(3.5e) Disarming with Sai question

[HunterOfJello]

I was looking at the disarming rules and got confused by one thing. Maybe someone here can set me straight.

The sai is a special monk weapon that is supposed to be useful at disarming opponents. The SRD says,
With a sai, you get a +4 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).


However, the sai is a light melee/ranged weapon and in the SRD section for Special Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm) it says


Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty."


If you take both the +4 bonus that the sai gets and the -4 penalty that a light weapon is supposed to recieve, you get a +0 bonus to disarming an opponent.

Am I misunderstaning the rules of disarming in some way or is the rule that a light weapon gets a -4 penalty to disarming supposed to be ignored for sais or something?

[Claudius Maximus]

It's not ignored. The sai is pretty unimpressive in light of this.

[HunterOfJello]

wow. how lame.

[sofawall]

Indeed. Many things are like that, if you look closely enough.

[strider24seven]

Indeed. Just use a Flindbar. Or your fists. Or your head, since you're a monk.

[Keld Denar]

Disarm them with your BOOTY! Awwwww yea!

[strider24seven]

Or you could just sunder their arm.

[TheCountAlucard]

It's sorta like how Halflings are supposed to be good at jumping, so they get a +2 at it, except that having a move speed of 20 feet penalizes their Jump checks by 4, leaving them with an overall -2.

[arguskos]

You know, the intent is likely that these cases are meant to ignore the penalties that ruin them, cause otherwise, why bother having the bonuses? I'm chalking this stuff up to "WotC edits poorly". :smallwink:

[holywhippet]

It's not ignored. The sai is pretty unimpressive in light of this.

Sort of true. Keep in mind though, it's better at disarming than most light weapons and better at disarming light weapons than other light weapons.

Of course if you really wanted to be disarming opponents you'd probably want to be using a spiked chain.

[Eldariel]

Sort of true. Keep in mind though, it's better at disarming than most light weapons and better at disarming light weapons than other light weapons.

Of course if you really wanted to be disarming opponents you'd probably want to be using a spiked chain.

Or just Quarterstaff if you're doing what I think you're doing. By the way, how the hell isn't Spiked Chain a Monk-weapon? Monks' thing is basically "esoteric weapons based on mundane items", and that's precisely what Spiked Chain is.

[balistafreak]

On a related note, what 2-handed weapons have further bonuses to disarm?

[HunterOfJello]

On a related note, what 2-handed weapons have further bonuses to disarm?

heavy flail has +2, Ranseur has +2, Spetum has +2, Cahulaks has +2, the ever-popular Spike Chain has +2,



Dire Flail, Gyrspike, Lynxpaw and Drow Scorpion Chain are all double weapons that have +2, but I don't know if they count as "2handed" weapons in the same way. Besides the fact of a gyrspike being impossible to use in reality with a chain as short as the one in the A&EG. (Without constantly hurting yourself that is)

[arguskos]

What's the source on the Lynxpaw and Cahulaks?

[HunterOfJello]

probably one of the dragon magazines. i was looking at the equipment pdf from the d20 index over at Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)

*edit*

Lynxpaw is RotW p165 and the Cahulaks is from dragon magazine

[MCerberus]

Dire Flail, Gyrspike, Lynxpaw and Drow Scorpion Chain are all double weapons that have +2, but I don't know if they count as "2handed" weapons in the same way. Besides the fact of a gyrspike being impossible to use in reality with a chain as short as the one in the A&EG. (Without constantly hurting yourself that is)

Since disarms and sunders are standards and you can't make subsequent attacks, you aren't using them as double weapons, just 2handers.

[SethFahad]

I'm sorry but I can't see the reason why disarming with your arms is better than disarming with a sai... (except if you succeed, you end up holding your opponents weapon....but beware of Masterslaying enhancement!!! ouch!)

Still, sai is better than most light weapons, and 0 (zero) bonus is better than -4 penalty...

[HunterOfJello]

I'm sorry but I can't see the reason why disarming with your arms is better than disarming with a sai... (except if you succeed, you end up holding your opponents weapon....but beware of Masterslaying enhancement!!! ouch!)

Still, sai is better than most light weapons, and 0 (zero) bonus is better than -4 penalty...

Unarmed attacks that disarm end with the weapon in your hand. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Since disarms and sunders are standards and you can't make subsequent attacks, you aren't using them as double weapons, just 2handers.

Since when? Last I checked they're Attack Actions that can substitute for any melee attacks in any kind of attack run, be it full attack, standard action attack, charge or any such.

[SethFahad]

Unarmed attacks that disarm end with the weapon in your hand. :smalltongue:

Originally Posted by SethFahad

I'm sorry but I can't see the reason why disarming with your arms is better than disarming with a sai... (except if you succeed, you end up holding your opponents weapon....but beware of Masterslaying enhancement!!! ouch!)

Still, sai is better than most light weapons, and 0 (zero) bonus is better than -4 penalty...

...plus, picking an item (weapon) from the ground is a move action that provokes AoO...

[MCerberus]

Yes I was mistaken, I had it confused with Feint, which is why feint sucks :smalleek:. Still though, it's a 2hander unless you use both heads I'm pretty sure.

[Eldariel]

Yes I was mistaken, I had it confused with Feint, which is why feint sucks :smalleek:. Still though, it's a 2hander unless you use both heads I'm pretty sure.

That's all true (that is, feint sucks, double weapons can be used as two-handers when using only one end).

[SethFahad]

Still though, it's a 2hander unless you use both heads I'm pretty sure.

If you are an Ettin...yes... :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[arguskos]

Yes I was mistaken, I had it confused with Feint, which is why feint sucks :smalleek:. Still though, it's a 2hander unless you use both heads I'm pretty sure.
Yes, but Eld's point was that you can disarm/sunder/whatnot with either head while using it as a double weapon... which is awesome as a mental image, btw.

[MCerberus]

If you are an Ettin...yes... :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Ettins: Half a brain between two heads, and all of their dire maces deal less damage due to earwax buildup cushion.

[Draz74]

It's sorta like how Halflings are supposed to be good at jumping, so they get a +2 at it, except that having a move speed of 20 feet penalizes their Jump checks by 4, leaving them with an overall -2.

You forgot they also have a Strength penalty. :smalleek:

[Kaiyanwang]

OP: if you want to disarm with sai, take a look in Oriental Adventures.

There is Grappling Block, a feat allowing unarmed strike, sai and jitte disarms in the opponent turn, and without penalties within (3.0 rules) "two size larger than you".

If I'm not wrong, translated in 3.5, it means that you can disarm a frost giant greataxe with an human.

Not working 100% times, but hope it's something.

[Ossian]

Math wise, it does not make sense, yo are right. Still, better than using just a dagger (-4).


Fight wise, you are taking a sai to a fight with a 2 handed sword...It does not look like a good idea, whether you want to disarm the other guy or not. It might work with an exceptionally skilled (or lucky) sai user.

It does not look like a weapon meant to be used against 2 handed swords, and how the heck is it even supposed to disarm a guy with, say, a mace or a club? The offending weapon's shaft won't even fit between the sai "blade" and the L-shaped guard.

O.

[Runestar]

I'm sorry but I can't see the reason why disarming with your arms is better than disarming with a sai... (except if you succeed, you end up holding your opponents weapon....but beware of Masterslaying enhancement!!! ouch!)

Still, sai is better than most light weapons, and 0 (zero) bonus is better than -4 penalty...

Except that it is still not enough to make sais viable choice for disarm.

The sorry fact is that no disarmer is going to base his build around light weapons. He is probably going to wield a 2-handed weapons and try to increase his size.

Considering that the opportunity cost of disarming someone is an attack, I don't see anyone risking an attack for a disarm attempt using a sai, with a fairly low chance of success and all.

[ForzaFiori]

Math wise, it does not make sense, yo are right. Still, better than using just a dagger (-4).


Fight wise, you are taking a sai to a fight with a 2 handed sword...It does not look like a good idea, whether you want to disarm the other guy or not. It might work with an exceptionally skilled (or lucky) sai user.

It does not look like a weapon meant to be used against 2 handed swords, and how the heck is it even supposed to disarm a guy with, say, a mace or a club? The offending weapon's shaft won't even fit between the sai "blade" and the L-shaped guard.

O.

The shaft of a mace or club actually would fit in the gap of a sai. At least in real life. I have a pair from when I took Goju-ryu. They are exceptionally good for disarming, and their main use originally was to disarm samurai of katanas and naganatis. On a full sized sai, the gap between the "blade" and the guard is probably 3 or 3.5 inches (obviously, it changes with the length of the sai. Mine are 18in. long, with about a 3in. gap.) The gap is large enough to easily trap a staff or sword, and should be more than capable of catching a mace or the close end of a club. Then you simply pull backwards, and the guard catches the wider area. It is actually easier to do than the wrapping move that would be needed to do in order to disarm with a chain or flail.

[Person_Man]

As strider mentioned, the ideal weapon to disarm with is the Flindbar from MMIII. It's a one handed weapon (that you can also use two handed) that grants +2 to Disarm, and when you threaten a crit (19-20 or 17-20 with any Keen/Impact effect) you get a free Disarm attempt before you roll to confirm the crit. Thus you can just attack normally with it, and you'll still generate free Disarm attempts, without having to waste an action. Alternatively (or in addition) you can take the Snatch Weapon (http://www.realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Snatch_Weapon,all) feat, which gives you a free attack after you Disarm your enemy. Anyone good at Trip or Grapple attempts tends to be good at Disarm attempts as well - Psychic Warrior, Marshal, Factotum, Totemist, Druid, Cleric, etc. Also, anything that Stuns your enemy (like Stunning Fist) makes them drop their weapon.

Having said that, I highly suggest that you do not invest any resources in optimizing your ability to Disarm. Tons of enemies don't use weapons. Tons of enemies that use weapons carry backup weapons. And after you Disarm the first enemy and smack him with his own weapon (which is probably less effective then your magic weapon), you have to drop it if you want to Disarm a different enemy (letting unarmed enemies have a chance to pick it up), or waste a Move Action to Sheath it. So unless you have a lot of 1 on 1 arena combat where each person is only allowed one or two weapons, just avoid it.

[Beowulf DW]

I'd make the arguement that sai are meant to ignore the penalty. Let's not forget that in real life sai were designed to disarm or even break katanas, which are conventionally two-handed weapons. I'd also make the arguement that if a character is using two sai, that the dual-wielding penalty should be ignored, because sai are supposed to be used in pairs.

[Sinfire Titan]

Except that it is still not enough to make sais viable choice for disarm.

The sorry fact is that no disarmer is going to base his build around light weapons. He is probably going to wield a 2-handed weapons and try to increase his size.

Considering that the opportunity cost of disarming someone is an attack, I don't see anyone risking an attack for a disarm attempt using a sai, with a fairly low chance of success and all.

Disarming is something you do with your lowest Iterative attack. Or the free one from Improved Trip, if you aren't trying to kill them. But if you aren't trying to kill them, you aren't a true adventurer. It's easier to interrogate corpses, after all.

[balistafreak]

But if you aren't trying to kill them, you aren't a true adventurer. It's easier to interrogate corpses, after all.

That is both very sad and very true. Oh, magic, why must you violate common sense so much? :smalltongue:

[MCerberus]

That is both very sad and very true. Oh, magic, why must you violate common sense so much? :smalltongue:

I believe that's magic's stated purpose. One of the bad things about 3.x is that there's a spell for everything, so just keep murdering.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's sorta like how Halflings are supposed to be good at jumping, so they get a +2 at it, except that having a move speed of 20 feet penalizes their Jump checks by 4, leaving them with an overall -2.

It's actually a -6 penalty for a speed of 20 feet.

[true_shinken]

And after you Disarm the first enemy and smack him with his own weapon (which is probably less effective then your magic weapon), you have to drop it if you want to Disarm a different enemy (letting unarmed enemies have a chance to pick it up), or waste a Move Action to Sheath it. So unless you have a lot of 1 on 1 arena combat where each person is only allowed one or two weapons, just avoid it.
I actually used an NPC focused on disarming with the Snatch Weapon feat that disarmed a member of the party and then proceeded to throw the acquired weapon. Throw Anything helps, though it ain't necessary. Not optimal, but pretty cool!

[balistafreak]

I actually used an NPC focused on disarming with the Snatch Weapon feat that disarmed a member of the party and then proceeded to throw the acquired weapon. Throw Anything helps, though it ain't necessary. Not optimal, but pretty cool!

Probably not optimal.

DM: The assassin disarms you of your greataxe and takes it into his hands!

Barbarian: The swine! I rage and try to punch him in the face!

DM: Without the +5 on your axe, you miss completely! On his own action, he throws the greataxe at you into your skull for a critical hit!

Barbarian: Hey, dude?

DM: What?

Barbarian: On my turn, I quick-draw my greataxe from my skull and full-attack the wanker in an angry furious rage.

DM: ... well, it was cool while it lasted.

[Starbuck_II]

Probably not optimal.

DM: The assassin disarms you of your greataxe and takes it into his hands!

Barbarian: The swine! I rage and try to punch him in the face!

DM: Without the +5 on your axe, you miss completely! On his own action, he throws the battleaxe at you into your skull for a critical hit!

Barbarian: Hey, dude?

DM: What?

Barbarian: On my turn, I quick-draw the battleaxe from my skull and full-attack the wanker in an angry furious rage.

DM: ... well, it was cool while it lasted.

Did you just switch between battleaxe/greataxe on purpose?

[balistafreak]

Did you just switch between battleaxe/greataxe on purpose?

No, my short-term memory just sucks. :smallannoyed:

Fixed.

[Danin]

Unless he uses his lowest attack to hurl the axe, say, off a bridge, out a window, or into a pool of lava.

On a side note, I now know what I'm going to use on my party.

Disarm is a pretty unimpressive option, but I do quite enjoy it. I'm still choked that small creatures get a further -4. There went my dream of having a disarm focused halfling using light weapons...

[Runestar]

Disarming is something you do with your lowest Iterative attack.

Disarm involves opposed attack rolls. Is reserving your crappiest attack (in terms of bab) such a good idea? Trip, I can understand (since it is independent of bab) though ideally, you want them prone on your first attack so the rest can benefit from that +4 to-hit...:smallyuk: