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Grifthin
2010-04-13, 10:25 AM
Can someone please explain to me how Knowledge Devotion and Cloistered Cleric interact/Break the game.

A internet cookie to whomever helps :smallwink:

FishAreWet
2010-04-13, 10:26 AM
It doesn't break the game at all. Cloistered Cleric grants the Knowledge Domain and Complete Champion lets you trade the domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat. Which is a strong but simple feat. At best it gives +5 to attack and damage, but only if you can make a DC 36 knowledge check. At low levels it's a decent +1/+2 though.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 10:28 AM
Cloistered Cleric gives you Knowledge Domain for free, better skill points, and all Knowledge skills as class skills. It costs you your BAB and Fort save, but both of those don't matter when you cast Divine Power.


Knowledge Domain can be swapped for the Devotion feat thanks to CC giving Clerics that particular ACF. The domain isn't that powerful for a Cleric, but the Devotion feat is solid gold if you are a DMM: Persist Cleric.

Grifthin
2010-04-13, 10:29 AM
Anything else ?

FMArthur
2010-04-13, 10:35 AM
That's all it does. You can get a good attack bonus quickly using Knowledge Devotion with any character that has Knowledges as class skills and at least 6 skill points every level to spare for pumping the specific Knowledges that Knowledge Devotion relies on.

Cloistered Cleric might be the only one to get it with full BAB, thanks to Divine Power.

Riffington
2010-04-13, 10:56 AM
The only part of this that "breaks the game" is persisting Divine Power.

If you skip that part, it's all reasonable and good.
Well, a minor concern: if you trade away the Knowledge Domain, the Cloistered Cleric's skill list is "Decipher Script, Speak Language"

Gametime
2010-04-13, 11:00 AM
Actually trading the domain for the feat, in the case of the Cloistered Cleric, loses most of the Knowledges as class skills, however.

Whether that leaves them with the standard Cleric Knowledges or no Knowledges at all isn't exactly clear, but you're better off just keeping the domain if you really want to maximize Knowledge Devotion.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 11:02 AM
Actually trading the domain for the feat, in the case of the Cloistered Cleric, loses most of the Knowledges as class skills, however.

Whether that leaves them with the standard Cleric Knowledges or no Knowledges at all isn't exactly clear, but you're better off just keeping the domain if you really want to maximize Knowledge Devotion.

Cloistered Cleric has all Knowledges as class skills without the domain.

Escheton
2010-04-13, 11:02 AM
There is already a cleric type class that does this.
The archivist
It's an int based divine caster that works like a wizard with spellbooks and all that. With a build in knowledge devotion that applys to the whole party.

FishAreWet
2010-04-13, 11:03 AM
Cloistered Cleric might be the only one to get it with full BAB, thanks to Divine Power.
...anyone can take Knowledge Devotion. It's just a feat.

Zovc
2010-04-13, 11:09 AM
...anyone can take Knowledge Devotion. It's just a feat.

Right, but Cloistered Clerics get a third domain free. That's the Knowledge domain. You can trade a domain for its devotion feat... thus giving you a 'free' feat over every other (non-cloistered) cleric and non-cleric.

Optimystik
2010-04-13, 11:12 AM
...anyone can take Knowledge Devotion. It's just a feat.

You need to worship a deity who offers that domain even if you aren't a cleric, so it's not exactly "anyone."

And of course, clerics get them the easiest since you can just trade in a domain.

FishAreWet
2010-04-13, 11:22 AM
And anyone can worship someone with the Knowledge domain. :smallsigh:

I was responding the the statement that I quoted. Nothing else.

Otodetu
2010-04-13, 11:24 AM
Being a regular cleric and trading away the domain trades away the knowledge skills to, no?

FishAreWet
2010-04-13, 11:29 AM
Being a regular cleric and trading away the domain trades away the knowledge skills to, no?

Yes. Making it less useful than many think.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-13, 11:31 AM
And anyone can worship someone with the Knowledge domain. :smallsigh:

I was responding the the statement that I quoted. Nothing else.

Since Gods are a fluff element it depends on your DM actually. I wouldn't let a Barbarian with an Int of 4 worship Boccob. So not anyone specifically.

arguskos
2010-04-13, 11:34 AM
Since Gods are a fluff element it depends on your DM actually. I wouldn't let a Barbarian with an Int of 4 worship Boccob. So not anyone specifically.
He could respect Boccob's uncaring nature, or the fact that he knows all the best ways to hurt stuff. Not totally unreasonable.

2xMachina
2010-04-13, 11:35 AM
Inquisitor 1 gets Inquisition Domain. Tradable for Knowledge Devotion too.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-13, 11:40 AM
Cloistered Cleric has all Knowledges as class skills without the domain.
Better try reading that again.
Class Skills: The cloistered clericís class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below).
...
In addition to any domains selected from his deityís list, a cloistered cleric automatically gains Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#knowledgeDomain) as a bonus domain
The Knowledge domain is what gives all Knowledge skills.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-13, 11:41 AM
He could respect Boccob's uncaring nature, or the fact that he knows all the best ways to hurt stuff. Not totally unreasonable.

Yeah...well....you smell like paper >:P

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-13, 11:42 AM
Since Gods are a fluff element it depends on your DM actually. I wouldn't let a Barbarian with an Int of 4 worship Boccob. So not anyone specifically.

However, depending on the setting, there could be any number of combinations of domains. Tyr, for example has the Knowledge domain and despite being fairly Lawful, he's a hard hitting type of god, so he could have a barbarian follower or two who just so happens to be dumb as the sword he swings.

arguskos
2010-04-13, 11:42 AM
Yeah...well....you smell like paper >:P
...

In the immortal words of da Orkz, "WOTS ALL DIS DEN?" :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 11:45 AM
He could respect Boccob's uncaring nature, or the fact that he knows all the best ways to hurt stuff. Not totally unreasonable.

Or just worship, you know, Seterous and get everything.

arguskos
2010-04-13, 11:47 AM
Or just worship, you know, Seterous and get everything.
Yes, but that's just cheap. :smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-04-13, 11:50 AM
He could respect Boccob's uncaring nature, or the fact that he knows all the best ways to hurt stuff. Not totally unreasonable.

"Nodding to a god in passing" isn't quite on the level of "worship."


Or just worship, you know, Seterous and get everything.

If your DM allows him, he might as well allow custom ideals and do away with pantheons entirely.

arguskos
2010-04-13, 11:51 AM
"Nodding to a god in passing" isn't quite on the level of "worship."
Eh? If he's your patron, it works. Don't look at me, I just gave justifications for possible worship here. The Barbarian could believe the best way to honor Boccob is to hurt things, in homage to He Who Knows Everything About Hurting Folk. Given that Boccob has made it clear he doesn't CARE how folks worship him, it's good. :smallwink:

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 11:51 AM
Yes, but that's just cheap. :smalltongue:

I don't consider a Soul cheap. More of a long-term practical investment.

Optimystik
2010-04-13, 11:56 AM
Eh? If he's your patron, it works. Don't look at me, I just gave justifications for possible worship here. The Barbarian could believe the best way to honor Boccob is to hurt things, in homage to He Who Knows Everything About Hurting Folk. Given that Boccob has made it clear he doesn't CARE how folks worship him, it's good. :smallwink:

Actually, if you want Knowledge + hurting things, you should probably go with Oghma. His clerics debate by wrestling.

Anyway, my point was the same as K_B's - it's up to DM approval.


Being a regular cleric and trading away the domain trades away the knowledge skills to, no?

That's easy to get around - just don't take it at level 1. Once a class skill, always a class skill.

arguskos
2010-04-13, 12:00 PM
Actually, if you want Knowledge + hurting things, you should probably go with Oghma. His clerics debate by wrestling.

Anyway, my point was the same as K_B's - it's up to DM approval.
That's cause Oghma is awesome. He's such a great deity. Actually, all the Faerunian gods are pretty awesome. I mean, there's an Orc PANTHEON (Yurtrus forever!!).

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-13, 12:06 PM
Actually, if you want Knowledge + hurting things, you should probably go with Oghma. His clerics debate by wrestling....

Wuh?? Winner = right kind of thing? Love it.

Escheton
2010-04-14, 11:02 AM
Wuh?? Winner = right kind of thing? Love it.

well, they are all about the knowledge, so it makes sense that in an argument they just go straight to measuring, if you know what I mean.

jiriku
2010-04-14, 12:50 PM
Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1 is probably ideal. Gets you the skill points to max the knowledge skills, gets you the feat at level 4. I've used that build, it works great. Slap on something like a DMM persisted ice axe at level 5 and you don't even need divine power.