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TheYoungOne
2010-04-11, 02:43 PM
I just took over a Lvl 3 Monk, and need some build ideas. The former player quit the group, and I agreed to play his character.

He is a lvl 3 Monk Shifter with the cliffwalking shift (+2 dex, 20 ft. climb speed)

His stats:
Str: 14 +2
Dex: 19 (21 during shift) +4 (+5 during shift)
Con: 14 +2
Int: 11 +0
Wis: 16 +3
Cha: 5 -3

He has the feats Dodge and Weapon Finesse and picked Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes as his bonus feats.

The Players just reached 3rd lvl, so I have 3000 gp to spend.

Any ideas ?

I was personally thinking about the Ascetic rogue, but I'm open to suggestions :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2010-04-11, 02:49 PM
Does he use any reach weapons?

In any case, taking Swordsage for most of the rest of the way helps. Since he already has some of the feats...he can also get into Master of Nine easily later on.

TheYoungOne
2010-04-11, 02:52 PM
He doesn't have any reach weapons, but like I said, he has 3000 gp to spend.

As for the other stuff, I don't think we have the Tome of Battle :smallfrown:

Anything else ?

Eldariel
2010-04-11, 03:03 PM
You'll...umm...ok, so you're in a classic Monk pickle; one of the major reasons it's considered a somewhat unimpressive class. You really want Dex to damage somehow and yet you can't without Tome of Battle with official sources. Your Strength and BAB are both subpar so Grappling and Tripping just isn't gonna work very well and while you hit decently, you have no damage output.

On level 6, you can take Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike to help somewhat, but not fix the problem. And you definitely want Stunning Fist over Improved Grapple simply because your Wis > your Str and you can combine it with normal attack.


What sources are you working with? That's a key question. It may be salvageable if you can e.g. use Sacred Fist [Complete Divine] or Tashalatora [Secrets of Sarlona] to cover up your weaknesses, but as a pure Monk, you really just don't have much in ways of improving yourself anymore in the future while you really want e.g. damage increases. If you could retrain the third level to Cleric, you could also go for a decent Cleric-build still even without Sacred Fist.

Also, do you have casters in the party? Enlarge Person & Mage Armor are absolutely vital for you, as is Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang on your Unarmed Strikes in couple of levels (enhancing them the oldschool way is way too expensive). Necklace of Natural Attacks [Savage Species] would also help out greatly as it's Amulet of Mighty Fists that isn't horribly overpriced.

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 03:05 PM
5 charisma? Holy crap. In my opinion that's not even worth playing.

Eldariel
2010-04-11, 03:06 PM
5 charisma? Holy crap. In my opinion that's not even worth playing.

What, you just reroll stats if you end up with a low stat? Doesn't seem very fair.

TheYoungOne
2010-04-11, 03:08 PM
I do happen to have both Complete divine and Secrets of sarlona at my disposal. I'll look into it.

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 03:12 PM
What, you just reroll stats if you end up with a low stat? Doesn't seem very fair.

No, I'm a power gamer, I roll 4d6, drop the lowest, and reroll 1s. I'm going to save the world, I can't be some weak bastard. In my group 12 is considered low.

5 charisma is 5 points below the average human. I wouldn't be surprised if you're so ugly that people try to kill you on sight. Seriously, trolls have like 3-4 more charisma than that.

Kylarra
2010-04-11, 03:14 PM
5 charisma is 5 points below the average human. I wouldn't be surprised if you're so ugly that people try to kill you on sight. Seriously, trolls have like 3-4 more charisma than that.
Trolls have cha 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm):smalltongue:

TheYoungOne
2010-04-11, 03:18 PM
5 charisma is 5 points below the average human. I wouldn't be surprised if you're so ugly that people try to kill you on sight. Seriously, trolls have like 3-4 more charisma than that.

Not necessarily. It could also just mean that the character is reserved, shy, gruff orr nondescript (See PHB).

But I still agree, this guy is as charismatic as an ass (donkey :smalltongue:)

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-11, 03:19 PM
Ask to retrain the 3rd level and go for Enlightened fist maybe? Oooh. Cloistered cleric+ Divine Magician and Abjurant Champion. I think it mentions something about a divine variant.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-11, 03:22 PM
Take Monastic Training and Tashalatora and then go Psywar the rest of the way. You're one level post the optimal monk dip, but you should still be fine.

Eldariel
2010-04-11, 03:25 PM
No, I'm a power gamer, I roll 4d6, drop the lowest, and reroll 1s. I'm going to save the world, I can't be some weak bastard. In my group 12 is considered low.

5 charisma is 5 points below the average human. I wouldn't be surprised if you're so ugly that people try to kill you on sight. Seriously, trolls have like 3-4 more charisma than that.

Just because you're heroic doesn't mean you're superior in all aspects. Elite Array is 15/14/13/12/10/8; you're inferior in one and equivalent in one and superior in others (that's the default for PCs). That doesn't make you any less of a hero, it just means you have a weakness. Like every damn hero ever. And Charisma isn't physical looks, damnit.


And yeah, I suggest either:
Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 with Tashalatora: Psychic Warrior
Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 8/Illithid Slayer 10 (going Slayer ASAP) with Tashalatora: Slayer
Monk 2/Cleric 3/Sacred Fist 10

One of those is very good. Even Monk 3 is alright, though you've eaten up one useless level.

TheYoungOne
2010-04-11, 03:28 PM
I can't currently get to the books to look all this up, but I really like the Monk/Psychic Warrior build, especially with Tashlatora.

And who knows, Since the PC's just got to lvl 3, maybe the DM will let me swap the Monk 3 :smallbiggrin:

Mongoose87
2010-04-11, 03:33 PM
No, I'm a power gamer, I roll 4d6, drop the lowest, and reroll 1s. I'm going to save the world, I can't be some weak bastard. In my group 12 is considered low.

5 charisma is 5 points below the average human. I wouldn't be surprised if you're so ugly that people try to kill you on sight. Seriously, trolls have like 3-4 more charisma than that.

Power gamer or not, how many DMs do you know that let you reroll simply because you don't like your stats?

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 03:37 PM
Power gamer or not, how many DMs do you know that let you reroll simply because you don't like your stats?

Actually I show them my stats and they tell me to reroll if they're not high enough. With the type of adventures we go on, without high stats you'll be dead, fast. Or you'll end up being a fifth wheel that is hardly helpful to the rest of the group because they all have high stats.

I think it helps close the gap between those who get lucky and those who get unlucky. And we have a guy in our group who's so divinely gifted with the dice he rolls high for stats every time (he doesn't cheat either, it is like the gods of fate smile on him). For our current adventure he has 18, 18, 17, 17, 16, 15. So it gives the variable of chance and variety without failing miserably.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-11, 03:41 PM
Yeah, but in this case, what use does he have for Charisma anyways? He's a monk.



No, UMD is not an acceptable answer.

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-11, 03:45 PM
No, UMD is not an acceptable answer.

Nice. This will save us something like 34 pages of thread.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-11, 03:45 PM
Power gamer or not, how many DMs do you know that let you reroll simply because you don't like your stats?

In my group we have a rule for re-rolls, you have 1 free re-roll but if the stats are worse you keep the second set, or you can re-roll if the total stat modifier is less than +3 (has happened to me on at least 2 occasions)

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 03:50 PM
Yeah, but in this case, what use does he have for Charisma anyways? He's a monk.



No, UMD is not an acceptable answer.

Bluff is important for feinting. It also denies him doing any divine classes effectively. Or any class that values cha.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-11, 03:51 PM
I just took over a Lvl 3 Monk, and need some build ideas. The former player quit the group, and I agreed to play his character.

He is a lvl 3 Monk Shifter with the cliffwalking shift (+2 dex, 20 ft. climb speed)

His stats:
Str: 14 +2
Dex: 19 (21 during shift) +4 (+5 during shift)
Con: 14 +2
Int: 11 +0
Wis: 16 +3
Cha: 5 -3

He has the feats Dodge and Weapon Finesse and picked Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes as his bonus feats.

The Players just reached 3rd lvl, so I have 3000 gp to spend.

Any ideas ?

I was personally thinking about the Ascetic rogue, but I'm open to suggestions :smallbiggrin:

Do you have Magic of Incarnum? The soulmelds can help alot.

TheYoungOne
2010-04-11, 03:53 PM
Bluff is important for feinting. It also denies him doing any divine classes effectively.

Sorry, this may be a stupid question, but why is charisma so important for divine spellcasters? Sure, he wouldn't turn zombies worth ****, but he'd still be perfectly functional.

Eldariel
2010-04-11, 03:53 PM
Bluff is important for feinting. It also denies him doing any divine classes effectively.

Uhm, Druid doesn't give a crap out Cha and Cleric gains Turnings mostly off equipment and Extra Turning anyways. The only thing it denies him is like...Sorcerer/Monk and Wilder/Monk which are poor combinations anyways.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-11, 03:54 PM
Bluff is important for feinting. It also denies him doing any divine classes effectively.

-Druids have only slightly more utility for Cha than monks do (Handle Animal).
-Clerics only need Charisma for Turning (to power Divine Metamagic), which may not be an option for him, and if it is, it's far more efficient to do so with Extra Turning and nightsticks.

He can't be a Favored Soul or Shujenja. Spirit Shaman, possibly, if he only casts self-buffs and heals, since Charisma only affects his save DCs.

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 04:02 PM
Uhm, Druid doesn't give a crap out Cha and Cleric gains Turnings mostly off equipment and Extra Turning anyways. The only thing it denies him is like...Sorcerer/Monk and Wilder/Monk which are poor combinations anyways.

For some reason I was thinking Sacred Fist used cha. Oh well. Beyond that, 5 cha is in terms of reality... like being born looking hideous and having autism. If you guys want to play that then that's fine. But I at least want my characters to be like an average human (or slightly) below in off aspects.

mikethepoor
2010-04-11, 04:06 PM
If Tome of Battle is available to you, you might want to look at Superior Unarmed Strike. Bracers of Armor, a Cloak of Resistance, or both can help your AC/saves.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-11, 04:06 PM
For some reason I was thinking Sacred Fist used cha. Oh well. Beyond that, 5 cha is in terms of reality... like being born looking hideous and having autism. If you guys want to play that then that's fine. But I at least want my characters to be like an average human (or slightly) below in off aspects.

Just curious, but if Cha 5 is autistic for your scale...what do you consider Cha 1 or 2?:smallconfused:

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 04:07 PM
Just curious, but if Cha 5 is autistic for your scale...what do you consider Cha 1 or 2?:smallconfused:

People would either flee in terror try to kill on sight. People would have to make fortitude saves not to vomit. :P

TheYoungOne
2010-04-11, 04:09 PM
For some reason I was thinking Sacred Fist used cha. Oh well. Beyond that, 5 cha is in terms of reality... like being born looking hideous and having autism.

That really just depends on how severe the autism is. I'd say it could range from 0 to 8. I've met people with autism so severe that they couldn't really respond to other people. And then again, I've seen autistic people who are just a bit... off. they still function normally in the average community :smallsmile:

Starbuck_II
2010-04-11, 04:21 PM
Just curious, but if Cha 5 is autistic for your scale...what do you consider Cha 1 or 2?:smallconfused:

Cha 1 or 2? The guy is a functional golem. Takes no initiative.

InkEyes
2010-04-11, 04:24 PM
Sorry, this may be a stupid question, but why is charisma so important for divine spellcasters? Sure, he wouldn't turn zombies worth ****, but he'd still be perfectly functional.

Divine metamagic works off of turn attempts. Divine metamagic is very, very good.

Anonymouswizard
2010-04-11, 04:34 PM
For some reason I was thinking Sacred Fist used cha. Oh well. Beyond that, 5 cha is in terms of reality... like being born looking hideous and having autism.

Thank you for putting and in, instead of or. From my experience autism can just lead to being focused entirely on a few things and/or having poor social skills. Autism is just a different way at seeing things (people with it are normally better at things related to maths, as they find facts easier than imagination). I, who is the most autistic member of my immediate family (at least) is most likely only 9 or 8 (I definitely used to be 8, but I have gotten better at socialising).

And if anyone claims to not have autism, they are simply ignorant of this fact: everyone has autism, they are just at different points on the spectrum.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-11, 04:54 PM
And if anyone claims to not have autism, they are simply ignorant of this fact: everyone has autism, they are just at different points on the spectrum.

:smallconfused: Not to sound insulting or anything, but there are specific phenotypes that are displayed with autistic people. Sure you could make a case that those are just exaggerated traits that everyone possesses, but then autism is that exaggeration

EDIT: I should probably make my pint clearer. Everything is a scale, but being autistic is being past point X on that scale.

Fineous Orlon
2010-04-11, 08:32 PM
Actually I show them my stats and they tell me to reroll if they're not high enough. ....
And we have a guy in our group who's so divinely gifted with the dice he rolls high for stats every time (he doesn't cheat either, it is like the gods of fate smile on him). For our current adventure he has 18, 18, 17, 17, 16, 15. So it gives the variable of chance and variety without failing miserably.

You guys don't all use the same stats or point buy?


I think it helps close the gap between those who get lucky and those who get unlucky.

Wow, your characters six most important rolls EVER are his first 6 rolls. That blows when someone at the table [not you] averages 16.83.

You guys should look into Otto the Bugbear's method:

One player rolls 4d6 and drops the lowest. Everybody gets that number. Then the next player rolls 4d6 and drops the lowest, everybody gets that number, repeat until you have 6 ability scores.

If the stats are not heroic, and the DM approves, give it another go, the same way. Fair for all, frequently MUCH better than point buy, and everyone is involved.

Sample everybody's luck, and no one gets a better launch from the pad...

BTW, Otto was a long time resident on the WotC boards. Does he drop by here?

Telonius
2010-04-11, 08:38 PM
To the build...

The best you're probably going to be able to get out of that, minus Tome of Battle, is a Sacred Fist. Multiclass over to Cleric ASAP and start taking the prerequisites. Charisma really isn't completely crucial to a Cleric build if you have Nightsticks available. (And in my experience if you don't have nightsticks available, Divine Metamagic is probably either nerfed or banned anyway - in which case it's really only useful for turning undead. Not a big loss.).

Another kind of nonstandard option would be to take some levels in Scout. With the ranged weaponry, your Dex score will actually do you some amount of good, and the bonus speed synergizes somewhat. The levels of Monk also qualifies you for a special item (assuming it's allowed) - the Sparring Dummy of the Master. It's a high-ticket item and originally published in 3.0, so it might not be available (and if it is you can't afford it now). But it allows people with Monk levels to take a 10-foot adjustment instead of a 5-foot adjustment. There is a lot about that for a Scout to like.

Keld Denar
2010-04-11, 08:49 PM
Otto doesn't post around here under that name, unless he posts under a different nickname. I do remember him from a few years ago over on CharOp though.

Another build option would be to go Monk3/Duskblade3/UrPriest2/SacredFist10/X2. On one side, UrPriest is kinda cheezey, but on the other, you are dumbing it down with Monkyness.

This would get you the ability to DMM Persist Righteous Might and Divine Power to be a total melee badass while channeling Harm through your melee attacks.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-11, 09:34 PM
Otto doesn't post around here under that name, unless he posts under a different nickname. I do remember him from a few years ago over on CharOp though.

Another build option would be to go Monk3/Duskblade3/UrPriest2/SacredFist10/X2. On one side, UrPriest is kinda cheezey, but on the other, you are dumbing it down with Monkyness.

This would get you the ability to DMM Persist Righteous Might and Divine Power to be a total melee badass while channeling Harm through your melee attacks.

I think Magic9Mushroom has the most epic usage of a monk though. Gets double (or is it triple?) 9's, with beholder mage and tainted scholar.

Saintheart
2010-04-11, 10:00 PM
Divine metamagic works off of turn attempts. Divine metamagic is very, very good.

Specifically, and just expanding upon it slightly, Divine Metamagic is insanely good because it basically lectures a character as follows:

"So, you're a cleric? Okay. Pick a metamagic feat. In order to apply that metamagic feat to your spells, expend turn/rebuke undead attempts instead of higher-level spell slots, which wizards or sorcerers are stuck with. What? ... Yes, I said turn attempts. No, you don't need to know fifth-level spells to apply Quicken Spell to a first level spell. All you need is 4 turn attempts, and since you get 3 of those when you first admit "There is no God but Kord/Allah/Cthulhu/Peewee Herman", you only need a CHA of 12 or so to break the game by casting two spells in a round rather than one."

And that's even before you go anywhere near Persist Spell. DMM is one of the foundation stones for CoDzilla.

Leon
2010-04-11, 10:06 PM
5 charisma? Holy crap. In my opinion that's not even worth playing.

Ive had a PC in one of my games that was Int 5, that was a interesting one.

Spoke only his native tongue and the next lowest Int PC (Int 8) had to make Int checks to work out the gist of what he was saying since they shared the root language.

Optimystik
2010-04-11, 10:10 PM
Actually I show them my stats and they tell me to reroll if they're not high enough. With the type of adventures we go on, without high stats you'll be dead, fast. Or you'll end up being a fifth wheel that is hardly helpful to the rest of the group because they all have high stats.

Why roll at all then? Sounds like you'd all be better off with point buy.


Divine metamagic works off of turn attempts. Divine metamagic is very, very good.

Extra Turning + Nightsticks.
DMM is great, but so is being SAD.


I think Magic9Mushroom has the most epic usage of a monk though. Gets double (or is it triple?) 9's, with beholder mage and tainted scholar.

Sure, as long as you define "epic usage" as "should never be used, ever."

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-12, 12:55 AM
Hi TheYoungOne,

I have two suggestions for you, depending on whether you have more spellcasters or non-spellcasters in the group.

1. In a group that already has spellcasters
Here, your idea of a rogue-ish monk could be done like this:
- try to convince your DM to exchange STR and INT, and get stunning fist as bonus feat instead. Stunning also gets you more sneaks later, and the higher INT gives more skill points while STR is not that important for monk damage.
- multiclass into ranger (TWF route) gaining 2 levels. Then take the assassin prestige class from then on (maybe finishing off with some other sneak attack class in levels 16-20). At level 6, you then have 3 unarmed strikes per round (4 at level 8) and can put stun, sneak, poison and death attack all into one strike.
- this means, though, you have to be/become evil
- maybe instead of dodge take ability focus (stunning fist, +2 DC) improved initiative, then improved natural attack at level 6.
- for the 3,000 gp, you could get for now a gauntlet +1 (stunning fists can be delivered with those), plus masterwork tools and a masterwork crossbow.
Later, ki straps and monk's belt asap
- and you could get more self-buffing variety with UMD...:smallwink:

2. In a group with no/no divine spellcasters
The roguish element may be had here with an ur-priest build
- suggestions for stat and feat exchanges as well as items as above (only get one of the prereq feats for ur-priest instead of dodge. If the DM does not allow this, just enter ur-priest later).
- then overall monk 4/any ur-priest prereq-fulfilling class1/ur-priest1/sacred fist10/fill the rest with ur-priest/rogue afterwards.
- again, you'll need to be evil

For a non-evil roguish monk, I'd second the ascetic rogue route you suggested, but maybe you find interest in the drunken master prestige class in the complete warrior handbook.
Ah, and do not forget to add your monk speed bonus to your climb speed (unlike the barbarian's land speed bonus, the monk speed bonus is added to all movement modes).

- Giacomo

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-12, 01:07 AM
- and you could get more self-buffing variety with UMD...:smallwink:



Cha: 5 -3

Now, I may not be an expert, but it seems to me that having a stat mod that would require 3 levels worth of skill ranks to offset the charisma penalty is less than conducive to a UMD concept.

Now, if there were retraining and a level of rogue in there (allowing for it to be a class skill), it would go from being an abysmally horrible idea to merely a subpar idea. After all, at that point, with ranks, you could actually have a
+4 mod by level 4.

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-12, 06:57 AM
UMD is an assassin class skill. So it could be raised to a +9 mod by level 7 (10 ranks, -3CHR, +2 MW item).

Quite useful, but depends on magic item availability in the campaign.

- Giacomo

Leon
2010-04-12, 07:42 AM
Sir Giacomo, Patron Saint of Monks.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-12, 09:19 AM
A key substitution for Monks is the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21): trade evasion at level 2 for the ability to become invisible for a full round, useable every 3 rounds. See if you can retrofit that into your build.

Doc Roc
2010-04-12, 11:08 AM
I can't currently get to the books to look all this up, but I really like the Monk/Psychic Warrior build, especially with Tashlatora.

And who knows, Since the PC's just got to lvl 3, maybe the DM will let me swap the Monk 3 :smallbiggrin:

God bless and good luck. I really recommend it, from personal experience. I've played unoptimized monks, myself, once or twice. I don't talk about the bad old days.

As for most epic use of monk, my favorite involves infinite power points.

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-12, 12:56 PM
I'm not sure...(do not have the rules nearby)
Guess there are two major problems with the tashalatora feat approach and monk2/psi warrior 18

1. This feat is highly campaign-specific (Eberon)
2. You need two feats for it (including the monastic training feat). With just 2 monk levels and no human race, flaws are necessary (in particular since weapon finesse already included). Again, highly DM-dependant.

With psionics possible, monk11/psionic fist 9(prestige class) may be better, plus with a more "rogue-ish" element (more skill points and stealth).

- Giacomo

Kylarra
2010-04-12, 01:02 PM
I'm not sure...
Guess there are two major problems with the tashalatora feat approach and monk2/psi warrior 18

1. This feat is highly campaign-specific (Eberon)
2. You need two feats for it (including the monastic training feat). With just 2 monk levels and no human race, flaws are needed (in particular since weapon finesse is needed here). Again, highly DM-dependabt.

With psionics possible, monk11/psionic fist 9(prestige class) may be better, plus with a more "rogue-ish" element (more skill points and stealth).

- GiacomoMonastic training can be taken as a monk bonus feat for 1st, 2nd or 6th level.

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-12, 01:14 PM
Monastic training can be taken as a monk bonus feat for 1st, 2nd or 6th level.

then you probably lose the stunning fist feat at level 1, since monastic training at level 2 would be too late as prereq. Hm, difficult choice....

- Giacomo

Kylarra
2010-04-12, 01:17 PM
then you probably lose the stunning fist feat at level 1, since monastic training at level 2 would be too late as prereq. Hm, difficult choice....

- GiacomoTashalatora can't be taken until level 3ish anyway. It requires 5ranks in 2 skills.

Actually, looking at the stats in question, they'd need to go:

PsyWar1/Monk2/PsyWarX in order to meet prereqs with a minimal fuss.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-12, 01:23 PM
I'm not sure...(do not have the rules nearby)
Guess there are two major problems with the tashalatora feat approach and monk2/psi warrior 18

1. This feat is highly campaign-specific (Eberon)
2. You need two feats for it (including the monastic training feat). With just 2 monk levels and no human race, flaws are necessary (in particular since weapon finesse already included). Again, highly DM-dependant.

With psionics possible, monk11/psionic fist 9(prestige class) may be better, plus with a more "rogue-ish" element (more skill points and stealth).

- Giacomo

As mentioned, Monastic Training can be a monk bonus feat. 2 levels of Monk, take it at level 1 or 2, and at 3rd level, take Psychic Warrior 1 and use your level 3 feat for Talashatora. No flaws involved.

And as for 'highly campaign-specific'...it's in an Ebberon supplement, and that's the only campaign-specific thing about it. Neither Monk nor Psychic Warrior are in any way specific to Ebberon, the way Red Wizard or Shadow Weave Adept are specific to Faerun. Even the fluff says 'You have learned how to integrate martial arts and psionic powers'.

EDIT: Forgot the Skill requirements. So, PsyWar 1/Monk 2 meets all prerequisites, since you pick your class before you pick your 3rd HD feat.

Keld Denar
2010-04-12, 03:24 PM
The only problem with a dex based Tashalatoran is that the main power you use as a Tashalatoran is EXPANSION, which decreases your dex as your size increases. That means that your attack bonus will go DOWN by 2 points when you expand, instead of normally staying the same (-1 size penalty, but +1 from the Str bonus). This is doubled when you hit ML8 and can augement.

I guess you could built without Expansion, but thats giving up the main damage boost behind the whole Tashalatoran premise.

Eldariel
2010-04-12, 03:28 PM
The only problem with a dex based Tashalatoran is that the main power you use as a Tashalatoran is EXPANSION, which decreases your dex as your size increases. That means that your attack bonus will go DOWN by 2 points when you expand, instead of normally staying the same (-1 size penalty, but +1 from the Str bonus). This is doubled when you hit ML8 and can augement.

I guess you could built without Expansion, but thats giving up the main damage boost behind the whole Tashalatoran premise.

He could also just switch to Str-focus; that's the whole point of the Psy War-build, you can use Str-base efficiently without having that high stats.

TheYoungOne
2010-04-12, 05:09 PM
My DM has graciously allowed me to switch from Monk 3 to a Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 1.
From there on, I'll try and follow some of the guidelines here :smallbiggrin:.
One thing that I noticed about the latest posts: They seem to be based around me creating a new character (taking flaws, rearranging classes and so forth).
The actual point was that I was taking over a pre made character, which another Player had quit playing.
Anyways, from here on out, it'll be smooth sailing :smallwink:*

*There isn't really a focus on min maxing in our group. We focus more on the characters being realistic :smalltongue:

I'd like to use this post to deliver my gratitude to you all, who helped me in realising how to save the character.

P.S: Sir Giacomo, I'd like to thank you for your work with monks on this forum. It's what made me agree to try the pre-made monk, it being my first time playing a monk.

Thanks all.

Eldariel
2010-04-12, 09:18 PM
Well, the reason people suggest switching the feats around and such is, it simply suits the future path suggested better; like Tashalatora requires Monastic Training so it kinda sucks if you have to wait many levels to get it, and if your focus changes slightly, the previously picked feats may be subject to retraining as they no longer really help you, while you need few other feats to make the (future) character line legal.

Though actually, Improved Grapple becomes fine again with Tashalatora, since Expansion works so perfectly with it. Indeed, Tashalatora Psychic Warriors are some of the best grapplers ever.


But yeah, what I'm saying is that the reason for the suggestions as they are is: you're taking a character over, and one you'll play for many, many levels - it's only reasonable you can customize it a bit to suit your fancy and change some of the initial decisions that don't really impact the feel of the character to better fit what you'll want to play (feats like Dodge don't really do anything but have mechanical effect so switching them for some other feats won't really change anything, but it'll help you make the Psychic Warrior work).

As such, people are trying to list the kinds of minor changes that could suit the character, and work towards the ideas and options listed here. Like, you're still a wise, dexterous Shifter with monastic training but some small changes under the surface customize things a bit.

For example, the "Str-focus" part I mentioned simply meant the option of retraining Weapon Finesse; you'll still have the same stats, but just you'll use Psy War powers to make up for the lower base Str. Though of course, Weapon Finesse doesn't hurt; if it's better, you'll get to use Str to hit anyways. But yeah.

Either way, best of luck and hope you enjoy. Psychic Warriors are a blast and Tashalatora Psy Wars can get some truly impressive damage output if they feel so inclined.

Saint GoH
2010-04-13, 12:51 AM
Tashalatora was yer best bet. Especially with not getting to go back and optimize.

As for whoever started the 5 Cha is an autistic ugly kid, I advise going and re-reading PHB again. Physical attraction is at the bottom of a long list, and it is simply a possibility. I make it a point to play characters with less then 8 Charisma and just be a jerk all the time.

And as I recall, in 3.0 (or maybe earlier?) you couldnt have less then a 3 Cha as a PC. Buuut maybe that was just house-ruled where I come from.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 01:41 AM
People would either flee in terror try to kill on sight. People would have to make fortitude saves not to vomit. :P

What the hell system are you playing, FATAL?


And as I recall, in 3.0 (or maybe earlier?) you couldnt have less then a 3 Cha as a PC. Buuut maybe that was just house-ruled where I come from.

3 in any stat is considered unplayable as a PC by WotC's standards.

Edit:


UMD is an assassin class skill. So it could be raised to a +9 mod by level 7 (10 ranks, -3CHR, +2 MW item).

Quite useful, but depends on magic item availability in the campaign.

- Giacomo

What?


The fact that you are encouraging a UMD focus on a Monk is assassin in and of itself.

THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TELLING HIM TO MULTICLASS INTO ASSASSIN OVER ROGUE TO DO SO IS EVEN WORSE.

Spell list or no, he's actually better off dipping Cleric 2 for this, even with UMD as a cross-class skill (Magic Domain, removes major restrictions on what items he can and can't use).

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-13, 03:38 PM
W
What?


The fact that you are encouraging a UMD focus on a Monk is assassin in and of itself.

THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TELLING HIM TO MULTICLASS INTO ASSASSIN OVER ROGUE TO DO SO IS EVEN WORSE.

Spell list or no, he's actually better off dipping Cleric 2 for this, even with UMD as a cross-class skill (Magic Domain, removes major restrictions on what items he can and can't use).

Confusion sets in. What exactly is worse about going assassin rather than rogue for a roguish monk ? (except the alignment restriction that I pointed out).




P.S: Sir Giacomo, I'd like to thank you for your work with monks on this forum. It's what made me agree to try the pre-made monk, it being my first time playing a monk.

Thanks all.

Well, glad to have helped! A DEX-based monk is definitely fun to play, including with a psionic warrior, I guess.

- Giacomo

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 09:56 PM
Confusion sets in. What exactly is worse about going assassin rather than rogue for a roguish monk ? (except the alignment restriction that I pointed out).

It forces CC ranks in a skill you'll never use. IF it's the spell list you're after, Cleric 2 beats it hands down (same BAB progression, two good saves, Magic Domain, actual spells based on Wis and not Int).

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-14, 02:55 AM
It forces CC ranks in a skill you'll never use. IF it's the spell list you're after, Cleric 2 beats it hands down (same BAB progression, two good saves, Magic Domain, actual spells based on Wis and not Int).

Ah, I see. I never suggested to raise UMD cc in this case (since Assassin has it as a class skill). Cleric with trickery domain may also be an idea to add a roguish flair to the original monk.

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2010-04-14, 03:59 AM
If you want to focus on UMD, don't play a monk: every other class in the PHB is better at using magical devices than monks are.

Conversely, if you want to play a monk, don't do UMD, and leave that to the actual casters or rogues in your party. You simply don't have the points to spare.

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-15, 12:09 AM
If you want to focus on UMD, don't play a monk: every other class in the PHB is better at using magical devices than monks are.

Conversely, if you want to play a monk, don't do UMD, and leave that to the actual casters or rogues in your party. You simply don't have the points to spare.

I guess this can be better discussed in a different thread, if you like.

- Giacomp