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Magic Myrmidon
2010-04-12, 04:47 PM
I started my first campaign about two days ago, when one of my players asked to be a barbarian bugbear, I hesitated, but I allowed it. I also misinterpreted LA, and didn't realize bugbears start with 3 levels of humanoid. As such, he overpowered all of the other characters, and killed everything I threw at them.

I was confused until reviewing the LA rules... and now I'm regretting allowing him to play it. As such, I was going to throw a cursed great axe his way, that would be powerful, but change him into a human. However, I'm not sure if there is a spell for something like this. I was thinking a permanent polymorph, but I'm not sure if it covers something like this or act as a curse.

Anyone know if this'd work?

Eternal Drifter
2010-04-12, 04:49 PM
Reincarnation. Druid, 4th level, requires him to perish first. Of course, if you let the dice decide... you could have something much more worse than a bugbear.

PS: Race change here can be undone with Wish.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-12, 04:50 PM
Savage species has rules for using Wish to change races, IIRC, though I seem to recall said rules also being rather lame as-written.

Caphi
2010-04-12, 04:51 PM
Polymorph Any Object. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsPtoR.html#polymorph-any-object) Getting to a duration factor of 9 is trivial.

sofawall
2010-04-12, 04:53 PM
Especially since turning into any medium humanoid is 9 or higher right there.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-04-12, 04:53 PM
True Mind Switch (http://dndsrd.net/psionicPowersGtoP.html#mind-switch-true)

Though why anyone would want a Bugbear brain is beyond me.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-12, 04:56 PM
True Mind Switch (http://dndsrd.net/psionicPowersGtoP.html#mind-switch-true)

Though why anyone would want a Bugbear brain is beyond me.

The brain? No clue. The body, which is what they'd get from that power? It'd certainly beat using your own frail caster body.

Magic Myrmidon
2010-04-12, 05:00 PM
It seems that Polymorph Any Object is perfect. Thanks. :)


Now I just need to figure out a way so that he'll take the axe, and it'll make sense for it to be there... :/

Myou
2010-04-12, 05:02 PM
No, you can't permanently change race with anything published.

And nor should you - you messed up by not reviewing his request properly, an easy mistake to make, so just admit that to him and tell him that you need him to play something weaker, and then have an artifact, reincarnation or other effect change his race.

Your players will be a lot happier if you just admit to mistakes than if you contrive circumstance to rob them of their cool, fun attributes without explaining why.

Magic Myrmidon
2010-04-12, 05:06 PM
That is a good point, Myou. I will definitely warn him that there is something odd about the axe... maybe even tell him OOC. But I will try to make the axe... somewhat worth it. Like, it's a very magical, powerful axe with an extra dice of damage, but it will be cursed.

On the other hand, maybe I'll just boost the other characters to his level. That way, he doesn't lose his stats, but the others gain quite a bit. On the other hand, it kinda takes away from the fun of gradually earning advances if I do that.

Glimbur
2010-04-12, 05:07 PM
you messed up by not reviewing his request properly, an easy mistake to make, so just admit that to him and tell him that you need him to play something weaker, and then have an artifact, reincarnation or other effect change his race.

Your players will be a lot happier if you just admit to mistakes than if you contrive circumstance to rob them of their cool, fun attributes without explaining why.

I agree that you should be up-front with the player as to what you are doing and why.

Caphi
2010-04-12, 05:10 PM
Seconded. You can retcon his race, but don't spring it on him. Explain the problem and he might even come up with another solution that's better for him.

Myou
2010-04-12, 05:11 PM
That is a good point, Myou. I will definitely warn him that there is something odd about the axe... maybe even tell him OOC. But I will try to make the axe... somewhat worth it. Like, it's a very magical, powerful axe with an extra dice of damage, but it will be cursed.

On the other hand, maybe I'll just boost the other characters to his level. That way, he doesn't lose his stats, but the others gain quite a bit. On the other hand, it kinda takes away from the fun of gradually earning advances if I do that.

Ah, that sound like a better idea - give the others some boosts to let them match him, that way no-one loes their fun toys. Make sure he knows why he's not gettig a boost - or is getting a far more minor boost.

It may not feel like earning it, but for the players it stings far less than taking away a lot of his power.

strider24seven
2010-04-12, 05:11 PM
No, you can't permanently change race with anything published.

The suggestions above would like to disagree with you.

My favorites:
1)True Mind Switch- Simply because it's flavorful, not cheese-flavored, and situation dependent. High-level and Psionic, though.
2)Polymorph Any Object- Lower level, but certainly cheese-flavored. Can be combined with True Mind Switch for extra cheesiness.
3)Malevolence/Magic Jar- Awesome flavor, but specific requirements.
4)Reincarnation- Only the potential for cheesiness, but requires a Druid to like/hate you enough for reincarnation.
5)DM fiat- Rule 0 can work wonders here, and can be really cool if you do it right.

Edit: And I suppose that, technically the Necropolitan and Dragonborn of Bahamut templates change the base race.

Myou
2010-04-12, 05:17 PM
The suggestions above would like to disagree with you.

My favorites:
1)True Mind Switch- Simply because it's flavorful, not cheese-flavored, and situation dependent. High-level and Psionic, though.
2)Polymorph Any Object- Lower level, but certainly cheese-flavored. Can be combined with True Mind Switch for extra cheesiness.
3)Malevolence/Magic Jar- Awesome flavor, but specific requirements.
4)Reincarnation- Only the potential for cheesiness, but requires a Druid to like/hate you enough for reincarnation.
5)DM fiat- Rule 0 can work wonders here, and can be really cool if you do it right.

Edit: And I suppose that, technically the Necropolitan and Dragonborn of Bahamut templates change the base race.

As I said, none are permanent. He can just get another casting of the spell/power to switch back. What you mean to say is that there are options that have unlinited duration, but no option is permanent.

And I said there was nothing published - your fifth suggestion is completely unrelated to my post - the OP asked about official options.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-12, 05:19 PM
As I said, none are permanent. He can just get another casting of the spell/power to switch back. What you mean to say is that there are options that have unlinited duration, but no option is permanent.

The odds of him finding a psion that both knows True Mind Switch, is willing to manifest it (big XP cost), AND has a bugbear body is fairly slim.

Myou
2010-04-12, 05:24 PM
The odds of him finding a psion that both knows True Mind Switch, is willing to manifest it (big XP cost), AND has a bugbear body is fairly slim.

And yet he already found one once - because it's already happened to him, to make him want another TMS to undo it. :smallsigh:

You're talking about pure DM fiat in preventing him finding another - which is the only way to make such a change permanent, as I keep saying.

arguskos
2010-04-12, 05:25 PM
On the theory of changing race, my favorite would be a Mindrape to make them THINK they're a Polymorphed something else. :smallwink:

Course, it's not relevant to the issue at hand, but I wanted to include it anyways, cause it made me giggle.

Flickerdart
2010-04-12, 05:32 PM
You could make it a plot hook that at night, the player becomes possessed, and has bitten all the other characters who become were-bugbears (which is what he was, surprise!). They now quest to find a curse for their lycanthropy. :smallbiggrin:

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-04-12, 05:32 PM
As I said, none are permanent. He can just get another casting of the spell/power to switch back. What you mean to say is that there are options that have unlinited duration, but no option is permanent.
Umm, that's getting a bit petty there.

Mind Switch's duration is instantaneous. That's better than permanent, it means there is nothing to dispel. It happened, it's done, it doesn't change. Just because you can reuse the power back doesn't make it less permanent. That's like saying 'Cure Light Wounds' isn't permanent because the target will eventually stub his toe.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-12, 05:33 PM
And yet he already found one once - because it's already happened to him, to make him want another TMS to undo it. :smallsigh:

Technically speaking, the first one would have found him. Bodysnatchers are likely more common than "Sure, you seem like a nice guy, you can have my body." But yeah, I get the idea that with enough effort, the change can get undone. But maybe by the time the effort pays off, the group would have leveled enough that (with the race revert applying the proper rules this time) he wouldn't be overpowered compared to the others.

Myou
2010-04-12, 05:38 PM
Umm, that's getting a bit petty there.

Mind Switch's duration is instantaneous. That's better than permanent, it means there is nothing to dispel. It happened, it's done, it doesn't change. Just because you can reuse the power back doesn't make it less permanent. That's like saying 'Cure Light Wounds' isn't permanent because the target will eventually stub his toe.

Given that none of the solutions presented were permanent I'd tend to disagree. The OP wanted something the player could not undo. No such option exists, all methods can be reversed.


Technically speaking, the first one would have found him. Bodysnatchers are likely more common than "Sure, you seem like a nice guy, you can have my body." But yeah, I get the idea that with enough effort, the change can get undone. But maybe by the time the effort pays off, the group would have leveled enough that (with the race revert applying the proper rules this time) he wouldn't be overpowered compared to the others.

Indeed, but that wasn't the question I answered. :smalltongue:

jiriku
2010-04-12, 05:39 PM
Agreeing with Myou, the wisest course of action is to admit that you made a mistake and created a balance issue between his character and everyone else's character, then work to correct it. If you are loath to simply decree a change of race to something with +0 LA (which is really the cleanest solution), you can offer him the deal that he just stops gaining XP until the other characters match his ECL.

I would not recommend that you try to fix the issue with gear. Assuming that everyone in the party has one class level, he is functionally a 5th-level character in a 1st-level party. Attempting to correct a disparity of that magnitude by over-gearing the lowbies is going to create more problems than it solves.

Taelas
2010-04-12, 05:45 PM
You can just let him stay as powerful as he is at the moment -- in three levels, he's gonna wish he didn't have those racial HDs anymore. Remember, even if you made a mistake and let him be ECL 5 where everyone else is ECL 1 or 2, he has to get enough XP to reach ECL 6 before he gets a level.

Alternatively, you can explain the situation to him and just remove the racial hit dice -- he won't want them later anyway.

Myou
2010-04-12, 05:45 PM
Agreeing with Myou, the wisest course of action is to admit that you made a mistake and created a balance issue between his character and everyone else's character, then work to correct it. If you are loath to simply decree a change of race to something with +0 LA (which is really the cleanest solution), you can offer him the deal that he just stops gaining XP until the other characters match his ECL.

I would not recommend that you try to fix the issue with gear. Assuming that everyone in the party has one class level, he is functionally a 5th-level character in a 1st-level party. Attempting to correct a disparity of that magnitude by over-gearing the lowbies is going to create more problems than it solves.

Very good point, if this guy really is a level 5 amongst level 1s then gear isn't great. I was imagining giving them extra levels/template via some event.

WarKitty
2010-04-12, 05:49 PM
There is another option of course:

Let the other characters change their races to something with similar level adjustments. I'm sure given the chance they could find something that would suit (take the +2 to +4 racial adjustments and adjust up/down as needed and you should have several options)>

DeltaEmil
2010-04-12, 05:53 PM
Tell him that you feel his character is too strong, or stop being the GM. If you need to screw over a player without his consent, then you're just a badwrongandnotfun GM.
Be honest, and cooperate with him to find a way how to nerf his character, without being a jerk and introducing cursed weapons.

taltamir
2010-04-12, 05:53 PM
Reincarnation. Druid, 4th level, requires him to perish first. Of course, if you let the dice decide... you could have something much more worse than a bugbear.

PS: Race change here can be undone with Wish.

or more reincarnations

Jack_Simth
2010-04-12, 05:55 PM
No, you can't permanently change race with anything published.

And nor should you - you messed up by not reviewing his request properly, an easy mistake to make, so just admit that to him and tell him that you need him to play something weaker, and then have an artifact, reincarnation or other effect change his race.

Your players will be a lot happier if you just admit to mistakes than if you contrive circumstance to rob them of their cool, fun attributes without explaining why.Actually, you can. Core, even. It's a roll of 33 or 34 on the Drawback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#drawback) table for cursed items. Theoretically, any item could do it - including a potion of Enlarge Person or Cure Light Wounds.

Myou
2010-04-12, 05:58 PM
Actually, you can. Core, even. It's a roll of 33 or 34 on the Drawback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#drawback) table for cursed items. Theoretically, any item could do it - including a potion of Enlarge Person or Cure Light Wounds.

Ahem, no, that changes his race, but plenty of methods have been listed to keep changing it until he gets back to being a bugbear. Even another cursed item.

Taelas
2010-04-12, 06:02 PM
The fact that another change can change him again does not prevent the first change from being effectively permanent. The second transformation is simply ALSO permanent.

You are arguing semantics at this point.

taltamir
2010-04-12, 06:03 PM
i do agree that if if you made a mistake you should admit it to your players. Just tell him, "sorry I misread those rules, do you want to take the penalties you are supposed to have/reduce your level or do you want to alter your character as if he was a human/some other +0LA race and then we all pretend he was always one...

Heck, if he goes with "half-orc" you could always say he is just a very hairy and gruff and bugbearish looking half-orc. You could make it into a running gag where everyone always calls him a bugbear and he goes "I am a half-orc dammit not a bugbear" (only if the player WANTS to do it that way... if he doesn't then lay off of it)

Or... you could instead give free upgrades to the other players to match and then eliminate LA to all of them... do a "true transformation artifact" that switches them to a new body of choice in a permanent irreversible way (aka, not permanent but instantaneous)... let everyone choose from races of a specific LA and waive the LA for the whole party. (Since LA sucks and is a penalty to wizards). Again it is important that you fess up and made a mistake and the free upgrades are transparent and made to re-balance the party.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-12, 06:03 PM
No, you can't permanently change race with anything published.

And nor should you - you messed up by not reviewing his request properly, an easy mistake to make, so just admit that to him and tell him that you need him to play something weaker, and then have an artifact, reincarnation or other effect change his race.

Your players will be a lot happier if you just admit to mistakes than if you contrive circumstance to rob them of their cool, fun attributes without explaining why.

You're funny. There's a Deck of Many Things in Races of Eberron that permanently changes your race (and that's all it does).

Myou
2010-04-12, 06:09 PM
The fact that another change can change him again does not prevent the first change from being effectively permanent. The second transformation is simply ALSO permanent.

You are arguing semantics at this point.

Permanent is not the same a unlimited duration, it's not semantics, it's the definition.


You're funny. There's a Deck of Many Things in Races of Eberron that permanently changes your race (and that's all it does).

See my endlessly repeated reply to all the posters before you.

The OP has my answer, and arguing about the term 'permanent' is just derailing the thread.

Ciao, guys.

Taelas
2010-04-12, 06:21 PM
Permanent is not the same a unlimited duration, it's not semantics, it's the definition.
You're wrong. That is precisely what permanent means in D&D.

The spell is not called unlimited duration, yet that is the effect.

Here's the definition of Permanent duration:


Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic. Example: secret page.

taltamir
2010-04-12, 06:29 PM
in DnD words do not mean what they mean in the dictionary... thats not news.

Permanent means "unlimited duration but dispellable". Instantaneous means what most people think of when they think of "permanent".

Likewise "always <alignment>" actually means "usually" (they LITERALLY wrote that, they explicitly say that always doesn't mean always)...
Always evil in DnD means: the species or creature in question is always created or born evil (demons and undead), or becomes evil at the moment of transformation (certain undead, certain weres), but may later change their alignment via their choices. Also they might be from a society that is so overwhelmingly evil that practically everyone raised in such a society is evil, but there are extremely rare exceptions, as well as members of that species raised in other societies.

Magic Myrmidon
2010-04-12, 09:08 PM
Gee, now I'm feeling guilty for considering the option of taking away his bugbearyness. :(

Well, I guess that I'll just offer several options to the whole group. Taking away just his hit dice, having him change his race, or giving all of the other players enough levels to match him.

Anyway, thanks for helping me through the thought process, everyone. In retrospect, it is a rather... unfair thing to do.

Although I'll definitely keep the race-changing spells in mind, because it seems like a good basis for a subplot.

Escheton
2010-04-12, 10:54 PM
well you already said there where some encounters where he owned

you probably counted xp as normal.
now take in to account that the rest is lower lvl and thus get more xp for an encounter then he does and retroactively give them a bunch of xp.
ding!
maybe even ding!-almost ding! if you want to get the whole adjustment thing outta the way fast. Or stretch it out over the next few sessions where they get more xp anyways, and need less to lvl btw.
Or better, stretch after the first ding.
well ya get the point

WildPyre
2010-04-12, 11:18 PM
I have to wonder if the player understood the level adjustment a bugbear is supposed to have, and if so what kind of a dink takes advantage of a DM like that?

I'd tell the player in no uncertain terms that you appologise for not understanding what he was doing at first, but it turns out to be abusive. To fix the situation you need to either change him to a race without a level adjustment, or if you're feeling generous you could offer to have him stop gaining XP until the rest of the party has caught up to his power level.

Endarire
2010-04-13, 12:11 AM
Savage Species lets you use a wish to become another race, level adjustment, racial hit dice, and all.

9mm
2010-04-13, 11:04 AM
On the other hand, maybe I'll just boost the other characters to his level. That way, he doesn't lose his stats, but the others gain quite a bit. On the other hand, it kinda takes away from the fun of gradually earning advances if I do that.

THIS, THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES DO THIS INSTEAD.

No player likes getting exculsivly shafted over because of the DM's mistake and while a quick talk can often solve any power problems; singling him out just equals people problems.

also remember he may have mis-read it too, so talk to him first before taking any action in game.

Lysander
2010-04-13, 11:12 AM
There's a spell called "Make Player Fill Out New Character Sheet." The material components are a blank character sheet, and the focus is a copy of a player's guide.

Just talk to the player, give his character a heroic mission related to the campaign it has to go off on (and it becomes an npc) and make him create a brand new character. When the party reaches the bugbear's ECL give him the option of switching back to the bugbear or sticking with the new character.

Gnaeus
2010-04-13, 03:33 PM
i do agree that if if you made a mistake you should admit it to your players. Just tell him, "sorry I misread those rules, do you want to take the penalties you are supposed to have/reduce your level or do you want to alter your character as if he was a human/some other +0LA race and then we all pretend he was always one...

Heck, if he goes with "half-orc" you could always say he is just a very hairy and gruff and bugbearish looking half-orc. You could make it into a running gag where everyone always calls him a bugbear and he goes "I am a half-orc dammit not a bugbear" (only if the player WANTS to do it that way... if he doesn't then lay off of it)

As it happens, Hobgoblin is only a +1 LA (and a WEAK +1 LA at that). He would still be a goblin, still have most of the same modifiers. Make him a Hobgoblin and let him buy off the LA at soonest possible opportunity.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-13, 03:38 PM
Gee, now I'm feeling guilty for considering the option of taking away his bugbearyness. :(

Well, I guess that I'll just offer several options to the whole group. Taking away just his hit dice, having him change his race, or giving all of the other players enough levels to match him.

Anyway, thanks for helping me through the thought process, everyone. In retrospect, it is a rather... unfair thing to do.

Although I'll definitely keep the race-changing spells in mind, because it seems like a good basis for a subplot.

Can you explain how he beat the encounters? Are you sure the extra HD mattered?

JeenLeen
2010-04-13, 03:49 PM
As others have said, do discuss it out-of-character beforehand. Don't just tell him something is funny about an item (the axe) and that using it might have consequences.

Tell him that you need to change his race, and tell him why.

I had--I forget the specifics--but a problem with a character I was running. I think the others players rolled superb ability scores and mine were sub-par, and it was hurting balance. The DM told me he had a way to let my character re-roll his stats, if I wanted (if I rolled worse, I had to keep the re-roll.)
I said I'd take the offer. A game or two later, we encountered a one-charge-at-the-moment artifact that sapped my character and transmuted him in a permanent way.

You can keep surprise and internal consistency in the campaign by not telling him how the change will happen, but do tell him that it will happen ahead of time.

Taelas
2010-04-13, 04:46 PM
I'd tell the player in no uncertain terms that you appologise for not understanding what he was doing at first, but it turns out to be abusive. To fix the situation you need to either change him to a race without a level adjustment, or if you're feeling generous you could offer to have him stop gaining XP until the rest of the party has caught up to his power level.

Why would you stop him from gaining XP? He will need just as many XP as a 6th level character to become a 2nd level barbarian -- assuming he's level 1 now, of course.

Racial HD do not require XP -- they are something you start with -- unless you take the racial "classes" Savage Species came with. Think of it as an additional LA.

If he's a 1st level Bugbear Barbarian, he is ECL 5 -- 1 level of Barbarian, 3 racial HD, and a +1 LA. ECL is HD + LA. He will not become a level 2 Barbarian until he reaches enough XP to make him ECL 6 -- i.e. 15,000 XP. If he doesn't get XP, he won't level at all -- unless you assume for some bizarre reason that he starts with 10,000 XP. There's no reason to do that.

Yes, this makes him extremely strong at level 1, which is the mistake the OP made -- but once the rest of the party hits 6th level, those 3 racial hit dice are gonna be a liability, not a bonus. He is also going to stay at the same level of power while the rest of the party starts catching up.

EDIT: In fact, the rest of the party are gonna hit ECL 6 long before he does. He gets less XP at 1st level than the rest of the party does, yet he starts at the same amount. Really, this is a short-term benefit, long-term extreme loss.

Set
2010-04-13, 05:05 PM
Ahem, no, that changes his race, but plenty of methods have been listed to keep changing it until he gets back to being a bugbear. Even another cursed item.

Ah, but the GM decides if he finds another cursed item with that exact property, and he'll take awhile trying to amass enough money to pay for a Polymorph Any Object back to Bugbear form.

By the time he has that amount of cash, having himself turned into a Bugbear will be one of the *less* effective things he could do with it...

Sure, it's 'reversible,' but it's only 'reversible' in the same way that any other character in the party could spend the exact same amount of cash and have themselves turned into a Bugbear, making it not at all out of whack with everyone else in the game world.

Or just tone him down to an LA+0 version of the Bugbear, with his first 'race level' in Bugbear. Let him become an adult Bugbear over the next couple of levels of 'Bugbear,' and then continue advancing his class afterwards. There's almost no chance at all that his monster class levels in Bugbear are going to be as good as levels in a PC class...

Cicciograna
2010-04-13, 05:09 PM
Don't listen to Myou, he's a Bugbear in the Playground: he's sympathetic with your PC :smalltongue:

Raendyn
2010-04-14, 04:47 AM
A simple polymorphed casted on the axe is ok. the theme here is not to change his race permanenlty... just make him a human until his true power would not be a problem!

cursed axe, moderate trasmutation aura, feint necromancy aura,feint trasmutation. (in case they use detect magic)

spell cast on it : polymorph,magic weapon, (spellcraft dc= unreachable,just say a 4X number if they ask.) make it unavailable to use identify.
MAterial : maybe something better than normal metal ( you downgrade him a lot,thats a small refund)

The theme here is,that the axe is weaking him.BUT, he LOVES it! he does not believe anyone saying him anything bad about his beloved axe, he gets angry if they continue, he refuses to leave it out of his possesion!!!! it is Roleplay here. he can earn ( or loose) tons of RP xp!

alternatively, axe has enervation cased on it! bam! bye bye racial hd . you are a lvl 1 barbarian ECL1 with little better stats!

Your choice m8!

WildPyre
2010-04-14, 05:16 AM
Why would you stop him from gaining XP? He will need just as many XP as a 6th level character to become a 2nd level barbarian -- assuming he's level 1 now, of course.

Racial HD do not require XP -- they are something you start with -- unless you take the racial "classes" Savage Species came with. Think of it as an additional LA.

If he's a 1st level Bugbear Barbarian, he is ECL 5 -- 1 level of Barbarian, 3 racial HD, and a +1 LA. ECL is HD + LA. He will not become a level 2 Barbarian until he reaches enough XP to make him ECL 6 -- i.e. 15,000 XP. If he doesn't get XP, he won't level at all -- unless you assume for some bizarre reason that he starts with 10,000 XP. There's no reason to do that.

Yes, this makes him extremely strong at level 1, which is the mistake the OP made -- but once the rest of the party hits 6th level, those 3 racial hit dice are gonna be a liability, not a bonus. He is also going to stay at the same level of power while the rest of the party starts catching up.

EDIT: In fact, the rest of the party are gonna hit ECL 6 long before he does. He gets less XP at 1st level than the rest of the party does, yet he starts at the same amount. Really, this is a short-term benefit, long-term extreme loss.

This is true, unless the player argues under the same false assumption I made that since he's effective level 6 he should be counted as having xp enough to be that level.

It's a bit of a catch 22 since unless he has the xp to be level 6 he couldn't possibly have the ECL he does now.

I was in that mindset because I often start my games with players over level 1 and don't expect them to start with 0 xp and gain craploads of xp just to go up a level.

So yes, I was working under a false assumption unless he once again jerks over the OP like he did in the first place.


On another part of the topic... yeah I wouldn't punish him if he were a novice player and likely misunderstood the way LA's work... now if it's an experienced player and they were clearly taking advantage of your inexperience... I'd give that a smackdown. :smallwink: