PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Mechanics wise does a game balance if everyone has the same LA and DM drops it?



Pika...
2010-04-13, 10:35 AM
Just wondering, since I have always loved the idea of a monstrous races only campaigning. Either running it, or playing in one (which I know I will never get the chance...). :smallsmile:

Yukitsu
2010-04-13, 10:37 AM
Yes, so long as their ECl balances out to the same at the end.

It does tend to favour some builds more than others, but thankfully, melee types get more out of templates than casters usually.

Killer Angel
2010-04-13, 10:38 AM
You just had to keep in mind that (for the CR of the enemies) the monstrous PCs are more powerful than their hypothetical non-monstrous counterpart.

JeenLeen
2010-04-13, 10:39 AM
The DM should still use CR appropriate to the power of the party (no Lv. 1 minotaurs going after starter kobolds, for example), but as far as the party goes, it shouldn't add anything, I'd think.

However, the Racial Hit Die and Level Adjustment aren't always equal. Some +1 LA aren't nearly as good as others. So balance might not be obtained depending on what templates or races are chosen, just like balance isn't maintained same-level human fighters and clerics/wizards/druids.

Don't know if WBL should be compensated or not. You'd be fighting monsters that assume more magical equipment...

awa
2010-04-13, 10:41 AM
like every thing it depends on the creature/template not all monstrous races/ templates are created equal. But in general like has already been mentioned it will help physical characters more then casters and it typically wont help druids much at all.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 10:55 AM
like every thing it depends on the creature/template not all monstrous races/ templates are created equal. But in general like has already been mentioned it will help physical characters more then casters and it typically wont help druids much at all.

Right. It isn't going to do much good if one player is playing a Dragonic Hobgoblin Bard while another is playing a Phrenic Klashtar Psion, as the two characters would be on different levels in terms of power gained from the LA.

Vortling
2010-04-13, 11:07 AM
like every thing it depends on the creature/template not all monstrous races/ templates are created equal. But in general like has already been mentioned it will help physical characters more then casters and it typically wont help druids much at all.

This. Entirely this. I'm running something similar to what the OP is suggesting now (Savage Species monster progressions on one side of gestalt) and there's definitely going to be some rebuilding of characters. I'd advise you to play for a few levels and see how things shake out, then look at rebuilding if you have people at drastically different power levels.

On the other hand this makes me wish there was a tier list for RHD and LA. :smallbiggrin:

shadow_archmagi
2010-04-13, 11:12 AM
So, Racial Hit Die are like mandatory levels, while LA is like imaginary levels, right?

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 11:15 AM
So, Racial Hit Die are like mandatory levels, while LA is like imaginary levels, right?

Right. Well, RHD are more like uber-Dead Levels than anything. Or NPC levels.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-13, 11:27 AM
Right. Well, RHD are more like uber-Dead Levels than anything. Or NPC levels.

Realy?
LA is more like super dead levels atleast RHD gives you some hp /saves/skills/etc . may not be great for some but others its not bad.. like dragon hd or outsider hd.

unre9istered
2010-04-13, 11:44 AM
Most LA can be bought off, though. Racial HD can't be.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-13, 11:47 AM
Most LA can be bought off, though. Racial HD can't be.

if you use that variant rule

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 11:48 AM
Realy?
LA is more like super dead levels atleast RHD gives you some hp /saves/skills/etc . may not be great for some but others its not bad.. like dragon hd or outsider hd.

The thing is, the definition of a Dead Level in DnD is a level where all you get are saves, BAB, skill points, and HP (sometimes spells/day, which makes the Cleric and Sorcerer 19 dead levels). RHD do just that: Advance your stats but no class features.

LA is worse by a mile. At least RHD grant Initiator levels. It takes a lot to redeem a character who cannot buy-off a +3 or higher LA.

Frosty
2010-04-13, 11:53 AM
Some RHD are quite decent...like Outsider or Dragon RHD.

Mastikator
2010-04-13, 11:54 AM
As said previously, mobs will be very underpowered unless you drop their CR equally.

You could also drop everyone's LA by the smallest LA. Say, if two are using LA +2 and one LA +3, you drop by 2, so two have LA +0 and one LA +1.
Another thing is, count racial hit die as half level, rounded down. So they won't be as big penalty.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 12:03 PM
Some RHD are quite decent...like Outsider or Dragon RHD.

Even given Dragon or Outsider HD, I wouldn't want that for more than 3 levels of my build even if I were a Martial Adept. The skills and saves are nice, but class features outweigh those considerably.

Flickerdart
2010-04-13, 12:08 PM
Dragon and Outsider are very sexy when Gestalted with a real class, though.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-13, 12:34 PM
Only certain real classes though. If you've already got a full BAB and a d8+ HD, the RHD become a lot less attractive. For a, say, Fighter or Barbarian, even Monk is technically better than Dragon HD. As a Cleric, you've already got good Fort/Will, so Rogue levels might be a better gestalt - you don't get full BAB, but you still get your good Reflex save, more skill points, and actual class features.

Dragon/Outsider HD on a Wizard, comparatively, is excellent...but that's like taking a block of hard cheese and dipping it in fondue.

Pika...
2010-04-13, 01:16 PM
if you use that variant rule

Nope. :smallbiggrin:

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-13, 01:18 PM
I considered an "All Dragon" Campaign where every1 picked a dragon, they all started as young and were survivors of an Undead Apocolypse

Kylarra
2010-04-13, 01:21 PM
I think it's best to just use gestalt for something like this.

Pika...
2010-04-13, 01:22 PM
Dragon/Outsider HD on a Wizard, comparatively, is excellent...but that's like taking a block of hard cheese and dipping it in fondue.

Hence why I do not allow either as player races in my cosmology (except in situations like these probably).




I considered an "All Dragon" Campaign where every1 picked a dragon, they all started as young and were survivors of an Undead Apocolypse

I have wanted to run the Islands of Io setting for SO long (actually play in it, but like that will EVER happen with another DM. :smallfrown:).



I think it's best to just use gestalt for something like this.

I really do not like the idea of gestalt.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 01:27 PM
I really do not like the idea of gestalt.

Remind me again what you find wrong with it.

Pika...
2010-04-13, 07:01 PM
Remind me again what you find wrong with it.

Reminds me of the powergamer mentality for some reason, and powergamers I have known seem attracted to it.

Nothing against powergamers, just not my thing.

Godskook
2010-04-13, 07:06 PM
Reminds me of the powergamer mentality for some reason, and powergamers I have known seem attracted to it.

Nothing against powergamers, just not my thing.

And dropping LA doesn't remind you of powergamers???

SilverStar
2010-04-13, 07:10 PM
I've done it, and it worked out fine.

LA, in my mind, balances a PC against another PC. As long as one takes the party's abilities into account when designing challenges, I see no reason why you cannot eliminate the level adjustment when everyone's is the same.

Flickerdart
2010-04-13, 07:26 PM
Reminds me of the powergamer mentality for some reason, and powergamers I have known seem attracted to it.

Nothing against powergamers, just not my thing.
Yes, gestalt is a high-powered alternative, and UA designates it as such. But saying that gestalt is too power-gamey is like saying that level 20 is too power-gamey, or that full BAB is...it's a game mechanic that everyone gets equally. It isn't like some people get gestalted and some don't because they didn't take feat X.

Draxar
2010-04-13, 08:33 PM
The idea should work, you just need to keep an eye out for any templates or creatures that have overly low LA compared to others, and be aware that, just like with normal characters, a poor choice can make stuff much less powerful.


I'm running something similar to what the OP is suggesting now (Savage Species monster progressions on one side of gestalt)

Depending on how you're doing that, I could see that significantly favouring creatures with a high LA/ low number of HD over the reverse – if you've got a pair of creatures, one with 3 racial HD, +5 LA, another with 6 racial HD, +2 LA, then the former will gain 5 HD (plus BAB, and saves) from gestalting that, the other will gain 2. You may have already seen this and balanced for it, but if not it seems a potentially complicating factor.

JaronK
2010-04-13, 08:47 PM
It works very well if everyone is the same race or similar ones. If not, the fact that some templates/races are VASTLY more powerful than others will make problems. There's only a few powerful LA 0 races (Kobolds with Dragonwrought, for example) but the differences aren't much. But the difference between a Half Dragon Orc and a Half Minotaur Lolth Touched Mineral Warrior Orc are incredible.

The bit about casters is nice though... melees do a lot better early on.

JaronK

AslanCross
2010-04-13, 08:51 PM
In theory. But then there's races that are powerful for their LA and weak for their LA, so even if LA is dropped, they might not necessarily be even.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-13, 10:02 PM
And dropping LA doesn't remind you of powergamers???

Agreed. LA removal encourages stat boosting, and costs the PCs nothing in opportunity costs. Gestalt changes the way your players look at character generation by adding another dimension to their class selection, and forces them to spread their feats/skills/ability scores/magic items over two classes. And they need to worry about the action economy a lot more than they usually do.

Pika...
2010-04-14, 09:19 AM
And dropping LA doesn't remind you of powergamers???

No. It's more of an "exotic" or unusual party/campaign feel I am trying to achieve. Basically I want the player's to experience the monster's/monstrous races side of the story, and their point of view.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-14, 09:31 AM
No. It's more of an "exotic" or unusual party/campaign feel I am trying to achieve. Basically I want the player's to experience the monster's/monstrous races side of the story, and their point of view.

You can just Gestalt their Racial HD/LA for that effect. One side Monster levels, the other nothing but classes.

Ashiel
2010-04-14, 12:36 PM
You can just Gestalt their Racial HD/LA for that effect. One side Monster levels, the other nothing but classes.

I don't really play Gestalt often, but this would be a wonderful way to do it in a gestalt game. :smallsmile:

Indon
2010-04-14, 01:55 PM
You can just Gestalt their Racial HD/LA for that effect. One side Monster levels, the other nothing but classes.

One advantage being that high-RHD races end up with a lot more options - a Troll spellcaster, even an unusually wise or intelligent one, normally is pretty well doomed ECL wise due to not only their high LA but their high RHD.

A disadvantage being that gestalt is a fairly mechanically complicated variant, something that all us veteran players may forget at times.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-14, 01:56 PM
I don't really play Gestalt often, but this would be a wonderful way to do it in a gestalt game. :smallsmile:

The problem is finding 4-8 Small-Large sized creatures with an ECL of 20 (or enough Templates that can be legally applied to the same base creature). Lycanthropy seems to be the best bet, as do several outsiders. Dragons are a natural option for this. Here's a quick list of just the pure monster races (not going into what templates can be used, just how much is needed):

Fire Giant: 15 HD, +4 LA. Needs: LA +1 template.
Frost Giant: 14 HD, +4 LA. Needs: LA +2 template.
Hill Giant: 12 HD, +4 LA. Needs: LA +4 template.
Elder Stone Giant: 14 HD, +6 LA.
Zelekhut: 8 HD, +7 LA. Needs: LA +5 template (difficulty: Construct typing).
Rakshasa: 7 HD, +7 LA. Needs: LA +6 template.
Juvenile Black Dragon: 13 HD, +4 LA. Needs: LA +3 template.
Young Blue Dragon: 12 HD, +5 LA. Needs: LA +3 template.
Juvenile Green Dragon: 14 HD, +6 LA.
Young Red Dragon: 13 HD, +6 LA. Needs: LA +1 template.
Juvenile White Dragon: 12 HD, +5 LA. Needs: LA +3 template.
Juvenile Brass Dragon: 13 HD, +4 LA. Needs: LA +3 template.
Young Brass Dragon: 12 HD, +6 LA. Needs: LA +2 template.
Juvenile Copper Dragon: 14 HD, +4 LA. Needs: LA +2 template.
Young Gold Dragon: 14 HD, +6 LA.
Young Silver Dragon: 13 HD, +5 LA. Needs: LA +2 template.
Astral Deva: 12 HD, +8 LA.
Hound Archon: 6 HD, +5 LA. Needs: LA +9 template.
Trumpet Archon: 12 HD, +8 LA.
Hezrou: 10 HD, +9 LA. Needs: LA +1 template.
Succubus: 6 HD, +6 LA. Needs: LA +8 template.
Vrock: 10 HD, +8 LA. Needs: LA +2 template.
Barbazu: 6 HD, +6 LA. Needs: LA +8 template.
Kyton: 8 HD, +6 LA. Needs: LA +6 template.
Erinyes: 9 HD, +7 LA. Needs: LA +4 template.