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penbed400
2010-04-11, 12:43 PM
So when you Polymorph Any Object Shapechange yourself into a Solar, what benefits do you gain? I mean obviously theres a lot of them. I was looking at the entry and I was kind of confused and thought I would double check this with the more knowledgable playground.

Changes:

Str base becomes 28
Dex base becomes 20
Con base becomes 20
Int base becomes 23

Gain all listed Special Qualities
Gain all SLA
+21 Natural armor
Size changes to Large Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)
Base move changes to 50'
Gain fly speed (good) equal to 150'

What I'm unsure about:

Gain spell casting like a cleric
Gain feats
Gain HD

Am I missing something or adding something? Any help is appreciated.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-11, 12:46 PM
Gain spell casting like a cleric
.

*hands over a worm can opener*. You'll need it.

Siosilvar
2010-04-11, 12:53 PM
No special qualities - PaO says nothing except to use Polymorph's rules, and Polymorph only gives you extraordinary special attacks. No SLAs, either.

Feats, no, as extraordinary special qualities. (EDIT: I think. But you don't get them either way).

HD, no.

Spellcasting is almost always listed as (Ex), but that's quite unbalanced, so I'd say no.

What you gain:

28 STR
20 DEX
20 CON
23 INT

Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Angel, Good)
+21 Natural Armor
50' move, 150' fly

DR 15/epic and evil, as it is not listed as (Ex)
NO SR

Outsider and Angel traits, amounting to:
Immunity to acid, cold, petrification
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10
+4 vs. poison
NO Protective Aura
NO Tongues
Don't need to eat or sleep
Proficiency with simple and martial weapons

Ranos
2010-04-11, 12:54 PM
Let's look at polymorph any object :

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another

Now let's look at polymorph :

The assumed form canít have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subjectís HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level

There doesn't seem to be any clause negating this in polymorph any object. That would make it impossible to polymorph into a solar. Did I miss something ?

penbed400
2010-04-11, 01:00 PM
Sorry I put Polymorph Any Object but I was thinking about Shapechange my apologize :smallfrown:

Saph
2010-04-11, 01:05 PM
I'll put back the response I deleted, then.

Shapechange gives you a creature's extraordinary (Ex) and supernatural (Su) abilities, but not its spell-like (Sp) abilities. In practice, quite often, creatures have abilities that aren't listed as belonging to any of those three categories. By default, according to the SRD, that makes them natural abilities. Shapechange doesn't say you gain a creature's natural abilities, so I'd say that you don't gain anything that the spell doesn't specifically grant you. Ie, no spellcasting, feats, or HD.

However, the polymorph rules are quite poorly written and confusing, so I'm not sure if there's a definite interpretation one way or the other.For the sake of sanity, the best interpretation is probably to say you get nothing that doesn't have an (Ex) or a (Su) next to it.

Note that gaining (Ex) and (Su) abilities is already horribly broken, so it's not like you're exactly getting shortchanged here. :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2010-04-11, 01:19 PM
Let's look at polymorph any object :


Now let's look at polymorph :


There doesn't seem to be any clause negating this in polymorph any object. That would make it impossible to polymorph into a solar. Did I miss something ?

Except rocks have 0 HD but the PaO rules allow you to turn them into creatures with HD.

Ranos
2010-04-11, 01:30 PM
Except rocks have 0 HD but the PaO rules allow you to turn them into creatures with HD.

Correction, they don't have any HD, as they are not creatures. So the lowest of your caster level or their HD is your caster level, since their HD doesn't exist.

Douglas
2010-04-11, 01:30 PM
Corrections in bold:

So when you Polymorph Any Object Shapechange yourself into a Solar, what benefits do you gain? I mean obviously theres a lot of them. I was looking at the entry and I was kind of confused and thought I would double check this with the more knowledgable playground.

Changes:

Str base becomes 28
Dex base becomes 20
Con base becomes 20
Int base becomes 23

Gain all listed Special Qualities
Gain all SLA
+21 Natural armor
Size changes to Large Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)
Base move changes to 50'
Gain fly speed (good) equal to 150'
Lose all of your own Supernatural abilities

What I'm unsure about:

Gain spell casting like a cleric
Gain feats
Gain HD

Am I missing something or adding something? Any help is appreciated.

The spellcasting thing is the subject of quite a few raging debates, you're unlikely to get a consensus on it.

Oslecamo
2010-04-11, 01:41 PM
The spellcasting thing is the subject of quite a few raging debates, you're unlikely to get a consensus on it.

Unfortenely, Custserv declared that "casting as class X" is an extraordinary ability, pointing MM5 and the hobgoblin caster as example, making polymorph even more broken.

Fortunetely, it may help bridge the diference between casters and noncasters more easily.

Wizard:My spells allow me to replicate your class features lolz!
Rogue: O'rrly?

Rogue UMD polymorph item to turn himself in monster with spellcasting

Rogue: Hell yeah! Now I cast as a wizard as well, but have more life, skills and sneak attack!

Reaching higher levels, just PoA/shapechange the whole party into spellcaster monsters and everybody is a fullcaster!

Starbuck_II
2010-04-11, 01:43 PM
On that note: does that mean you'll let us do that, Oslecamo, in the PbP game? :smallbiggrin:

MY Cleric wouldn't mind have arcane casting for a brief while.

Oslecamo
2010-04-11, 01:49 PM
On that note: does that mean you'll let us do that,Oslecamo, in the PbP game? :smallbiggrin:

If you ever find any monster who can cast as a fullcaster and manage to get it's cold corpse to study, sure. Rhodius had already asked to play with metamorphosis, and I told him he would need to go out there and find the monsters he wanted to turn into.

Now excuse me, I'll go look for that spell wich makes you explode into little pieces when you die...:smalltongue:

Runestar
2010-04-11, 04:53 PM
No regeneration? That is an extraordinary ability as well...

strider24seven
2010-04-11, 06:24 PM
Just take a look at douglas's sig (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794).

The Glyphstone
2010-04-11, 06:30 PM
Now excuse me, I'll go look for that spell wich makes you explode into little pieces when you die...:smalltongue:

Undead minion + that spell which makes you explode on death (I can't remember either) + Make Whole + Animate Dead = resusable walking bombs?

Douglas
2010-04-11, 07:05 PM
Just take a look at douglas's sig (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794).
Shapechanging into Solars is only a rather small part of that, though, and I went with the interpretation of not getting the Solar's spellcasting too.

penbed400
2010-04-11, 07:24 PM
Well thats actually where I got the idea from but I was having a hard time distinguishing between what was buffs and what was the bonus from being a solar.

Runestar
2010-04-11, 08:51 PM
So let me get this straight...

According to MM5, a lv17 wizard, druid or cleric (animal domain) with a high enough caster lv can shapechange into a solar and access cleric20 spellcasting? :smalleek:

Eldariel
2010-04-11, 08:54 PM
So let me get this straight...

According to MM5, a lv17 wizard, druid or cleric (animal domain) with a high enough caster lv can shapechange into a solar and access cleric20 spellcasting? :smalleek:

Put simply? Yes. Don't forget other forms like Black Ethergaunt for Wizard-casting either.

Douglas
2010-04-11, 09:19 PM
Well thats actually where I got the idea from but I was having a hard time distinguishing between what was buffs and what was the bonus from being a solar.
Scroll down to the bonuses list in post 15 and search for "Shapechange to Solar".

herrhauptmann
2010-04-11, 10:34 PM
Phaerimm gain wizard casting don't they?

Optimystik
2010-04-11, 10:38 PM
Phaerimm gain wizard casting don't they?

Sorcerer, but the principle is the same.

Flickerdart
2010-04-11, 10:38 PM
Phaerimm gain wizard casting don't they?
Sorcerer, but I believe the default Phaerimm has piddly HD, and you can't Shapechange into unique advanced specimens.

nolispe
2010-04-12, 01:17 AM
Revered Elder Phaerimm has 19 hit dice.

2xMachina
2010-04-12, 05:15 AM
Too bad your Sharn is out of touch.

You cannot never turn into a Sharn.