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gooddragon1
2010-04-11, 02:42 AM
Example:
A blue dragon has a line of lightning for a breath weapon. How does the attack encounter enough resistance in the target to damage it? Undead would not be affected if it were just amps and volts won't do anything.

WeeFreeMen
2010-04-11, 02:45 AM
Not completely true. Almost much of everything has a melting point. IE: You can heat something up, excite molecules, in an object/person/etc enough to the point were it gets heated.

As for "Electric" damage in DnD, I've always though of it as regular natural occurrences. "Orb of Lightning" would be someone forming static ball. Call lightning..would be lightning.

I suppose if you wanna be technical about it, you can assume that everything hits supernova [Figurative term, calm down Physic majors] and just overheats/disintegrates.

gooddragon1
2010-04-11, 02:50 AM
Not completely true. Almost much of everything has a melting point. IE: You can heat something up, excite molecules, in an object/person/etc enough to the point were it gets heated.

As for "Electric" damage in DnD, I've always though of it as regular natural occurrences. "Orb of Lightning" would be someone forming static ball. Call lightning..would be lightning.

I suppose if you wanna be technical about it, you can assume that everything hits supernova [Figurative term, calm down Physic majors] and just overheats/disintegrates.

But then fire resistance would work against it... and to get it that high it would have to be a lot more energy than lightning?

The Demented One
2010-04-11, 02:51 AM
The magical electricity energy touches things, and makes them be messed up.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2010-04-11, 02:53 AM
The magical electricity energy touches things, and makes them be messed up.

Eloquence incarnate.

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-04-11, 02:56 AM
The magical electricity energy touches things, and makes them be messed up.
QFT. Aka "The wizard makes things go zappy."

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-11, 02:56 AM
Example:
A blue dragon has a line of lightning for a breath weapon. How does the attack encounter enough resistance in the target to damage it? Undead would not be affected if it were just amps and volts won't do anything.

Just how many catgirls did you aim to kill with this thread? Because I'm counting 43 dead within 2 posts.

Remember: The people who made this game (R.I.P.) likely did not have a good grasp on the scientific aspects of the rules they were designing. And we all know WotC gives no **** about doing the research, as their own books have shown us.

It's best to just say "A Wizard did it" and move along.

Lysander
2010-04-11, 02:57 AM
But then fire resistance would work against it... and to get it that high it would have to be a lot more energy than lightning?

They work a little differently though. Fire heats the outside of things, electricity travels through them. Electricity also disrupt nervous systems and muscle action.

The Demented One
2010-04-11, 02:58 AM
They work a little differently though. Fire heats the outside of things, electricity travels through them. Electricity also disrupt nervous systems and muscle action.
No no no. The electricity touches things, and makes them be messed up. But it makes them be messed up in a different way than fire. This is literally the amount of thought put into it.

Adumbration
2010-04-11, 03:18 AM
Why Shocking grasp doesn't shock it's user as well?
Why is it that Burning hands never set's the magician's sleeves on fire?
How can you create anything out of nothing?
How can you make things go boom with your mind?

It's magic.

Temotei
2010-04-11, 03:21 AM
I like the light spells that deal damage better. Light damage? Honestly.

Mastikator
2010-04-11, 03:28 AM
Also, why is acid and fire considered energies? They should be chemical reactions.
Cold isn't energy, it's lack of energy. They used cold, but not heat (which IS a form of energy)?!?
Fire, light and lightning should all deal "thermal damage".

And "force"? What's force? They obviously don't mean physical force, otherwise it'd be piercing/slashing or bludgeoning.

DIE CATGIRLS DIE!

Thurbane
2010-04-11, 03:40 AM
I like the light spells that deal damage better. Light damage? Honestly.
http://www.bhtoolworks.com/images/laser%20welding.JPG


Also, why is acid and fire considered energies?
There's an interesting sidebar about this in the 3.5 Rules Compendium. Long story short, it's for simplicity...

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-11, 03:42 AM
Example:
A blue dragon has a line of lightning for a breath weapon. How does the attack encounter enough resistance in the target to damage it? Undead would not be affected if it were just amps and volts won't do anything.

This makes total sense in a world where 85 foot long lizards poop lightning out of their mouth.

Poil
2010-04-11, 03:44 AM
I think heat damage/resistance/etc is worked into fire since you can swim through lava with enough fire resistance. It's also great for cooking and shrugging off laser guns.

Nero24200
2010-04-11, 03:47 AM
Electricy in D'n'D isn't anything like RL electricity. It doesn't follow the same rules. You can target creatures which aren't earthed with such spells, instantly breaking one of the normal rules of electrcity (that not touching the ground or having something like thick rubber between you and the ground stops you being shocked). Or the fact that they allow reflex saves for partial damage. We're talking about something which moves at the speed of light and PC's are able to perceive and avoid it?

To be fair, the same applies to other thigns as well. Why does a mundane fire cause 1D6 damage when a fireball does a minimum of 5D6? The simplelist explanation is that spells don't produce "mundane" energy types (unless the spell effect specifically says so). And well...if they did, it would complicate the game so much, since you would need to determine how many volts equates to what level of damage etc.

Lysander
2010-04-11, 03:47 AM
Also, why is acid and fire considered energies? They should be chemical reactions.
Cold isn't energy, it's lack of energy. They used cold, but not heat (which IS a form of energy)?!?
Fire, light and lightning should all deal "thermal damage".

And "force"? What's force? They obviously don't mean physical force, otherwise it'd be piercing/slashing or bludgeoning.

DIE CATGIRLS DIE!

Clearly "energy" is a misnomer. What they mean are "damage types"

gooddragon1
2010-04-11, 03:56 AM
Would you believe I forgot about the catgirls thing when asking this question? Because I did.

Kuma Kode
2010-04-11, 04:16 AM
That reminds me of the time our half-blue-dragon barbarian asked me what the voltage of his breath weapon is...

You're a barbarian in a fantasy setting! You can't even read! You have no concept of voltage whyareyouaskingme ARRRGH.

Roderick_BR
2010-04-11, 04:25 AM
In the same way that lightining bolts destroy things in movies and classic literature. Go ask them.

Also: You have a giant flying lizard that can make magic and spit lightining outta their mouths, and you are worried on how magic eletricity damages things?

Tough it's a good question if lightning bolts would ricochet offa zombies in AD&D...

hamishspence
2010-04-11, 05:32 AM
We're talking about something which moves at the speed of light and PC's are able to perceive and avoid it?

Lightning bolts don't move at the speed of light- though they do move pretty fast.

The ones in D&D could be pretty slow- or, its a case of not dodging the bolt, but dodging the line of effect directed by the casters fingers.

You see them point in your direction- you dodge, and however fast the spell goes off, it doesn't matter, because you dodged before it went off.

peacenlove
2010-04-11, 05:38 AM
That reminds me of the time our half-blue-dragon barbarian asked me what the voltage of his breath weapon is...

You're a barbarian in a fantasy setting! You can't even read! You have no concept of voltage whyareyouaskingme ARRRGH.

The real problem is explaining to him why the voltage (read DC) of his breath weapon increases when he is raging (gaining constitution).

Runestar
2010-04-11, 05:40 AM
Electricy in D'n'D isn't anything like RL electricity. It doesn't follow the same rules. You can target creatures which aren't earthed with such spells, instantly breaking one of the normal rules of electrcity (that not touching the ground or having something like thick rubber between you and the ground stops you being shocked).

Funny enough, I was just reading this christian superhero comic where the protagonist was claiming the exact same thing - that the enemy's electric attacks had no effect on him because he was floating in the air (no grounded). :smalltongue:

AslanCross
2010-04-11, 05:41 AM
Example:
A blue dragon has a line of lightning for a breath weapon. How does the attack encounter enough resistance in the target to damage it? Undead would not be affected if it were just amps and volts won't do anything.

While I don't really like the "It's magic, duh" arguments, you're talking about a fantasy game here. Are you really sure you want to simulate the laws of physics to the letter here?

hamishspence
2010-04-11, 05:43 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning

Apparently, the leader stroke of a bolt of lightning moves at 60,000 metres per second.

Whereas light

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light

moves at about 300,000,000 metres per second.

Roughly 50,000 times as fast.

Amiel
2010-04-11, 05:48 AM
Also, why is acid and fire considered energies? They should be chemical reactions.
Cold isn't energy, it's lack of energy. They used cold, but not heat (which IS a form of energy)?!?
Fire, light and lightning should all deal "thermal damage".


The answer you are looking for is Paracelsus; see also, the Greek concept of the four elements and Hermeticism. D&D subscribes to concepts of alchemical energy rather than the known physical sciences.

hamishspence
2010-04-11, 05:50 AM
Combining the four elements, with Positive and Negative energy- produces a lot of elemental varieties.

And if you go back to 2nd edition, there was a Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning- maybe that's where D&D lightning is drawn from.

Amiel
2010-04-11, 05:55 AM
There were probably blue dragons and electrical attacks prior to Planescape; although the setting did expound upon the material.

Incidently, they really should bring back Planescape.

WildPyre
2010-04-11, 06:00 AM
Combining the four elements, with Positive and Negative energy- produces a lot of elemental varieties.

And if you go back to 2nd edition, there was a Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning- maybe that's where D&D lightning is drawn from.

And combining the 4 elemental energies with "heart" gives you...


CAPTAAAAAAAAAIN PLANEEEEEEEEEET! :smallbiggrin:

John Campbell
2010-04-11, 07:51 PM
The real problem is explaining to him why the voltage (read DC) of his breath weapon increases when he is raging (gaining constitution).

Voltage should directly affect range, indirectly affect damage (which is going to be a combination of current and power dissipation, both of which are determined by the ratio of voltage to resistance), but shouldn't be involved with the DC of a Reflex save. I cannot explain why raging makes his breath weapon harder to dodge, though. I'd have thought the opposite would be the case.

Now, as to the voltage... the breakdown voltage of air is about 30kV/inch, so in order to drive an electric arc across 60' of open air, a blue half-dragon has to be producing something in the neighborhood of 20 megavolts. The simple explanation, however, doesn't explain why the bolt travels in a straight line rather than just arcing to the nearest conductive object (possibly even the half-dragon himself) and grounding out through that. Possibly the half-dragon is using a laser or the like to ionize the air along a line to the target, thus drastically reducing resistance along that line and encouraging the bolt to follow it. This also significantly reduces the voltage necessary to drive the bolt.

(Fry, catgirls! Fry!)

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-11, 08:26 PM
And thus I quote:
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/700674603_mAVrc-L.jpg

Sophismata
2010-04-11, 09:33 PM
I cannot explain why raging makes his breath weapon harder to dodge, though. I'd have thought the opposite would be the case.

I think I've got it - the increased Constitution lets him take deeper breaths, and expel more lightning. While the voltage and current doesn't change, it covers a larger area (?) making it harder to avoid.

Or, to go with the more technical theory, as part of the breath attack, the Half-Dragon ionises the path that the bolt of lightning is to follow. Assuming the entire attack is an expulsion of breath, and that the ionisation process is a part of that, a more forceful expulsion allows for a wider path of low resistance, making it easier for the lightning to ground itself via an available target along that path.

Darkmatter
2010-04-12, 12:24 AM
The answer is "it's magic," but we can come up with a better explanation than that. See, a magical electrical attack actually affects the protons of a target - the air in the path of the dragon's breath weapon, for example. It teleports them away, or shifts them into another plane of existence, or just makes them straight up cease to exist. Now we've got a big bunch of negatively charged electrons with nothing holding them together, which will start flying away from the affected area at near relativistic speeds. These can cause some problems directly, but it's exacerbated when they interact with other matter (like the air) since they'll stimulate the emission of penetrating gamma radiation as well. So DnD electricity damage isn't heat damage caused by passing a current through a resister - it's ionization damage caused directly or indirectly by the electrons themselves. Luckily for lightning mages, there are no rules for radiation-induced cancer, so they don't get it - perhaps part of casting the spell is creating an extradimensional sink for the excess radiation.

A similar explanation can be used for the "acid" energy. A ball of magically coherent protons is created which pulls electrons away from the affected creature's form, damaging its structure chemically in a way that is different than the "fire" or "electrical" energies.

Fire, of course, is adding thermal energy while cold is removing thermal energy from the target. Sonic is essentially mechanical energy transmitted through the air (induced phonons, if you will), and "force" is direct magical manipulation of an enemy's form.

WhyBother
2010-04-12, 03:39 AM
Honestly, you don't need to resort to magic too much: Electricity through a living being is slightly more complicated than simple heat transfer: A couple of milliamps causes discomfort, tens to hundreds of milliamps can lead to uncontrolled muscle movement (generally contractions that can lead to you gripping an electric source tighter), and a few amps start to do real damage. A thin layer of dead skin provides very high resistance, but the body's internal resistance is orders of magnitude lower. Plus, there are reactive factors to consider, meaning frequency actually affects the damage done. Ironically enough, the 60 Hz that's standard for US utilities is probably the single worst choice that could be made in this respect.

Fire (thermal) damage works from the outside in. The damage is localized mostly to the surface. Electricity penetrates the body, and causes _everything_ to heat as it passes through. Organs tend to burn before the muscle does. The damage is qualitatively different.

Also, as far a lightning bolts not doing anything because you're insulated from ground or floating, remember your body is at _some_ voltage. If it was high enough -- that is, if you stored enough charge -- that the charge imparted by lightning didn't make much of a difference, your body would be throwing off arcs to ground already. You're still pretty much toast.

Tend to what catgirls remain, If any.