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newbie4life
2010-04-11, 05:17 PM
I would like to play dungeons and dragons with my friends, none of whom have ever played before or own any content.

I've spent some time on a couple of websites, and have concluded that we will probably need multiple purchasable items in order to do this. Can anyone give me a list of the minimum items we will need, particularly with the following in mind?

-i want to be able to go from level 1 - level 20, with access to enough prestige classes that nobody will feel like their choice of a base class was doomed to mediocrity.

-i want enough monsters and treasure to keep up reasonable variety for the whole time, but i dont need items that will optimize the characters or rare monsters that will test the limits of a DM's creativity.

-i dont know what the gameboard is supposed to look like, but i intend to simply draw the thing myself in either matlab or excel since it seems like a game that lends itself naturally to computers, rather than hassle with miniatures.

-i dont need much help making a creative storyline, and if i did, i'd probably just drop them into order of the stick :D (which is what got me interested in the first place)

-i am currently referring heavily to the d20srd.org site, and would welcome any other favorite sites of yours.

thank you all in advance!

penbed400
2010-04-11, 05:22 PM
The core books, Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual I should be just fine at getting you started. Supplements are all supplements for a reason.

Mats can look like anything but mine looks like this (http://www.yousephtanha.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/mat4.jpg). If you're talking about what to draw a dungeon on graphing paper does pretty well.

Also for extra sites, The wiki page (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page) is pretty good.

Flickerdart
2010-04-11, 05:26 PM
The SRD (d20srd.org) has most of the Monster Manual, Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, as well as Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods. What isn't on there is stuff like experience needed to level up and the Wealth by Level table. I recommend the Magic Item Compendium supplement if you want cool treasure.

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 05:27 PM
As far as prestige classes go, grab the Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, and Complete Mage. They have loads of prestiges just ripe for picking. Make sure you get 3.5 too, you don't want any of that 4.0 crap :<

If you don't want to buy the completes they have a list of all the classes at Crystal Keep (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php).

JaronK
2010-04-11, 05:31 PM
I strongly recommend Tome of Battle. It makes melees useful at the higher levels.

JaronK

World Eater
2010-04-11, 05:32 PM
All you need is Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.
Just that can last you quite a while.

Eldariel
2010-04-11, 05:34 PM
I'm actually going to suggest against Complete Warrior; it does have a pile of Prestige Classes but as a rule, they suck. There's...3 decent warrior PrCs there (Bear Warrior, Frenzied Berserker, Dervish) and the rest is mostly trash or stuff for other archetypes (though Hulking Hurler and Master Thrower are both great).

So yeah, if you want "Barbarian PrCs"-book, it's a good option, but otherwise I suggest Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords instead. It has lots of nice stuff for melee and awesome mechanics.


And Complete Divine has quite a bit in terms of broken content, though it's definitely got some nice stuff too. For my money though, Complete Champion is probably the better purchase (though the editing is poor, it has nice stuff for all divine archetypes [and others too] and most importantly, has some stuff for others too).

So yeah, Complete Mage, Complete Champion, Tome of Battle. Or just Tome of Battle; Core has couple of decent caster PrCs already and you can just scour online for homebrew ones. But if you don't want to, Completes are nice. And yeah, as mentioned, SRD has most of the DMG/PHB/MM stuff, but you'll probably want the original books if none of you have ever played D&D before; they're good reads especially for getting in mood and some decent campaign creation advice and such (DMG in particular).

dariathalon
2010-04-11, 05:34 PM
The first question to ask yourself is: which edition do I want to play? The majority of currently available material is for 4e. However, if you are interested in playing with what you've found on the d20srd site, you are looking for 3.5e.

Both have advantages and disadvantages. I'm not trying to get you involved in an edition war as it is a decision you ultimately have to make yourself. I just want to make sure you know that the two editions are not compatible. They have some similarities, but don't expect to use a 3.5 players handbook and a 4 dungeonmaster's guide together and expect to make much sense of it.

Either way, I would suggest getting
A copy of the player's handbook, monster manual, and dungeonmaster's guide for whichever edition you want to play. Any other books are just gravy that can be incorporated later if you decide you want more options. Those 3 are enough to get you started.
A few sets of dice.
A handful of character sheets (which can easily be copied out of the books or printed off the wotc website)
I'd suggest getting a map, as I find it easier than using a computer since it is something all players will need to easily see. If you have a projector, it makes it slightly easier, but a map is still a better choice as far as I'm concerned. Mini's are completely optional though. Get yourself a bunch of little tokens and number them or something and it works just as well.

JaronK
2010-04-11, 05:34 PM
I dunno, going core only makes the balance issues a lot worse. You can do without the MM, as almost all of it is in the SRD. I'd rather get a few of the later books that have better made classes (hence my recommendation of ToB since that has three solid and fun base classes... others like Dungeonscape and Tome of Magic only have one).

JaronK

Apollo1776
2010-04-11, 05:37 PM
I'm actually going to suggest against Complete Warrior; it does have a pile of Prestige Classes but as a rule, they suck. There's...3 decent warrior PrCs there (Bear Warrior, Frenzied Berserker, Dervish) and the rest is mostly trash or stuff for other archetypes (though Hulking Hurler and Master Thrower are both great).

Oh c'mon, Master of the Unseen Hand is just a pure badass.

Eternal Drifter
2010-04-11, 05:42 PM
Every adventurer needs the proper equipment. Same with all DMs and Players. You may look up stuff by the SRD out of game, but it will put a real damper on your fun if you continuaously go to the computer for statistics. The Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual are what is needed to get the story started (and you can just turn pages at the table instead of getting up to look it up online), but depending on how your campaign advances, you'll need a couple varioius suplements (I personally use Cityscape, mainly because my Players always come back to the base city, no matter how long it takes or the state of the rubble... Don't ask here.).

Eldariel
2010-04-11, 05:52 PM
Oh c'mon, Master of the Unseen Hand is just a pure badass.

It's also bad, but it's true, the idea is great and it could've made for a great PrC if they didn't **** up with it (like every other damn PrC in the book). And there are other good PrCs, but they aren't Fighter PrCs which means it doesn't really help with the whole "Fighter"-thing.

List of really bad - bad PrCs in Complete Warrior:
- Bladesinger (****ty gish PrC)
- Darkhunter (yeah, you need 10 more levels of Death Attack for it to not be ****ty, and it doesn't really give you anything special)
- Darkwood Stalker (if you only ever fight Orcs, it's alright, but most campaigns? Yeah, pass)
- Eye of Gruumsh (ok, so not terribad, but still bleh)
- Gnome Giant-Slayer (see Blade Bravo for this done right)
- Hunter of the Dead (ok, so their existence means that Ghosts can be perma-killed but that's about the extent of their influence; the spell list is yawn, their abilities are meh, etc.)
- Invisible Blade (great idea but it has a dozen pointless prerequisites and Free Action Feint isn't nearly that cool when it's only once-per-round and only lasts for one attack meaning you still can't full attack SA with Feint; minor improvement over Improved Feint which is almost never worth using)
- Knight of the Chalice (does nothing)
- Knight Protector (does nothing)
- Master of the Unseen Hand (cool, but you still you want casting levels as a caster)
- Mindspy (ditto)
- Occult Slayer (casterslayer that would be better if it actually were any good at y'know, slaying casters)
- Order of the Bow Initiate (epic fail whose primary ability is worse than simple full attack)
- Purple Dragon Knight (What.)
- Rage Mage (cool, except it needs about 3-4 more caster levels to be playable as a gish, especially with medium BAB for a friggin' barbarian)
- Ravager (YAWN?)
- Reaping Mauler (Grappler that loses its class features when it becomes Large? Pass. Oh yeah, and none of those class features are worth having)
- Spellsword (great 1-level dip, loses way too many caster levels to be any good beyond then)
- Tattooed Monk (better than Monk, but still a Monk; though Alter Self-tattoo is at least better than the base class)
- Thayan Knight (more like Thayan Tights)
- War Chanter (or I could, y'know, just play a Bard and not suck)


And many of the remaining ones aren't amazing either and only fit into some niché builds; very few actually benefit real warriors. Indeed, when like half of the classes in book called "Complete Warrior" are spellcasters of some kind, you know it's not gonna deliver.

Basically, the book is full of fine ideas, half-assed execution and does little of what it promises so for a newbie, it's not good value for the money; you need to do a lot of homebrewing and changing to make most of the contents good.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-04-11, 05:57 PM
To maximize quality content with respect to purchase cost, given that you have access to the SRD, I'd preference PHBII>Magic Item Compendium>Spell Compendium>Tome of Battle>Complete Mage

There are many other great books, but with limited funds you probably don't need more. In fact, the SRD gives you almost everything you need except WBL, experience per level, and the CR/XP table. There is an EL XP calculator around here somewhere (and you'll want to fudge the numbers anyway, as the CR system is borked), experience per level is just the simple [this level] * 1000 XP to next level, and I believe Crystal keep has the WBL table?

Stone Heart
2010-04-11, 05:58 PM
I second the using the crystal keep page, it got my group started, but its really a great thing when you have your own book, so its a good way to start. As said before the PHB, monster manual and dungeon master guide are vital, and I'd suggest maybe something like the race books, because my group enjoys playing as nontraditional races more, such as Warforged(*looks at avvy* and Minotaurs.

Kaun
2010-04-11, 06:31 PM
Dont worry about all the extra junk till you have got some game time under your belt.

It will just confuse things.

The three core books is all you need.

Melayl
2010-04-11, 07:31 PM
When you do start looking beyond the Core Three (Core Four, including the Expanded Psionics Handbook), the Homebrew section of this forum has a whole ton of neat and useful stuff.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-04-11, 07:42 PM
Tome of Battle is worth getting just for Bloodstorm Blade. Badass warrior that fights by throwing Greataxes? HELL YES!

But yeah, I'd suggest sticking to Core until you get the rules down. I started in the same boat as you, and trust me when I say that despite how well you think you know the rules, how many times you read through the SRD (and books, when you get them), you will make mistakes, and adding more books will only worsen it. It took a whole half a campaign for me to convince my group maneuver levels work like spell levels, and that 'Warblade 7' doesn't mean you can use it at 7th level.

Hawk7915
2010-04-11, 08:03 PM
I'd suggest just core for starters as well. You could be sneaky and just use the SRD, but it's really nice to have a player's handbook for your group to squabble over at level-up time and the DM's guide has some useful information for a first-time DM that you can't find on the SRD. You can live without the Monster Manual (although you don't get to flay their minds with a mindflayer if you do that); I find looking those monsters up on the SRD is faster anyways. Your mileage may vary, especially if you don't have a lap top or other quick, easy way to get online at the gaming table.

After those two (three) books, I would recommend grabbing Magic Item Compendium (I don't have one yet, and it makes me sad inside) and Player's Handbook 2 (some good spells, some good feats, lots of ACF's for all core and complete classes, a "real" tank, another trapfinder option, and a premade Gish). After that, the books you want will probably depend on player tastes. . .

- If a few members of your group love casters, you could (carefully) go grab Complete Mage (reserve feats!), Complete Divine, and Complete Arcane, as well as The Spell Compendium.

- If you have some really talented casters and the meleers feel left out, go get Tome of Battle. Tome of Battle is a ton of fun, is basically the only way to make a compelling and challenging melee boss as the DM, and is guaranteed to make your sword-loving players happy, but if your group seems to be on the lower end of the powerscale (no one plays clerics, druid doesn't take natural spell, wizards all cast fireball) it can be a little over the top, power-wise.

- If your players have a love of sneaky types, and want more options than just the Rogue and Beguiler, grab Dungeonscape, Complete Scoundrel, and Complete Adventurer.

- If you as a DM want more resources, start questing for additional Monster Manuals and stuff like the settings books (Sandstorm, Stormwrack, etc).

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-13, 10:07 AM
You might find this site useful: http://shadowsystems.laurencemartin.org/DnD/

Zherog
2010-04-13, 11:29 AM
The SRD (d20srd.org) has most of the Monster Manual, Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, as well as Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods.

I'm gonna pick nits. Unearthed Arcana is not in the SRD, though it is available on the site you linked (because it was designated as Open Game Content by WotC). The SRD is a series of text files published by WotC that includes a license on how the info in those text files can be used, which is how sites such as d20srd.org and SystemReferenceDocuments.org (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/home.html) can "publish" the files online.

*

Anyway... what you need in order to play the game:

At least one copy of the PHB and DMG. While you only need one, having two or more PHBs would be helpful.
Dice. Everybody at the table should have the following as a minimum to start out:
1 d20
2 d8
5 (or more) d6
1-2 d4
2 d10
1 d12

You'll want more, but that should get you started and give everybody enough dice for a few levels of play.
Some form of battlemat and some form of representation for characters and foes. Doesn't need to be a fancy vinyl mat and pewter minis - your idea of using spreadsheets is perfectly fine. But you'll want something.
Pencils and scrap paper.


That should get you started.

UglyPanda
2010-04-13, 11:36 AM
If none of you have played before, I'm going to suggest nobody buy anything yet. You do not want to plan this whole big epic adventure if you're going to stumble* over the rules and you don't want to spend money on books if you're not going to use them.

Just do a quick adventure (Only a few sessions long, no more) with pre-generated (Or pre-made) characters using the SRD only. If you like what you're doing, then buy something and start a new adventure with characters you made yourselves. If it isn't your thing, then either: Find a different game; Sit in on the game of a veteran player in order to get tips; Or just don't play at all.

*I'm not saying that your group isn't capable of learning the rules, it's just that you are going to forget a bunch of them. Even veteran players don't know all of the rules or how they interact with other rules.

Yora
2010-04-13, 11:51 AM
I dunno, going core only makes the balance issues a lot worse. You can do without the MM, as almost all of it is in the SRD. I'd rather get a few of the later books that have better made classes (hence my recommendation of ToB since that has three solid and fun base classes... others like Dungeonscape and Tome of Magic only have one).
But you can make any judgement about balance only if you allready know the game very well. Someone who's new to the game wouldn't have any idea what to do with additional books.

I say one single copy of the Player's Handbook and a single copy of the Dungeon Master's Guide for the whole group. A Monster Manual 1 is also nice to have, but ALL the information you need from it is free online. Once the player's know the basics of the game, they can look up all the options for leveling and equiping their characters online as well.

There are many very good additional books, but also many rather bad ones. But the biggest problem is that there are a lot of them! For new groups, I really recommend going with PHB and DMG only and only starting to look for more options after everyone really knows what the core rules have to offer.

HenryHankovitch
2010-04-13, 01:54 PM
A sample run with pre-gen characters in a pre-gen adventure isn't a bad idea at all. If you (the DM) have a laptop with access to the online SRDs at the table, that should cover things well enough. I am a huge fan of "try before you buy." Similarly, there is a 4th edition starter kit available for less than $20, which includes a (minimal) rulebook, dice, some map tiles, and pre-gen adventures.

While you don't NEED a map grid or miniatures, having some sort of on-table representation of the party is helpful, though it's easy enough to loosey-goosey with tokens and scratch paper (or none at all). When your players start throwing around area-of-effect spells and the like, it's useful for everyone at the table to see who is where.

Now, I'm going to disagree with the crowd here--if you scan the topic list in this forum, it should be apparent that this is the "3.5 Edition Powergaming Board"--and say you should seriously consider 4th Edition. You can have fun playing either one; I certainly have. But 4E is simply a better game in most respects.

Again, a token scan of the board here will reveal the universal agreement that 3E in all its forms is fundamentally unbalanced, and requires extensive use of houseruling and non-core books to compensate. Now, the problem isn't so stark for the first several levels; and the fact that your friends are also noobs will help you, since they'll be less likely to make game-breaking choices or go for uberbuilds. Novice wizards tend to nerf themselves. :) That said, the problem is there, and always will be: the spellcasters have access to literally every tool and ability in the box, the other classes do not.

3E also suffers from being built out of several completely different game mechanisms mashed awkwardly together, each of which can be mechanically complicated and obtuse. Having a cleric Turn Undead, or a fighter try to disarm someone, WILL send you back to the rulebook as you try to figure out what you're doing. Several times.

4E is better balanced, it has a more unified and simplified rules system. It's easier to DM; the tools for creating encounters, giving out XP and treasure rewards and the like are more intuitive and useful. Especially if you're sticking to three core books, it's a far better system out of the box. Lots of people in the Interwebs will bitch about it; most of them are trolling you.

Additionally, 4E is still in print, which means (especially if you go for the used/dings-and-scratches books) it can actually be cheaper than the out-of-print markup currently on 3.5 books.

mackejn
2010-04-13, 02:25 PM
If you have no experience with tabletop rpg's, I highly reccomend 4e. It is a lot easier to jump into, and your players can get a LOT of content just with PHB and the character builder. It's $10 to get full access to everything in the Char builder.

Vitruviansquid
2010-04-13, 02:52 PM
If you guys are interested in playing DnD, I find it hard to imagine that none of you know anyone who plays/played DnD (unless, of course, you guys are the guys in the Allegory of the Cave, in which case you'd just be playing a shadow imitation of DnD anyways).

Go sit in on a game or try a game with someone who already plays the game. This will save you some cash if you end up not liking the game, but more importantly, it will show you a game "done right" before you try it yourself. One of the problems with pen and paper RPG's is if your first DM sucks, you're not going to get a fair view of everything the game can do for you. Personally, I picked up DnD twice and the first time it just didn't "click."

In any case, regarding whether to play the 3.5 game or the 4.0 game, it's probably a lot easier to get the materials required for a 4.0 game, but a lot of people (as you can see) prefer 3.5. They're really quite different.