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Scorpions__
2010-04-11, 08:03 PM
What all changes when an Incarnate reaches 20th-level? Just their type for determining how things effect them?






DM[F]R

Gralamin
2010-04-11, 08:28 PM
What all changes when an Incarnate reaches 20th-level? Just their type for determining how things effect them?






DM[F]R

Do you mean Perfect meldshaper, or true incarnation?
Perfect Meldsahper lets you max all soulmelds. This is obviously a nice capstone.
True incarnation - Only states it changes your type. So that should be all it changes.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-12, 11:36 AM
What all changes when an Incarnate reaches 20th-level? Just their type for determining how things effect them?


DM[F]R

Same thing that happens to Monks: They become outsiders (though they gain the Augmented X subtype, where X is their previous type).


Really, the only thing that could possibly change is their Con score. But that requires them to be Undead prior to gaining their 20th level, and Incarnum as a whole doesn't exactly mesh well with the Undead type.

Optimystik
2010-04-12, 11:44 AM
Same thing that happens to Monks: They become outsiders (though they gain the Augmented X subtype, where X is their previous type).

Not quite - Incarnates, unlike Monks, actually become Outsiders rather than just being treated like them. This means, among other things, that they should gain full BAB and d8 Hit Dice at the capstone.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-12, 12:00 PM
Not quite - Incarnates, unlike Monks, actually become Outsiders rather than just being treated like them. This means, among other things, that they should gain full BAB and d8 Hit Dice at the capstone.

:smalleek:



:smallbiggrin:



Though I doubt the intent, it does make the class a lot better.

Optimystik
2010-04-12, 12:02 PM
Did I just earn a mention in your handbook? :smallwink:

No need! I accept internet cookies in lieu of credit.

Douglas
2010-04-12, 12:13 PM
Not quite - Incarnates, unlike Monks, actually become Outsiders rather than just being treated like them. This means, among other things, that they should gain full BAB and d8 Hit Dice at the capstone.
That only applies to racial hit dice, not hit dice from class levels.

Glimbur
2010-04-12, 12:14 PM
Not quite - Incarnates, unlike Monks, actually become Outsiders rather than just being treated like them. This means, among other things, that they should gain full BAB and d8 Hit Dice at the capstone.

Shouldn't that only apply to racial HD, not class levels?

They should get proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, and darkvision, and other features of the Outsider type though.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-12, 12:18 PM
That only applies to racial hit dice, not hit dice from class levels.

If the DM rules that becoming Undead affects class HD, then the True Incarnation should affect class HD at the very least. BAB is stretching it a little, but not beyond the interpretation. Saves? Sure, why the hell not. Reflex doesn't matter all that much. Skill points? Likely to get the book thrown. But still within range of the RAW.


So far, there is some precedence for a class feature changing your HD or BAB. Divine Power, and Dread Necromancer's Lich Transformation, respectively. It isn't that far of a stretch, but it's very unlikely to fly if the DM still believes that HD and BAB are a balancing point.


Did I just earn a mention in your handbook?

No need! I accept internet cookies in lieu of credit.

I'll let them know about this. Once they pick it apart, I'll mention it in the Class Features section. This is a wonderful find if it works.

Radar
2010-04-12, 12:43 PM
Not quite - Incarnates, unlike Monks, actually become Outsiders rather than just being treated like them. This means, among other things, that they should gain full BAB and d8 Hit Dice at the capstone.
As allways, it affects only Outsider HD. It doesn't affect class levels. I'm not sure about weapon proficiencies tough.

edit: and got ninja'ed...

Glimbur
2010-04-12, 03:17 PM
It looks like you should get Outsider traits:

Traits
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual natureóits soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, donít work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
* Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

The weapon proficiencies are nice, the darkvision is ok, the lack of eating or sleeping is pretty good. The difficulty of resurrection is unfortunate, but as you're level 20 you should have a cleric who can True Res so it's not a huge deal.

I do have a really weird question though. As a humanoid, you were allowed to trade in your one racial hit die for a class level. When you turn in to an Outsider, do you get an outsider hit die? Probably not, because in the section on improving monsters it states that anyone with only one RHD can trade it in for a class level.

Scorpions__
2010-04-12, 04:24 PM
It looks like you should get Outsider traits:

The weapon proficiencies are nice, the darkvision is ok, the lack of eating or sleeping is pretty good. The difficulty of resurrection is unfortunate, but as you're level 20 you should have a cleric who can True Res so it's not a huge deal.

I do have a really weird question though. As a humanoid, you were allowed to trade in your one racial hit die for a class level. When you turn in to an Outsider, do you get an outsider hit die? Probably not, because in the section on improving monsters it states that anyone with only one RHD can trade it in for a class level.


You have the (native) subtype though, so you can be ressurected normally, and you need to breath, eat, and sleep.





DM[F]R

FishAreWet
2010-04-12, 04:32 PM
Do elves who take Otherworldly get good saves and full BAB and 8 skills with every HD? No, they do not, because that would be stupid. And saying "well it makes sense to get BAB and maybe saves but skills is silly!" ...all of those are traits of the HD! there is NO circumstance where you would only get some of the traits. Undead are the EXCEPTION to this rule.

Glimbur's quote is correct. That is all you get.

Flickerdart
2010-04-12, 04:36 PM
Then you pay a Bard to describe yourself in Mountain Plate, and poof! Proficiency.

Glimbur
2010-04-12, 05:14 PM
You have the (native) subtype though, so you can be ressurected normally, and you need to breath, eat, and sleep.

This particular class feature doesn't give the [native] subtype, just the outsider type and the correct alignment subtype. This is a double edged sword, as I discussed earlier.

Optimystik
2010-04-12, 05:22 PM
Undead are the EXCEPTION to this rule.

Out of curiosity; why? What makes them the exception?

Godskook
2010-04-12, 05:28 PM
Out of curiosity; why? What makes them the exception?

/me kills Optimystik, raises his corpse, and as he stands before /me, I state "That's why!" And now he understands.

Optimystik
2010-04-12, 05:30 PM
/me kills Optimystik, raises his corpse, and as he stands before /me, I state "That's why!" And now he understands.

Well gosh, it doesn't get much clearer than that. :smalltongue:

FishAreWet
2010-04-12, 05:56 PM
Out of curiosity; why? What makes them the exception?Because you only gain the types on racial HD. Except Undead type changes usually explicitly call out all hit die.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-04-12, 08:38 PM
If the DM rules that becoming Undead affects class HD, then the True Incarnation should affect class HD at the very least.
Fish or wet put it succinctly. But for those who need it, here’s the detailed answer, complete with rules citation.


Hit Dice and Hit Points: Most templates do not change the number of Hit Dice a monster has, but some do. Some templates change the size of a creature’s Hit Dice (usually by changing the creature type). A few templates change previously acquired Hit Dice, and continue to change Hit Dice gained with class levels, but most templates that change Hit Dice change only the creature’s original HD and leave class Hit Dice unchanged.

If the Hit Dice entry in a template description is missing, Hit Dice and hit points do not change unless the creature’s Constitution modifier changes.
(emphasis mine)

Most free-willed undead templates explicitly change hit dice from class levels. The reason for this is likely as compensation for losing the Con modifier to hit points. This is another example of specific rules trumping general.

Note, also, that, unless otherwise noted, the only HD-linked effect that changes as a result of this is hit points. A 10th level fighter vampire, for example, retains his +10 BAB, +8 base Fort and +3 base Will and Ref, and 2 skill points per level and buys ranks as a Fighter.

Scorpions__
2010-04-12, 09:09 PM
So, I guess I'm still with Glimbur at this point? Everyone?





DM[F]R

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-12, 09:13 PM
So, I guess I'm still with Glimbur at this point? Everyone?

RAW, the most that would change is your Darkvision and need to breathe (and your ability to return to life). The BAB and HD changes are wishful thinking (sorry Optimystik).


Still, you are harder to kill off for good while not on your native plane by RAW.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-04-12, 10:06 PM
RAW, the most that would change is your Darkvision and need to breathe (and your ability to return to life). The BAB and HD changes are wishful thinking (sorry Optimystik).
FAQ sets the precedent that type-based proficiencies that do not specify “…or by character class” are gained with type changes as well. This is the case with outsiders.


Still, you are harder to kill off for good while not on your native plane by RAW.
Where in RAW?

I’ve heard that Fiendish Codex or somesuch establishes this thing about fiends killed on the material plane re-forming on their native plane. But this is not provided for in the SRD for all outsiders. This is all I can find that the SRD has to say about outsider death:


Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.

It does not provide any exceptions to perma-death based on where the death happened.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 12:43 AM
Where in RAW?

Iíve heard that Fiendish Codex or somesuch establishes this thing about fiends killed on the material plane re-forming on their native plane. But this is not provided for in the SRD for all outsiders. This is all I can find that the SRD has to say about outsider death

FC1 and FC2 both state that at the very least, Evil-outsiders return to life after a set amount of time if they were not slain on their native plane (99 years for a Baatezu, random for any Demon).


There's usually a demotion involved, so it can be equated to a level loss for a PC. Assuming the game designers are not total screw ups, which I have my doubts about, a similar clause exists for non-Evil outsiders. If not, there's another problem at hand...

Milskidasith
2010-04-13, 12:44 AM
FC1 and FC2 both state that at the very least, Evil-outsiders return to life after a set amount of time if they were not slain on their native plane (99 years for a Baatezu, random for any Demon).


There's usually a demotion involved, so it can be equated to a level loss for a PC. Assuming the game designers are not total screw ups, which I have my doubts about, a similar clause exists for non-Evil outsiders. If not, there's another problem at hand...

Even if a similar clause does exist for non evil outsiders, the obvious implications is that the "war" between good and evil would essentially be both just sitting in the others plane, because defending your home turf isn't a good idea when you are permanently destroyed on your native plane but if you're trying to kill people that oppose you in their house, you're good as new (or almost so) in 99 years.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 01:20 AM
Even if a similar clause does exist for non evil outsiders, the obvious implications is that the "war" between good and evil would essentially be both just sitting in the others plane, because defending your home turf isn't a good idea when you are permanently destroyed on your native plane but if you're trying to kill people that oppose you in their house, you're good as new (or almost so) in 99 years.

If it doesn't, it means evil has infinite sources and will inevitably win (attrition is a horrible way to fight if the enemy never runs out of resources).

Optimystik
2010-04-13, 06:26 AM
RAW, the most that would change is your Darkvision and need to breathe (and your ability to return to life). The BAB and HD changes are wishful thinking (sorry Optimystik)/

Ah well, it was worth a shot :smalltongue:


Still, you are harder to kill off for good while not on your native plane by RAW.

I'd be careful invoking that rule, since it means you respawn in Hell/the Abyss. You might fit right in and all, but you also might attract some very unwanted attention.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-04-13, 08:53 AM
FC1 and FC2 both state that at the very least, Evil-outsiders return to life after a set amount of time if they were not slain on their native plane (99 years for a Baatezu, random for any Demon).
Ninety-nine years, huh? Well, that’s certainly a long time for a PC to be out of things. Not really much comfort.


If it doesn't, it means evil has infinite sources and will inevitably win (attrition is a horrible way to fight if the enemy never runs out of resources).
Not really. Most of those infinite resources are spent fighting other evil in the Blood War. Evil won’t win in the fight against Good, simply because Evil isn’t fighting Good.