Did you know that, once, every single Spanish ship bringing gold and other treasure back from America for a year was successfully hit by the English pirates privateers? We're talking about major victories in the (economic) struggles of world superpowers, here. Accomplished by pirates.

I think that, combined with the fact that it actually happened, blows "beat dragons blindfolded" out of the water, no problem.

Oslecamo
2010-04-11, 11:56 AM
Meh, bounty hunter ... privateer ... pirate ... it all just depends on your point of view.


Very true. Few pirates would call themselves "pirates". Bounty Hunter sounds a lot nicer.

Soranar
2010-04-11, 03:43 PM
While both are not very good classes, swashbuckler is still much better than ninja IMO

As for ''include anything you ever saw or read'' , I would remind you that Samus is fighting "space pirates" which totally own space ninjas (see Firefly final episode).

Pirates also tend to have a personality , and make better films/stars/heroes/villains , as opposed to ninjas who are barely more interesting than zombies.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-11, 03:47 PM
While both are not very good classes, swashbuckler is still much better than ninja IMO

As for ''include anything you ever saw or read'' , I would remind you that Samus is fighting "space pirates" which totally own space ninjas (see Firefly final episode).

Pirates also tend to have a personality , and make better films/stars/heroes/villains , as opposed to ninjas who are barely more interesting than zombies.

I point you to NvP movie I posted (those ninjas have personality).
Also Hanzo Hattori had a personality: although he was not much a talky person.

JaronK
2010-04-11, 03:52 PM
What about the other Ninja classes, like the Ninja Spy or the Rokugan Ninja? Can we use those?

JaronK

chiasaur11
2010-04-11, 04:01 PM
Ninjas.

Better medical care.

Compare (http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF165-Yarteries.jpg)the two. (http://drmcninja.com/)

Starbuck_II
2010-04-11, 04:19 PM
Hey, no fair: Captain Blood is a doctor Pirate. He has his own movie.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 04:28 PM
While both are not very good classes, swashbuckler is still much better than ninja IMO

As for ''include anything you ever saw or read'' , I would remind you that Samus is fighting "space pirates" which totally own space ninjas (see Firefly final episode).

Yes, because reavers totally owned River Tam...

Oh wait.

Yukitsu
2010-04-11, 04:33 PM
Very true. Few pirates would call themselves "pirates". Bounty Hunter sounds a lot nicer.

The ones that flew a jolly roger didn't make that distinction.

Besides, bounty hunters look for specific individuals. Can't really claim that's what you're doing as a pirate, or even a corsair.

OverdrivePrime
2010-04-11, 04:39 PM
I'll maintain that generally, pirates are a loud-mouth, unwashed, smelly bunch of drunken hooligans who fight with almost no strategy besides "rip open their bellies and make off with their women, rum and jewels".

Your average pirate is clearly not a swashbuckler. He is a barbarian.
And so long as these barbarians survive to level 2, they're pretty much immune to ninjas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#uncannyDodge). So, much to my regret, in D&D, pirates will kick the crap out of ninjas. However, Ninjas, particularly the American kind (http://www.impawards.com/1985/posters/american_ninja.jpg), remain much cooler.

chiasaur11
2010-04-11, 04:49 PM
While both are not very good classes, swashbuckler is still much better than ninja IMO

As for ''include anything you ever saw or read'' , I would remind you that Samus is fighting "space pirates" which totally own space ninjas (see Firefly final episode).

Pirates also tend to have a personality , and make better films/stars/heroes/villains , as opposed to ninjas who are barely more interesting than zombies.

Samus is, according to science, a Space Ninja.

You're digging your own grave.

And to spit in it:

GI Joe.

Ninjas: Snake Eyes, Storm Shadow, tons of others. Kick tons of asses even in groups.

Pirates: Maybe Shipwreck, the good natured comic relief. Was captured by Cobra and nearly convinced he'd forgotten roughly twenty years, despite the fact the story was ridiculous.

Malificus
2010-04-11, 04:58 PM
I propose that we as the internet, move on from the passe "Pirate Vs Ninja" debate and move on to more fruitful discussions.


Because seriously, it's all about Cowboys Vs Spacemen these days. :smallwink:

Nope, nowadays it's all Army Ants vs. Navy Seals.

Oslecamo
2010-04-11, 05:09 PM
Samus is, according to science, a Space Ninja.


Samus "Crash into planets with my own space ship" Aran?
Samus "Lose 99% of my weapons in the first minutes of game" Aran?
Samus "Loot and pillage to increase my power" Aran?
Samus "Bounce around on ropes" Aran?
Samus "Has a bazillion of gadgets, none of them for stealth" Aran?
Samus "I have an heavy cannon for an arm that also shoots rockets" Aran?
Samus "I open chests by blowing them up" Aran?
Samus "Rip apart my oponents with ropes and brute strenght" Aran?
Samus "There's no such thing as overkill, just keep firing and I need to reload" Aran?

The Samus Aran that was rised by science mother brain itself to one day become the leader of the space pirates?

Your science is weak.:smallamused:

cupkeyk
2010-04-11, 08:03 PM
Revenant warforged ninja dread pirate (zombie robot nija pirate).

Draz74
2010-04-11, 08:29 PM
Revenant warforged ninja dread pirate (zombie robot nija pirate).

Needs more dinosaur.

Thurbane
2010-04-11, 08:43 PM
Revenant warforged ninja dread pirate (zombie robot nija pirate).
I prefer necropolitan half-golem Hadozee ninja dread pirate myself (zombie robot monkey ninja pirate). :smalltongue:

Optimator
2010-04-12, 12:35 PM
Pirates win by virtue of having more treasure. Ninjas ain't got no scrill.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 12:50 PM
Samus "Crash into planets with my own space ship" Aran?
Samus "Lose 99% of my weapons in the first minutes of game" Aran?
Samus "Loot and pillage to increase my power" Aran?
Samus "Bounce around on ropes" Aran?
Samus "Has a bazillion of gadgets, none of them for stealth" Aran?
Samus "I have an heavy cannon for an arm that also shoots rockets" Aran?
Samus "I open chests by blowing them up" Aran?
Samus "Rip apart my oponents with ropes and brute strenght" Aran?
Samus "There's no such thing as overkill, just keep firing and I need to reload" Aran?

The Samus Aran that was rised by science mother brain itself to one day become the leader of the space pirates?

Your science is weak.:smallamused:

Samus who dodges bullets?
Samus, master of acrobatics?
Samus, who is practically a posterchild for The Law of Inverse Ninja Strength (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.InverseNinjaLaw) (along with Boba Fett. A billion stormtroopers in Mandalorian armor? Mooks that can't shoot. One guy alone, that hunts people via stealth, ambush, capture, and assassination?)

Yes, Samus and Boba Fett both have solid claims on Ninja status.

That said, the fact that Mother Brain sired Samus for space piracy isn't as strong as you'd think, considering Samus repeatedly beat the poo out of Mother Brain for that.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-12, 01:08 PM
Let me see if i can end the debate:

Pirate: a thug on a ship with a pistol, a cutlass, and a handaxe

Ninja: a stealth-based assassin who uses Deception to kill his target, favoring Kusari-Gama, Ninja-to, and the Shuriken

Weapons alone: Pirate Wins

Now, close classes:
Pirate- Swashbuckler with levels in Fighter and Dread Pirate

Ninja- Ninja with levels in Ninja of the Crescent Moon and Assassin

Winner by Class: Ninja hands down (Spellcasting ftw)

battlefield advantages:

Pirate- Ship, tavern

Ninja- Night or Day. Anywhere at any time, a ninja can hide in plain sight

Winner by Terrain: Ninja

Overall Winner: Ninja

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 02:00 PM
Alternately: Ninja:

Swordsage with levels in Shadow Sun Ninja and Shadowdancer.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-12, 02:01 PM
Alternately: Ninja:

Swordsage with levels in Shadow Sun Ninja and Shadowdancer.

needs more Ninja of the Crescent Moon: Full BAB, Sneak Attack boost, and useful class abilities

Oslecamo
2010-04-12, 02:17 PM
Samus who dodges bullets?

A skill of both pirates and ninjas, since sucessfull swashbuckling demands you to charge against armed oponents with little or no armor. :smallwink:

Except that pirates don't have uber hide skills, wich means they must be even better at dodging. Like a certain bounty hunter we all love.:smallbiggrin:



Samus, master of acrobatics?

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/4315/pirates2dj.jpg
Again, not a ninja exclusive skill. Any pirate worth his salt must be able to balance in swinging ships, climg rock cliffs and walls to assault coastal fortresses, jump great distances, swing around in ropes, fight over moving mill wheels, etc, etc.:smallwink:



Samus, who is practically a posterchild for The Law of Inverse Ninja Strength (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.InverseNinjaLaw) (along with Boba Fett. A billion stormtroopers in Mandalorian armor? Mooks that can't shoot. One guy alone, that hunts people via stealth, ambush, capture, and assassination?)

That law only has that name because sneaky ninjas sneaked their name on the wiki entry. It applies to pretty much everything but alien bug armies.

Plus, Samus laughs at stealth, and revels on popularity and fame. Her enemies know she's coming when they see the orange ship crash on the planet. In Metroid Prime, enemies hide from you!

Not to mention you don't hire her for capture and assassination. You hire her for search and pillage, a pirate's job.



Yes, Samus and Boba Fett both have solid claims on Ninja status.

The second yes. He ended up beated by monks and eaten by a random monster. His father was decapitated by a secondary character. Weakling.

The chick on bright orange armor with glowing green lights that can solve everything with the right type of violence? Not a lot of ninja traits really.



That said, the fact that Mother Brain sired Samus for space piracy isn't as strong as you'd think, considering Samus repeatedly beat the poo out of Mother Brain for that.

You seem to forget the detail that pirates value freedom and individualism very highly, unlike puny ninjas with their puny codes of honor and clans they'll follow to the death.

Samus, like any good pirate, doesn't let herself be bossed around by someone weaker than her, so she kicked mother brain's ass so she could become her own boss.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 02:23 PM
You seem to forget the detail that pirates value freedom and individualism very highly, unlike puny ninjas with their puny codes of honor and clans they'll follow to the death.

Samus, like any good pirate, doesn't let herself be bossed around by someone weaker than her, so she kicked mother brain's ass so she could become her own boss.
Honor is more a samurai thing. Ninjas had more of the "if I have a problem with you, you're going to die when you put on your helmet and realize it was greased with a contact poison."

Ninjas were traditionally solo or small group fighters.

As for pirates not getting bossed around? Those ships don't sail with a crew of one, and one person in charge means that everyone else isn't.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-12, 02:48 PM
The chick on bright orange armor with glowing green lights that can solve everything with the right type of violence? Not a lot of ninja traits really.


You just described Naruto. Who is a Ninja.


Honor is more a samurai thing. Ninjas had more of the "if I have a problem with you, you're going to die when you put on your helmet and realize it was greased with a contact poison."

Ninjas were traditionally solo or small group fighters.

As for pirates not getting bossed around? Those ships don't sail with a crew of one, and one person in charge means that everyone else isn't.

Many Ninja were also Samurai like Hanzo Hattori (he was both).

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 02:59 PM
Many Ninja were also Samurai like Hanzo Hattori (he was both).

Some ninja could be samurai.
Samurai had a code of honor (Bushido).
Therefore, Ninja, who were also samurai, had a code of honor (Bushido).

This does not make any point about ninja and honor. It's another aspect of a character that doesn't go hand in hand.

It's like saying:
1: All People have dog food.
2: Why, that's not true!
1: Yes it is. See, many people have dogs. Dog owners have dog food.

That doesn't say anything about people. Only people with dogs.

Just as this doesn't say anything about ninja. Only ninja samurai.

KurtKatze
2010-04-12, 03:05 PM
Solo or small group fighters forced to be loyal to anyone with an army that is ^^ I mean honestly you put the pirates into a Rum drinking 1/2 of the day passed out position and the ninjas in the shiny moonlight. Anyone mighty japanese feudal lord could have whiped them out intirely so they had to pledge loyality. Ofc they could also sneak in and kill the guy or at least try but well, who says the next to come will be any better?

As a pirate on sea you couldnt be passed out 1/2 of the day without getting ur sorry ass thrown over boat by either the crew or the captain. Now considering they spent most of their pirate lifes there they probably were not passed out 1/2 of the day most of their lifes.
You needet to be a rather able seaman ofc you could be drunk, but not too drunk to get anything done.

You should rather see them as a disciplined crew on a ship not keen on the disciplined part and therefore violent and brutal to compensate that. But surely not outstanding combatants.

So i have to say real life and DnD still the ninja wins but pirates are way cooler ^^

Only if we have a ship fight with a ship of pirates and a ship of ninjas, pirates win! :D

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 03:10 PM
Solo or small group fighters forced to be loyal to anyone with an army that is ^^ I mean honestly you put the pirates into a Rum drinking 1/2 of the day passed out position and the ninjas in the shiny moonlight. Anyone mighty japanese feudal lord could have whiped them out intirely so they had to pledge loyality. Ofc they could also sneak in and kill the guy or at least try but well, who says the next to come will be any better?

As a pirate on sea you couldnt be passed out 1/2 of the day without getting ur sorry ass thrown over boat by either the crew or the captain. Now considering they spent most of their pirate lifes there they probably were not passed out 1/2 of the day most of their lifes.
You needet to be a rather able seaman ofc you could be drunk, but not too drunk to get anything done.

You should rather see them as a disciplined crew on a ship not keen on the disciplined part and therefore violent and brutal to compensate that. But surely not outstanding combatants.

So i have to say real life and DnD still the ninja wins but pirates are way cooler ^^

Only if we have a ship fight with a ship of pirates and a ship of ninjas, pirates win! :D

Here's the problem. We've already ascertained that the fight wouldn't take place on a ship, unless it's moored.

So that's out. And in towns? It's either pillage or drunk. And in either case, ninja have the edge. Street to street and from the shadows is what they live for.

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-12, 03:13 PM
Let's do a quick check, shall we?

Ninjas, assuming they even ever existed, died out several hundred years ago, never really got anything done outside of Japan and are very frequently used in popular culture as an endless supply of faceless mooks.

Pirates have existed across the world pretty much continuously since the dawn of moving stuff around on boats (See Vikings for early examples), are not only still around but are still successfully making rich tourists and wealthy business and goverments uncomfortable to this very day as a real threat, and are most often the source of daring swashbucklers, dashing rogues and the occaisional cosmic powered solar-system stealing super-pheonix.

What?
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2472537/images/1220195298968.jpg

Oh, and though I don't really hold that Samus is really either Ninja or Pirate, Dark Samus IS listed in the Wiki entry for 'Space Pirates'. So, there you go.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 03:26 PM
Let's do a quick check, shall we?

Ninjas, assuming they even ever existed, died out several hundred years ago, never really got anything done outside of Japan and are very frequently used in popular culture as an endless supply of faceless mooks.

Pirates have existed across the world pretty much continuously since the dawn of moving stuff around on boats (See Vikings for early examples), are not only still around but are still successfully making rich tourists and wealthy business and goverments uncomfortable to this very day as a real threat, and are most often the source of daring swashbucklers, dashing rogues and the occaisional cosmic powered solar-system stealing super-pheonix.

What?
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2472537/images/1220195298968.jpg

Oh, and though I don't really hold that Samus is really either Ninja or Pirate, Dark Samus IS listed in the Wiki entry for 'Space Pirates'. So, there you go.

Cockroaches have existed since the dawn of time too. That doesn't mean one could go toe-to-toe with a T-rex and win. Longevity isn't a sign of power. It's a sign of existing in the dregs of society, outside the borders of order, and scavenging whatever they can, and fleeing whenever an enemy that has actual power comes along. For examples, look at what the modern day examples do when they accidentally go after a ship that actually has guns. Face it. Pirates are really the human cockroaches of the ocean.

Pirates are also a frequent supply of faceless mooks in pop culture.

Ninjas, on the other end, have their fair share of awesome too.

Hat-Trick
2010-04-12, 07:37 PM
Ninjas aren't much better compared to cockroaches. They hid in the shadows, surviving off of what they could and fought guerrilla combat with the "honorable" samurai. Similar to the pirates, but they never left Japan and don't exist now. Oddly enough freedom fighting farmers don't last as long as war veterans with nothing better to do than sink the Spanish armada. Sure, modern day pirates and a lot of the early ones are pretty much bullies, but that doesn't mean they all are or always were.

Private-Prinny
2010-04-12, 07:42 PM
The topic derailment is saddening.

This isn't about who would win in real life, movies, video games, or any other medium.

This is about which class would win with flavorful optimization: Ninja or Swashbuckler.

TengYt
2010-04-12, 07:53 PM
Some of the earlier pirates were vikings. If you dare say Ninjas are cooler than Vikings, you're obviously not a fan of metal.

Shalist
2010-04-12, 08:44 PM
Revenant warforged ninja dread pirate (zombie robot nija pirate).


Needs more dinosaur.

This debate is clearly settled:

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4470/nodwick1pager318la4.jpg

danworlds
2010-04-12, 08:52 PM
I'm surprised no one brought this up yet. Batman is a ninja and he can beat any pirate.

Thurbane
2010-04-12, 09:27 PM
Some of the earlier pirates were vikings. If you dare say Ninjas are cooler than Vikings, you're obviously not a fan of metal.
Indeed, not to mention the greatest pirate-metal band of them all, Running Wild:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8a4tmHcdlOQ/SQymNbB5uTI/AAAAAAAAAtg/G5U1hlq8mF8/s400/port.jpg

WildPyre
2010-04-12, 09:42 PM
Really I'm so sick of Ninja Vs Pirate. They're both cool and the complete obsession over that match up is leaving so many other cool match ups in the shadows that deserve attention...

Cowboy Vs Spaceman

Monkey Vs Robot

Elvis Impersonator Vs Drag Queen

Nazi Vs Cannibal

Viking Vs Scottish Highlander (not the immortal guys from the movies and shows =P)

The list goes on and on. :smallwink:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 09:49 PM
Some of the earlier pirates were vikings. If you dare say Ninjas are cooler than Vikings, you're obviously not a fan of metal.

I am quite the metal fan. I still believe that the average ninja is roughly 3.4 times cooler than pirates.

The difference between ninja and pirate is simple:

Ninjas were guerrilla freedom fighters. When times get hard, they fought their oppressors.

Pirates were opportunistic brigands. When times got hard, they preyed on the weak, and fled from the rest.

Sorry, there's no comparison.

And ninja destroys swashbuckler.

Draz74
2010-04-13, 12:18 AM
Pirates were opportunistic brigands. When times got hard, they preyed on the weak, and fled from the rest.
Aww, see, your problem is all in taking a much too realistic view of pirates. Ninja vs. pirate debates (and this thread, considering it's advocating Swashbuckler for the pirate) are supposed to be about romanticized pirates. :smalltongue: Which are awesome.

(Especially since ... there's really no such thing as a non-romanticized Ninja, since we don't have enough concrete historic facts about them at all.)


And ninja destroys swashbuckler.

Eh, not sure about that. I'm pretty sure dipping a few levels of Rogue and taking Daring Outlaw is well within the bounds of the optimization allowed in this contest, and already there you have a decent matchup. (Of course take the spot-invisible-stuff Skill Trick, and maybe even Blind-Fight, on the pirate side.)

Milskidasith
2010-04-13, 12:22 AM
Weren't real ninjas just cheap assassins created out of lower class people (or, in fact, just a group of disgruntled lower class farmers? I can't remember) who killed people with tactics such as poisoning them or killing them in their sleep with farm implements/weaponized farm implements?

While real life pirates weren't exactly Jack Sparrow or the Dread Pirate Roberts, real ninja were certainly no Ryu whatever his last name is or Dr. Mcninjas.

Romanticized ninjas against romanticized pirates is a much more fun debate.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-13, 12:47 AM
Aww, see, your problem is all in taking a much too realistic view of pirates. Ninja vs. pirate debates (and this thread, considering it's advocating Swashbuckler for the pirate) are supposed to be about romanticized pirates. :smalltongue: Which are awesome.

(Especially since ... there's really no such thing as a non-romanticized Ninja, since we don't have enough concrete historic facts about them at all.)Romanticized Pirates?

Like the ones in Peter Pan, that made it their life's goal to terrorize children?

Real awesome, that.


Eh, not sure about that. I'm pretty sure dipping a few levels of Rogue and taking Daring Outlaw is well within the bounds of the optimization allowed in this contest, and already there you have a decent matchup. (Of course take the spot-invisible-stuff Skill Trick, and maybe even Blind-Fight, on the pirate side.)
Dipping a level of shadowdancer is also in the bounds on the ninja side.

Clarity of vision? Only lets you pinpoint creatures that are invisible. Not ones that are hiding really well.

Nope, still not much of a matchup.

Gets even worse if, instead of the ethereal, you dip into swordsage and shadow sun ninja, which is also well within the bounds of the optimization.

Ninja 3 / swordsage (unarmed or otherwise) 2 / shadow sun ninja 8 / shadowdancer 1

11 out of 14 levels have "ninja" in the title, and 2 of the 3 remaining are used solely to qualify for one of the ninja classes. There's only 1 level that isn't ninja or qualifying for it, and it's a "master of stealth and shadows" class.

I'd say it fits thematically. It's got poison use, invisibility, Wis to (AC, Damage, Save DC's), sudden strike, stealth, total darkness effects that are the equivalent of 9th level spells, touch attack negative energy damage, unlimited healing, blinding effects (flashbombs), benefits vs the blinded, cold burst effects when hit, and light spell dazzling effects that deny saves and act as 9th level light spells.

I don't see a swashbuckler as meaningfully fighting this, if it's themed as well to pirate as this is to ninja. It's effectively Dex/Wis only.

Yeah, you could take it if you slapped a pirate hat on top of a wizard, but not with swashbuckler.

Milskidasith
2010-04-13, 12:52 AM
Romanticized Pirates?

Like the ones in Peter Pan, that made it their life's goal to terrorize children?

Real awesome, that.

You do realize that far better role models (or, well, far cooler characters, anyway) such as Jack Sparrow, Blackbeard, and the Dread Pirate Roberts are all romanticized pirates as well, right? Along with... just about every portrayal of pirates in the media.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-13, 01:01 AM
You do realize that far better role models (or, well, far cooler characters, anyway) such as Jack Sparrow, Blackbeard, and the Dread Pirate Roberts are all romanticized pirates as well, right? Along with... just about every portrayal of pirates in the media.

Ah yes, gotta take the good with the bad, and all. What I'm saying is that romanticized notions have their share of "not cool, dude", as well. The notion of pirates being opportunistic raiders that pillage the unarmed and defenseless extends into the romanticized notion as well.

Blackbeard? I doubt anyone will even raise an objection on this one.
Jack Sparrow? Sure, amiable, but still opportunistic.
Dread Pirate Roberts? What was the legend? Takes no prisoners? Attacks and plunders merchant and civilian transit vessels? After all, how was Wesley captured?

Oh, it's glossed over a bit... But it's still there. Opportunistic, preying on the weak. They've just got good PR.

Draz74
2010-04-13, 01:50 AM
Romanticized Pirates?

Like the ones in Peter Pan, that made it their life's goal to terrorize children?

Real awesome, that.

For the purposes of silly internet debates, "awesome" has little to do with the descriptors "good," "heroic," "benevolent," "worthy of emulation," or "I would want to live next door to this guy." Captain Hook in the movie Hook is, indeed, awesome. Smee, too.

Barbossa is no better than Hook, but he's my favorite character in those movies (with the possible exception of Jack). I definitely would call him awesome in the context of entertainment.

If we are judging by the moral virtues of the two archetypes, then yes, the median Ninja is better than the median Pirate. And for every truly Good pirate in fantasy, there are probably ten truly Good ninjas. But on the other hand, there are still plenty of super-nasty, hellishly reprehensible Ninjas around too.

But yeah, my loyalty to Pirate overall is based on the assumption that moral judgment is not one of the primary criteria. :smallamused:


I don't see a swashbuckler as meaningfully fighting this, if it's themed as well to pirate as this is to ninja. It's effectively Dex/Wis only.

Yeah, you could take it if you slapped a pirate hat on top of a wizard, but not with swashbuckler.

Uhh ... you're not much based on the basic Ninja class anymore. Yes, it's very much a Ninja fluff-wise, and no, a basic Swashbuckler or Daring Outlaw build has no prayer against it. But I think the point of this thread was to use crappy classes to represent the two archetypes.

Also, I could build a pretty strong Pirate build using Tome of Battle, too. And it would feel very pirate-y (not just a wizard with an eyepatch) and be quite strong IMO. But no, it wouldn't actually have "pirate" in its class names. So sue me.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-13, 02:27 AM
For the purposes of silly internet debates, "awesome" has little to do with the descriptors "good," "heroic," "benevolent," "worthy of emulation," or "I would want to live next door to this guy." Captain Hook in the movie Hook is, indeed, awesome. Smee, too.

Barbossa is no better than Hook, but he's my favorite character in those movies (with the possible exception of Jack). I definitely would call him awesome in the context of entertainment.I wouldn't. That story was about the freedom of youth, and the oppression of the adult. The pirates were very much one-dimensional archetypes. From whatever perspective you want to use, those pirates are as awesome as a puddle of water.

If we are judging by the moral virtues of the two archetypes, then yes, the median Ninja is better than the median Pirate. And for every truly Good pirate in fantasy, there are probably ten truly Good ninjas. But on the other hand, there are still plenty of super-nasty, hellishly reprehensible Ninjas around too.Agreed. There are bad with good.

I'm dispelling the myths.

Some pirates are vikings. This does not mean that all pirates are metal loving norsemen and that anyone who thinks they are not the best must hate metal.

Some ninjas are samurai. That does not mean that all ninjas are honor-bound noble servants of a lord.

On the whole, pirates are opportunists, given birth by the oppressive. They attack indiscriminate targets, with nothing but personal gain at stake. They buy their freedom at the cost of the freedoms of others, but yes, they are free, or they die trying. At the end of the day, they run from those that oppress, seeking freedom at the fringe.

On the whole, ninjas are guerilla fighters, given birth by the oppressive. They go after their oppressors, by any means necessary. They may or may not be free... But they fight for their freedom, against the odds. But they fight, and attack those that oppress them, for freedom. At the end of the day, they may use subterfuge, but they go after their oppressor; they run from nothing.

Can you understand why I feel the latter is more infused with awesome? A good fighting spirit is more awesome than cowardice.


But yeah, my loyalty to Pirate overall is based on the assumption that moral judgment is not one of the primary criteria. :smallamused:Depth of character isn't either, by your support of Captain Hook. Nor are traditional concepts of literary awesomeness.

As far as I can tell, the only criteria I've sorted out is: "pirates rool".


Uhh ... you're not much based on the basic Ninja class anymore. Yes, it's very much a Ninja fluff-wise, and no, a basic Swashbuckler or Daring Outlaw build has no prayer against it. But I think the point of this thread was to use crappy classes to represent the two archetypes.Let's see. The original concept was "optimized" and "prestige classes are fair game".

Aside from PrC's, Ninja has the most levels, and is most strongly represented by the build. PrC's that were chosen synergize with ninja stats, and provide abilities that allow more effective use of sudden strike and ninja class skills. Moreover, as you stated, they impeccably fit the THEME. Moreover, the Shadow sun ninja negative energy attack gives a reliable and viable way to deal sudden strike damage... And, perhaps just as important, sudden strike increases that damage by a respectable amount.


Also, I could build a pretty strong Pirate build using Tome of Battle, too. And it would feel very pirate-y (not just a wizard with an eyepatch) and be quite strong IMO. But no, it wouldn't actually have "pirate" in its class names. So sue me.
Actually, my choice of ToB was done exclusively because of the Shadow Sun Ninja PrC. I'm sure you could make a bloodclaw master or even a bloodstorm blade, and fluff it into a pirate. The classes wouldn't fit the pirate synergy or fit the theme nearly as well as the above example.

The above works right out of the box. No justification needed. That's about as ninja as ninja gets.

Oslecamo
2010-04-13, 05:27 PM
Some ninjas are samurai. That does not mean that all ninjas are honor-bound noble servants of a lord.

Neither are samurais. Never heard of Ronins?



On the whole, ninjas are guerilla fighters, given birth by the oppressive. They go after their oppressors, by any means necessary. They may or may not be free... But they fight for their freedom, against the odds. But they fight, and attack those that oppress them, for freedom. At the end of the day, they may use subterfuge, but they go after their oppressor; they run from nothing.

Wait, what? Ninjas fighting for freedom? Excuse me, but just no.

The whole idea of ninja is someone who isn't detected. This means completely throwing away your freedom. You don't have the right for fame or even a life. You're an instrument of killing wich even at the moment of death must use his last breath to make himself disapear. Freedom is one of the many things the ninja must sacrifice for his unique path.



Can you understand why I feel the latter is more infused with awesome? A good fighting spirit is more awesome than cowardice.

Shame the ninja has neither. Stabbing people in their sleep for money is the oposite of fighting spirit.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-13, 05:47 PM
The whole idea of ninja is someone who isn't detected. This means completely throwing away your freedom. You don't have the right for fame or even a life. You're an instrument of killing wich even at the moment of death must use his last breath to make himself disapear. Freedom is one of the many things the ninja must sacrifice for his unique path.

Ironic that history disagrees with you: Hanzo Hattori.

nekomata2
2010-04-13, 06:27 PM
Shame the ninja has neither. Stabbing people in their sleep for money is the oposite of fighting spirit.

And yet, so very effective. But really, the ninja would disguise himself as a pirate, become the chef, and poison all the food with low amounts of a poison that would weaken and kill over time.

Yorrin
2010-04-13, 06:36 PM
Correct me I'm wring here, but ninjas would never be allowed to even get near a boat. My understanding of historical ninjas is that they were too low in society to even be considered part of the lowest class. They were treated as less than worthless by society as a whole, and thus trained themselves to physical perfection and were bought by the few wealthy people who thought they could cover up the dishonor of association with ninjas. They were used as assassins and spies, but kept on a very short leash for fear of exposure.

So the whole "ninja honor" and "ninja freedom" stuff is a load of B.S. They were skilled slaves who had to be hidden during daylight hours, nothing more.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-13, 08:39 PM
Neither are samurais. Never heard of Ronins?Samurai who have lost their liege lord? That's rather a lot like a fallen paladin.

Also, ronin were still subject to the code of bushido, and still nobility. If they weren't the best practitioners of it, that's another story.

Wait, what? Ninjas fighting for freedom? Excuse me, but just no. A great many did. They primarily lashed out at figures in power, the very ones who held them down.


The whole idea of ninja is someone who isn't detected. This means completely throwing away your freedom. You don't have the right for fame or even a life. You're an instrument of killing wich even at the moment of death must use his last breath to make himself disapear. Freedom is one of the many things the ninja must sacrifice for his unique path.You don't need to experience freedom to fight for it, friend.

Shame the ninja has neither. Stabbing people in their sleep for money is the oposite of fighting spirit.
Profiting from the death of people who oppress you, as opposed to running from them and hiding halfway around the world, praying that the royal ships of the line don't see fit to visit your part of the world? In the meanwhile, lashing out at random merchants out of frustration over your impotency when it comes to striking a blow at the people who forced you to your life?

That last one doesn't seem so awesome. Then again, you have cannons and a curvy sword, and a boat. Maybe that makes up for it, who knows.

Correct me I'm wring here, but ninjas would never be allowed to even get near a boat. My understanding of historical ninjas is that they were too low in society to even be considered part of the lowest class. They were treated as less than worthless by society as a whole, and thus trained themselves to physical perfection and were bought by the few wealthy people who thought they could cover up the dishonor of association with ninjas. They were used as assassins and spies, but kept on a very short leash for fear of exposure.Very little conclusive is known. The romanticized ninja, however, came from varying levels of society. Some were unclean. Butchers who touched dead flesh. Some were peasant farmers, on the lower levels of society in their feudal system, but not unclean. Some were non-nobles who engaged in commerce. Dealing with the specifics of trade and money was considered in poor taste, and beneath nobility, but still necessary.

The latter were quite often allowed near the boats that they used for trade. The former were quite often allowed near them to onload and offload shipments. The peasants? Less of a reason, but you can't tell me that dock security rivalled Fort Knox.

On top of that, never doubt the value of a good disguise, another trademark of the ninja.


So the whole "ninja honor" and "ninja freedom" stuff is a load of B.S. They were skilled slaves who had to be hidden during daylight hours, nothing more.Your statements show a lack of understanding, which may explain your bias against the ninja.

There were dishonorable ninja that preyed on the weak... But they didn't run. They hid, and they fought.

Pirates? Nearly every single outlaw of the seas? Did run. They abandoned their lives, to scavenge and feed off of people who tried to live within the constraints of society. They're tapeworms, parasites, no more.

Draz74
2010-04-13, 11:07 PM
I wouldn't. That story was about the freedom of youth, and the oppression of the adult. The pirates were very much one-dimensional archetypes. From whatever perspective you want to use, those pirates are as awesome as a puddle of water.
Captain Hook in the original is pretty shallow, yeah. I said he was awesome in "Hook."


Can you understand why I feel the latter is more infused with awesome? A good fighting spirit is more awesome than cowardice.
Many pirate characters are cowards, but many aren't, too.


As far as I can tell, the only criteria I've sorted out is: "pirates rool".
Ah, thank you for representing me as some internet fanboy who can't even spell.

Here's some criteria for you:

Big #1: Humor. Pirates often make me laugh. Ninjas generally don't.
Related to that: quotability, conversation-starting utility, and so on.
Self-confidence, in the form of bravado. See, I tend to be a person who has an easier time doing hard things via discipline and repeated practice; "the ninja way," if you will. I have a much harder time making myself try things "the pirate way": taking risks, acting like you're confident when you're actually not, and trusting that it will work out. So I admire characters who have good abilities in this area.
Profundity. No, wait, I know that sounds backwards, but there's some reason behind it. Good pirate characters often have lines that, if you think about them, have a surprising amount of profound thought in them; and because they come from an incongruous source, they're more noticeable and more likely to make me actually think about them. Whereas when ninja characters say profound things, it all just sounds like rote spouting of mumbo-jumbo cliches to me.
Since you're so focused on depth of character ... maybe I just don't watch the right genres, but I'm having trouble coming up with a really nifty, deep ninja character either, a shining example of all that is best about the archetype. Unless we're counting Batman.



Let's see. The original concept was "optimized" and "prestige classes are fair game".
...
Actually, my choice of ToB was done exclusively because of the Shadow Sun Ninja PrC.

Right. OK. Shadow Sun Ninja is a better class than any pirate-specific PrC. No argument there.