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View Full Version : The Assassin [3.5]



Temotei
2010-04-12, 09:03 PM
This thread works just like the duelist and shadowdancer threads; name your improvements to the assassin, house rules, etc.

Greymane
2010-04-13, 01:10 AM
I actually like the Assassin for the most part. Mostly the spells, which can come in very hand with the right splat book access.

The biggest thing I'd change is the length of time it takes to use a Death Attack, as it's far too long, and maybe a clarification on exactly what else you can be doing while 'observing' your future target.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 01:23 AM
I just get rid of Death Attack outright, and use Ambush feats to replace it. The most I would change would be their spells, giving them at least Seul Arcanamach casting.

Hawk7915
2010-04-13, 01:26 AM
We've only had a few people use Assassin, and they've been fine with Splatbook spells (they learn freackin' Wraithstrike!?!?!). The only change is that we usually "simplify" skill lists and roll hide and move silently into "stealth", which means the class is incredibly easy to qualify for.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-13, 01:31 AM
The Assassin is pretty good as is, no need for improvements.

Ashram
2010-04-13, 01:38 AM
A lot of people in my group who play Pathfinder approve of the changes Paizo did to the assassin (Basically, remove all spellcasting and give them awful "death-based" abilities until 10th level, upon which they get the ability to DA once a day without spending the three-round study time).

Some interesting fluff one DM of mine made up to justify assassins having spells is that an assassin is not JUST someone who kills for money. You generally have to be in an assassin's guild to be an actual assassin with class levels, and you don't just learn how to poke people in just the right spot to kill them or learn how to not derp poison yourself. The reason assassin requires you to be evil (Aside from the fact that you kill anyone if the price is right) is that you learn magic to help you kill faster and easier; essentially dark arts.

QuantumSteve
2010-04-13, 02:08 AM
A lot of people in my group who play Pathfinder approve of the changes Paizo did to the assassin (Basically, remove all spellcasting and give them awful "death-based" abilities until 10th level, upon which they get the ability to DA once a day without spending the three-round study time).

Some interesting fluff one DM of mine made up to justify assassins having spells is that an assassin is not JUST someone who kills for money. You generally have to be in an assassin's guild to be an actual assassin with class levels, and you don't just learn how to poke people in just the right spot to kill them or learn how to not derp poison yourself. The reason assassin requires you to be evil (Aside from the fact that you kill anyone if the price is right) is that you learn magic to help you kill faster and easier; essentially dark arts.

While I'm all for a spelless Assassin, (spells are for wizards) the Pathfinder Assassin just plain sucks. They took away her spell casting, which was pretty decent, and gave her basically nothing. She can kill things deader? Come on!

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-13, 02:50 AM
I use avenger (yes, THAT avenger) and assassin as they are.

with moar splatbooks, assassin is nice.. you only have to understand that death attack is one of your situational way to dispatch people.

Once you catch it, the game starts.

Cicciograna
2010-04-13, 03:23 AM
I'd drop the alignment prerequisite and the "special" prerequisite (the random killing): I can absolutely see a Champion of Good that subtly infiltrates a temple to an Evil god to surgically remove the High Priest and escape in the night.

Gorbash
2010-04-13, 04:23 AM
While I'm all for a spelless Assassin, (spells are for wizards) the Pathfinder Assassin just plain sucks. They took away her spell casting, which was pretty decent, and gave her basically nothing. She can kill things deader? Come on!

Thing about that Angel of Death ability (killed things can be brought back only with True Resurrection) is that it's completely useless against NPCs. If it's a mundane NPC, no one would even bother with bringing them back to life (so the ability means nothing) and if it's an important NPC that needs to be resurrected, then OF COURSE that one of their lackeys will have True Rez (once again the ability means nothing). Used against PCs, however... Is not a bad idea.

Total screw up, Paizo.

Nero24200
2010-04-13, 04:38 AM
Well, I'd do two things...

1. Expand the spell list a little. Grant it spells that can overcome certain spells (like a new spell to overcome Alarm for instance). I'd also probably make it a caster in the same sense as a warmage or beguiler (I.E, can cast any spell on his/her list spontainiously).

2. Do something with death attack. As it stands, it's a horrendous ability. Usally, I find I'm pretty good at being able to use class features IG, even if they are hard to pull off, but this one was the worst. I played an Assassin once, and was only able to ever pull a death attack off once....but even then, we were playing a little loose with the definition of "observing for 3 rounds" and the target made the save easily.

I'd probably just make it that if an assassin succesfully sneak attacks someone, he bestows a Con penalty unless a save is passed (note, a penalty, rather than damage, since Con damage with every sneak attack would add up far too quickly). Then increase the penalty with more assassin levels.

Saph
2010-04-13, 04:42 AM
Assassin's really not bad. The spellcasting is the equivalent of getting something like 8 levels in a spontaneous full casting class for free (and some of the Spell Compendium stuff they get is very nice). And Death Attack is fine as long as you remember that you don't expect it to work most of the time. It's just an additional chance to drop your opponent - even if it fails, you still do Sneak Attack damage, no big deal.

Ernir
2010-04-13, 01:18 PM
Expand it to 15 levels to avoid Level 16 Syndrome. Or better yet, base the Death Attack DC on the character level instead of the class level, and give some actual Death Attack related class features to have some incentive to stay in the class. Because the Assassin getting one and only one death-related ability, ever, and that at first level... kind of stinks.

Give it full spell-list access, like the Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro. Or maybe just full-list prepared casting, if the spell list is expanded a bit (as the SpC actually does...).

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-13, 01:20 PM
Expand it to 15 levels to avoid Level 16 Syndrome. Or better yet, base the Death Attack DC on the character level instead of the class level, and give some actual Death Attack related class features to have some incentive to stay in the class. Because the Assassin getting one and only one death-related ability, ever, and that at first level... kind of stinks.

Give it full spell-list access, like the Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro. Or maybe just full-list prepared casting, if the spell list is expanded a bit (as the SpC actually does...).

I like this overall personally, though we have an Assassin with a rule that the DC is CL+damage dealt. She uses a pair of steel fans

Il_Vec
2010-04-13, 01:34 PM
I was playing with an Assassin until he recently passed away eaten by a Wyvern. He had 3 major problems: He wasn't able to properly fight anything immune to criticals; The Death Attack DC is simply too low and... When he actually killed something with the Death Attack, the DM always felt the encounter was "easy" and managed to make it longer and harder. I had to seriously be invisible 24/7.

Fixing it could have somethig to do with raising the DC and usability of Death Attack and lowering the overall effect (Doesn't need to kill one-shot, could save-or-suck). I actually think losing the Sneak Attack, changing BAB to full and adding Int to damage (Yes, make him more like Duelist, except he already uses Int for Spells and Death Attack and skills) would really help.

Flickerdart
2010-04-13, 01:45 PM
The Assassin is honestly more like an NPC class/archetype, acting along before it jump out and ganks PCs (with the paralysis, of course, don't want to be mean). It actually meshes pretty well with Ninja, since Ninja sucks as a team player too. To make it a good PC class, you'd have to do a serious overhaul, because you'd be changing its role to "break down the door and stand on the other side of the Fighter" for the typical party.

An effective Assassin, thus, would be able to sneak ahead of the party, assess the situation, do something beneficial for his party and call them in. This will involve Battlefield Control (Invisible Still Grease, for example, or setting up traps, or poisoning people without them noticing, or traps that don't suck, etc), being able to do something in combat while hidden (perhaps the target of the Death Attack, if it's kept, is Shaken, then Frightened, then Panicked at the Assassin's option) and make poisons effective (an Animal Companion with venom, for example).

...now I want to homebrew this. Excuse me.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-13, 02:01 PM
I was playing with an Assassin until he recently passed away eaten by a Wyvern. He had 3 major problems: He wasn't able to properly fight anything immune to criticals; The Death Attack DC is simply too low and... When he actually killed something with the Death Attack, the DM always felt the encounter was "easy" and managed to make it longer and harder. I had to seriously be invisible 24/7.


That seems more a DM issue than a class issue.
You shopuld have talked to DM before taking class:
"Are you alright with death attack?"
"If no, can I exchange it for some other ability equivalent in power? I'd rather not be punished for having good class features."

I'd ask for Factotum's inspiration ability (and ability similar to Cunning Insight). As free action, Inspiration points spent gives you Int mod to hit/dam/save check for 1 rd.
Since Inspiration points are returned at beginning of every encounter: you can spend them freely in a battle.

Telonius
2010-04-13, 02:07 PM
I'd cross out the word "melee" in the Death Attack description. I see no reason they shouldn't be able to get a death attack with a bow. Otherwise it's good.

Temotei
2010-04-13, 03:35 PM
The Assassin is honestly more like an NPC class/archetype, acting along before it jump out and ganks PCs (with the paralysis, of course, don't want to be mean). It actually meshes pretty well with Ninja, since Ninja sucks as a team player too. To make it a good PC class, you'd have to do a serious overhaul, because you'd be changing its role to "break down the door and stand on the other side of the Fighter" for the typical party.

An effective Assassin, thus, would be able to sneak ahead of the party, assess the situation, do something beneficial for his party and call them in. This will involve Battlefield Control (Invisible Still Grease, for example, or setting up traps, or poisoning people without them noticing, or traps that don't suck, etc), being able to do something in combat while hidden (perhaps the target of the Death Attack, if it's kept, is Shaken, then Frightened, then Panicked at the Assassin's option) and make poisons effective (an Animal Companion with venom, for example).

...now I want to homebrew this. Excuse me.

Do it. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-04-13, 04:17 PM
Assassin's good as long as you don't bother wasting time, or worse, gold/feats, on Death Attack. It get some excellent spells and progresses sneak attack, but loses out on Rogue special abilities (which, except for Improved Evasion, aren't a huge loss).

Optimator
2010-04-13, 05:01 PM
Everything is fine but Death Attack, I'd say.